E441 The Urgency of Grace in a Worn Out World with David Zahl

[Music] [Music] This is a Saddleback Church podcast. This is a Saddleback Church podcast. This is a Saddleback Church podcast. >> I want to start today's episode with >> I want to start today's episode with >> I want to start today's episode with an excerpt. an excerpt. an excerpt. Why do some of us experience Why do some of us experience Why do some of us experience Christianity as a burden rather than as Christianity as a burden rather than as Christianity as a burden rather than as a refuge? The answer, I am convinced, a refuge? The answer, I am convinced, a refuge? The answer, I am convinced, has to do with grace. Grace is the big has to do with grace. Grace is the big has to do with grace. Grace is the big relief at the heart of Christianity. relief at the heart of Christianity. relief at the heart of Christianity. When grace is downplayed or qualified, When grace is downplayed or qualified, When grace is downplayed or qualified, faith turns into a project and then a faith turns into a project and then a faith turns into a project and then a burden. burden. burden. Project religion, the ancient human Project religion, the ancient human Project religion, the ancient human enterprise of proving ourselves morally enterprise of proving ourselves morally enterprise of proving ourselves morally and spiritually worthy of God's love is and spiritually worthy of God's love is and spiritually worthy of God's love is everywhere. everywhere. everywhere. When anchored to grace, however, When anchored to grace, however, When anchored to grace, however, Christianity remains good news. More Christianity remains good news. More Christianity remains good news. More than that, faith becomes a source of than that, faith becomes a source of than that, faith becomes a source of energy rather than a drain. energy rather than a drain. energy rather than a drain. This was an excerpt from The Big Relief. This was an excerpt from The Big Relief. This was an excerpt from The Big Relief. And today I'm excited to talk about one And today I'm excited to talk about one And today I'm excited to talk about one of my favorite books of the year. As of my favorite books of the year. As of my favorite books of the year. As I've mentioned a few times on this I've mentioned a few times on this I've mentioned a few times on this podcast, I've been on a bit of a grace podcast, I've been on a bit of a grace podcast, I've been on a bit of a grace kick lately. Grace was something I knew kick lately. Grace was something I knew kick lately. Grace was something I knew about, but honestly hadn't spent a whole about, but honestly hadn't spent a whole about, but honestly hadn't spent a whole ton of time considering.

ton of time considering. ton of time considering. It's just the last few months though It's just the last few months though It's just the last few months though that I've really been sitting with grace that I've really been sitting with grace that I've really been sitting with grace and seeing just how beautiful, how how and seeing just how beautiful, how how and seeing just how beautiful, how how important it is. So, imagine my important it is. So, imagine my important it is. So, imagine my excitement when I saw a book about the excitement when I saw a book about the excitement when I saw a book about the urgency of grace in a worn out world. urgency of grace in a worn out world. urgency of grace in a worn out world. Right. Right up my alley. And then Right. Right up my alley. And then Right. Right up my alley. And then imagine how happy I was to start reading imagine how happy I was to start reading imagine how happy I was to start reading the book and seeing how good and how the book and seeing how good and how the book and seeing how good and how funny and engaging it is. So today I'm funny and engaging it is. So today I'm funny and engaging it is. So today I'm thrilled to have on David Zaw, author of thrilled to have on David Zaw, author of thrilled to have on David Zaw, author of many books, including The Big Relief. In many books, including The Big Relief. In many books, including The Big Relief. In this conversation, David and I talk this conversation, David and I talk this conversation, David and I talk about what makes grace stand out. We about what makes grace stand out. We about what makes grace stand out. We talk about the vertical and the talk about the vertical and the talk about the vertical and the horizontal nature of grace. We talk horizontal nature of grace. We talk horizontal nature of grace. We talk about the difference between grace and about the difference between grace and about the difference between grace and mercy, how the church can be better mercy, how the church can be better mercy, how the church can be better beacons of grace, and how to start beacons of grace, and how to start beacons of grace, and how to start living a grace first life today, and living a grace first life today, and living a grace first life today, and much more. My name is Jason Wheelland much more. My name is Jason Wheelland much more. My name is Jason Wheelland and this is doable disciplehip. Now my and this is doable disciplehip. Now my and this is doable disciplehip. Now my conversation with David Zaul.

All right, David Z, thank you for All right, David Z, thank you for joining me today. I'm really excited to joining me today. I'm really excited to joining me today. I'm really excited to talk about your new book, The Big talk about your new book, The Big talk about your new book, The Big Relief. Excited to talk about all things Relief. Excited to talk about all things Relief. Excited to talk about all things grace as and so I just want to say grace as and so I just want to say grace as and so I just want to say thanks for being here. thanks for being here. thanks for being here. >> Thanks for having me, Jason. It's It's >> Thanks for having me, Jason. It's It's >> Thanks for having me, Jason. It's It's great to be doing something like this in great to be doing something like this in great to be doing something like this in the middle of a hot hot summer to be the middle of a hot hot summer to be the middle of a hot hot summer to be connecting with someone across the connecting with someone across the connecting with someone across the country. country. country. >> Exactly. Right. Not a bad way to get to >> Exactly. Right. Not a bad way to get to >> Exactly. Right. Not a bad way to get to spend time inside with air condition. I spend time inside with air condition. I spend time inside with air condition. I mean, I have to turn my air conditioning mean, I have to turn my air conditioning mean, I have to turn my air conditioning off in here, otherwise it's too loud for off in here, otherwise it's too loud for off in here, otherwise it's too loud for the podcast, so hopefully it doesn't get the podcast, so hopefully it doesn't get the podcast, so hopefully it doesn't get uh too sweltering, but I think I I uh too sweltering, but I think I I uh too sweltering, but I think I I should be okay. I wanted to start our should be okay. I wanted to start our should be okay. I wanted to start our conversation with something that's even conversation with something that's even conversation with something that's even before the introduction of your book. before the introduction of your book. before the introduction of your book. you have a a quote um on on a page in you have a a quote um on on a page in you have a a quote um on on a page in the book right before the intro um the book right before the intro um the book right before the intro um that's by Jack Carowak and it really that's by Jack Carowak and it really that's by Jack Carowak and it really stuck out to me. Um a lot of times I I stuck out to me. Um a lot of times I I stuck out to me. Um a lot of times I I skip past those opening quotes, but this skip past those opening quotes, but this skip past those opening quotes, but this one I I read and it really stuck out to one I I read and it really stuck out to one I I read and it really stuck out to me. It says, "Nothing else in the world me. It says, "Nothing else in the world me. It says, "Nothing else in the world matters but the kindness of grace, God's matters but the kindness of grace, God's matters but the kindness of grace, God's gift to suffering mortals." So, what did gift to suffering mortals." So, what did gift to suffering mortals." So, what did this quote inspire in you?

this quote inspire in you? this quote inspire in you? Gosh. Well, okay. So, the quote the New Gosh. Well, okay. So, the quote the New Gosh. Well, okay. So, the quote the New York Public Library about um 10 12 years York Public Library about um 10 12 years York Public Library about um 10 12 years ago did a big exhibition on Carowak. And ago did a big exhibition on Carowak. And ago did a big exhibition on Carowak. And Carowak is a Carowak is a Carowak is a >> a character, you know, he was he's known >> a character, you know, he was he's known >> a character, you know, he was he's known as the beatnick. He's known as the the as the beatnick. He's known as the the as the beatnick. He's known as the the beat poet. He's known for on the road. beat poet. He's known for on the road. beat poet. He's known for on the road. He's known for He's known for He's known for >> um you know, even the Dharma bums. He's >> um you know, even the Dharma bums. He's >> um you know, even the Dharma bums. He's known for sort of being a bit of a known for sort of being a bit of a known for sort of being a bit of a Buddhist, but he was also he had a very Buddhist, but he was also he had a very Buddhist, but he was also he had a very serious conversion to Christianity. he serious conversion to Christianity. he serious conversion to Christianity. he was more of a Roman Catholic, but was more of a Roman Catholic, but was more of a Roman Catholic, but >> he's also a person that struggled with >> he's also a person that struggled with >> he's also a person that struggled with alcohol. Um, and he had away with words. alcohol. Um, and he had away with words. alcohol. Um, and he had away with words. And this was a little epigraph or a And this was a little epigraph or a And this was a little epigraph or a little quote that was in one of his little quote that was in one of his little quote that was in one of his journal pages that was displayed at the journal pages that was displayed at the journal pages that was displayed at the New York Public Library and it kind of New York Public Library and it kind of New York Public Library and it kind of stopped me in my tracks because I've stopped me in my tracks because I've stopped me in my tracks because I've always been attracted to um to the grace always been attracted to um to the grace always been attracted to um to the grace of God as a as a Christian. But to hear, of God as a as a Christian. But to hear, of God as a as a Christian. But to hear, you know, I think there's something that you know, I think there's something that you know, I think there's something that I I enjoy finding I I enjoy finding I I enjoy finding um sort of unexpected voices saying um sort of unexpected voices saying um sort of unexpected voices saying things that kind of hit you sideways um things that kind of hit you sideways um things that kind of hit you sideways um in a way that you're not expecting. So, in a way that you're not expecting. So, in a way that you're not expecting. So, I wasn't expecting that from Jack I wasn't expecting that from Jack I wasn't expecting that from Jack Carowak that day.

Carowak that day. Carowak that day. >> But I think of I think there's um the >> But I think of I think there's um the >> But I think of I think there's um the the kindness of grace uh that that comes the kindness of grace uh that that comes the kindness of grace uh that that comes from God issuing to suffering mortals. from God issuing to suffering mortals. from God issuing to suffering mortals. the the assumption is that you and I who the the assumption is that you and I who the the assumption is that you and I who must die um you know at least that's you must die um you know at least that's you must die um you know at least that's you know in in this life uh will end know in in this life uh will end know in in this life uh will end >> and uh the fact that we are all in >> and uh the fact that we are all in >> and uh the fact that we are all in there's a there's a um assumption that there's a there's a um assumption that there's a there's a um assumption that we're all suffering we're all suffering we're all suffering >> and that is not always the assumption >> and that is not always the assumption >> and that is not always the assumption about people there's uh there's a about people there's uh there's a about people there's uh there's a there's a clarity I think grace is um of there's a clarity I think grace is um of there's a clarity I think grace is um of in my book in my book in my book position is something very urgent. Yeah, position is something very urgent. Yeah, position is something very urgent. Yeah, >> he's saying it's the main thing. It's >> he's saying it's the main thing. It's >> he's saying it's the main thing. It's the it's the most nothing else matters. the it's the most nothing else matters. the it's the most nothing else matters. There's a there's maybe a slight There's a there's maybe a slight There's a there's maybe a slight hyperbole there. Um but, you know, when hyperbole there. Um but, you know, when hyperbole there. Um but, you know, when you get down to it, if God is real, then you get down to it, if God is real, then you get down to it, if God is real, then the question is what is God's, you know, the question is what is God's, you know, the question is what is God's, you know, disposition towards you and me? And not disposition towards you and me? And not disposition towards you and me? And not just, not actually, not you. I I want to just, not actually, not you. I I want to just, not actually, not you. I I want to know what God's suspicion is towards me.

