Episode 1: Why is this book so weird?

Hey, welcome to Revelation. It's not Hey, welcome to Revelation. It's not what you think. I'm Liz. what you think. I'm Liz. what you think. I'm Liz. >> And I'm Mario. And hey, if the word >> And I'm Mario. And hey, if the word >> And I'm Mario. And hey, if the word Revelation makes you think of beasts and Revelation makes you think of beasts and Revelation makes you think of beasts and timelines and the end of times and it timelines and the end of times and it timelines and the end of times and it makes you maybe a little anxious, I makes you maybe a little anxious, I makes you maybe a little anxious, I think you're in the right place. think you're in the right place. think you're in the right place. >> Because most people treat this book like >> Because most people treat this book like >> Because most people treat this book like a puzzle to solve before it's too late a puzzle to solve before it's too late a puzzle to solve before it's too late and there's not a shortage of people and there's not a shortage of people and there's not a shortage of people telling us what's to come. telling us what's to come. telling us what's to come. >> But what if the apocalypse is not >> But what if the apocalypse is not >> But what if the apocalypse is not actually about the end of times or the actually about the end of times or the actually about the end of times or the end of the world, but it's more about end of the world, but it's more about end of the world, but it's more about how we choose to live our lives today? how we choose to live our lives today? how we choose to live our lives today? >> That's good. And so that's what this >> That's good. And so that's what this >> That's good. And so that's what this conversation is all about and we're not conversation is all about and we're not conversation is all about and we're not doing it alone. So we've got three doing it alone. So we've got three doing it alone. So we've got three people here with us who have a lot of people here with us who have a lot of people here with us who have a lot of wisdom to share. wisdom to share. wisdom to share. >> Come on. >> Come on. >> Come on. >> Let's introduce. You're up first. >> Let's introduce. You're up first. >> Let's introduce. You're up first. >> All right, I'm Shawn. I get the >> All right, I'm Shawn. I get the >> All right, I'm Shawn. I get the opportunity to serve as the senior opportunity to serve as the senior opportunity to serve as the senior pastor at Willow Creek Community Church. pastor at Willow Creek Community Church. pastor at Willow Creek Community Church. >> Confirmed. >> Confirmed. >> Confirmed. >> Confirmed. >> Confirmed. >> Confirmed. >> I had to think about that one. >> I had to think about that one. >> I had to think about that one. >> We can confirm that. >> We can confirm that. >> We can confirm that. >> Dwayne? >> Dwayne? >> Dwayne? >> I'm Dwayne Calvin. I get the privilege >> I'm Dwayne Calvin. I get the privilege >> I'm Dwayne Calvin. I get the privilege of serving as a campus pastor at our of serving as a campus pastor at our of serving as a campus pastor at our South Barrington campus at Willow Creek South Barrington campus at Willow Creek South Barrington campus at Willow Creek Community Church. Community Church. Community Church. >> And I'm Lindsey Zareb. I am the content >> And I'm Lindsey Zareb. I am the content >> And I'm Lindsey Zareb. I am the content developer for our weekend team. So we're going to dive in today. Our So we're going to dive in today. Our topic is why is this book so weird? So topic is why is this book so weird? So topic is why is this book so weird? So we're talking multi-headed beasts. I we're talking multi-headed beasts. I we're talking multi-headed beasts. I read last night there's locusts with read last night there's locusts with read last night there's locusts with human faces and crowns on their head.

human faces and crowns on their head. human faces and crowns on their head. Um Um Um that's the whole thing. We're just going that's the whole thing. We're just going that's the whole thing. We're just going to go there. So Shawn to go there. So Shawn to go there. So Shawn first question. This one's easy for you. first question. This one's easy for you. first question. This one's easy for you. Revelation or Revelations? Revelation or Revelations? Revelation or Revelations? >> Oh gosh, it's almost a pet peeve of >> Oh gosh, it's almost a pet peeve of >> Oh gosh, it's almost a pet peeve of mine, Liz. Uh it's singular. It's just mine, Liz. Uh it's singular. It's just mine, Liz. Uh it's singular. It's just one revelation that God gave us through one revelation that God gave us through one revelation that God gave us through Jesus and so yeah, we keep it singular Jesus and so yeah, we keep it singular Jesus and so yeah, we keep it singular singular around here. singular around here. singular around here. >> Okay. Now, why does it matter >> Okay. Now, why does it matter >> Okay. Now, why does it matter for how we read and interpret this book? for how we read and interpret this book? for how we read and interpret this book? >> I I think about it this way. I think >> I I think about it this way. I think >> I I think about it this way. I think that that that like our assumptions are going to like our assumptions are going to like our assumptions are going to determine our conclusions as it relates determine our conclusions as it relates determine our conclusions as it relates to this book. That's probably true about to this book. That's probably true about to this book. That's probably true about most books, but it's especially true of most books, but it's especially true of most books, but it's especially true of Revelation. Revelation. Revelation. Uh Uh Uh maybe an illustration that helps me maybe an illustration that helps me maybe an illustration that helps me think about it is if you imagine you and think about it is if you imagine you and think about it is if you imagine you and I were sitting in a living room and I were sitting in a living room and I were sitting in a living room and there was a window right in the middle there was a window right in the middle there was a window right in the middle of the room. And you're on the far left of the room. And you're on the far left of the room. And you're on the far left side, so you're looking out that window, side, so you're looking out that window, side, so you're looking out that window, and what do you see? You see like maybe and what do you see? You see like maybe and what do you see? You see like maybe a swing set out out in the backyard. And a swing set out out in the backyard. And a swing set out out in the backyard. And then I'm sitting on the far right side. then I'm sitting on the far right side. then I'm sitting on the far right side. I look through the exact same window and I look through the exact same window and I look through the exact same window and I see a swimming pool like on the other I see a swimming pool like on the other I see a swimming pool like on the other side. So, depending on where we're side. So, depending on where we're side. So, depending on where we're sitting, we're looking through the same sitting, we're looking through the same sitting, we're looking through the same window and we're seeing something window and we're seeing something window and we're seeing something completely different. I think the same completely different. I think the same completely different. I think the same is true as it relates to Revelation.

is true as it relates to Revelation. is true as it relates to Revelation. Your assumptions and your starting point Your assumptions and your starting point Your assumptions and your starting point determine what you ultimately see. So, determine what you ultimately see. So, determine what you ultimately see. So, some people take a look at the book and some people take a look at the book and some people take a look at the book and their assumptions are, you got to take their assumptions are, you got to take their assumptions are, you got to take it literally, it's a timeline, it helps it literally, it's a timeline, it helps it literally, it's a timeline, it helps us understand the progressive how things us understand the progressive how things us understand the progressive how things are going to play out in the end. And are going to play out in the end. And are going to play out in the end. And so, that's their assumptions when they so, that's their assumptions when they so, that's their assumptions when they look at the book. That's going to be look at the book. That's going to be look at the book. That's going to be their conclusion. And then other people their conclusion. And then other people their conclusion. And then other people are going to take a more, are going to take a more, are going to take a more, uh, uh, uh, symbolic type of interpretation. Uh, see symbolic type of interpretation. Uh, see symbolic type of interpretation. Uh, see it not as a timeline, but a template. it not as a timeline, but a template. it not as a timeline, but a template. You know, they'll they'll see it through You know, they'll they'll see it through You know, they'll they'll see it through a completely different lens. So, again, a completely different lens. So, again, a completely different lens. So, again, they're looking at the same book, but they're looking at the same book, but they're looking at the same book, but they're going to have wildly different they're going to have wildly different they're going to have wildly different conclusions. conclusions. conclusions. >> So, >> So, >> So, more than any other book, the more than any other book, the more than any other book, the assumptions that you make right at the assumptions that you make right at the assumptions that you make right at the beginning before you even dive in are beginning before you even dive in are beginning before you even dive in are going to determine how you interpret it going to determine how you interpret it going to determine how you interpret it at the end. at the end. at the end. >> That's good. It's funny cuz I've been >> That's good. It's funny cuz I've been >> That's good. It's funny cuz I've been we've been journeying through this we've been journeying through this we've been journeying through this content, and I started taking some notes content, and I started taking some notes content, and I started taking some notes last night. I was reading I said, "I'm last night. I was reading I said, "I'm last night. I was reading I said, "I'm going to read Revelation in one going to read Revelation in one going to read Revelation in one sitting." sitting." sitting." It was I was tired, but I'm going to go It was I was tired, but I'm going to go It was I was tired, but I'm going to go through a few things. There's the vision through a few things. There's the vision through a few things. There's the vision of the Son of Man, the letters to the of the Son of Man, the letters to the of the Son of Man, the letters to the seven churches, the throne room with seven churches, the throne room with seven churches, the throne room with elders and living creatures, a second elders and living creatures, a second elders and living creatures, a second depiction of Jesus, seven seals, four depiction of Jesus, seven seals, four depiction of Jesus, seven seals, four horsemen, seven trumpets, three woes, horsemen, seven trumpets, three woes, horsemen, seven trumpets, three woes, John eats a scroll, there's a woman John eats a scroll, there's a woman John eats a scroll, there's a woman giving birth in a red dragon, three giving birth in a red dragon, three giving birth in a red dragon, three beasts, the mark of the beast, 144,000 beasts, the mark of the beast, 144,000 beasts, the mark of the beast, 144,000 people, three more angels with messages, people, three more angels with messages, people, three more angels with messages, seven angels with seven plagues, Babylon seven angels with seven plagues, Babylon seven angels with seven plagues, Babylon falls, the marriage of the lamb, Satan's falls, the marriage of the lamb, Satan's falls, the marriage of the lamb, Satan's thrown into a pit for a thousand years.

