E450 Why the Church Still Matters with Dr. Carmen Joy Imes

[Music] [Music] This is a Saddleback Church podcast. This is a Saddleback Church podcast. This is a Saddleback Church podcast. The church is a multi-ethnic and The church is a multi-ethnic and The church is a multi-ethnic and multicultural assembly of believers multicultural assembly of believers multicultural assembly of believers spanning history that God has called spanning history that God has called spanning history that God has called into fellowship with Christ and with one into fellowship with Christ and with one into fellowship with Christ and with one another. another. another. We gather regularly to consider the We gather regularly to consider the We gather regularly to consider the teachings of the Bible and to orient our teachings of the Bible and to orient our teachings of the Bible and to orient our lives around God's coming kingdom. lives around God's coming kingdom. lives around God's coming kingdom. Uh together we wait for God Uh together we wait for God Uh together we wait for God to make all things new. to make all things new. to make all things new. And we bear witness to the world of what And we bear witness to the world of what And we bear witness to the world of what God has already done. God has already done. God has already done. An excerpt from An excerpt from An excerpt from Becoming God's Family. Becoming God's Family. Becoming God's Family. What is the purpose of the church? What is the purpose of the church? What is the purpose of the church? If you talk with different people, you'd If you talk with different people, you'd If you talk with different people, you'd likely get different answers. likely get different answers. likely get different answers. You might hear that it's it's a place to You might hear that it's it's a place to You might hear that it's it's a place to worship God. worship God. worship God. You might even hear that it's just a You might even hear that it's just a You might even hear that it's just a place people go to feel better about place people go to feel better about place people go to feel better about their lives. their lives. their lives. There's a broader conversation happening There's a broader conversation happening There's a broader conversation happening around whether or not the church still around whether or not the church still around whether or not the church still matters.

matters. matters. Even amongst Christians, there's a Even amongst Christians, there's a Even amongst Christians, there's a question over why they need to go to question over why they need to go to question over why they need to go to church when they can just believe in church when they can just believe in church when they can just believe in Jesus and read the Bible on their own. Jesus and read the Bible on their own. Jesus and read the Bible on their own. So today's episode is all about the So today's episode is all about the So today's episode is all about the church church church and the importance of with-ness. and the importance of with-ness. and the importance of with-ness. My guest today is Dr. My guest today is Dr. My guest today is Dr. A. Carmen Joy Imes, associate professor A. Carmen Joy Imes, associate professor A. Carmen Joy Imes, associate professor of Old Testament at of Old Testament at of Old Testament at Biola University and author of the new Biola University and author of the new Biola University and author of the new book book book Becoming God's Family. Why the church Becoming God's Family. Why the church Becoming God's Family. Why the church still matters. still matters. still matters. In this conversation we talk about her In this conversation we talk about her In this conversation we talk about her trilogy of books about our relationship trilogy of books about our relationship trilogy of books about our relationship with and to God, of which this new one with and to God, of which this new one with and to God, of which this new one is the third in that series. is the third in that series. is the third in that series. We talk about why there's even a We talk about why there's even a We talk about why there's even a question around whether or not the question around whether or not the question around whether or not the church matters or not. church matters or not. church matters or not. We talk about the role and function of We talk about the role and function of We talk about the role and function of the church. And we talk about the truth the church. And we talk about the truth the church. And we talk about the truth of how a church gathering are really of how a church gathering are really of how a church gathering are really oriented around what we cannot do on our oriented around what we cannot do on our oriented around what we cannot do on our own.

own. own. My name is Jason Weiland and this is My name is Jason Weiland and this is My name is Jason Weiland and this is Doable Discipleship. Doable Discipleship. Doable Discipleship. Now, my conversation with Now, my conversation with Now, my conversation with Dr. Carmen Imes. Dr. Carmen Imes. Dr. Carmen Imes. [Music] [Music] [Music] All right, Dr. Carmen Imes, I think this All right, Dr. Carmen Imes, I think this All right, Dr. Carmen Imes, I think this is your third time with us. So, is your third time with us. So, is your third time with us. So, returning champion, thanks for being returning champion, thanks for being returning champion, thanks for being here as we talk about your new book, here as we talk about your new book, here as we talk about your new book, Becoming God's Family. It's It's great Becoming God's Family. It's It's great Becoming God's Family. It's It's great to see you again and thanks for being to see you again and thanks for being to see you again and thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. So, here. Yeah, thanks for having me. So, here. Yeah, thanks for having me. So, okay. So, you have three books that kind okay. So, you have three books that kind okay. So, you have three books that kind of make up this family of books right of make up this family of books right of make up this family of books right now. There's a Bearing God's Name, Being now. There's a Bearing God's Name, Being now. There's a Bearing God's Name, Being God's Image, which we had you on for the God's Image, which we had you on for the God's Image, which we had you on for the first time that we had you on was first time that we had you on was first time that we had you on was talking about that book, talking about that book, talking about that book, Being God's Image. And now, Becoming Being God's Image. And now, Becoming Being God's Image. And now, Becoming God's Family. Mhm. So, I I I I really God's Family. Mhm. So, I I I I really God's Family. Mhm. So, I I I I really truly love how each one of these books truly love how each one of these books truly love how each one of these books kind of focuses in on our relationship kind of focuses in on our relationship kind of focuses in on our relationship with God. They're all about these with God. They're all about these with God. They're all about these topics, but they're about how we relate topics, but they're about how we relate topics, but they're about how we relate to God. So, I would suggest to God. So, I would suggest to God. So, I would suggest taking these three books at as a taking these three books at as a taking these three books at as a large at large, how would you describe large at large, how would you describe large at large, how would you describe kind of the overarching message that's kind of the overarching message that's kind of the overarching message that's covering covering covering this trilogy of books, if you will?