know what God's suspicion is towards me. know what God's suspicion is towards me. And I want to know, does God care about And I want to know, does God care about And I want to know, does God care about my suffering? Does God care about me? my suffering? Does God care about me? my suffering? Does God care about me? Does God meet me with judgment uh with a Does God meet me with judgment uh with a Does God meet me with judgment uh with a wagging finger? Or does God greet me wagging finger? Or does God greet me wagging finger? Or does God greet me with open arms, with forgiveness and with open arms, with forgiveness and with open arms, with forgiveness and embrace? embrace? embrace? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so, Carowak says it all in those >> And so, Carowak says it all in those >> And so, Carowak says it all in those very few words. I mean, it's it's a very few words. I mean, it's it's a very few words. I mean, it's it's a bumper sticker almost that is not a bumper sticker almost that is not a bumper sticker almost that is not a that's too profound to be a bumper that's too profound to be a bumper that's too profound to be a bumper sticker. And uh yeah, I love the fact sticker. And uh yeah, I love the fact sticker. And uh yeah, I love the fact that I think um you and I we were that I think um you and I we were that I think um you and I we were talking about um recovery and people who talking about um recovery and people who talking about um recovery and people who are recovering from addiction and he's a are recovering from addiction and he's a are recovering from addiction and he's a person for whom person for whom person for whom >> uh his his his addictions his sub >> uh his his his addictions his sub >> uh his his his addictions his sub substances were larger than he was and substances were larger than he was and substances were larger than he was and they clobbered him in a lot of ways and they clobbered him in a lot of ways and they clobbered him in a lot of ways and so um sometimes people who understand so um sometimes people who understand so um sometimes people who understand addiction understand the extremes of addiction understand the extremes of addiction understand the extremes of life. They live in extremes. Yeah. life. They live in extremes. Yeah. life. They live in extremes. Yeah. >> And um they of therefore they see God as >> And um they of therefore they see God as >> And um they of therefore they see God as savior. God as God can do. He can do for savior. God as God can do. He can do for savior. God as God can do. He can do for you what you cannot do for yourself. And you what you cannot do for yourself. And you what you cannot do for yourself. And um therefore God's grace is not just a um therefore God's grace is not just a um therefore God's grace is not just a nice thing. It's everything. And um so I nice thing. It's everything. And um so I nice thing. It's everything. And um so I I like the clarity. I wanted to put it I like the clarity. I wanted to put it I like the clarity. I wanted to put it front and center. I wanted blinking front and center. I wanted blinking front and center. I wanted blinking lights around it. And the fact that it's lights around it. And the fact that it's lights around it. And the fact that it's Jack Carowak saying it just uh catches Jack Carowak saying it just uh catches Jack Carowak saying it just uh catches you off guard a little bit in a way that you off guard a little bit in a way that you off guard a little bit in a way that I hope the book um sort of gets around I hope the book um sort of gets around I hope the book um sort of gets around people's defenses.

people's defenses. people's defenses. >> Well, to me, yeah, I think it it paints >> Well, to me, yeah, I think it it paints >> Well, to me, yeah, I think it it paints the broad picture going all the way back the broad picture going all the way back the broad picture going all the way back to Eden where it's, you know, where to Eden where it's, you know, where to Eden where it's, you know, where where God creates this, you know, this where God creates this, you know, this where God creates this, you know, this perfect place, this world. He he's perfect place, this world. He he's perfect place, this world. He he's walking through the garden with Adam and walking through the garden with Adam and walking through the garden with Adam and Eve. They're living in in harmonious Eve. They're living in in harmonious Eve. They're living in in harmonious relationship with each other. And then relationship with each other. And then relationship with each other. And then that breaks and with it comes not just that breaks and with it comes not just that breaks and with it comes not just brokenness but brokenness but brokenness but but toil and suffering and sin and but toil and suffering and sin and but toil and suffering and sin and disease and all of the illnesses of disease and all of the illnesses of disease and all of the illnesses of life. All the hardness of life really life. All the hardness of life really life. All the hardness of life really start, you know, takes root from that start, you know, takes root from that start, you know, takes root from that moment on. moment on. moment on. >> Death, >> Death, >> Death, >> death, death. And so, so that's where >> death, death. And so, so that's where >> death, death. And so, so that's where that gift of grace, you know, is is so that gift of grace, you know, is is so that gift of grace, you know, is is so is so prevalent because God could have is so prevalent because God could have is so prevalent because God could have made the decision. He's like, "Ah, they made the decision. He's like, "Ah, they made the decision. He's like, "Ah, they ruined it. I I'm I'm done with this. I ruined it. I I'm I'm done with this. I ruined it. I I'm I'm done with this. I thought I wanted a family. I don't. I'm thought I wanted a family. I don't. I'm thought I wanted a family. I don't. I'm done with it." You know, whatever. But done with it." You know, whatever. But done with it." You know, whatever. But instead, he offers grace. Instead, instead, he offers grace. Instead, instead, he offers grace. Instead, that's the remedy of it. And and that's that's the remedy of it. And and that's that's the remedy of it. And and that's what you see all throughout then what you see all throughout then what you see all throughout then scripture is God's hand of grace. God's scripture is God's hand of grace. God's scripture is God's hand of grace. God's hand of grace. God's hand of grace. And hand of grace. God's hand of grace. And hand of grace. God's hand of grace. And then that's what we continue to see in then that's what we continue to see in then that's what we continue to see in our own lives. Yes, we have suffering, our own lives. Yes, we have suffering, our own lives. Yes, we have suffering, but we also sin. We also, you know, uh, but we also sin. We also, you know, uh, but we also sin. We also, you know, uh, you know, uh, engage in our brokenness you know, uh, engage in our brokenness you know, uh, engage in our brokenness in that way. Um, but in that way. Um, but in that way. Um, but God still gives the gift of grace. Grace God still gives the gift of grace. Grace God still gives the gift of grace. Grace which ultimately will lead to eternal which ultimately will lead to eternal which ultimately will lead to eternal life in heaven. Um, and so death

life in heaven. Um, and so death life in heaven. Um, and so death therefore, yes, was a was a result of therefore, yes, was a was a result of therefore, yes, was a was a result of brokenness, but it's also now we can see brokenness, but it's also now we can see brokenness, but it's also now we can see it as a gift of grace because of our it as a gift of grace because of our it as a gift of grace because of our future home in heaven instead of living future home in heaven instead of living future home in heaven instead of living in brokenness forever. So, I've been on in brokenness forever. So, I've been on in brokenness forever. So, I've been on this grace kick lately. I mentioned to this grace kick lately. I mentioned to this grace kick lately. I mentioned to you as we were emailing back and forth you as we were emailing back and forth you as we were emailing back and forth is I hadn't spent a whole lot of time is I hadn't spent a whole lot of time is I hadn't spent a whole lot of time mulling over grace. Um, I had spent more mulling over grace. Um, I had spent more mulling over grace. Um, I had spent more time probably on the mercy side of time probably on the mercy side of time probably on the mercy side of things or or on the love side of things. things or or on the love side of things. things or or on the love side of things. But when I started thinking about grace, But when I started thinking about grace, But when I started thinking about grace, just like the quote was saying is I'm just like the quote was saying is I'm just like the quote was saying is I'm like, man, this is really more and more like, man, this is really more and more like, man, this is really more and more of like everything is painted with a of like everything is painted with a of like everything is painted with a grace picture if you look at it. And the grace picture if you look at it. And the grace picture if you look at it. And the role of grace um in God's relationship role of grace um in God's relationship role of grace um in God's relationship to us is so powerful and so strong. And to us is so powerful and so strong. And to us is so powerful and so strong. And I don't think we give the word grace I don't think we give the word grace I don't think we give the word grace enough credence in society right now as enough credence in society right now as enough credence in society right now as we probably should. we probably should. we probably should. >> Yeah. I think grace is generally people >> Yeah. I think grace is generally people >> Yeah. I think grace is generally people it's still generally a positive thing in it's still generally a positive thing in it's still generally a positive thing in people's lives I think but but it it people's lives I think but but it it people's lives I think but but it it means very different things to different means very different things to different means very different things to different people.

people. people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> For me that word gift is is very much a >> For me that word gift is is very much a >> For me that word gift is is very much a corollary and when we you look at Paul's corollary and when we you look at Paul's corollary and when we you look at Paul's letters gift and grace are almost letters gift and grace are almost letters gift and grace are almost interchangeable but gift grace um interchangeable but gift grace um interchangeable but gift grace um >> I I I think I forget if I wrote in the >> I I I think I forget if I wrote in the >> I I I think I forget if I wrote in the book but I I do think it's true that book but I I do think it's true that book but I I do think it's true that sometimes we don't even know what grace sometimes we don't even know what grace sometimes we don't even know what grace is. We just know we want more of it. is. We just know we want more of it. is. We just know we want more of it. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Um and uh especially for people who are >> Um and uh especially for people who are >> Um and uh especially for people who are yes who are not only suffering but are yes who are not only suffering but are yes who are not only suffering but are complicit in our suffering and bring complicit in our suffering and bring complicit in our suffering and bring things upon ourselves and our own worst things upon ourselves and our own worst things upon ourselves and our own worst enemies and our sinners in need of enemies and our sinners in need of enemies and our sinners in need of redemption. That that's that that we redemption. That that's that that we redemption. That that's that that we have no reason to expect have no reason to expect have no reason to expect that God would um meet our need with that God would um meet our need with that God would um meet our need with gratuitity, with abundance, with love, gratuitity, with abundance, with love, gratuitity, with abundance, with love, with forgiveness, with absolution. all with forgiveness, with absolution. all with forgiveness, with absolution. all these things that I feel like kind of these things that I feel like kind of these things that I feel like kind of can be can fall under the umbrella of can be can fall under the umbrella of can be can fall under the umbrella of grace. It's it's the wonderful grace. It's it's the wonderful grace. It's it's the wonderful energizing animating surprise uh that we energizing animating surprise uh that we energizing animating surprise uh that we find in Jesus. Um that God is not find in Jesus. Um that God is not find in Jesus. Um that God is not um um um that God gives us the opposite of what that God gives us the opposite of what that God gives us the opposite of what we deserve, you might say. and and God we deserve, you might say. and and God we deserve, you might say. and and God is not an employer who is out there to is not an employer who is out there to is not an employer who is out there to uh penalize us but um who pays the uh penalize us but um who pays the uh penalize us but um who pays the penalty himself and and so that so that penalty himself and and so that so that penalty himself and and so that so that >> our relationship to him might be one >> our relationship to him might be one >> our relationship to him might be one that is defined by his grace.

that is defined by his grace. that is defined by his grace. You know the way that you and I treat You know the way that you and I treat You know the way that you and I treat each other I I I would love for people each other I I I would love for people each other I I I would love for people to be more gracious with one another. I to be more gracious with one another. I to be more gracious with one another. I think you have a uh commonly agreed upon think you have a uh commonly agreed upon think you have a uh commonly agreed upon uh diagnosis that we live in a pretty uh diagnosis that we live in a pretty uh diagnosis that we live in a pretty graceless society. graceless society. graceless society. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, you get what you deserve, you >> You know, you get what you deserve, you >> You know, you get what you deserve, you get what you pay for and no more, no get what you pay for and no more, no get what you pay for and no more, no less. less. less. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um the good people get the good stuff, >> Um the good people get the good stuff, >> Um the good people get the good stuff, the bad people get the bad stuff. And um the bad people get the bad stuff. And um the bad people get the bad stuff. And um and certainly there are crowds of people and certainly there are crowds of people and certainly there are crowds of people ready to ready to ready to uh shame and uh you know condemn. Uh if uh shame and uh you know condemn. Uh if uh shame and uh you know condemn. Uh if you've ever really messed up in a public you've ever really messed up in a public you've ever really messed up in a public way, you find that the natural response way, you find that the natural response way, you find that the natural response of the human heart tends not to be of the human heart tends not to be of the human heart tends not to be gracious. Uh it especially if you're the gracious. Uh it especially if you're the gracious. Uh it especially if you're the person who's been hurt, person who's been hurt, person who's been hurt, >> but it does this miraculous news that >> but it does this miraculous news that >> but it does this miraculous news that God somehow in Christ is God somehow in Christ is God somehow in Christ is is is is full of grace and truth and is is is full of grace and truth and is is is full of grace and truth and that that's these are the defining that that's these are the defining that that's these are the defining elements of who he's who he actually is elements of who he's who he actually is elements of who he's who he actually is revealing himself to be. some I think we revealing himself to be. some I think we revealing himself to be. some I think we can domesticate that and we can get too can domesticate that and we can get too can domesticate that and we can get too used to it when it's really um beyond used to it when it's really um beyond used to it when it's really um beyond the bounds of what um we we have any the bounds of what um we we have any the bounds of what um we we have any reason to expect.