thrown into a pit for a thousand years. thrown into a pit for a thousand years. There's a book of life, a new heaven and There's a book of life, a new heaven and There's a book of life, a new heaven and earth come, a new Jerusalem, and Jesus earth come, a new Jerusalem, and Jesus earth come, a new Jerusalem, and Jesus says he's coming soon. Help me, Dwayne. says he's coming soon. Help me, Dwayne. says he's coming soon. Help me, Dwayne. >> Yeah, I think I think in a cursory >> Yeah, I think I think in a cursory >> Yeah, I think I think in a cursory reading of the book, you might come away reading of the book, you might come away reading of the book, you might come away with like some weird imagery. with like some weird imagery. with like some weird imagery. >> Well, have you seen The Matrix? >> Well, have you seen The Matrix? >> Well, have you seen The Matrix? >> I have. >> I have. >> I have. >> I feel like I fell asleep and I woke up >> I feel like I fell asleep and I woke up >> I feel like I fell asleep and I woke up in the middle of it and I'm like, "What in the middle of it and I'm like, "What in the middle of it and I'm like, "What is going on?" is going on?" is going on?" >> Yeah, I I felt the same way with The >> Yeah, I I felt the same way with The >> Yeah, I I felt the same way with The Matrix. I don't necessarily feel the Matrix. I don't necessarily feel the Matrix. I don't necessarily feel the same way with Revelation though. same way with Revelation though. same way with Revelation though. >> good. >> good. >> good. >> You know, as you read it, what we bring >> You know, as you read it, what we bring >> You know, as you read it, what we bring to it sometimes creates our context, our to it sometimes creates our context, our to it sometimes creates our context, our understanding of it. And so, if we look understanding of it. And so, if we look understanding of it. And so, if we look at it in modern terms and we think about at it in modern terms and we think about at it in modern terms and we think about all the imagery that's there, it can all the imagery that's there, it can all the imagery that's there, it can actually be a little bit weird and even actually be a little bit weird and even actually be a little bit weird and even maybe a little bit scary. But, it's maybe a little bit scary. But, it's maybe a little bit scary. But, it's important to understand that the author important to understand that the author important to understand that the author who wrote it had a very different who wrote it had a very different who wrote it had a very different purpose in mind. And when we start purpose in mind. And when we start purpose in mind. And when we start trying to understand his perspective, trying to understand his perspective, trying to understand his perspective, why he wrote it, who is he writing it why he wrote it, who is he writing it why he wrote it, who is he writing it to, those images that seem weird to, those images that seem weird to, those images that seem weird actually seem quite purposeful. actually seem quite purposeful. actually seem quite purposeful. >> Can you imagine someone who comes in you >> Can you imagine someone who comes in you >> Can you imagine someone who comes in you to the faith and we go, "Hey, the first to the faith and we go, "Hey, the first to the faith and we go, "Hey, the first book you could start reading is book you could start reading is book you could start reading is Revelation."

Revelation." Revelation." That would be so confusing. That would be so confusing. That would be so confusing. >> Well, and I think that's what's one of >> Well, and I think that's what's one of >> Well, and I think that's what's one of the challenging things with Revelation the challenging things with Revelation the challenging things with Revelation is it really can show you how much of is it really can show you how much of is it really can show you how much of the Bible you actually know the Bible you actually know the Bible you actually know or don't know. And so, um because when or don't know. And so, um because when or don't know. And so, um because when you think about the original audience, you think about the original audience, you think about the original audience, this type of literature, this type of literature, this type of literature, uh apocalyptic, was not unusual to them. uh apocalyptic, was not unusual to them. uh apocalyptic, was not unusual to them. Um they thought and were taught in these Um they thought and were taught in these Um they thought and were taught in these kind of symbolic terms that seem wild to kind of symbolic terms that seem wild to kind of symbolic terms that seem wild to us, but like one of our like one of the us, but like one of our like one of the us, but like one of our like one of the conversations we had was we know, right? conversations we had was we know, right? conversations we had was we know, right? When we talk about like an underdog When we talk about like an underdog When we talk about like an underdog team, we'll say something like, "Oh, team, we'll say something like, "Oh, team, we'll say something like, "Oh, it's a Cinderella story, right?" And our it's a Cinderella story, right?" And our it's a Cinderella story, right?" And our context, we know what that means. It context, we know what that means. It context, we know what that means. It doesn't mean the basketball players were doesn't mean the basketball players were doesn't mean the basketball players were wearing glass slippers as they played wearing glass slippers as they played wearing glass slippers as they played the game, right? So, it's it's the same the game, right? So, it's it's the same the game, right? So, it's it's the same kind of thing. So, I do think for kind of thing. So, I do think for kind of thing. So, I do think for someone who's new to the faith, if someone who's new to the faith, if someone who's new to the faith, if you're going to read Revelation, just you're going to read Revelation, just you're going to read Revelation, just make sure you're doing it with other make sure you're doing it with other make sure you're doing it with other people who've sort of been walking for a people who've sort of been walking for a people who've sort of been walking for a little bit longer. little bit longer. little bit longer. >> So, I feel like we've talked about this >> So, I feel like we've talked about this >> So, I feel like we've talked about this a lot about the context in which it was a lot about the context in which it was a lot about the context in which it was written.

written. written. So, the author, John, wrote this. Let's So, the author, John, wrote this. Let's So, the author, John, wrote this. Let's Let's talk about what was happening when Let's talk about what was happening when Let's talk about what was happening when he wrote this and why that's so he wrote this and why that's so he wrote this and why that's so significant to understanding the Book of significant to understanding the Book of significant to understanding the Book of Revelations. Revelations. Revelations. >> Revelation, Mario. >> Revelation, Mario. >> Revelation, Mario. >> Revelation. >> Revelation. >> Revelation. >> Yeah, he did it. He did it again. >> Yeah, he did it. He did it again. >> Yeah, he did it. He did it again. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Um Um Um We We know that the book was written by We We know that the book was written by We We know that the book was written by John. This is the Apostle John. This is John. This is the Apostle John. This is John. This is the Apostle John. This is the guy that walked with Jesus. Calls the guy that walked with Jesus. Calls the guy that walked with Jesus. Calls himself the disciple whom Jesus loved. himself the disciple whom Jesus loved. himself the disciple whom Jesus loved. At this time of writing, he's the only At this time of writing, he's the only At this time of writing, he's the only disciple still living. Every other disciple still living. Every other disciple still living. Every other disciple has been martyred. And so, they disciple has been martyred. And so, they disciple has been martyred. And so, they were living under this intense were living under this intense were living under this intense persecution from the Roman Empire. John persecution from the Roman Empire. John persecution from the Roman Empire. John is not a free man. He's on the island of is not a free man. He's on the island of is not a free man. He's on the island of Patmos. He's been exiled. So, he's Patmos. He's been exiled. So, he's Patmos. He's been exiled. So, he's really under Roman captivity on the really under Roman captivity on the really under Roman captivity on the island of Patmos. island of Patmos. island of Patmos. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> But, he's got these seven churches that >> But, he's got these seven churches that >> But, he's got these seven churches that he dearly loves. These seven churches, he dearly loves. These seven churches, he dearly loves. These seven churches, they're in Asia Minor, modern-day they're in Asia Minor, modern-day they're in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey. And he's trying to write a Turkey. And he's trying to write a Turkey. And he's trying to write a letter to give them hope amidst this letter to give them hope amidst this letter to give them hope amidst this intense persecution that the entire intense persecution that the entire intense persecution that the entire church Every one of these churches is church Every one of these churches is church Every one of these churches is experiencing. I mean, you think about experiencing. I mean, you think about experiencing. I mean, you think about the the time in which this this was the the time in which this this was the the time in which this this was written. Most of us suggest there's written. Most of us suggest there's written. Most of us suggest there's somewhere in the neighborhood of 40,000 somewhere in the neighborhood of 40,000 somewhere in the neighborhood of 40,000 Christians that were martyred for their Christians that were martyred for their Christians that were martyred for their faith faith faith by the dominating Roman Empire. So, by the dominating Roman Empire. So, by the dominating Roman Empire. So, there's this massive imperial there's this massive imperial there's this massive imperial persecution. And so, John's going to try persecution. And so, John's going to try persecution. And so, John's going to try to write a letter that gives the church to write a letter that gives the church to write a letter that gives the church hope amidst this really dark season.