this trilogy of books, if you will? this trilogy of books, if you will? Yes, I'm happy to do that. So, the first Yes, I'm happy to do that. So, the first Yes, I'm happy to do that. So, the first book I wrote was Bearing God's Name, book I wrote was Bearing God's Name, book I wrote was Bearing God's Name, which is focusing in on the identity and which is focusing in on the identity and which is focusing in on the identity and vocation of the covenant people, God's vocation of the covenant people, God's vocation of the covenant people, God's people, the church. people, the church. people, the church. Um Um Um then I backed up and talked about what then I backed up and talked about what then I backed up and talked about what does it mean to be human. And so, we does it mean to be human. And so, we does it mean to be human. And so, we could call the Being God's Image the could call the Being God's Image the could call the Being God's Image the identity book, like it really is identity book, like it really is identity book, like it really is focusing in on focusing in on focusing in on we are the image of God, that's our we are the image of God, that's our we are the image of God, that's our human identity. And then Bearing God's human identity. And then Bearing God's human identity. And then Bearing God's Name becomes the vocation book. This is Name becomes the vocation book. This is Name becomes the vocation book. This is what we're to do in the world. And this what we're to do in the world. And this what we're to do in the world. And this third book is the book about belonging. third book is the book about belonging. third book is the book about belonging. Uh who are we? We are a community of Uh who are we? We are a community of Uh who are we? We are a community of people who are gathered around the people who are gathered around the people who are gathered around the presence of God. So, what I noticed presence of God. So, what I noticed presence of God. So, what I noticed after writing the first two books is after writing the first two books is after writing the first two books is that it would be possible to read them that it would be possible to read them that it would be possible to read them and still be thinking very and still be thinking very and still be thinking very individualistically. individualistically. individualistically. >> Sure. Like, I am God's image. I bear >> Sure. Like, I am God's image. I bear >> Sure. Like, I am God's image. I bear God's name and I'm going to go do that God's name and I'm going to go do that God's name and I'm going to go do that all by myself. And I realized that all by myself. And I realized that all by myself. And I realized that especially here in the West, we would especially here in the West, we would especially here in the West, we would need need need a kind of a retake or another look at a kind of a retake or another look at a kind of a retake or another look at the Old Testament and New Testament to the Old Testament and New Testament to the Old Testament and New Testament to show show show we were never meant to be doing this by we were never meant to be doing this by we were never meant to be doing this by ourselves. We have always been called ourselves. We have always been called ourselves. We have always been called into community and God is making us into community and God is making us into community and God is making us together into something more than what together into something more than what together into something more than what we could be by ourselves. So, identity, we could be by ourselves. So, identity, we could be by ourselves. So, identity, vocation, belonging are the three books vocation, belonging are the three books vocation, belonging are the three books and the trilogy is complete.

and the trilogy is complete. and the trilogy is complete. And the trilogy is complete until your And the trilogy is complete until your And the trilogy is complete until your publisher says, "You sure you don't got publisher says, "You sure you don't got publisher says, "You sure you don't got another one in Oh, they've already said another one in Oh, they've already said another one in Oh, they've already said and I do have another idea, but it's not and I do have another idea, but it's not and I do have another idea, but it's not going to break the trilogy. So, going to break the trilogy. So, going to break the trilogy. So, I I have plenty more things to say, but I I have plenty more things to say, but I I have plenty more things to say, but they will be adjacent to the trilogy. they will be adjacent to the trilogy. they will be adjacent to the trilogy. Well, I love that you felt called to Well, I love that you felt called to Well, I love that you felt called to wanting to talk about how we're meant to wanting to talk about how we're meant to wanting to talk about how we're meant to do this together, right? And it goes do this together, right? And it goes do this together, right? And it goes back to that early part from Genesis, back to that early part from Genesis, back to that early part from Genesis, right? Like man, it's not good for man right? Like man, it's not good for man right? Like man, it's not good for man to be alone and so then we enter into to be alone and so then we enter into to be alone and so then we enter into relationship for the rest. I think there relationship for the rest. I think there relationship for the rest. I think there is is is an an interesting as you said, an an interesting as you said, an an interesting as you said, especially in the West, there's this especially in the West, there's this especially in the West, there's this focus on this idea that we can do this focus on this idea that we can do this focus on this idea that we can do this individually or or there's this belief individually or or there's this belief individually or or there's this belief that we can. And I think sometimes I was that we can. And I think sometimes I was that we can. And I think sometimes I was thinking about this as you were talking. thinking about this as you were talking. thinking about this as you were talking. Um and so tell me if you're like, "Nah, Um and so tell me if you're like, "Nah, Um and so tell me if you're like, "Nah, I think that's I think that's bogus." I think that's I think that's bogus." I think that's I think that's bogus." Cuz this is a new thought. But we spend Cuz this is a new thought. But we spend Cuz this is a new thought. But we spend so much time usually focusing on the so much time usually focusing on the so much time usually focusing on the stories of individual Bible characters. stories of individual Bible characters. stories of individual Bible characters. >> Oh, yes. And so we learn about the story >> Oh, yes. And so we learn about the story >> Oh, yes. And so we learn about the story of, you know, Joseph or Noah or Moses or of, you know, Joseph or Noah or Moses or of, you know, Joseph or Noah or Moses or David, but not usually as we talk about David, but not usually as we talk about David, but not usually as we talk about it, it's usually about these exploits or it, it's usually about these exploits or it, it's usually about these exploits or these events of this one of this these events of this one of this these events of this one of this individual.