reason to expect. reason to expect. >> Well, I Yes, 100%. And I think >> Well, I Yes, 100%. And I think >> Well, I Yes, 100%. And I think expectation is such an it's such a hard expectation is such an it's such a hard expectation is such an it's such a hard thing with people because for some thing with people because for some thing with people because for some reason we expect reason we expect reason we expect not perfection but close to from the not perfection but close to from the not perfection but close to from the other people in our lives is we expect other people in our lives is we expect other people in our lives is we expect people you know to you know to not mess people you know to you know to not mess people you know to you know to not mess up to be their you know best people all up to be their you know best people all up to be their you know best people all the time. But if we mess up, if we're the time. But if we mess up, if we're the time. But if we mess up, if we're late to something, if we lied about late to something, if we lied about late to something, if we lied about something, if we, you know, whatever, we something, if we, you know, whatever, we something, if we, you know, whatever, we made a choice. We expect grace from made a choice. We expect grace from made a choice. We expect grace from other people. Well, what do you mean? It other people. Well, what do you mean? It other people. Well, what do you mean? It was just this, you know, whatever. But was just this, you know, whatever. But was just this, you know, whatever. But if you're, but you expect, you know, the if you're, but you expect, you know, the if you're, but you expect, you know, the high standards of other people. So, I do high standards of other people. So, I do high standards of other people. So, I do think which is so is so interesting for think which is so is so interesting for think which is so is so interesting for for us as a people specifically talking for us as a people specifically talking for us as a people specifically talking about Christians now who have this about Christians now who have this about Christians now who have this worldview. Other people may not have worldview. Other people may not have worldview. Other people may not have this worldview but um but as Christians this worldview but um but as Christians this worldview but um but as Christians we should which is that we are you know we should which is that we are you know we should which is that we are you know yes all image bearsers all created in yes all image bearsers all created in yes all image bearsers all created in the in the image of God uh all loved by the in the image of God uh all loved by the in the image of God uh all loved by God. So in that sense you know we are God. So in that sense you know we are God. So in that sense you know we are all on a level playing field in that way all on a level playing field in that way all on a level playing field in that way especially because we all have sin in especially because we all have sin in especially because we all have sin in our lives. We all do things every day our lives. We all do things every day our lives. We all do things every day that mess us up, that break our that mess us up, that break our that mess us up, that break our relationship, you know, all that, all relationship, you know, all that, all relationship, you know, all that, all that stuff. All of our brokenness, lived that stuff. All of our brokenness, lived that stuff. All of our brokenness, lived out, out, out, and yet we still have a hard time and yet we still have a hard time and yet we still have a hard time offering grace to each other for offering grace to each other for offering grace to each other for whatever reason. Uh, we still could live whatever reason. Uh, we still could live whatever reason. Uh, we still could live at this expectation that for some reason

at this expectation that for some reason at this expectation that for some reason we're not or, you know, that person we're not or, you know, that person we're not or, you know, that person shouldn't be broken. That person should shouldn't be broken. That person should shouldn't be broken. That person should be good and I should be able to expect be good and I should be able to expect be good and I should be able to expect the best from them all the time and what the best from them all the time and what the best from them all the time and what and and whatnot. Even though I know I and and whatnot. Even though I know I and and whatnot. Even though I know I mess up all the time, too. So, it's this mess up all the time, too. So, it's this mess up all the time, too. So, it's this weird reality weird reality weird reality >> that we kind of live ourselves, that we >> that we kind of live ourselves, that we >> that we kind of live ourselves, that we find ourselves in, find ourselves in, find ourselves in, >> as you said, this graceless >> as you said, this graceless >> as you said, this graceless way of our society right now. And it's way of our society right now. And it's way of our society right now. And it's really, it's sad. And I think about this really, it's sad. And I think about this really, it's sad. And I think about this a lot. I was I was I was giving a talk a lot. I was I was I was giving a talk a lot. I was I was I was giving a talk to my team a couple of weeks ago about to my team a couple of weeks ago about to my team a couple of weeks ago about Christmas. Yes, we're already planning Christmas. Yes, we're already planning Christmas. Yes, we're already planning for Christmas because on the comm's for Christmas because on the comm's for Christmas because on the comm's team, we have to plan that far out. Um team, we have to plan that far out. Um team, we have to plan that far out. Um uh but I was talking about how like as a uh but I was talking about how like as a uh but I was talking about how like as a husband and as a parent, I've had to husband and as a parent, I've had to husband and as a parent, I've had to really relearn about grace. really relearn about grace. really relearn about grace. >> And it's not it's not so about I need to >> And it's not it's not so about I need to >> And it's not it's not so about I need to give my kids and my wife more grace. give my kids and my wife more grace. give my kids and my wife more grace. It's about I I I need I I I need more It's about I I I need I I I need more It's about I I I need I I I need more grace from I need to know that that I grace from I need to know that that I grace from I need to know that that I need grace all the time because I mess need grace all the time because I mess need grace all the time because I mess up all the time in those arenas. And you up all the time in those arenas. And you up all the time in those arenas. And you know, so I think there's something about know, so I think there's something about know, so I think there's something about how we enter into our relationships, our how we enter into our relationships, our how we enter into our relationships, our closest relationships often is the like closest relationships often is the like closest relationships often is the like the deepest arena for grace working out.

the deepest arena for grace working out. the deepest arena for grace working out. for me learning how to give my little for me learning how to give my little for me learning how to give my little kids grace who aren't fully formed kids grace who aren't fully formed kids grace who aren't fully formed humans yet, you know, who don't have who humans yet, you know, who don't have who humans yet, you know, who don't have who don't have emotional don't have emotional don't have emotional registers in their brains yet to know registers in their brains yet to know registers in their brains yet to know that it's not okay to get upset or I I that it's not okay to get upset or I I that it's not okay to get upset or I I shouldn't need to get upset about this shouldn't need to get upset about this shouldn't need to get upset about this or whatever it is. Or or I need grace or whatever it is. Or or I need grace or whatever it is. Or or I need grace for my wife when I lose it with the kids for my wife when I lose it with the kids for my wife when I lose it with the kids and I get all frustrated and and and she and I get all frustrated and and and she and I get all frustrated and and and she offers me grace and I need to learn how offers me grace and I need to learn how offers me grace and I need to learn how to receive that instead of get defensive to receive that instead of get defensive to receive that instead of get defensive or push back or whatever. Um, but it's or push back or whatever. Um, but it's or push back or whatever. Um, but it's it's a fascinating thing that that that it's a fascinating thing that that that it's a fascinating thing that that that the overflow of grace that we get from the overflow of grace that we get from the overflow of grace that we get from God is what shows up in our lives. So, God is what shows up in our lives. So, God is what shows up in our lives. So, um, I think we need to be a lot more um, I think we need to be a lot more um, I think we need to be a lot more cognizant of that that it comes from up cognizant of that that it comes from up cognizant of that that it comes from up down and then we spread it out and we down and then we spread it out and we down and then we spread it out and we receive it back in and back up and what receive it back in and back up and what receive it back in and back up and what and um, all that. This is a long-winded and um, all that. This is a long-winded and um, all that. This is a long-winded way of saying that I think we need to do way of saying that I think we need to do way of saying that I think we need to do a much better job at relational grace.

a much better job at relational grace. a much better job at relational grace. >> Yeah, it's I mean it's it's true. What's >> Yeah, it's I mean it's it's true. What's >> Yeah, it's I mean it's it's true. What's what's what's funny I think or that's what's what's funny I think or that's what's what's funny I think or that's undeniably true is that the deepest undeniably true is that the deepest undeniably true is that the deepest relationships we have tend to be ones relationships we have tend to be ones relationships we have tend to be ones that are that are informed by grace. that are that are informed by grace. that are that are informed by grace. What I mean is that the person you marry What I mean is that the person you marry What I mean is that the person you marry is usually not the person you feel is is usually not the person you feel is is usually not the person you feel is grading you. They're the person who's grading you. They're the person who's grading you. They're the person who's seen you kind of at your worst or at seen you kind of at your worst or at seen you kind of at your worst or at your they know they know your blind your they know they know your blind your they know they know your blind spots and they stick around. They love spots and they stick around. They love spots and they stick around. They love you still. Like that's you still. Like that's you still. Like that's >> that's when that's where you know a a >> that's when that's where you know a a >> that's when that's where you know a a marriage is really born is not the marriage is really born is not the marriage is really born is not the moments where you're both at your best moments where you're both at your best moments where you're both at your best but the moments when you see oh but the moments when you see oh but the moments when you see oh >> look oh my I've just realized what what >> look oh my I've just realized what what >> look oh my I've just realized what what her family's actually like or you know her family's actually like or you know her family's actually like or you know or I've just she was I was just so short or I've just she was I was just so short or I've just she was I was just so short with with my kids and yet somehow with with my kids and yet somehow with with my kids and yet somehow they've they still love me like the and they've they still love me like the and they've they still love me like the and and the best mentors and bosses we have and the best mentors and bosses we have and the best mentors and bosses we have are the ones that somehow we feel we can are the ones that somehow we feel we can are the ones that somehow we feel we can come to even with our when we when we come to even with our when we when we come to even with our when we when we mess up um with our vulnerability, with mess up um with our vulnerability, with mess up um with our vulnerability, with our real selves, with our true selves.

our real selves, with our true selves. our real selves, with our true selves. Ultimately, I hope that's how we come to Ultimately, I hope that's how we come to Ultimately, I hope that's how we come to God. Not with a sanitized, curated, God. Not with a sanitized, curated, God. Not with a sanitized, curated, polished version, but we come to God polished version, but we come to God polished version, but we come to God with the truth about who we are and what with the truth about who we are and what with the truth about who we are and what we need and that God is gracious. But, we need and that God is gracious. But, we need and that God is gracious. But, uh easier said than done. You know, I uh easier said than done. You know, I uh easier said than done. You know, I think that the way that the only way think that the way that the only way think that the way that the only way that I I find that u grace is uh pours that I I find that u grace is uh pours that I I find that u grace is uh pours out in relationships is is uh we love out in relationships is is uh we love out in relationships is is uh we love because we've first been loved. you because we've first been loved. you because we've first been loved. you know, we we we we show grace to the know, we we we we show grace to the know, we we we we show grace to the extent that we've received grace. And extent that we've received grace. And extent that we've received grace. And you see this in the New Testament with, you see this in the New Testament with, you see this in the New Testament with, you know, she who's been forgiven much you know, she who's been forgiven much you know, she who's been forgiven much loves much. I mean, this is loves much. I mean, this is loves much. I mean, this is >> Jesus uh type of uh uh >> Jesus uh type of uh uh >> Jesus uh type of uh uh it's it's the Jesus way. I mean, there's it's it's the Jesus way. I mean, there's it's it's the Jesus way. I mean, there's there's no there's no there's no >> but it's it's hard, you know, when >> but it's it's hard, you know, when >> but it's it's hard, you know, when someone's really hurt us and and um someone's really hurt us and and um someone's really hurt us and and um sometimes we have a harder time showing sometimes we have a harder time showing sometimes we have a harder time showing grace towards those who are closest to grace towards those who are closest to grace towards those who are closest to us as well. I mean, it's it's it's us as well. I mean, it's it's it's us as well. I mean, it's it's it's complicated. I I just know that at the complicated. I I just know that at the complicated. I I just know that at the end of the day, my faith is not in other end of the day, my faith is not in other end of the day, my faith is not in other people's ability to be gracious, but in people's ability to be gracious, but in people's ability to be gracious, but in God's abiding grace towards me God's abiding grace towards me God's abiding grace towards me when I have been, you know, when I when I have been, you know, when I when I have been, you know, when I deserved censure or something like that.