hope amidst this really dark season. hope amidst this really dark season. But, he's got to do so in a way that the But, he's got to do so in a way that the But, he's got to do so in a way that the early church would understand what he's early church would understand what he's early church would understand what he's talking about, but the Romans wouldn't talking about, but the Romans wouldn't talking about, but the Romans wouldn't understand it, right? Because if he's understand it, right? Because if he's understand it, right? Because if he's under Roman captivity, there's no way to under Roman captivity, there's no way to under Roman captivity, there's no way to get the letter from where he's at to get the letter from where he's at to get the letter from where he's at to where they are without the Romans seeing where they are without the Romans seeing where they are without the Romans seeing him. So, how does he write about the him. So, how does he write about the him. So, how does he write about the victory of Jesus and the downfall of victory of Jesus and the downfall of victory of Jesus and the downfall of Rome without Rome taking him out for Rome without Rome taking him out for Rome without Rome taking him out for writing such a writing such a writing such a um um um such a subversive type of letter. such a subversive type of letter. such a subversive type of letter. >> Yeah. Let's So, let's talk about >> Yeah. Let's So, let's talk about >> Yeah. Let's So, let's talk about persecution. Like that that word. I feel persecution. Like that that word. I feel persecution. Like that that word. I feel like we like we like we when we think of persecution today, when we think of persecution today, when we think of persecution today, we like to think about that in our own we like to think about that in our own we like to think about that in our own context. And we say things like the context. And we say things like the context. And we say things like the church is being persecuted today in the church is being persecuted today in the church is being persecuted today in the US or there is persecution happening US or there is persecution happening US or there is persecution happening across seas in different countries, but across seas in different countries, but across seas in different countries, but let's talk about what that meant what let's talk about what that meant what let's talk about what that meant what persecution actually looked like in that persecution actually looked like in that persecution actually looked like in that time period. time period. time period. >> Yeah, yeah, I think persecution um >> Yeah, yeah, I think persecution um >> Yeah, yeah, I think persecution um whether it's today or even back then, it whether it's today or even back then, it whether it's today or even back then, it looks pretty much the same. It is looks pretty much the same. It is looks pretty much the same. It is someone being deliberately someone being deliberately someone being deliberately uh killed or hurt or abused because of uh killed or hurt or abused because of uh killed or hurt or abused because of their faith.

their faith. their faith. And so uh the persecution that John has And so uh the persecution that John has And so uh the persecution that John has experienced, he's seen it across his experienced, he's seen it across his experienced, he's seen it across his whole friend group to the point of whole friend group to the point of whole friend group to the point of death. Um he's seen it happen in ways death. Um he's seen it happen in ways death. Um he's seen it happen in ways that are unimaginable. And the rulers of that are unimaginable. And the rulers of that are unimaginable. And the rulers of the day uh create a such a fear around the day uh create a such a fear around the day uh create a such a fear around this. And in the midst of that, he this. And in the midst of that, he this. And in the midst of that, he thinks thinks thinks I got to remind everybody about Jesus, I got to remind everybody about Jesus, I got to remind everybody about Jesus, that he's real, that he's important, that he's real, that he's important, that he's real, that he's important, that he matters for everything. And so that he matters for everything. And so that he matters for everything. And so the courage that it takes to move the courage that it takes to move the courage that it takes to move through that kind of persecution, I mean through that kind of persecution, I mean through that kind of persecution, I mean it's some similar to courage that we see it's some similar to courage that we see it's some similar to courage that we see with Christians who are persecuted even with Christians who are persecuted even with Christians who are persecuted even today. today. today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And when you understand that And when you understand that And when you understand that persecution, then you were talking about persecution, then you were talking about persecution, then you were talking about the way that it needed to be the way that it needed to be the way that it needed to be communicated. It had to be in a way that communicated. It had to be in a way that communicated. It had to be in a way that only they could understand that. I know only they could understand that. I know only they could understand that. I know there's a whole um there's a whole um there's a whole um there's a whole language to that that there's a whole language to that that there's a whole language to that that takes us back to the Old Testament. takes us back to the Old Testament. takes us back to the Old Testament. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Give us an example. >> Give us an example. >> Give us an example. >> I I I I think you're an example would be >> I I I I think you're an example would be >> I I I I think you're an example would be again it's I think why John chose to again it's I think why John chose to again it's I think why John chose to write in what is now called apocalyptic write in what is now called apocalyptic write in what is now called apocalyptic literature. They would have been literature. They would have been literature. They would have been familiar like you said back in the first familiar like you said back in the first familiar like you said back in the first century. You see a lot of different century. You see a lot of different century. You see a lot of different books written in this apocalyptic books written in this apocalyptic books written in this apocalyptic literature from 200 BC to 200 AD. Uh literature from 200 BC to 200 AD. Uh literature from 200 BC to 200 AD. Uh primarily for in the Jew Jewish primarily for in the Jew Jewish primarily for in the Jew Jewish audience. And it draws so significantly audience. And it draws so significantly audience. And it draws so significantly on Old Testament imagery. Why does that on Old Testament imagery. Why does that on Old Testament imagery. Why does that matter? Well, it matters because if matter? Well, it matters because if matter? Well, it matters because if John's going to write a letter about the John's going to write a letter about the John's going to write a letter about the downfall of Rome, the victory of Jesus downfall of Rome, the victory of Jesus downfall of Rome, the victory of Jesus that the church understands, but Rome that the church understands, but Rome that the church understands, but Rome doesn't understand, how does he write doesn't understand, how does he write doesn't understand, how does he write it? He writes it the way that the Jewish it? He writes it the way that the Jewish it? He writes it the way that the Jewish Christians would have known their Old Christians would have known their Old Christians would have known their Old Testament. They know these symbols. They Testament. They know these symbols. They Testament. They know these symbols. They know what they mean. It would have know what they mean. It would have know what they mean. It would have provided immense encouragement to them.

provided immense encouragement to them. provided immense encouragement to them. And the Romans be like, And the Romans be like, And the Romans be like, "This is as weird as you thought it "This is as weird as you thought it "This is as weird as you thought it was." Like, John's found some mushrooms was." Like, John's found some mushrooms was." Like, John's found some mushrooms on the island of Patmos. Like, what in on the island of Patmos. Like, what in on the island of Patmos. Like, what in the world's going on? And so, it was a the world's going on? And so, it was a the world's going on? And so, it was a beautiful, subversive way for John to beautiful, subversive way for John to beautiful, subversive way for John to communicate this brilliant message of communicate this brilliant message of communicate this brilliant message of hope to the church in a way that the hope to the church in a way that the hope to the church in a way that the Romans would have had no understanding. Romans would have had no understanding. Romans would have had no understanding. >> I love that. And Lindsey, I know you've >> I love that. And Lindsey, I know you've >> I love that. And Lindsey, I know you've been living in this a lot. So, two been living in this a lot. So, two been living in this a lot. So, two questions for you. One, do you have an questions for you. One, do you have an questions for you. One, do you have an example of like maybe a symbol we find example of like maybe a symbol we find example of like maybe a symbol we find in Revelation that was in the Old in Revelation that was in the Old in Revelation that was in the Old Testament? And then two, how does that Testament? And then two, how does that Testament? And then two, how does that understanding shape how we approach and understanding shape how we approach and understanding shape how we approach and read it today? read it today? read it today? >> Sure. Well, I mean, right away in um you >> Sure. Well, I mean, right away in um you >> Sure. Well, I mean, right away in um you know, chapter 1 he talks about the know, chapter 1 he talks about the know, chapter 1 he talks about the lampstands. And and the lampstand was in lampstands. And and the lampstand was in lampstands. And and the lampstand was in the temple. So, it's the beauty of I the temple. So, it's the beauty of I the temple. So, it's the beauty of I think what we see there then in chapter think what we see there then in chapter think what we see there then in chapter 1 is he talks about the lampstand and 1 is he talks about the lampstand and 1 is he talks about the lampstand and then he talks about how these seven then he talks about how these seven then he talks about how these seven churches that they're that he's churches that they're that he's churches that they're that he's about to write to, you know, about to write to, you know, about to write to, you know, uh the lampstand is in uh the lampstand is in uh the lampstand is in is in the center and they're surrounding is in the center and they're surrounding is in the center and they're surrounding it, right? So, it's like Jesus is it, right? So, it's like Jesus is it, right? So, it's like Jesus is actually in the center of all of this actually in the center of all of this actually in the center of all of this difficulty, of the persecution, of all difficulty, of the persecution, of all difficulty, of the persecution, of all the challenges that they're facing. And the challenges that they're facing. And the challenges that they're facing. And the same is for us today. Like, he the same is for us today. Like, he the same is for us today. Like, he doesn't, you know, just sit on his doesn't, you know, just sit on his doesn't, you know, just sit on his throne in heaven and say, "Good luck, throne in heaven and say, "Good luck, throne in heaven and say, "Good luck, kids." Like, he's actually with us, kids." Like, he's actually with us, kids." Like, he's actually with us, present with us through all of our present with us through all of our present with us through all of our challenges. And that's exactly what John challenges. And that's exactly what John challenges. And that's exactly what John wanted them to know before he even went wanted them to know before he even went wanted them to know before he even went into anything about how they needed to

into anything about how they needed to into anything about how they needed to sort of get their act together. It was, sort of get their act together. It was, sort of get their act together. It was, "Jesus is with you." And uh the same "Jesus is with you." And uh the same "Jesus is with you." And uh the same >> And that imagery like is so important >> And that imagery like is so important >> And that imagery like is so important because at the time, Domitian is the one because at the time, Domitian is the one because at the time, Domitian is the one who is in rulership. And they had begun who is in rulership. And they had begun who is in rulership. And they had begun many people had begun to look at him many people had begun to look at him many people had begun to look at him almost as deity. And so, what John is almost as deity. And so, what John is almost as deity. And so, what John is trying to remind them is that Domitian trying to remind them is that Domitian trying to remind them is that Domitian is not deity in any way. It's Jesus at is not deity in any way. It's Jesus at is not deity in any way. It's Jesus at the center. the center. the center. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Can you Sean, can you go back to >> Can you Sean, can you go back to >> Can you Sean, can you go back to something you you've mentioned before something you you've mentioned before something you you've mentioned before and we've talked about this a lot, but and we've talked about this a lot, but and we've talked about this a lot, but this idea of not a timeline, but a this idea of not a timeline, but a this idea of not a timeline, but a template. And you mentioned it in template. And you mentioned it in template. And you mentioned it in passing, but let's dive deeper into what passing, but let's dive deeper into what passing, but let's dive deeper into what that what that means and what you meant that what that means and what you meant that what that means and what you meant by that. by that. by that. >> Yeah, so >> Yeah, so >> Yeah, so again, it goes back to your approach. again, it goes back to your approach. again, it goes back to your approach. And so again, your assumptions are going And so again, your assumptions are going And so again, your assumptions are going to determine your conclusions, right? So to determine your conclusions, right? So to determine your conclusions, right? So there are some people that will approach there are some people that will approach there are some people that will approach the book of Revelation and go, "It's a the book of Revelation and go, "It's a the book of Revelation and go, "It's a timeline." And they see it truly as a timeline." And they see it truly as a timeline." And they see it truly as a sequence of events that you almost check sequence of events that you almost check sequence of events that you almost check all the boxes of all the things that all the boxes of all the things that all the boxes of all the things that happen and when all the boxes get happen and when all the boxes get happen and when all the boxes get checked then Jesus returns. And they say checked then Jesus returns. And they say checked then Jesus returns. And they say they see it as a timeline, that they see it as a timeline, that they see it as a timeline, that particular interpretive methodology particular interpretive methodology particular interpretive methodology uh are looking at Revelation and trying uh are looking at Revelation and trying uh are looking at Revelation and trying to draw correlations to current events to draw correlations to current events to draw correlations to current events cuz it's a timeline. How do I see what cuz it's a timeline. How do I see what cuz it's a timeline. How do I see what happened in chapter 13? Oh, that's this happened in chapter 13? Oh, that's this happened in chapter 13? Oh, that's this thing that plays out, you know, right thing that plays out, you know, right thing that plays out, you know, right now. Whereas there's another school of now. Whereas there's another school of now. Whereas there's another school of thought that says, "What if it's not a thought that says, "What if it's not a thought that says, "What if it's not a timeline? What if it's actually a timeline? What if it's actually a timeline? What if it's actually a template?" In other words, template?" In other words, template?" In other words, it's it's what happened in the first it's it's what happened in the first it's it's what happened in the first century. It's what continues to happen century. It's what continues to happen century. It's what continues to happen today. And ultimately, will continue to today. And ultimately, will continue to today. And ultimately, will continue to happen until Jesus returns. So it's less happen until Jesus returns. So it's less happen until Jesus returns. So it's less about checking all the boxes. In a

about checking all the boxes. In a about checking all the boxes. In a sense, all the boxes have been checked. sense, all the boxes have been checked. sense, all the boxes have been checked. Jesus can come back at any time Jesus Jesus can come back at any time Jesus Jesus can come back at any time Jesus wants to come back. So an example of wants to come back. So an example of wants to come back. So an example of that would be that would be that would be this idea of tribulation, right? So this idea of tribulation, right? So this idea of tribulation, right? So sometimes when you talk about the end, sometimes when you talk about the end, sometimes when you talk about the end, you hear people talk about the great you hear people talk about the great you hear people talk about the great tribulation. That's actually Revelation tribulation. That's actually Revelation tribulation. That's actually Revelation language. It's in Revelation chapter 7. language. It's in Revelation chapter 7. language. It's in Revelation chapter 7. And uh so some people would take that to And uh so some people would take that to And uh so some people would take that to be that's all futuristic. There's this be that's all futuristic. There's this be that's all futuristic. There's this time that there's going to be this great time that there's going to be this great time that there's going to be this great tribulation that's going to happen. And tribulation that's going to happen. And tribulation that's going to happen. And that may be 100% true. And that may be 100% true. And that may be 100% true. And there was also a great tribulation in there was also a great tribulation in there was also a great tribulation in the first century living as a Christ the first century living as a Christ the first century living as a Christ follower in ancient Rome. That was a follower in ancient Rome. That was a follower in ancient Rome. That was a huge tribulation, right? And I would say huge tribulation, right? And I would say huge tribulation, right? And I would say even today people experience great even today people experience great even today people experience great tribulation in all kinds of ways. And so tribulation in all kinds of ways. And so tribulation in all kinds of ways. And so if you see it as a template, what you're if you see it as a template, what you're if you see it as a template, what you're saying is saying is saying is Revelation unveils what's happening Revelation unveils what's happening Revelation unveils what's happening spiritually. It gives us some practical spiritually. It gives us some practical spiritually. It gives us some practical tools about how we stay in faithful to tools about how we stay in faithful to tools about how we stay in faithful to God amidst tribulation and what's true God amidst tribulation and what's true God amidst tribulation and what's true in the future in the future in the future has always been true and is still true has always been true and is still true has always been true and is still true today. The beautiful thing about that today. The beautiful thing about that today. The beautiful thing about that interpretive philosophy is it makes interpretive philosophy is it makes interpretive philosophy is it makes Revelation matter in every season to Revelation matter in every season to Revelation matter in every season to every people who've ever lived. There's every people who've ever lived. There's every people who've ever lived. There's this beautiful picture of what it means this beautiful picture of what it means this beautiful picture of what it means to hang your hope with Jesus amidst of to hang your hope with Jesus amidst of to hang your hope with Jesus amidst of whatever tribulation you're facing.

whatever tribulation you're facing. whatever tribulation you're facing. >> I think one of the greatest dangers we >> I think one of the greatest dangers we >> I think one of the greatest dangers we approach the book with to your point approach the book with to your point approach the book with to your point Sean is that we look for the timeline Sean is that we look for the timeline Sean is that we look for the timeline and we want to so greatly understand the and we want to so greatly understand the and we want to so greatly understand the timeline. And so we spend a lot of time timeline. And so we spend a lot of time timeline. And so we spend a lot of time chasing the timeline rather than chasing chasing the timeline rather than chasing chasing the timeline rather than chasing Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And the goal of the Christian life is >> And the goal of the Christian life is >> And the goal of the Christian life is really to follow Jesus. So this throws really to follow Jesus. So this throws really to follow Jesus. So this throws us off course. us off course. us off course. >> You know it and you just said that and I >> You know it and you just said that and I >> You know it and you just said that and I think that you're saying something think that you're saying something think that you're saying something that's so precise around the book of that's so precise around the book of that's so precise around the book of Revelation cuz the first verses of the Revelation cuz the first verses of the Revelation cuz the first verses of the book is it's a revelation of book is it's a revelation of book is it's a revelation of Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. >> Jesus. It's not a revelation of the end. >> Jesus. It's not a revelation of the end. >> Jesus. It's not a revelation of the end. It's not a revelation of a timeline. It's not a revelation of a timeline. It's not a revelation of a timeline. It's a revelation of Jesus and so if we It's a revelation of Jesus and so if we It's a revelation of Jesus and so if we get so focused in all the different get so focused in all the different get so focused in all the different symbols and descriptors and we miss symbols and descriptors and we miss symbols and descriptors and we miss Jesus, I would say we missed the entire Jesus, I would say we missed the entire Jesus, I would say we missed the entire focus of the book. focus of the book. focus of the book. >> I think that's one of the critical >> I think that's one of the critical >> I think that's one of the critical things to how we approach reading it and things to how we approach reading it and things to how we approach reading it and studying it and studying it and studying it and talking about it even in community is talking about it even in community is talking about it even in community is like we have to we can get really lost like we have to we can get really lost like we have to we can get really lost in some of the details and it can be in some of the details and it can be in some of the details and it can be really like interesting and you can go really like interesting and you can go really like interesting and you can go on and on and on and there's you know on and on and on and there's you know on and on and on and there's you know there's a time and a place for that but there's a time and a place for that but there's a time and a place for that but if we don't pull back up to the if we don't pull back up to the if we don't pull back up to the overarching purpose of Revelation which overarching purpose of Revelation which overarching purpose of Revelation which really is a discipleship book to really is a discipleship book to really is a discipleship book to encourage us to pursue readiness, right?