deserved censure or something like that. deserved censure or something like that. >> That's where vertical the vertical >> That's where vertical the vertical >> That's where vertical the vertical >> informs the horizontal. And um that's >> informs the horizontal. And um that's >> informs the horizontal. And um that's why um I do want to shout at the world why um I do want to shout at the world why um I do want to shout at the world just like just show each other more just like just show each other more just like just show each other more grace. But of course that's like does grace. But of course that's like does grace. But of course that's like does that ever make people more loving or that ever make people more loving or that ever make people more loving or don't each other you've got to love me don't each other you've got to love me don't each other you've got to love me you know that doesn't you know that doesn't you know that doesn't >> that's right so your book is titled the >> that's right so your book is titled the >> that's right so your book is titled the big relief and I wanted to mention big relief and I wanted to mention big relief and I wanted to mention because because you talk in each chapter because because you talk in each chapter because because you talk in each chapter is talking about a relief from something is talking about a relief from something is talking about a relief from something from deserving regret rejection control from deserving regret rejection control from deserving regret rejection control guilt status anxiety guilt status anxiety guilt status anxiety productivity captivity ity and death. productivity captivity ity and death. productivity captivity ity and death. So, how is grace the big relief um in So, how is grace the big relief um in So, how is grace the big relief um in for all of these struggles and you know for all of these struggles and you know for all of these struggles and you know the disease of life? the disease of life? the disease of life? >> Yeah. Well, every time I'm I'm writing a >> Yeah. Well, every time I'm I'm writing a >> Yeah. Well, every time I'm I'm writing a book, I want to sort of speak from my book, I want to sort of speak from my book, I want to sort of speak from my own uh need and uh from a place of like own uh need and uh from a place of like own uh need and uh from a place of like authentic lived experience.

authentic lived experience. authentic lived experience. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and in a way that I see is resonating >> Um and in a way that I see is resonating >> Um and in a way that I see is resonating with my peers and the sort of spiritual with my peers and the sort of spiritual with my peers and the sort of spiritual landscape out there. I'm a person that I landscape out there. I'm a person that I landscape out there. I'm a person that I work part of part-time at a church. So, work part of part-time at a church. So, work part of part-time at a church. So, I'm I'm I'm dialed fairly dialed into I'm I'm I'm dialed fairly dialed into I'm I'm I'm dialed fairly dialed into what folks are dealing with, Christians what folks are dealing with, Christians what folks are dealing with, Christians as well as non-Christians. And I see a as well as non-Christians. And I see a as well as non-Christians. And I see a lot of pressure out there. I see that lot of pressure out there. I see that lot of pressure out there. I see that people are just sort of I I noticed with people are just sort of I I noticed with people are just sort of I I noticed with this book, I kept hearing people this book, I kept hearing people this book, I kept hearing people describe good things in their life as a describe good things in their life as a describe good things in their life as a relief, you know. Um I found a relief, you know. Um I found a relief, you know. Um I found a babysitter. It was such a relief. I've babysitter. It was such a relief. I've babysitter. It was such a relief. I've you know, we're getting to go on you know, we're getting to go on you know, we're getting to go on sabbatical. It's such a relief, you sabbatical. It's such a relief, you sabbatical. It's such a relief, you know. I I I became a Christian and it's know. I I I became a Christian and it's know. I I I became a Christian and it's been such a relief to have a been such a relief to have a been such a relief to have a relationship with God, you know, and um relationship with God, you know, and um relationship with God, you know, and um it's like this ambient noise that it's like this ambient noise that it's like this ambient noise that there's so much of a treadmill and a there's so much of a treadmill and a there's so much of a treadmill and a pressure to be under. And so, as a as a pressure to be under. And so, as a as a pressure to be under. And so, as a as a the more I heard it, the more I think, the more I heard it, the more I think, the more I heard it, the more I think, gosh, people are dying for relief. I'm gosh, people are dying for relief. I'm gosh, people are dying for relief. I'm dying for relief. I feel like I'm always dying for relief. I feel like I'm always dying for relief. I feel like I'm always on as a parent, as a as a writer, as a on as a parent, as a as a writer, as a on as a parent, as a as a writer, as a pastor. I'm on I'm more and more is pastor. I'm on I'm more and more is pastor. I'm on I'm more and more is being asked of me. What feels like every being asked of me. What feels like every being asked of me. What feels like every year as I get older as a as a as a as a year as I get older as a as a as a as a year as I get older as a as a as a as a husband, as a father, as a you know, husband, as a father, as a you know, husband, as a father, as a you know, just my mortgage company's asking.

just my mortgage company's asking. just my mortgage company's asking. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so I wanted to for me grow >> And so I wanted to for me grow >> And so I wanted to for me grow Christianity, my faith has been a source Christianity, my faith has been a source Christianity, my faith has been a source of enormous not just hope and not um but of enormous not just hope and not um but of enormous not just hope and not um but but relief. And so to think of in what but relief. And so to think of in what but relief. And so to think of in what in what sense is is the gospel in what sense is is the gospel in what sense is is the gospel that God is not only real but God loves that God is not only real but God loves that God is not only real but God loves you and and has died and risen again um you and and has died and risen again um you and and has died and risen again um so that he might relate to you. Um in so that he might relate to you. Um in so that he might relate to you. Um in what sense is that relief? What is that what sense is that relief? What is that what sense is that relief? What is that relief from? It does that intersect with relief from? It does that intersect with relief from? It does that intersect with the pressures that we live under? Yes, the pressures that we live under? Yes, the pressures that we live under? Yes, we live under enormous weight of burden we live under enormous weight of burden we live under enormous weight of burden of condemnation and not enoughness and of condemnation and not enoughness and of condemnation and not enoughness and accusation and the pressure to always be accusation and the pressure to always be accusation and the pressure to always be performing, always be producing. And performing, always be producing. And performing, always be producing. And here you have the gospel saying actually here you have the gospel saying actually here you have the gospel saying actually it is finished. you are um I God loves it is finished. you are um I God loves it is finished. you are um I God loves you not because of necessarily who you you not because of necessarily who you you not because of necessarily who you are but because of who God is, you know, are but because of who God is, you know, are but because of who God is, you know, and and and that is um a bedrock upon and and and that is um a bedrock upon and and and that is um a bedrock upon which you can build your life. And that which you can build your life. And that which you can build your life. And that you can approach your life um no longer you can approach your life um no longer you can approach your life um no longer as as a resume to build or a app a pro as as a resume to build or a app a pro as as a resume to build or a app a pro approving or earning exercise, but as an approving or earning exercise, but as an approving or earning exercise, but as an abundance, as a chance to serve your abundance, as a chance to serve your abundance, as a chance to serve your neighbor as you've been served, to love neighbor as you've been served, to love neighbor as you've been served, to love other people as you've been loved by other people as you've been loved by other people as you've been loved by God, to forgive as you've been forgiven.

God, to forgive as you've been forgiven. God, to forgive as you've been forgiven. Like I find that so I I basically was Like I find that so I I basically was Like I find that so I I basically was saying I I thought to myself, people are saying I I thought to myself, people are saying I I thought to myself, people are under a lot of pressure. They're under under a lot of pressure. They're under under a lot of pressure. They're under more pressure than they even realize. more pressure than they even realize. more pressure than they even realize. They're dying for relief. In what sense They're dying for relief. In what sense They're dying for relief. In what sense does Christianity offer relief? Well, does Christianity offer relief? Well, does Christianity offer relief? Well, when grace is foregrounded, when we when when grace is foregrounded, when we when when grace is foregrounded, when we when we lead or when when when when the good we lead or when when when when the good we lead or when when when when the good news of God's grace, the kindness of news of God's grace, the kindness of news of God's grace, the kindness of God's grace, the gift of grace is is is God's grace, the gift of grace is is is God's grace, the gift of grace is is is um underlined. Well, then Christianity um underlined. Well, then Christianity um underlined. Well, then Christianity can become is it often serves as a um can become is it often serves as a um can become is it often serves as a um vehicle of spiritual, existential and um vehicle of spiritual, existential and um vehicle of spiritual, existential and um emotional emotional emotional relief in real in real time. relief in real in real time. relief in real in real time. >> I I think that's so much of the beauty >> I I think that's so much of the beauty >> I I think that's so much of the beauty of the gospel is, of the gospel is, of the gospel is, you know, God doesn't just say, I have you know, God doesn't just say, I have you know, God doesn't just say, I have come to give you life, you know, and come to give you life, you know, and come to give you life, you know, and life to the fullest in meaning about life to the fullest in meaning about life to the fullest in meaning about heaven. It's not just talking about heaven. It's not just talking about heaven. It's not just talking about eternal life. It's not like It's not eternal life. It's not like It's not eternal life. It's not like It's not like Jesus is is doing his ministry. like Jesus is is doing his ministry. like Jesus is is doing his ministry. He's walking around and saying, "Guys, He's walking around and saying, "Guys, He's walking around and saying, "Guys, sorry you have to, you know, really sorry you have to, you know, really sorry you have to, you know, really suffer through this awful life, but suffer through this awful life, but suffer through this awful life, but just, you know, heaven, you know, like just, you know, heaven, you know, like just, you know, heaven, you know, like it's it's it's >> just wait.

>> just wait. >> just wait. Go ahead." Yeah. Yeah. Just wait. Yeah. Go ahead." Yeah. Yeah. Just wait. Yeah. Go ahead." Yeah. Yeah. Just wait. Yeah. It's not like It's not like that. He's It's not like It's not like that. He's It's not like It's not like that. He's saying, "No, I I've come to give you saying, "No, I I've come to give you saying, "No, I I've come to give you life now." like you know there is there life now." like you know there is there life now." like you know there is there is the goodness of life the the life in is the goodness of life the the life in is the goodness of life the the life in which God created you for is available which God created you for is available which God created you for is available to you now and that's you know and we to you now and that's you know and we to you now and that's you know and we see that in grace we see that in the see that in grace we see that in the see that in grace we see that in the fruit of the spirit we see that in how fruit of the spirit we see that in how fruit of the spirit we see that in how God designed us to you know to live in God designed us to you know to live in God designed us to you know to live in relationship with each other that's the relationship with each other that's the relationship with each other that's the whole point behind love go with all your whole point behind love go with all your whole point behind love go with all your heart mind strength and love your heart mind strength and love your heart mind strength and love your neighbor as yourself is you can do these neighbor as yourself is you can do these neighbor as yourself is you can do these things and enjoy the richness the things and enjoy the richness the things and enjoy the richness the fullness of life. fullness of life. fullness of life. These things, you know, these diseases These things, you know, these diseases These things, you know, these diseases of life are real. Regret, rejection, of life are real. Regret, rejection, of life are real. Regret, rejection, guilt, like those are things that come guilt, like those are things that come guilt, like those are things that come up in our life. I doubt there's a single up in our life. I doubt there's a single up in our life. I doubt there's a single person who wouldn't say that they, you person who wouldn't say that they, you person who wouldn't say that they, you know, know, know, resonate with any of these chapters from resonate with any of these chapters from resonate with any of these chapters from your book, with any of these diseases of your book, with any of these diseases of your book, with any of these diseases of life life life >> because they're so because that's just a >> because they're so because that's just a >> because they're so because that's just a part of the human condition is we find part of the human condition is we find part of the human condition is we find ourselves, you know, in wanting to be ourselves, you know, in wanting to be ourselves, you know, in wanting to be productive in shame and guilt and all productive in shame and guilt and all productive in shame and guilt and all these, you know, things that come as a these, you know, things that come as a these, you know, things that come as a result of brokenness. But you do such a result of brokenness. But you do such a result of brokenness. But you do such a beautiful job of talking about how beautiful job of talking about how beautiful job of talking about how grace, you know, and forgiveness and grace, you know, and forgiveness and grace, you know, and forgiveness and favor and surrender, atonement, favor and surrender, atonement, favor and surrender, atonement, imputation, rest, play, rescue. So these imputation, rest, play, rescue. So these imputation, rest, play, rescue. So these are the rest of the chapter titles. Uh are the rest of the chapter titles. Uh are the rest of the chapter titles. Uh how these things are the gifts of God.