encourage us to pursue readiness, right? encourage us to pursue readiness, right? And to be ready for Jesus's return then And to be ready for Jesus's return then And to be ready for Jesus's return then we can get lost in all of those things we can get lost in all of those things we can get lost in all of those things and we get overwhelmed and consumed and we get overwhelmed and consumed and we get overwhelmed and consumed rather than recognizing and being able rather than recognizing and being able rather than recognizing and being able to see Jesus throughout the whole book to see Jesus throughout the whole book to see Jesus throughout the whole book and then also the whole entirety of and then also the whole entirety of and then also the whole entirety of scripture. Like that's the intention. So scripture. Like that's the intention. So scripture. Like that's the intention. So I think it's yeah. I think it's yeah. I think it's yeah. >> I love that. Like I said I read through >> I love that. Like I said I read through >> I love that. Like I said I read through the whole thing in one sitting last the whole thing in one sitting last the whole thing in one sitting last night because I knew that I wanted to night because I knew that I wanted to night because I knew that I wanted to get to the end. Like once I got to the get to the end. Like once I got to the get to the end. Like once I got to the end the whole thing would make sense. end the whole thing would make sense. end the whole thing would make sense. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um I also didn't want to go to bed >> Um I also didn't want to go to bed >> Um I also didn't want to go to bed in the middle. in the middle. in the middle. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That That was a good decision. >> That That was a good decision. >> That That was a good decision. >> to go. >> to go. >> to go. >> That was a good decision Liz. Didn't it >> That was a good decision Liz. Didn't it >> That was a good decision Liz. Didn't it feel weird? Didn't it feel weird? feel weird? Didn't it feel weird? feel weird? Didn't it feel weird? >> But right? So I >> But right? So I >> But right? So I I so often we're like okay it's God's I so often we're like okay it's God's I so often we're like okay it's God's word you open it you read it he's going word you open it you read it he's going word you open it you read it he's going to speak to you but if you get stuck to speak to you but if you get stuck to speak to you but if you get stuck in it you're in the details you're in in it you're in the details you're in in it you're in the details you're in the weeds there's these seven seals and the weeds there's these seven seals and the weeds there's these seven seals and hail coming down and locusts and marks hail coming down and locusts and marks hail coming down and locusts and marks of the beast and all of that um of the beast and all of that um of the beast and all of that um how do you approach it? Where do you how do you approach it? Where do you how do you approach it? Where do you look? How do we start to unpack and look? How do we start to unpack and look? How do we start to unpack and really equip people to read this book really equip people to read this book really equip people to read this book um um um from a perspective of hope instead of from a perspective of hope instead of from a perspective of hope instead of fear?

fear? fear? This is for anybody anybody. This is for anybody anybody. This is for anybody anybody. >> Yeah I I think you start at a place of >> Yeah I I think you start at a place of >> Yeah I I think you start at a place of trying to gain truth and understanding. trying to gain truth and understanding. trying to gain truth and understanding. Um when you approach the text we all Um when you approach the text we all Um when you approach the text we all bring something with us to the table. bring something with us to the table. bring something with us to the table. Sometimes we bring past experiences or Sometimes we bring past experiences or Sometimes we bring past experiences or things that we've heard. Sometimes we things that we've heard. Sometimes we things that we've heard. Sometimes we bring the podcast video or the YouTube bring the podcast video or the YouTube bring the podcast video or the YouTube that we heard a few weeks ago. that we heard a few weeks ago. that we heard a few weeks ago. One of the biggest things that we bring One of the biggest things that we bring One of the biggest things that we bring to the book that doesn't typically help to the book that doesn't typically help to the book that doesn't typically help is that we bring a lot of fear. is that we bring a lot of fear. is that we bring a lot of fear. Uh and what's interesting about this Uh and what's interesting about this Uh and what's interesting about this book is that one of the aims or the book is that one of the aims or the book is that one of the aims or the designs is to lower the fear not to designs is to lower the fear not to designs is to lower the fear not to increase it. And so when we approach the increase it. And so when we approach the increase it. And so when we approach the book with that we already bring a bunch book with that we already bring a bunch book with that we already bring a bunch of presuppositions to it. What we're of presuppositions to it. What we're of presuppositions to it. What we're looking to understand is truth and we looking to understand is truth and we looking to understand is truth and we want to read to a standard and not to a want to read to a standard and not to a want to read to a standard and not to a time. Like there's times where we just time. Like there's times where we just time. Like there's times where we just want to get a lot of reading done and so want to get a lot of reading done and so want to get a lot of reading done and so I mean like last night right? I want to I mean like last night right? I want to I mean like last night right? I want to just read through it I want to try to just read through it I want to try to just read through it I want to try to understand it and so we read to a time. understand it and so we read to a time. understand it and so we read to a time. We go I'm going to read till I finish We go I'm going to read till I finish We go I'm going to read till I finish this it's going to be great and then we this it's going to be great and then we this it's going to be great and then we walk away without understanding. I think walk away without understanding. I think walk away without understanding. I think we want to read to the standard of we want to read to the standard of we want to read to the standard of understanding. understanding. understanding. And so however long that takes, let's And so however long that takes, let's And so however long that takes, let's take the time to really dig in deep to take the time to really dig in deep to take the time to really dig in deep to it.

it. it. >> Y'all I'm sorry. >> Y'all I'm sorry. >> Y'all I'm sorry. >> Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Go ahead. Go ahead. >> to say I think also it's helpful >> to say I think also it's helpful >> to say I think also it's helpful and I think this is an approach we can and I think this is an approach we can and I think this is an approach we can take with any scripture that we're going take with any scripture that we're going take with any scripture that we're going to read but especially with Revelation to read but especially with Revelation to read but especially with Revelation to like cuz this one it's in particular to like cuz this one it's in particular to like cuz this one it's in particular that we do often come with preconceived that we do often come with preconceived that we do often come with preconceived notions. But it's actually do a notions. But it's actually do a notions. But it's actually do a self-examination before. Like what do I self-examination before. Like what do I self-examination before. Like what do I already think about this book? Why do I already think about this book? Why do I already think about this book? Why do I already think that? Like where did that already think that? Like where did that already think that? Like where did that come from? Was it something that I was come from? Was it something that I was come from? Was it something that I was actually taught before or is it actually taught before or is it actually taught before or is it something that I I'm not even sure how I something that I I'm not even sure how I something that I I'm not even sure how I learned that or where that came from cuz learned that or where that came from cuz learned that or where that came from cuz there's a lot of misnomers in pop there's a lot of misnomers in pop there's a lot of misnomers in pop culture about the end times and culture about the end times and culture about the end times and apocalypse and I mean there's a movie apocalypse and I mean there's a movie apocalypse and I mean there's a movie called Armageddon. So like you know, so called Armageddon. So like you know, so called Armageddon. So like you know, so really I think a bit of really I think a bit of really I think a bit of self-examination. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But in it you know, before you even sit >> But in it you know, before you even sit >> But in it you know, before you even sit down to just okay Lord, why why do I down to just okay Lord, why why do I down to just okay Lord, why why do I already have some of these thoughts already have some of these thoughts already have some of these thoughts before I even attempt to to read. before I even attempt to to read. before I even attempt to to read. >> I don't know about you guys but I grew >> I don't know about you guys but I grew >> I don't know about you guys but I grew up with so much fear around this. Like I up with so much fear around this. Like I up with so much fear around this. Like I was I was legit 5 years old and you was I was legit 5 years old and you was I was legit 5 years old and you know, pastor would get up and preach know, pastor would get up and preach know, pastor would get up and preach like Jesus could come right now.

like Jesus could come right now. like Jesus could come right now. You're not ready and like from as a You're not ready and like from as a You're not ready and like from as a 5-year-old 5-year-old 5-year-old I don't want Well, I was like I don't I don't want Well, I was like I don't I don't want Well, I was like I don't want you to come right now cuz I think I want you to come right now cuz I think I want you to come right now cuz I think I just lied to my mom this morning. just lied to my mom this morning. just lied to my mom this morning. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I can't I can't let that happen let that >> I can't I can't let that happen let that >> I can't I can't let that happen let that happen right now and we grew up with so happen right now and we grew up with so happen right now and we grew up with so much fear around it. Well, there's a much fear around it. Well, there's a much fear around it. Well, there's a there's a there's a there's a a statement that I I wrote down. a statement that I I wrote down. a statement that I I wrote down. Christians have agreed for 2,000 years Christians have agreed for 2,000 years Christians have agreed for 2,000 years that Jesus is coming. But they've spent that Jesus is coming. But they've spent that Jesus is coming. But they've spent 2,000 years disagreeing about the 2,000 years disagreeing about the 2,000 years disagreeing about the schedule. schedule. schedule. >> Yeah. That's right. >> Yeah. That's right. >> Yeah. That's right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And Lindsey you've talked about just the >> And Lindsey you've talked about just the >> And Lindsey you've talked about just the approaches of reading it These words are approaches of reading it These words are approaches of reading it These words are hard for me. Literally versus literally hard for me. Literally versus literally hard for me. Literally versus literally and why and why and why tell me about the difference between tell me about the difference between tell me about the difference between those and why it matters and how we those and why it matters and how we those and why it matters and how we approach it. approach it. approach it. >> Well, I think you know, even within all >> Well, I think you know, even within all >> Well, I think you know, even within all of scripture, right? The it's made up of of scripture, right? The it's made up of of scripture, right? The it's made up of different books that are different types different books that are different types different books that are different types of literature. So, like you're not going of literature. So, like you're not going of literature. So, like you're not going to read Proverbs the same way that to read Proverbs the same way that to read Proverbs the same way that you're going to read the Gospels and the you're going to read the Gospels and the you're going to read the Gospels and the same thing goes with Revelation. So, same thing goes with Revelation. So, same thing goes with Revelation. So, reading it literally means you respect reading it literally means you respect reading it literally means you respect the literature style in which it is the literature style in which it is the literature style in which it is written and and therefore, you know, written and and therefore, you know, written and and therefore, you know, there are people who can read it there are people who can read it there are people who can read it literally, but I think a literally, but I think a literally, but I think a more plausible and more uh more plausible and more uh more plausible and more uh faithful way of reading it is literally faithful way of reading it is literally faithful way of reading it is literally because it was written in that way just because it was written in that way just because it was written in that way just as Pastor Shawn just said for a purpose as Pastor Shawn just said for a purpose as Pastor Shawn just said for a purpose and a reason for that first audience.

and a reason for that first audience. and a reason for that first audience. Like we have to keep in mind that first Like we have to keep in mind that first Like we have to keep in mind that first audience when we read it. audience when we read it. audience when we read it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I think maybe like a >> I think maybe like a >> I think maybe like a an example that helps me make sense of an example that helps me make sense of an example that helps me make sense of the literally versus literally. So, the literally versus literally. So, the literally versus literally. So, again, we're 2,000 years removed from again, we're 2,000 years removed from again, we're 2,000 years removed from the writing of this. the writing of this. the writing of this. I'm two generations removed from my son I'm two generations removed from my son I'm two generations removed from my son and he uses language that sometimes I and he uses language that sometimes I and he uses language that sometimes I don't understand what he's talking don't understand what he's talking don't understand what he's talking about, right? And so, I was at dinner about, right? And so, I was at dinner about, right? And so, I was at dinner with him the other night and he said with him the other night and he said with him the other night and he said something about it's a really good meal. something about it's a really good meal. something about it's a really good meal. He's like, "This chicken's fire." He's like, "This chicken's fire." He's like, "This chicken's fire." And I'm like, I think I know what that And I'm like, I think I know what that And I'm like, I think I know what that means, but I'm not 100% sure, right? means, but I'm not 100% sure, right? means, but I'm not 100% sure, right? Now, if I took that literally, Now, if I took that literally, Now, if I took that literally, I would need to go get some graham I would need to go get some graham I would need to go get some graham crackers and marshmallows and chocolate crackers and marshmallows and chocolate crackers and marshmallows and chocolate make some s'mores because this chicken make some s'mores because this chicken make some s'mores because this chicken is fire. Like but it was not intended to is fire. Like but it was not intended to is fire. Like but it was not intended to be literally. be literally. be literally. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> It's literally. He's it's an expression. >> It's literally. He's it's an expression. >> It's literally. He's it's an expression. It's a euphemism. It means it's amazing. It's a euphemism. It means it's amazing. It's a euphemism. It means it's amazing. It's awesome, right? So, I'm just two It's awesome, right? So, I'm just two It's awesome, right? So, I'm just two generations removed from my son and they generations removed from my son and they generations removed from my son and they have all kinds of euphemisms like that. have all kinds of euphemisms like that. have all kinds of euphemisms like that. So, rewind 2,000 years. How many So, rewind 2,000 years. How many So, rewind 2,000 years. How many generations am I removed from this? And generations am I removed from this? And generations am I removed from this? And so, what would have been understood so so, what would have been understood so so, what would have been understood so clearly in the first century sometimes clearly in the first century sometimes clearly in the first century sometimes is hard for us. And I think it's a is hard for us. And I think it's a is hard for us. And I think it's a mistake if we just assume that mistake if we just assume that mistake if we just assume that everything written should be taken everything written should be taken everything written should be taken literally as opposed to literarily. So, literally as opposed to literarily. So, literally as opposed to literarily. So, talk about that specifically in talk about that specifically in talk about that specifically in Revelation. What are the couple details Revelation. What are the couple details Revelation. What are the couple details that you mentioned a few times? Liz, are that you mentioned a few times? Liz, are that you mentioned a few times? Liz, are these crazy locusts in chapter 9? And these crazy locusts in chapter 9? And these crazy locusts in chapter 9? And like I like I like I I've heard people I've heard people I've heard people try to interpret that literally. And try to interpret that literally. And try to interpret that literally. And what they'll do is they'll try to what they'll do is they'll try to what they'll do is they'll try to correspond to some sort of current correspond to some sort of current correspond to some sort of current events. I've literally heard it preached events. I've literally heard it preached events. I've literally heard it preached on a Sunday, somebody interpreted that

on a Sunday, somebody interpreted that on a Sunday, somebody interpreted that as "Oh, well, those are the Apache as "Oh, well, those are the Apache as "Oh, well, those are the Apache helicopters. That's the war that's helicopters. That's the war that's helicopters. That's the war that's happening in the Middle East right now." happening in the Middle East right now." happening in the Middle East right now." And that would be [clears throat] a And that would be [clears throat] a And that would be [clears throat] a literal interpretation. literal interpretation. literal interpretation. That would have meant nothing to That would have meant nothing to That would have meant nothing to somebody in the 1st century. That somebody in the 1st century. That somebody in the 1st century. That wouldn't have made any sense. How would wouldn't have made any sense. How would wouldn't have made any sense. How would the 1st century church have understood the 1st century church have understood the 1st century church have understood that? Well, locusts, there were multiple that? Well, locusts, there were multiple that? Well, locusts, there were multiple plagues of locusts in the Old Testament. plagues of locusts in the Old Testament. plagues of locusts in the Old Testament. It was seen as judgment. These locusts It was seen as judgment. These locusts It was seen as judgment. These locusts in Revelation 9, they got human faces, in Revelation 9, they got human faces, in Revelation 9, they got human faces, they got hair and teeth. That's real they got hair and teeth. That's real they got hair and teeth. That's real strange, except for if you know that the strange, except for if you know that the strange, except for if you know that the hair and teeth were symbols for foreign hair and teeth were symbols for foreign hair and teeth were symbols for foreign enemy conquerors that will come in with enemy conquerors that will come in with enemy conquerors that will come in with their armies. They were overtaking an their armies. They were overtaking an their armies. They were overtaking an unbelieving people of God. And you go, unbelieving people of God. And you go, unbelieving people of God. And you go, "Oh, that's God's judgment being brought "Oh, that's God's judgment being brought "Oh, that's God's judgment being brought through foreign oppressive nations." through foreign oppressive nations." through foreign oppressive nations." That happens all the time. And so, it's That happens all the time. And so, it's That happens all the time. And so, it's this taking the same symbol and there's this taking the same symbol and there's this taking the same symbol and there's so much more richness and meaning if you so much more richness and meaning if you so much more richness and meaning if you take it literarily versus if you take it take it literarily versus if you take it take it literarily versus if you take it literally. literally. literally. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And all throughout the book, there's And all throughout the book, there's And all throughout the book, there's characters, there's metaphors, characters, there's metaphors, characters, there's metaphors, and all of this used to make very clear and all of this used to make very clear and all of this used to make very clear theological points. One of the key theological points. One of the key theological points. One of the key things I think we approach the book with things I think we approach the book with things I think we approach the book with is the idea that the book was written is the idea that the book was written is the idea that the book was written for us, for us, for us, but it wasn't written directly to us.

but it wasn't written directly to us. but it wasn't written directly to us. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> So, let's let's talk about that. If this >> So, let's let's talk about that. If this >> So, let's let's talk about that. If this isn't a timeline for today's current isn't a timeline for today's current isn't a timeline for today's current events, then what is the actual purpose? events, then what is the actual purpose? events, then what is the actual purpose? >> What does it mean for us today? >> What does it mean for us today? >> What does it mean for us today? >> 2026, Mario, for you, like what does it >> 2026, Mario, for you, like what does it >> 2026, Mario, for you, like what does it mean for the church? What does it mean mean for the church? What does it mean mean for the church? What does it mean for us today? for us today? for us today? >> I can answer that in one word. Jesus. >> I can answer that in one word. Jesus. >> I can answer that in one word. Jesus. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I mean, this book >> I mean, this book >> I mean, this book >> a wrap on this episode. >> a wrap on this episode. >> a wrap on this episode. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> I mean, this book is all about Jesus. >> I mean, this book is all about Jesus. >> I mean, this book is all about Jesus. Everything points to Jesus. And the Everything points to Jesus. And the Everything points to Jesus. And the overarching narrative of scripture is overarching narrative of scripture is overarching narrative of scripture is that everything points us to Jesus. that everything points us to Jesus. that everything points us to Jesus. >> Let's say how. How does it How does it >> Let's say how. How does it How does it >> Let's say how. How does it How does it point to Jesus? point to Jesus? point to Jesus? >> Well, I I think >> Well, I I think >> Well, I I think Well, first of all, you see him Well, first of all, you see him Well, first of all, you see him throughout the whole book. I mean, we throughout the whole book. I mean, we throughout the whole book. I mean, we constantly go back to the throne room. constantly go back to the throne room. constantly go back to the throne room. He's there. You see him. Um but I think He's there. You see him. Um but I think He's there. You see him. Um but I think from a real practical standpoint, even from a real practical standpoint, even from a real practical standpoint, even the way in which John wrote Revelation, the way in which John wrote Revelation, the way in which John wrote Revelation, it begins with Jesus. And then chapters it begins with Jesus. And then chapters it begins with Jesus. And then chapters 2 and 3 are the letters to the churches, 2 and 3 are the letters to the churches, 2 and 3 are the letters to the churches, right? And that's like um right? And that's like um right? And that's like um really is really is really is this this this kind of kind of kind of It's They're like love letters, It's They're like love letters, It's They're like love letters, honestly. They might be difficult to honestly. They might be difficult to honestly. They might be difficult to hear, right? Cuz the churches are being hear, right? Cuz the churches are being hear, right? Cuz the churches are being rebuked for some of the things that rebuked for some of the things that rebuked for some of the things that they're doing, right? But in that, the they're doing, right? But in that, the they're doing, right? But in that, the rebuke is because he wants them ready rebuke is because he wants them ready rebuke is because he wants them ready for the persecution and the things that for the persecution and the things that for the persecution and the things that are coming. Because the bottom line is are coming. Because the bottom line is are coming. Because the bottom line is we live in the already not yet of the we live in the already not yet of the we live in the already not yet of the kingdom, right? Meaning that while Jesus