how these things are the gifts of God. how these things are the gifts of God. These are the reliefs, these gifts, These are the reliefs, these gifts, These are the reliefs, these gifts, these these grace points from God to these these grace points from God to these these grace points from God to counteract these things. He's saying, I counteract these things. He's saying, I counteract these things. He's saying, I know that you will feel guilt in life. know that you will feel guilt in life. know that you will feel guilt in life. >> And you know, and there is such a thing >> And you know, and there is such a thing >> And you know, and there is such a thing as healthy guilt. you want to have, you as healthy guilt. you want to have, you as healthy guilt. you want to have, you know, guilt for your, you know, and sin know, guilt for your, you know, and sin know, guilt for your, you know, and sin and whatnot, but I don't want you to and whatnot, but I don't want you to and whatnot, but I don't want you to live a life of guilt. So, because of live a life of guilt. So, because of live a life of guilt. So, because of that, I'm going to offer atonement, you that, I'm going to offer atonement, you that, I'm going to offer atonement, you know, and and I want you to live a life know, and and I want you to live a life know, and and I want you to live a life that is rested in atonement. And the that is rested in atonement. And the that is rested in atonement. And the same thing with, you know, rest. Like, same thing with, you know, rest. Like, same thing with, you know, rest. Like, you may feel like you need to keep up in you may feel like you need to keep up in you may feel like you need to keep up in society with the people around you that society with the people around you that society with the people around you that you may try to, you know, climb the you may try to, you know, climb the you may try to, you know, climb the ladder of ambition and all this stuff, ladder of ambition and all this stuff, ladder of ambition and all this stuff, but in me, I want to give you the gift but in me, I want to give you the gift but in me, I want to give you the gift of rest. of rest. of rest. >> And that's that's grace. All of these >> And that's that's grace. All of these >> And that's that's grace. All of these things are grace gifts for us if we are things are grace gifts for us if we are things are grace gifts for us if we are to receive them. to receive them. to receive them. >> Well, that's a beautiful way of putting >> Well, that's a beautiful way of putting >> Well, that's a beautiful way of putting it that that's what I'm trying to do. it that that's what I'm trying to do. it that that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah. I'm trying to say that the word Yeah. I'm trying to say that the word Yeah. I'm trying to say that the word grace is such a large word. It's such a grace is such a large word. It's such a grace is such a large word. It's such a profound word. profound word. profound word. >> Huge. >> Huge. >> Huge. >> There's so many different dimensions to >> There's so many different dimensions to >> There's so many different dimensions to it. And I try to dry out about nine of it. And I try to dry out about nine of it. And I try to dry out about nine of these dimensions because there'll be these dimensions because there'll be these dimensions because there'll be times.

times. times. >> I love it. >> I love it. >> I love it. >> When when you Yeah. when you are in the >> When when you Yeah. when you are in the >> When when you Yeah. when you are in the guilty seat and you are consumed by guilty seat and you are consumed by guilty seat and you are consumed by something bad that you've done and you something bad that you've done and you something bad that you've done and you will the the idea that God has has has will the the idea that God has has has will the the idea that God has has has has has atoned has made has has has has has atoned has made has has has has has atoned has made has has has reconciled has somehow sort of made reconciled has somehow sort of made reconciled has somehow sort of made right what you've done wrong that's right what you've done wrong that's right what you've done wrong that's going to speak to you but if you're a going to speak to you but if you're a going to speak to you but if you're a person who um is dealing with uh the person who um is dealing with uh the person who um is dealing with uh the enormous weight of the past just and enormous weight of the past just and enormous weight of the past just and just just your past just wish you you just just your past just wish you you just just your past just wish you you had done things differently Yeah, had done things differently Yeah, had done things differently Yeah, >> you're going to hear that that >> you're going to hear that that >> you're going to hear that that forgiveness and new life is going to be forgiveness and new life is going to be forgiveness and new life is going to be something that's exciting to you. If if something that's exciting to you. If if something that's exciting to you. If if you're someone who's very anxious about you're someone who's very anxious about you're someone who's very anxious about where you stand and is can't stop where you stand and is can't stop where you stand and is can't stop measuring yourself against other people, measuring yourself against other people, measuring yourself against other people, the idea that God the the the grace as the idea that God the the the grace as the idea that God the the the grace as uh God's gift of identity, God says you uh God's gift of identity, God says you uh God's gift of identity, God says you are actually I make you are made are actually I make you are made are actually I make you are made righteous. righteous. righteous. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Through my death and resurrection. like >> Through my death and resurrection. like >> Through my death and resurrection. like that's going to speak to you. And and of that's going to speak to you. And and of that's going to speak to you. And and of course, if you're dying, if you're, you course, if you're dying, if you're, you course, if you're dying, if you're, you know, 85 and and you're you're getting know, 85 and and you're you're getting know, 85 and and you're you're getting ready to to to to shuffle off this ready to to to to shuffle off this ready to to to to shuffle off this mortal coil, the um proclamation mortal coil, the um proclamation mortal coil, the um proclamation that death is not the end, that Christ that death is not the end, that Christ that death is not the end, that Christ has defeated death, and that there is has defeated death, and that there is has defeated death, and that there is rescue for you from the captivity of sin rescue for you from the captivity of sin rescue for you from the captivity of sin and the world and the death and the and the world and the death and the and the world and the death and the flesh and the devil. like that's going flesh and the devil. like that's going flesh and the devil. like that's going to be a profoundly relieving to be a profoundly relieving to be a profoundly relieving um announcement. And so I wanted to just

um announcement. And so I wanted to just um announcement. And so I wanted to just draw out these things in different yeah draw out these things in different yeah draw out these things in different yeah >> different flavors and knowing that some >> different flavors and knowing that some >> different flavors and knowing that some will hit people at different times and will hit people at different times and will hit people at different times and in different ways in different ways in different ways >> um without ever getting too far away >> um without ever getting too far away >> um without ever getting too far away from my own experience of God. from my own experience of God. from my own experience of God. >> For sure. It's like holding up this >> For sure. It's like holding up this >> For sure. It's like holding up this diamond of grace and you get to see from diamond of grace and you get to see from diamond of grace and you get to see from all the facets of all the things that all the facets of all the things that all the facets of all the things that grace has to offer. So, I think a common grace has to offer. So, I think a common grace has to offer. So, I think a common question that people have with with question that people have with with question that people have with with grace, I know I've had it too, is so grace, I know I've had it too, is so grace, I know I've had it too, is so what's the difference between grace and what's the difference between grace and what's the difference between grace and mercy? And how do we and how do we uh mercy? And how do we and how do we uh mercy? And how do we and how do we uh identify these as two uh different identify these as two uh different identify these as two uh different offerings? offerings? offerings? >> Sure. I I think, you know, I've always >> Sure. I I think, you know, I've always >> Sure. I I think, you know, I've always understood the difference the way that understood the difference the way that understood the difference the way that um Tim Keller talked about it. uh you um Tim Keller talked about it. uh you um Tim Keller talked about it. uh you know if someone comes into your house know if someone comes into your house know if someone comes into your house and uh breaks and if if I go into your and uh breaks and if if I go into your and uh breaks and if if I go into your house Jason and I break your your lamp house Jason and I break your your lamp house Jason and I break your your lamp and because I'm kicking a a soccer ball and because I'm kicking a a soccer ball and because I'm kicking a a soccer ball around around around >> and uh there's a you say don't don't >> and uh there's a you say don't don't >> and uh there's a you say don't don't worry about it like that I don't need to worry about it like that I don't need to worry about it like that I don't need to get another lamp you know I will get another lamp you know I will get another lamp you know I will >> um that is that is that is mercy I'm not >> um that is that is that is mercy I'm not >> um that is that is that is mercy I'm not going to do anything about it uh if you going to do anything about it uh if you going to do anything about it uh if you buy me a lamp as a result if you if you buy me a lamp as a result if you if you buy me a lamp as a result if you if you if you do the opposite. So so grace is if you do the opposite. So so grace is if you do the opposite. So so grace is mercy is like not doing what someone mercy is like not doing what someone mercy is like not doing what someone deserves. Yeah.

deserves. Yeah. deserves. Yeah. >> Not not not repaying an eye for an eye, >> Not not not repaying an eye for an eye, >> Not not not repaying an eye for an eye, breaking the cycle of reciprocity and breaking the cycle of reciprocity and breaking the cycle of reciprocity and circular exchange. circular exchange. circular exchange. >> Grace is doing the opposite. So you >> Grace is doing the opposite. So you >> Grace is doing the opposite. So you instead instead of being penalized, you instead instead of being penalized, you instead instead of being penalized, you are rewarded. Like that is what grace are rewarded. Like that is what grace are rewarded. Like that is what grace looks like. And that's why it's too good looks like. And that's why it's too good looks like. And that's why it's too good to be true. That's why it it it breaks to be true. That's why it it it breaks to be true. That's why it it it breaks all the circuits in our brains because all the circuits in our brains because all the circuits in our brains because it just goes against the grain. It's too it just goes against the grain. It's too it just goes against the grain. It's too those who are sunk in sin and death. God those who are sunk in sin and death. God those who are sunk in sin and death. God says, "I have not only brought you says, "I have not only brought you says, "I have not only brought you forgiveness, but I've come to bring you forgiveness, but I've come to bring you forgiveness, but I've come to bring you resurrection." Like that is there's so resurrection." Like that is there's so resurrection." Like that is there's so grace is like this extra step. It's like grace is like this extra step. It's like grace is like this extra step. It's like the kind of cherry on top, if you will. the kind of cherry on top, if you will. the kind of cherry on top, if you will. It's um it's the it's the surprise It's um it's the it's the surprise It's um it's the it's the surprise that's not just a lack of consequence. that's not just a lack of consequence. that's not just a lack of consequence. It's the presence of reward. Um It's the presence of reward. Um It's the presence of reward. Um >> and I don't I I try to tell like a >> and I don't I I try to tell like a >> and I don't I I try to tell like a gazillion stories about how this plays gazillion stories about how this plays gazillion stories about how this plays out. Um out. Um out. Um >> but I I in in the book the book is >> but I I in in the book the book is >> but I I in in the book the book is really trying to get at the heart as really trying to get at the heart as really trying to get at the heart as well as talk about well as talk about well as talk about >> the head. Um >> the head. Um >> the head. Um >> yeah.