kingdom, right? Meaning that while Jesus kingdom, right? Meaning that while Jesus has come, we are still going to face um has come, we are still going to face um has come, we are still going to face um suffering, persecution, suffering, persecution, suffering, persecution, attacks from the enemy. Like, that is attacks from the enemy. Like, that is attacks from the enemy. Like, that is not going to go away until Jesus comes not going to go away until Jesus comes not going to go away until Jesus comes again. But we can be faithful in our again. But we can be faithful in our again. But we can be faithful in our discipleship. And so the letters set up discipleship. And so the letters set up discipleship. And so the letters set up like the get your house in order because like the get your house in order because like the get your house in order because I am coming back and I want more people I am coming back and I want more people I am coming back and I want more people I want your faithful witness and I want I want your faithful witness and I want I want your faithful witness and I want more people to choose to follow me more people to choose to follow me more people to choose to follow me before I come again. So it's this sort before I come again. So it's this sort before I come again. So it's this sort of both and, if you will, and it's it's of both and, if you will, and it's it's of both and, if you will, and it's it's beautiful because it's this is how God beautiful because it's this is how God beautiful because it's this is how God sees us even now. It's like Jesus is sees us even now. It's like Jesus is sees us even now. It's like Jesus is saying to the churches, I care about you saying to the churches, I care about you saying to the churches, I care about you enough to not leave you the way that you enough to not leave you the way that you enough to not leave you the way that you are. Come on. So that you might be ready are. Come on. So that you might be ready are. Come on. So that you might be ready for when I return. And it's the same for when I return. And it's the same for when I return. And it's the same it's the same for us. it's the same for us. it's the same for us. >> I would even go as far to say the >> I would even go as far to say the >> I would even go as far to say the original purpose of why John wrote to original purpose of why John wrote to original purpose of why John wrote to the seven churches 2,000 years ago is the seven churches 2,000 years ago is the seven churches 2,000 years ago is the exact same purpose of why it means the exact same purpose of why it means the exact same purpose of why it means something to us today. So what did the something to us today. So what did the something to us today. So what did the church need 2,000 years ago? They needed church need 2,000 years ago? They needed church need 2,000 years ago? They needed hope hope hope because their worlds were because their worlds were because their worlds were in utter chaos. I mean, you think about in utter chaos. I mean, you think about in utter chaos. I mean, you think about they were losing jobs, their friends they were losing jobs, their friends they were losing jobs, their friends were losing their lives, they were were losing their lives, they were were losing their lives, they were losing family members because of their losing family members because of their losing family members because of their faith. And you imagine faith. And you imagine faith. And you imagine suffering a persecution with that suffering a persecution with that suffering a persecution with that intensity. There's this temptation to go intensity. There's this temptation to go intensity. There's this temptation to go maybe I don't declare the name of Jesus.

maybe I don't declare the name of Jesus. maybe I don't declare the name of Jesus. Maybe I don't stand strong. Maybe maybe Maybe I don't stand strong. Maybe maybe Maybe I don't stand strong. Maybe maybe I just become a little bit more silent I just become a little bit more silent I just become a little bit more silent in my faith journey. in my faith journey. in my faith journey. You know, maybe I walk away. You know, maybe I walk away. You know, maybe I walk away. And sometimes in the hottest fires of And sometimes in the hottest fires of And sometimes in the hottest fires of life, all those temptations are real. life, all those temptations are real. life, all those temptations are real. And so John writes spoke to says And so John writes spoke to says And so John writes spoke to says don't forsake what matters most. Anchor don't forsake what matters most. Anchor don't forsake what matters most. Anchor your life to Jesus. No matter what your life to Jesus. No matter what your life to Jesus. No matter what happens in this life, happens in this life, happens in this life, you will be victorious in all of you will be victorious in all of you will be victorious in all of eternity when your life's attached to eternity when your life's attached to eternity when your life's attached to Jesus. The same message is needed today. Jesus. The same message is needed today. Jesus. The same message is needed today. I sit with people that just found out I sit with people that just found out I sit with people that just found out that they have terminal cancer. that they have terminal cancer. that they have terminal cancer. I sit with people who I sit with people who I sit with people who their child just died of a drug overdose their child just died of a drug overdose their child just died of a drug overdose and they're just in this intense season and they're just in this intense season and they're just in this intense season of hardship and suffering and there's of hardship and suffering and there's of hardship and suffering and there's this temptation of this temptation of this temptation of is God real? Does God care? Do I just is God real? Does God care? Do I just is God real? Does God care? Do I just walk away from walk away from walk away from all the hardship that I face? And I all the hardship that I face? And I all the hardship that I face? And I think Revelation reminds us, no, Jesus think Revelation reminds us, no, Jesus think Revelation reminds us, no, Jesus is still on the throne.

is still on the throne. is still on the throne. Jesus is still in control. He's still Jesus is still in control. He's still Jesus is still in control. He's still reigning. He's actually walking with you reigning. He's actually walking with you reigning. He's actually walking with you in it. So do not lose heart. Do not walk in it. So do not lose heart. Do not walk in it. So do not lose heart. Do not walk away. Do not forsake. Anchor your life away. Do not forsake. Anchor your life away. Do not forsake. Anchor your life to Jesus. There is victory in the end. to Jesus. There is victory in the end. to Jesus. There is victory in the end. And so the same message that was true, And so the same message that was true, And so the same message that was true, that the church needed desperately 2,000 that the church needed desperately 2,000 that the church needed desperately 2,000 years ago, is the same message we need years ago, is the same message we need years ago, is the same message we need so desperately today in a world that so desperately today in a world that so desperately today in a world that feels like it's out of control, feels like it's out of control, feels like it's out of control, Jesus is still in control. Anchor your Jesus is still in control. Anchor your Jesus is still in control. Anchor your life to him. life to him. life to him. >> I would say also, one of the on a >> I would say also, one of the on a >> I would say also, one of the on a personal note, one of the hazards of my personal note, one of the hazards of my personal note, one of the hazards of my job is having to be in the scriptures as job is having to be in the scriptures as job is having to be in the scriptures as much as I am. much as I am. much as I am. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Because the the amount of conviction and >> Because the the amount of conviction and >> Because the the amount of conviction and at times I'm just like, "Okay." at times I'm just like, "Okay." at times I'm just like, "Okay." But, having spent the amount of time in But, having spent the amount of time in But, having spent the amount of time in Revelation recently and dealing with the Revelation recently and dealing with the Revelation recently and dealing with the things of life that life keeps throwing things of life that life keeps throwing things of life that life keeps throwing our way right now in this season, our way right now in this season, our way right now in this season, the fact that like the fact that like the fact that like these churches were called to patient these churches were called to patient these churches were called to patient endurance and faithfulness, endurance and faithfulness, endurance and faithfulness, I'm reading that and I'm like, I'm reading that and I'm like, I'm reading that and I'm like, "Lord, you are near. I can do patient "Lord, you are near. I can do patient "Lord, you are near. I can do patient endurance and faithfulness.

endurance and faithfulness. endurance and faithfulness. This is hard this season. Gosh, I can't This is hard this season. Gosh, I can't This is hard this season. Gosh, I can't wait till I'm on the other side of it, wait till I'm on the other side of it, wait till I'm on the other side of it, but I can trust you. I know what the end but I can trust you. I know what the end but I can trust you. I know what the end is, and you will give me the strength I is, and you will give me the strength I is, and you will give me the strength I need for patient endurance and need for patient endurance and need for patient endurance and faithfulness. And if we read Revelation faithfulness. And if we read Revelation faithfulness. And if we read Revelation and don't and don't and don't see those see those see those >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> truths that God has for us and that love >> truths that God has for us and that love >> truths that God has for us and that love and that care, I I don't think we're and that care, I I don't think we're and that care, I I don't think we're reading exactly what John wanted for the reading exactly what John wanted for the reading exactly what John wanted for the churches. churches. churches. >> And you you think about the context he's >> And you you think about the context he's >> And you you think about the context he's writing from, writing from, writing from, um there is such hopelessness that's um there is such hopelessness that's um there is such hopelessness that's being experienced in the midst of what being experienced in the midst of what being experienced in the midst of what he's facing. he's facing. he's facing. And he writes in a way that he reveals And he writes in a way that he reveals And he writes in a way that he reveals that God can speak and work even in the that God can speak and work even in the that God can speak and work even in the most difficult of circumstances. most difficult of circumstances. most difficult of circumstances. Um you know, no matter what Um you know, no matter what Um you know, no matter what circumstances you find yourself in even circumstances you find yourself in even circumstances you find yourself in even today, again, that same message of hope today, again, that same message of hope today, again, that same message of hope resonates, that God can still work in resonates, that God can still work in resonates, that God can still work in the middle of all that. the middle of all that. the middle of all that. >> I think that's a beautiful thing. He >> I think that's a beautiful thing. He >> I think that's a beautiful thing. He paints paints paints as good as you can, uh as good as you can, uh as good as you can, uh that we're able as humans a captivating that we're able as humans a captivating that we're able as humans a captivating picture of who Jesus is and the power picture of who Jesus is and the power picture of who Jesus is and the power that he has and that's the reason they that he has and that's the reason they that he has and that's the reason they endure.