>> yeah. >> yeah. >> No, I think that's I think that's >> No, I think that's I think that's >> No, I think that's I think that's helpful. I've just I' I've heard the helpful. I've just I' I've heard the helpful. I've just I' I've heard the question asked many times of what's the question asked many times of what's the question asked many times of what's the how do you define the difference and it how do you define the difference and it how do you define the difference and it was always a bit hard but yes you know a was always a bit hard but yes you know a was always a bit hard but yes you know a mercy is not getting what you may mercy is not getting what you may mercy is not getting what you may deserve you know the punishment and deserve you know the punishment and deserve you know the punishment and grace is is being given what you don't grace is is being given what you don't grace is is being given what you don't deserve deserve deserve >> kind of thing there's like an active >> kind of thing there's like an active >> kind of thing there's like an active element to it rather than just a non element to it rather than just a non element to it rather than just a non acting part of not rather than a passive acting part of not rather than a passive acting part of not rather than a passive element to it but I also at the same element to it but I also at the same element to it but I also at the same time like I like both grace and mercy time like I like both grace and mercy time like I like both grace and mercy you know like it's it's a you know like it's it's a you know like it's it's a >> well they kind of hand in hand a little >> well they kind of hand in hand a little >> well they kind of hand in hand a little bit you bit you bit you How does love interact with these three How does love interact with these three How does love interact with these three words? Like you can get you can go into words? Like you can get you can go into words? Like you can get you can go into semantic rabbit holes, but I think semantic rabbit holes, but I think semantic rabbit holes, but I think basically grace is this sort of the the basically grace is this sort of the the basically grace is this sort of the the the positive surprise uh that you get the positive surprise uh that you get the positive surprise uh that you get what you don't deserve. what you don't deserve. what you don't deserve. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um and that or there are possib positive >> Um and that or there are possib positive >> Um and that or there are possib positive possibilities beyond what you can see or possibilities beyond what you can see or possibilities beyond what you can see or imagine. imagine. imagine. So I wanted to talk a little bit too So I wanted to talk a little bit too So I wanted to talk a little bit too about I don't know if I would call it about I don't know if I would call it about I don't know if I would call it the elephant in the room but uh you know the elephant in the room but uh you know the elephant in the room but uh you know a topic that if you are not a believer a topic that if you are not a believer a topic that if you are not a believer and you find yourself listening to this and you find yourself listening to this and you find yourself listening to this podcast uh that you may be wondering podcast uh that you may be wondering podcast uh that you may be wondering which is I would imagine that if you which is I would imagine that if you which is I would imagine that if you pulled non-Christians pulled non-Christians pulled non-Christians I would imag a decent percentage of them I would imag a decent percentage of them I would imag a decent percentage of them would probably say that what they know would probably say that what they know would probably say that what they know of church or of Christianity or of church or of Christianity or of church or of Christianity or Christians is that it's It's too Christians is that it's It's too Christians is that it's It's too demanding, it's too shaming, it causes, demanding, it's too shaming, it causes, demanding, it's too shaming, it causes, you know, harm because of these things

you know, harm because of these things you know, harm because of these things that it's not a place of grace that they that it's not a place of grace that they that it's not a place of grace that they would say, you know, no, it's a place to would say, you know, no, it's a place to would say, you know, no, it's a place to it's a place to feel bad about yourself it's a place to feel bad about yourself it's a place to feel bad about yourself and then try to make yourself feel and then try to make yourself feel and then try to make yourself feel better uh because of that. Um, so why better uh because of that. Um, so why better uh because of that. Um, so why hasn't the church done a better, you hasn't the church done a better, you hasn't the church done a better, you know, the big C church done a better job know, the big C church done a better job know, the big C church done a better job at being beacons of grace? And how do at being beacons of grace? And how do at being beacons of grace? And how do you think the you know church can do you think the you know church can do you think the you know church can do better at that? better at that? better at that? >> Well, I think the first thing is to >> Well, I think the first thing is to >> Well, I think the first thing is to never deny people's experience of the never deny people's experience of the never deny people's experience of the church being a a location of of judgment church being a a location of of judgment church being a a location of of judgment rather than grace. It it's it's rather than grace. It it's it's rather than grace. It it's it's indisputable that that's um indisputable that that's um indisputable that that's um whenever whenever whenever human beings are drawn towards certainty human beings are drawn towards certainty human beings are drawn towards certainty and power and the consolidation of and power and the consolidation of and power and the consolidation of influence and whenever the church gets influence and whenever the church gets influence and whenever the church gets caught up in those sorts of games, it caught up in those sorts of games, it caught up in those sorts of games, it tends to resemble the opposite of what tends to resemble the opposite of what tends to resemble the opposite of what its message is. I think the miracle of its message is. I think the miracle of its message is. I think the miracle of the church is not so much that it is um the church is not so much that it is um the church is not so much that it is um the miracle of the church is that the miracle of the church is that the miracle of the church is that It seems like every hundred years, every It seems like every hundred years, every It seems like every hundred years, every 50 years, you sort of people actually 50 years, you sort of people actually 50 years, you sort of people actually read the words of Jesus. They they they read the words of Jesus. They they they read the words of Jesus. They they they read the scriptures again and they're read the scriptures again and they're read the scriptures again and they're like, "Wait a second. I don't think this like, "Wait a second. I don't think this like, "Wait a second. I don't think this whole thing is actually about us whole thing is actually about us whole thing is actually about us building an empire. I don't think the building an empire. I don't think the building an empire. I don't think the whole thing is about people getting whole thing is about people getting whole thing is about people getting better all the time. I or or or just better all the time. I or or or just better all the time. I or or or just just being good at good.

just being good at good. just being good at good. >> I think there's something deeper here. I >> I think there's something deeper here. I >> I think there's something deeper here. I think it has to do with grace, think it has to do with grace, think it has to do with grace, forgiveness, absolution, resurrection, forgiveness, absolution, resurrection, forgiveness, absolution, resurrection, reconciliation, and hope. Like there reconciliation, and hope. Like there reconciliation, and hope. Like there there's there's there's that's the um the miracle is that we that's the um the miracle is that we that's the um the miracle is that we continue to come back to that. Uh how continue to come back to that. Uh how continue to come back to that. Uh how does the church do it? I mean, I think does the church do it? I mean, I think does the church do it? I mean, I think you can never um as Christians, you can never um as Christians, you can never um as Christians, we must never get too disconnected from we must never get too disconnected from we must never get too disconnected from our own need for forgiveness. our own need for forgiveness. our own need for forgiveness. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like if you have an inflated view of >> Like if you have an inflated view of >> Like if you have an inflated view of what Christians are like, they will what Christians are like, they will what Christians are like, they will really disappoint you. If you have an really disappoint you. If you have an really disappoint you. If you have an inflated view of what God is like, that inflated view of what God is like, that inflated view of what God is like, that will that will always you you will um will that will always you you will um will that will always you you will um you will always be surprised like like you will always be surprised like like you will always be surprised like like God is gracious in a way that Christians God is gracious in a way that Christians God is gracious in a way that Christians aren't in the way that the church isn't. aren't in the way that the church isn't. aren't in the way that the church isn't. But when Christians are coming together But when Christians are coming together But when Christians are coming together out of shared need to point to the one out of shared need to point to the one out of shared need to point to the one who is gracious, that's when the who is gracious, that's when the who is gracious, that's when the communities of um you know just love and communities of um you know just love and communities of um you know just love and just and and and abundant holy just and and and abundant holy just and and and abundant holy spirit-driven uh service uh crop up when spirit-driven uh service uh crop up when spirit-driven uh service uh crop up when they become when they start pointing to they become when they start pointing to they become when they start pointing to themselves. It and their own goodness.

themselves. It and their own goodness. themselves. It and their own goodness. it quickly becomes a an environment of it quickly becomes a an environment of it quickly becomes a an environment of suspicion and monitoring and kind of uh suspicion and monitoring and kind of uh suspicion and monitoring and kind of uh blame and uh scrutiny and th those are blame and uh scrutiny and th those are blame and uh scrutiny and th those are those are but that you see that over and those are but that you see that over and those are but that you see that over and over again. But the miracle is that that over again. But the miracle is that that over again. But the miracle is that that that's not all we have. I mean my that's not all we have. I mean my that's not all we have. I mean my understanding of church really is that understanding of church really is that understanding of church really is that it's the it's the um your your local it's the it's the um your your local it's the it's the um your your local pastor is your forgiveness person. you pastor is your forgiveness person. you pastor is your forgiveness person. you know, they're the people that that's know, they're the people that that's know, they're the people that that's where you go to get to to be forgiven where you go to get to to be forgiven where you go to get to to be forgiven and to be honest about who you are and to be honest about who you are and to be honest about who you are >> and to wave the white flag of surrender. >> and to wave the white flag of surrender. >> and to wave the white flag of surrender. And uh sometimes recovery groups And uh sometimes recovery groups And uh sometimes recovery groups understand this a little better than understand this a little better than understand this a little better than people in the church do cuz it's just people in the church do cuz it's just people in the church do cuz it's just it's just very tempting to look to it's just very tempting to look to it's just very tempting to look to ourselves as the um as the one to have ourselves as the um as the one to have ourselves as the um as the one to have faith in and rather than to Jesus who is faith in and rather than to Jesus who is faith in and rather than to Jesus who is the perfector of our faith. And uh so the perfector of our faith. And uh so the perfector of our faith. And uh so it's a complicated question. I just it's a complicated question. I just it's a complicated question. I just don't think at this point in my life. I don't think at this point in my life. I don't think at this point in my life. I also don't see any other alternatives also don't see any other alternatives also don't see any other alternatives that are doing somehow a better job.

that are doing somehow a better job. that are doing somehow a better job. Like I don't I spent a lot of time in Like I don't I spent a lot of time in Like I don't I spent a lot of time in non-Christians non-Christians non-Christians circles and institutions. And I didn't circles and institutions. And I didn't circles and institutions. And I didn't find certainly didn't find them to be find certainly didn't find them to be find certainly didn't find them to be sort of radically forgiving in some sort of radically forgiving in some sort of radically forgiving in some sort. sort. sort. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. they just they they can look glamorous they just they they can look glamorous they just they they can look glamorous to people sometimes within the church. to people sometimes within the church. to people sometimes within the church. But um at least here we have the But um at least here we have the But um at least here we have the theoretical basis of uh of um grace as theoretical basis of uh of um grace as theoretical basis of uh of um grace as being the the the being the the the being the the the last word that God has. Um, and I mean last word that God has. Um, and I mean last word that God has. Um, and I mean because but because Christians believe because but because Christians believe because but because Christians believe in right and wrong and because we in right and wrong and because we in right and wrong and because we believe that that God is we we didn't believe that that God is we we didn't believe that that God is we we didn't create ourselves and that we're not the create ourselves and that we're not the create ourselves and that we're not the center of the universe. Like that can be center of the universe. Like that can be center of the universe. Like that can be offensive to people and sometimes that offensive to people and sometimes that offensive to people and sometimes that that's that's something that it's okay that's that's something that it's okay that's that's something that it's okay for people to be offended by. I don't for people to be offended by. I don't for people to be offended by. I don't think that's the end of the world. But think that's the end of the world. But think that's the end of the world. But um when the when the predominant message um when the when the predominant message um when the when the predominant message when the headline when the headline when the headline >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> is that you must be good somehow or that >> is that you must be good somehow or that >> is that you must be good somehow or that Christianity is for good people. Y Christianity is for good people. Y Christianity is for good people. Y >> no, no, it's it's Christianity is the >> no, no, it's it's Christianity is the >> no, no, it's it's Christianity is the International League of the Guilty. It International League of the Guilty. It International League of the Guilty. It is the It is a hypocrites club, you is the It is a hypocrites club, you is the It is a hypocrites club, you know, but it's better to be I'd rather know, but it's better to be I'd rather know, but it's better to be I'd rather not it's a what a relief it is to to be not it's a what a relief it is to to be not it's a what a relief it is to to be honest about the fact, hey, I am not I'm honest about the fact, hey, I am not I'm honest about the fact, hey, I am not I'm not God. I need God. Yeah. And um I've not God. I need God. Yeah. And um I've not God. I need God. Yeah. And um I've I've in my life Christianity in the I've in my life Christianity in the I've in my life Christianity in the church has by and large with some church has by and large with some church has by and large with some exceptions but by and large has been a exceptions but by and large has been a exceptions but by and large has been a dispensary of grace reliable place to dispensary of grace reliable place to dispensary of grace reliable place to hear about God to uh experience to

hear about God to uh experience to hear about God to uh experience to worship God with fellow believers and to worship God with fellow believers and to worship God with fellow believers and to um you know to be honest about myself um you know to be honest about myself um you know to be honest about myself and to sort of you know uh receive the and to sort of you know uh receive the and to sort of you know uh receive the gift that is is that has been given and gift that is is that has been given and gift that is is that has been given and is being given and will be given. is being given and will be given. is being given and will be given. Yeah, I would say, you know, there's, Yeah, I would say, you know, there's, Yeah, I would say, you know, there's, you know, there can be a stereotype that you know, there can be a stereotype that you know, there can be a stereotype that presents itself of the Christian who's presents itself of the Christian who's presents itself of the Christian who's all buttoned up and wants everything to all buttoned up and wants everything to all buttoned up and wants everything to be per, you know, and presents be per, you know, and presents be per, you know, and presents themselves as as high and mighty or themselves as as high and mighty or themselves as as high and mighty or holier than thou a little bit, but we holier than thou a little bit, but we holier than thou a little bit, but we don't have to, you know, fall into that don't have to, you know, fall into that don't have to, you know, fall into that stereotype is is that doesn't have to be stereotype is is that doesn't have to be stereotype is is that doesn't have to be true. It's a stereotype. It doesn't have true. It's a stereotype. It doesn't have true. It's a stereotype. It doesn't have to become a true stereotype. So that's to become a true stereotype. So that's to become a true stereotype. So that's where the vulnerability presents a lot where the vulnerability presents a lot where the vulnerability presents a lot of just being, you know, a person who's of just being, you know, a person who's of just being, you know, a person who's just, you know, who's walking through just, you know, who's walking through just, you know, who's walking through life but but knows Jesus and and yeah, life but but knows Jesus and and yeah, life but but knows Jesus and and yeah, there's there's hard things and I mess there's there's hard things and I mess there's there's hard things and I mess up and I I I'm struggling with some up and I I I'm struggling with some up and I I I'm struggling with some things, but I'm so grateful that I know things, but I'm so grateful that I know things, but I'm so grateful that I know a savior who gives me that grace and a savior who gives me that grace and a savior who gives me that grace and that I have a community around me who that I have a community around me who that I have a community around me who who affords that grace and walks in it who affords that grace and walks in it who affords that grace and walks in it with me and, you know, and with me and, you know, and with me and, you know, and and calls me to something better instead and calls me to something better instead and calls me to something better instead of pushes me into something, you know.

of pushes me into something, you know. of pushes me into something, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and sometimes communities can can >> Um and sometimes communities can can >> Um and sometimes communities can can sort of start one way and kind of move sort of start one way and kind of move sort of start one way and kind of move in another direction. in another direction. in another direction. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And sometimes but if you find a >> And sometimes but if you find a >> And sometimes but if you find a community of Christians community of Christians community of Christians that really believe that they that they that really believe that they that they that really believe that they that they can't but God can, you know, um that's a can't but God can, you know, um that's a can't but God can, you know, um that's a very potent and wonderful place to be. very potent and wonderful place to be. very potent and wonderful place to be. You know, those are the aroma of Christ. You know, those are the aroma of Christ. You know, those are the aroma of Christ. It's infectious. It's it's it's uh it's It's infectious. It's it's it's uh it's It's infectious. It's it's it's uh it's very different than the world of ladder very different than the world of ladder very different than the world of ladder climbing and scorekeeping and and uh you climbing and scorekeeping and and uh you climbing and scorekeeping and and uh you know trying to you know what is it? Win know trying to you know what is it? Win know trying to you know what is it? Win the race with the most toys. You know, the race with the most toys. You know, the race with the most toys. You know, it's it's a it's a self-giving it's it's a it's a self-giving it's it's a it's a self-giving um um um mode of life that I think is very mode of life that I think is very mode of life that I think is very attractive to those who've been beaten attractive to those who've been beaten attractive to those who've been beaten down by life down by life down by life >> and for whom who for the the various >> and for whom who for the the various >> and for whom who for the the various games we play uh to convince ourselves games we play uh to convince ourselves games we play uh to convince ourselves we're better than we are or better than we're better than we are or better than we're better than we are or better than other people like other people like other people like when those games are revealed to be when those games are revealed to be when those games are revealed to be shell games.

shell games. shell games. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh there's it's nice to have a place to >> Uh there's it's nice to have a place to >> Uh there's it's nice to have a place to go. Oh, I mean, I always think of the go. Oh, I mean, I always think of the go. Oh, I mean, I always think of the church is where you go when you have church is where you go when you have church is where you go when you have nowhere else to go. And that's that's nowhere else to go. And that's that's nowhere else to go. And that's that's why I want that's why I take my kids to why I want that's why I take my kids to why I want that's why I take my kids to church. They I had a friend who's asked church. They I had a friend who's asked church. They I had a friend who's asked her mother like, "Why do you always take her mother like, "Why do you always take her mother like, "Why do you always take us to church?" And she said, "I want you us to church?" And she said, "I want you us to church?" And she said, "I want you to have a place to go when your life to have a place to go when your life to have a place to go when your life fell apart, fell apart, fell apart, >> you know. Um, and hopefully your life >> you know. Um, and hopefully your life >> you know. Um, and hopefully your life doesn't fall apart, but there is a place doesn't fall apart, but there is a place doesn't fall apart, but there is a place to go." And I want I wish people didn't to go." And I want I wish people didn't to go." And I want I wish people didn't would know that. And that's what the would know that. And that's what the would know that. And that's what the book is trying to foreground. Bearing in book is trying to foreground. Bearing in book is trying to foreground. Bearing in mind that there are plenty of when mind that there are plenty of when mind that there are plenty of when Christians Christians Christians lose sight of God's grace and all they lose sight of God's grace and all they lose sight of God's grace and all they focus on is the law or the the morality focus on is the law or the the morality focus on is the law or the the morality like it just has a way of crowding out like it just has a way of crowding out like it just has a way of crowding out the kindness that we talk about and the kindness that we talk about and the kindness that we talk about and those become humorless those become humorless those become humorless buttoned up situations. However, my buttoned up situations. However, my buttoned up situations. However, my experience hasn't actually been that experience hasn't actually been that experience hasn't actually been that there. I've seen the caricature and I there. I've seen the caricature and I there. I've seen the caricature and I know where it's coming from. But I've know where it's coming from. But I've know where it's coming from. But I've also been God has given me experiences also been God has given me experiences also been God has given me experiences of enormously wonderful communities of of enormously wonderful communities of of enormously wonderful communities of fellow fellow broken people. Yeah.

fellow fellow broken people. Yeah. fellow fellow broken people. Yeah. >> Who come together around the love of God >> Who come together around the love of God >> Who come together around the love of God and just sort of say, "Yeah, I can't, and just sort of say, "Yeah, I can't, and just sort of say, "Yeah, I can't, but God can." And what else is there? but God can." And what else is there? but God can." And what else is there? >> Yeah. We mentioned a little bit ago that >> Yeah. We mentioned a little bit ago that >> Yeah. We mentioned a little bit ago that we had been talking before we started we had been talking before we started we had been talking before we started recording recording recording about recovery groups. So, I this is a a about recovery groups. So, I this is a a about recovery groups. So, I this is a a just a plug for Celebrate Recovery. If just a plug for Celebrate Recovery. If just a plug for Celebrate Recovery. If if you want to experience that grace, if if you want to experience that grace, if if you want to experience that grace, if you're like, I I want to know what it is you're like, I I want to know what it is you're like, I I want to know what it is that they're talk I want to feel that that they're talk I want to feel that that they're talk I want to feel that that grace that they're talking about, that grace that they're talking about, that grace that they're talking about, check out Celebrate Recovery, I think check out Celebrate Recovery, I think check out Celebrate Recovery, I think they're in like 20,000 churches or they're in like 20,000 churches or they're in like 20,000 churches or something like that. Um, and so I'll put something like that. Um, and so I'll put something like that. Um, and so I'll put the link in the show notes for that as the link in the show notes for that as the link in the show notes for that as well. But if you want to be able to walk well. But if you want to be able to walk well. But if you want to be able to walk into that place and for for whatever into that place and for for whatever into that place and for for whatever reason you're not comfortable with reason you're not comfortable with reason you're not comfortable with walking into a church on the weekend, go walking into a church on the weekend, go walking into a church on the weekend, go and find a celebrate recovery group and find a celebrate recovery group and find a celebrate recovery group because you'll hear people sharing their because you'll hear people sharing their because you'll hear people sharing their stories and you know just and just being stories and you know just and just being stories and you know just and just being flooded with that grace because flooded with that grace because flooded with that grace because everybody is walking in with some sort everybody is walking in with some sort everybody is walking in with some sort of story that they are sharing. of story that they are sharing. of story that they are sharing. >> Yeah. They've all been disillusioned >> Yeah. They've all been disillusioned >> Yeah. They've all been disillusioned about their own capability to do the about their own capability to do the about their own capability to do the right thing. Ex exactly right.

right thing. Ex exactly right. right thing. Ex exactly right. >> We're all well aware that but for the >> We're all well aware that but for the >> We're all well aware that but for the grace of God there go I you know it's grace of God there go I you know it's grace of God there go I you know it's like like like >> ex stick with those folks. >> ex stick with those folks. >> ex stick with those folks. >> Exactly right. >> Exactly right. >> Exactly right. >> They're huddled around something pretty >> They're huddled around something pretty >> They're huddled around something pretty precious. precious. precious. >> Yeah. And there's just such an >> Yeah. And there's just such an >> Yeah. And there's just such an incredible group. Um, okay. As we start incredible group. Um, okay. As we start incredible group. Um, okay. As we start to wrap up, David, we've been talking to wrap up, David, we've been talking to wrap up, David, we've been talking about grace and we've been we've been about grace and we've been we've been about grace and we've been we've been talking about this from many different talking about this from many different talking about this from many different angles, but I wanted to ask you as we angles, but I wanted to ask you as we angles, but I wanted to ask you as we start closing, what is the what is one start closing, what is the what is one start closing, what is the what is one thing that somebody can do, can start thing that somebody can do, can start thing that somebody can do, can start doing right now to start to kind of doing right now to start to kind of doing right now to start to kind of live, you know, that grace first life live, you know, that grace first life live, you know, that grace first life that we've been talking about? Is there that we've been talking about? Is there that we've been talking about? Is there something, you know, for a person who something, you know, for a person who something, you know, for a person who says like, I just I don't feel like I've says like, I just I don't feel like I've says like, I just I don't feel like I've been feeling it. What's something that been feeling it. What's something that been feeling it. What's something that they can like start doing today? >> Well, my sense is that uh I I can give >> Well, my sense is that uh I I can give you an actual like concrete thing to do. you an actual like concrete thing to do. you an actual like concrete thing to do. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Uh look up some Rembrandt paintings. >> Uh look up some Rembrandt paintings. >> Uh look up some Rembrandt paintings. Like that's what you can do. I'm not Like that's what you can do. I'm not Like that's what you can do. I'm not There's the return of the prodigal son, There's the return of the prodigal son, There's the return of the prodigal son, but there's also the the parable of the but there's also the the parable of the but there's also the the parable of the workers in the vineyard that he did. He workers in the vineyard that he did. He workers in the vineyard that he did. He did about three different prodigal son did about three different prodigal son did about three different prodigal son paintings and they're just he this is a paintings and they're just he this is a paintings and they're just he this is a man who was singularly focused on the man who was singularly focused on the man who was singularly focused on the grace of God who was unbelievably grace of God who was unbelievably grace of God who was unbelievably talented and uh you know God had given talented and uh you know God had given talented and uh you know God had given this insane talent and and ability and this insane talent and and ability and this insane talent and and ability and yet where he came back to you again and yet where he came back to you again and yet where he came back to you again and again and again was uh the grace of God.