endure. endure. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> He catches a glimpse. >> He catches a glimpse. >> He catches a glimpse. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And he's like, "Whatever's going on >> And he's like, "Whatever's going on >> And he's like, "Whatever's going on pales in comparison to who our king is." pales in comparison to who our king is." pales in comparison to who our king is." And so I think that's the message that And so I think that's the message that And so I think that's the message that we need to walk away we need to walk away we need to walk away >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> from Revelation with is the power, the >> from Revelation with is the power, the >> from Revelation with is the power, the beauty, the majesty of Christ um because beauty, the majesty of Christ um because beauty, the majesty of Christ um because that's what's going to help us. I think that's what's going to help us. I think that's what's going to help us. I think about what John and all of them were about what John and all of them were about what John and all of them were going through. going through. going through. How hard would that be, right? How hard would that be, right? How hard would that be, right? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> So yeah, go ahead. >> So yeah, go ahead. >> So yeah, go ahead. >> One thing I'm hearing just from everyone >> One thing I'm hearing just from everyone >> One thing I'm hearing just from everyone that I'm being challenged by even right that I'm being challenged by even right that I'm being challenged by even right now is that we now is that we now is that we we ought to stop using the book of we ought to stop using the book of we ought to stop using the book of Revelation to try to predict tomorrow Revelation to try to predict tomorrow Revelation to try to predict tomorrow and just persevere today with hope. and just persevere today with hope. and just persevere today with hope. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> I mean it's game-changing for us when >> I mean it's game-changing for us when >> I mean it's game-changing for us when you know how the story ends. you know how the story ends. you know how the story ends. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It it changes how you see today. >> It it changes how you see today. >> It it changes how you see today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so uh I've shared this story before >> And so uh I've shared this story before >> And so uh I've shared this story before but I'm a big Cubs fan but I'm a big Cubs fan but I'm a big Cubs fan and in 2016 they ended their 108-year and in 2016 they ended their 108-year and in 2016 they ended their 108-year drought of winning the World Series. But drought of winning the World Series. But drought of winning the World Series. But game seven was one of the most intense game seven was one of the most intense game seven was one of the most intense experiences for me personally of that experiences for me personally of that experiences for me personally of that World Series. Uh I needed the little World Series. Uh I needed the little World Series. Uh I needed the little paddles in my house to revive me. I was paddles in my house to revive me. I was paddles in my house to revive me. I was uh having a heart attack multiple times.

uh having a heart attack multiple times. uh having a heart attack multiple times. It was We've seen the photos. It was so It was We've seen the photos. It was so It was We've seen the photos. It was so anxiety-ridden for me. It was so anxiety-ridden for me. It was so anxiety-ridden for me. It was so stressful. It was so intense. It was stressful. It was so intense. It was stressful. It was so intense. It was unbelievable. When they finally won it, unbelievable. When they finally won it, unbelievable. When they finally won it, like I I just I just buckled. Now what's like I I just I just buckled. Now what's like I I just I just buckled. Now what's fascinating about that is it was such a fascinating about that is it was such a fascinating about that is it was such a stressful experience watching it that stressful experience watching it that stressful experience watching it that first time. I've gone back and watched first time. I've gone back and watched first time. I've gone back and watched game seven a couple of times now. game seven a couple of times now. game seven a couple of times now. And And And I have a whole different experience I have a whole different experience I have a whole different experience watching it now. Why? Cuz I know how it watching it now. Why? Cuz I know how it watching it now. Why? Cuz I know how it ends. ends. ends. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think the same is true as as it >> And I think the same is true as as it >> And I think the same is true as as it relates to Revelation. You and I will relates to Revelation. You and I will relates to Revelation. You and I will experience all kinds of hardship and experience all kinds of hardship and experience all kinds of hardship and struggle and difficulty, things that struggle and difficulty, things that struggle and difficulty, things that should create all kinds of anxiety and should create all kinds of anxiety and should create all kinds of anxiety and stress in our lives. stress in our lives. stress in our lives. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> But we can experience that radically >> But we can experience that radically >> But we can experience that radically different because we know how it ends. different because we know how it ends. different because we know how it ends. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> We we don't like >> We we don't like >> We we don't like live for the victory, we live from it. live for the victory, we live from it. live for the victory, we live from it. And that the victory that we know is in And that the victory that we know is in And that the victory that we know is in Jesus allows me to navigate my present Jesus allows me to navigate my present Jesus allows me to navigate my present reality in a whole different way. This reality in a whole different way. This reality in a whole different way. This full of hope, it's full of promise. full of hope, it's full of promise. full of hope, it's full of promise. I can be confident. I can walk in I I can be confident. I can walk in I I can be confident. I can walk in I don't know exactly how this situation don't know exactly how this situation don't know exactly how this situation going to end.

going to end. going to end. But I know that God will ultimately make But I know that God will ultimately make But I know that God will ultimately make it right. it right. it right. >> Right. It's reminds me and Dwayne would >> Right. It's reminds me and Dwayne would >> Right. It's reminds me and Dwayne would probably probably know exactly this one. probably probably know exactly this one. probably probably know exactly this one. But that you know that you we've all But that you know that you we've all But that you know that you we've all heard about the Stockdale paradox heard about the Stockdale paradox heard about the Stockdale paradox before, right? And that being before, right? And that being before, right? And that being Stockdale was in the military and he was Stockdale was in the military and he was Stockdale was in the military and he was a prisoner of war, correct? And when he a prisoner of war, correct? And when he a prisoner of war, correct? And when he was interviewed afterwards, they asked, was interviewed afterwards, they asked, was interviewed afterwards, they asked, "Why do you think you survived and "Why do you think you survived and "Why do you think you survived and others did not?" And his quote was, "You others did not?" And his quote was, "You others did not?" And his quote was, "You must never confuse faith that you will must never confuse faith that you will must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end with the discipline prevail in the end with the discipline prevail in the end with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts to confront the most brutal facts to confront the most brutal facts current reality. And that's what current reality. And that's what current reality. And that's what Revelation does for us. We have faith in Revelation does for us. We have faith in Revelation does for us. We have faith in the end. Jesus is in control now and he the end. Jesus is in control now and he the end. Jesus is in control now and he is coming back. The brutal reality is is coming back. The brutal reality is is coming back. The brutal reality is this world is always going to fall short this world is always going to fall short this world is always going to fall short of God's perfect design. of God's perfect design. of God's perfect design. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And we but what God calls us to is to >> And we but what God calls us to is to >> And we but what God calls us to is to remain faithful. remain faithful. remain faithful. And and I think that's what Revelation And and I think that's what Revelation And and I think that's what Revelation shows us. shows us. shows us. >> Yeah, it's like I remember reading this >> Yeah, it's like I remember reading this >> Yeah, it's like I remember reading this for the first time for myself and there for the first time for myself and there for the first time for myself and there are a lot of people who are probably are a lot of people who are probably are a lot of people who are probably doing that. You're actually diving into doing that. You're actually diving into doing that. You're actually diving into this for the first time. And these three this for the first time. And these three this for the first time. And these three essential truths I walked away with, essential truths I walked away with, essential truths I walked away with, Jesus is alive.

Jesus is alive. Jesus is alive. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Jesus is in control, right? He's got >> Jesus is in control, right? He's got >> Jesus is in control, right? He's got this. And then lastly, Jesus is still this. And then lastly, Jesus is still this. And then lastly, Jesus is still with his people. with his people. with his people. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Um you know, John just found this sense >> Um you know, John just found this sense >> Um you know, John just found this sense of peace even in the middle of chaos of peace even in the middle of chaos of peace even in the middle of chaos because he recognized all three of those because he recognized all three of those because he recognized all three of those things were true. things were true. things were true. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Come on, man. >> Come on, man. >> Come on, man. >> I want to thank you guys for so much >> I want to thank you guys for so much >> I want to thank you guys for so much wisdom. I feel like it's just the just wisdom. I feel like it's just the just wisdom. I feel like it's just the just the tip of the iceberg on the the tip of the iceberg on the the tip of the iceberg on the conversations that we can have around conversations that we can have around conversations that we can have around this. And so, as you're diving in, as this. And so, as you're diving in, as this. And so, as you're diving in, as you're listening, as you're reading you're listening, as you're reading you're listening, as you're reading Revelation, our prayer is that you leave Revelation, our prayer is that you leave Revelation, our prayer is that you leave with deeper faith and hope and marvel at with deeper faith and hope and marvel at with deeper faith and hope and marvel at Jesus and who he is. And so, on our next Jesus and who he is. And so, on our next Jesus and who he is. And so, on our next episode, we're actually going to unpack episode, we're actually going to unpack episode, we're actually going to unpack the top 10 misconceptions about the top 10 misconceptions about the top 10 misconceptions about Revelation. Revelation. Revelation. Um that's where we're really going to Um that's where we're really going to Um that's where we're really going to test your knowledge. So, we can't wait test your knowledge. So, we can't wait test your knowledge. So, we can't wait to see you on the next episode.