again and again was uh the grace of God. again and again was uh the grace of God. And so he he he you know he he he he And so he he he you know he he he he And so he he he you know he he he he brought these things to life you know brought these things to life you know brought these things to life you know the manger scenes and uh even the the manger scenes and uh even the the manger scenes and uh even the various apostles. I love looking at his various apostles. I love looking at his various apostles. I love looking at his paintings. So that is I think sometimes paintings. So that is I think sometimes paintings. So that is I think sometimes the visual is another way in. Um and God the visual is another way in. Um and God the visual is another way in. Um and God speaks to us through story and through speaks to us through story and through speaks to us through story and through other sorts of languages of the heart. other sorts of languages of the heart. other sorts of languages of the heart. Music is another one. Um so that would Music is another one. Um so that would Music is another one. Um so that would be a sort of just a basic one. If you if be a sort of just a basic one. If you if be a sort of just a basic one. If you if you're if you've read the Bible too many you're if you've read the Bible too many you're if you've read the Bible too many times and you're blew in the face, I times and you're blew in the face, I times and you're blew in the face, I mean, I think you can keep going back. I mean, I think you can keep going back. I mean, I think you can keep going back. I think the Bible is never ending source think the Bible is never ending source think the Bible is never ending source of inspiration, of inspiration, of inspiration, >> but look up some paintings or um uh >> but look up some paintings or um uh >> but look up some paintings or um uh watch uh Babett's Feast, you know, uh or watch uh Babett's Feast, you know, uh or watch uh Babett's Feast, you know, uh or you know, even watch that first season you know, even watch that first season you know, even watch that first season of Ted Lasso again or whatever it may be of Ted Lasso again or whatever it may be of Ted Lasso again or whatever it may be that uh the other thing is I'd say pay that uh the other thing is I'd say pay that uh the other thing is I'd say pay attention to what makes you cry. M attention to what makes you cry. M attention to what makes you cry. M >> um cuz usually there will be some sort >> um cuz usually there will be some sort >> um cuz usually there will be some sort of ways in which your need is spoken to.

of ways in which your need is spoken to. of ways in which your need is spoken to. Um and the final and and so when you Um and the final and and so when you Um and the final and and so when you start crying, you're something has start crying, you're something has start crying, you're something has touched you and usually you're in a touched you and usually you're in a touched you and usually you're in a place of grace of some kind. Yeah. place of grace of some kind. Yeah. place of grace of some kind. Yeah. >> And so the last thing I would say was >> And so the last thing I would say was >> And so the last thing I would say was that be um that be um that be um instead of focusing on instead of focusing on instead of focusing on how you can be more gracious or how you how you can be more gracious or how you how you can be more gracious or how you should be more gracious to this person should be more gracious to this person should be more gracious to this person that hurt you. Always think of yourself. that hurt you. Always think of yourself. that hurt you. Always think of yourself. Try to find the times that you were the Try to find the times that you were the Try to find the times that you were the child in the situation rather than the child in the situation rather than the child in the situation rather than the loving father. That you were the loving father. That you were the loving father. That you were the disobedient child rather than the loving disobedient child rather than the loving disobedient child rather than the loving father. you know uh try to remember father. you know uh try to remember father. you know uh try to remember sometime any time in which you are on sometime any time in which you are on sometime any time in which you are on the receiving end of grace because that the receiving end of grace because that the receiving end of grace because that will be the place that where you get the will be the place that where you get the will be the place that where you get the where where it comes alive. Um, and for where where it comes alive. Um, and for where where it comes alive. Um, and for some people that that might just be some people that that might just be some people that that might just be my someone paid for my McDonald's order my someone paid for my McDonald's order my someone paid for my McDonald's order in front of me when I showed up and I in front of me when I showed up and I in front of me when I showed up and I didn't have to pay, you know, like it didn't have to pay, you know, like it didn't have to pay, you know, like it could be something small, but it could could be something small, but it could could be something small, but it could also be something like I was terrible to also be something like I was terrible to also be something like I was terrible to this person and they treated me with this person and they treated me with this person and they treated me with kindness and I'll never forget it. I kindness and I'll never forget it. I kindness and I'll never forget it. I tell the story in this book about gifts tell the story in this book about gifts tell the story in this book about gifts that are given that make you cry because that are given that make you cry because that are given that make you cry because you're they're they're so out of you're they're they're so out of you're they're they're so out of proportion with what you deserve. And so proportion with what you deserve. And so proportion with what you deserve. And so >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> think instead of thinking about the >> think instead of thinking about the >> think instead of thinking about the places you need to be more gracious, places you need to be more gracious, places you need to be more gracious, think about the times you've been shown think about the times you've been shown think about the times you've been shown grace.

grace. grace. >> And hopefully maybe maybe it was a >> And hopefully maybe maybe it was a >> And hopefully maybe maybe it was a church or maybe it was through a pastor, church or maybe it was through a pastor, church or maybe it was through a pastor, maybe it's through the scripture, maybe maybe it's through the scripture, maybe maybe it's through the scripture, maybe it's in a small group. I don't know what it's in a small group. I don't know what it's in a small group. I don't know what it is, but that's where you really it is, but that's where you really it is, but that's where you really begin. begin. begin. >> Yeah. Yeah. I would even add to that >> Yeah. Yeah. I would even add to that >> Yeah. Yeah. I would even add to that like spending time out in nature, just like spending time out in nature, just like spending time out in nature, just spending time with God in that way. Like spending time with God in that way. Like spending time with God in that way. Like that's it's an opportunity to just let that's it's an opportunity to just let that's it's an opportunity to just let the the God of grace pour into you when the the God of grace pour into you when the the God of grace pour into you when you're, you know, in his environment, in you're, you know, in his environment, in you're, you know, in his environment, in his world that he created. And his world that he created. And his world that he created. And >> it's so much more beautiful than it than >> it's so much more beautiful than it than >> it's so much more beautiful than it than it had to be. it had to be. it had to be. >> Yeah. Oh, 100%. And just think >> Yeah. Oh, 100%. And just think >> Yeah. Oh, 100%. And just think >> it could just be it could just be >> it could just be it could just be >> it could just be it could just be communist blocks everywhere, you know? communist blocks everywhere, you know? communist blocks everywhere, you know? >> Well, and it's the same with music, >> Well, and it's the same with music, >> Well, and it's the same with music, right? is is music is clearly a gift right? is is music is clearly a gift right? is is music is clearly a gift from God. There's not a biological need from God. There's not a biological need from God. There's not a biological need for humans to have created music, but for humans to have created music, but for humans to have created music, but there's just beauty in music. And so I I there's just beauty in music. And so I I there's just beauty in music. And so I I I was glad to hear that you brought that I was glad to hear that you brought that I was glad to hear that you brought that up because yeah, there are even there up because yeah, there are even there up because yeah, there are even there are so many songs that speak to this are so many songs that speak to this are so many songs that speak to this truth of grace. I keep going back to truth of grace. I keep going back to truth of grace. I keep going back to this old song. It's probably like 15 this old song. It's probably like 15 this old song. It's probably like 15 years old or whatever, but I I reference years old or whatever, but I I reference years old or whatever, but I I reference it a lot because it's it's has such a it a lot because it's it's has such a it a lot because it's it's has such a meaning for me. I I believe it was meaning for me. I I believe it was meaning for me. I I believe it was called worn. And it was just this idea called worn. And it was just this idea called worn. And it was just this idea of this person being I'm tired. I'm of this person being I'm tired. I'm of this person being I'm tired. I'm weary. I'm worn, you know, but I know weary. I'm worn, you know, but I know weary. I'm worn, you know, but I know that you give me rest. And so I cry out that you give me rest. And so I cry out that you give me rest. And so I cry out with all that I have left. And that's with all that I have left. And that's with all that I have left. And that's just the song of grace of just saying just the song of grace of just saying just the song of grace of just saying I'm I'm feeling all of these things that I'm I'm feeling all of these things that I'm I'm feeling all of these things that that you talk about in the book, the that you talk about in the book, the that you talk about in the book, the deserving, the regret, rejection, or deserving, the regret, rejection, or deserving, the regret, rejection, or control, and yet I can just lean on God.

control, and yet I can just lean on God. control, and yet I can just lean on God. I can lean on God's grace in that. Um, I can lean on God's grace in that. Um, I can lean on God's grace in that. Um, so so so >> I put I had to put together a playlist >> I put I had to put together a playlist >> I put I had to put together a playlist for this book. It's on Spotify for this book. It's on Spotify for this book. It's on Spotify playlist. It's nothing but songs about playlist. It's nothing but songs about playlist. It's nothing but songs about grace that speak to me in that respect. grace that speak to me in that respect. grace that speak to me in that respect. Some of them are very explicit. Some of Some of them are very explicit. Some of Some of them are very explicit. Some of them are because I talk about music a them are because I talk about music a them are because I talk about music a lot. Music is the language of my my lot. Music is the language of my my lot. Music is the language of my my heart. But heart. But heart. But >> I love it. >> I love it. >> I love it. >> Um yeah, whatever it is that speaks to a >> Um yeah, whatever it is that speaks to a >> Um yeah, whatever it is that speaks to a person below the level of their person below the level of their person below the level of their intellect. intellect. intellect. >> Music and Jack Carowak. >> Music and Jack Carowak. >> Music and Jack Carowak. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> David, it was so great to talk with you >> David, it was so great to talk with you >> David, it was so great to talk with you about grace, about the big relief, the about grace, about the big relief, the about grace, about the big relief, the book. I have the link in the show notes book. I have the link in the show notes book. I have the link in the show notes as well. Um I really appreciate you as well. Um I really appreciate you as well. Um I really appreciate you coming on to talk about this. would you coming on to talk about this. would you coming on to talk about this. would you mind closing us uh in prayer mind closing us uh in prayer mind closing us uh in prayer specifically praying for grace? specifically praying for grace? specifically praying for grace? >> Absolutely. Thank you Jason for having >> Absolutely. Thank you Jason for having >> Absolutely. Thank you Jason for having me. Okay. Uh heavenly father uh thank me. Okay. Uh heavenly father uh thank me. Okay. Uh heavenly father uh thank you for this day which you have given to you for this day which you have given to you for this day which you have given to us. Thank you for this time which you us. Thank you for this time which you us. Thank you for this time which you have given to us. Nothing we uh deserve have given to us. Nothing we uh deserve have given to us. Nothing we uh deserve or have even asked for. um you are so or have even asked for. um you are so or have even asked for. um you are so much greater and more gracious and much greater and more gracious and much greater and more gracious and surprising than uh we have any reason to surprising than uh we have any reason to surprising than uh we have any reason to expect. Lord, I ask you pour out your expect. Lord, I ask you pour out your expect. Lord, I ask you pour out your grace upon each one of us today. Um if grace upon each one of us today. Um if grace upon each one of us today. Um if there is some avenue where we might get there is some avenue where we might get there is some avenue where we might get in deeper touch with in deeper touch with in deeper touch with uh the grace uh that you have shown us, uh the grace uh that you have shown us, uh the grace uh that you have shown us, we pray that you would you would reveal we pray that you would you would reveal we pray that you would you would reveal it to us. Help put our put our feet in it to us. Help put our put our feet in it to us. Help put our put our feet in front of one in front of the other. Um

front of one in front of the other. Um front of one in front of the other. Um but Lord, I I just ask I ask uh but Lord, I I just ask I ask uh but Lord, I I just ask I ask uh specifically that you would pour out um specifically that you would pour out um specifically that you would pour out um abundant, abundant, abundant, generative, generative, generative, um um um enlivening, resurrecting grace on each enlivening, resurrecting grace on each enlivening, resurrecting grace on each and every one of us. uh in ways that and every one of us. uh in ways that and every one of us. uh in ways that catch us off guard and ways that uh catch us off guard and ways that uh catch us off guard and ways that uh bring uh joy to our hearts and uh bring uh joy to our hearts and uh bring uh joy to our hearts and uh increase our love for our neighbors and increase our love for our neighbors and increase our love for our neighbors and those who've even those who've hurt us. those who've even those who've hurt us. those who've even those who've hurt us. Uh pray that there would be more Uh pray that there would be more Uh pray that there would be more churches churches churches that would be uh dispensaries of grace, that would be uh dispensaries of grace, that would be uh dispensaries of grace, destinations of grace, communities of destinations of grace, communities of destinations of grace, communities of grace. I pray for grace in grace. I pray for grace in grace. I pray for grace in relationships, um grace in institutions, relationships, um grace in institutions, relationships, um grace in institutions, um and uh we just pray that uh open us um and uh we just pray that uh open us um and uh we just pray that uh open us to receive that which you have to give to receive that which you have to give to receive that which you have to give us in Jesus name we pray for his sake.

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