individual. individual. And not so often do we talk about the And not so often do we talk about the And not so often do we talk about the collective. All of those stories really collective. All of those stories really collective. All of those stories really at its heart are about their at its heart are about their at its heart are about their relationship with the people around them relationship with the people around them relationship with the people around them doing these things together and how that doing these things together and how that doing these things together and how that affect, you know, affects affect, you know, affects affect, you know, affects God's people, if you're talking about God's people, if you're talking about God's people, if you're talking about the Old Testament or you have these New the Old Testament or you have these New the Old Testament or you have these New Testament churches. We talk about Paul a Testament churches. We talk about Paul a Testament churches. We talk about Paul a lot, but really Paul is there to support lot, but really Paul is there to support lot, but really Paul is there to support and to help drive these New Testament and to help drive these New Testament and to help drive these New Testament churches, these groups of churches, these groups of churches, these groups of >> of a whole team of people who are doing >> of a whole team of people who are doing >> of a whole team of people who are doing this work. So, he does the most talking, this work. So, he does the most talking, this work. So, he does the most talking, but he but and and he writes the stuff but he but and and he writes the stuff but he but and and he writes the stuff down that we read, but he's not alone in down that we read, but he's not alone in down that we read, but he's not alone in in his ministry. I I think you're in his ministry. I I think you're in his ministry. I I think you're absolutely right. We focus on absolutely right. We focus on absolutely right. We focus on individuals and we tend to come to the individuals and we tend to come to the individuals and we tend to come to the Bible looking for heroes. Bible looking for heroes. Bible looking for heroes. Yes. Which is the other issue that sets Yes. Which is the other issue that sets Yes. Which is the other issue that sets us up for big problems because there are us up for big problems because there are us up for big problems because there are a lot of stories in the Bible that show a lot of stories in the Bible that show a lot of stories in the Bible that show us the flaws and foibles of Bible us the flaws and foibles of Bible us the flaws and foibles of Bible characters. And if we think that it's characters. And if we think that it's characters. And if we think that it's trying to give us a portrait of a bunch trying to give us a portrait of a bunch trying to give us a portrait of a bunch of heroes all lined up, we are going to of heroes all lined up, we are going to of heroes all lined up, we are going to have some serious disillusionment.

have some serious disillusionment. have some serious disillusionment. What? How is God okay with this? What am What? How is God okay with this? What am What? How is God okay with this? What am I How do I apply this to my life? I I How do I apply this to my life? I I How do I apply this to my life? I don't understand what's going on here. don't understand what's going on here. don't understand what's going on here. And if we recognize instead that God is And if we recognize instead that God is And if we recognize instead that God is using using using flawed people to participate like flawed flawed people to participate like flawed flawed people to participate like flawed people are participating in his purposes people are participating in his purposes people are participating in his purposes for the wider community and these for the wider community and these for the wider community and these stories are telling us really more about stories are telling us really more about stories are telling us really more about God than they are about us. God than they are about us. God than they are about us. Um and they're not necessarily good Um and they're not necessarily good Um and they're not necessarily good examples. I think this helps set us up examples. I think this helps set us up examples. I think this helps set us up to understand better what we're reading. to understand better what we're reading. to understand better what we're reading. No, agree completely. It's It's It's No, agree completely. It's It's It's No, agree completely. It's It's It's It's asking you to have this perspective It's asking you to have this perspective It's asking you to have this perspective shift as you read the Bible shift as you read the Bible shift as you read the Bible instead of just looking at these, you instead of just looking at these, you instead of just looking at these, you know, individuals and their stories, know, individuals and their stories, know, individuals and their stories, really it's looking back to God, but really it's looking back to God, but really it's looking back to God, but then also thinking of what is God doing then also thinking of what is God doing then also thinking of what is God doing through the people at this time. And through the people at this time. And through the people at this time. And he's using he he might be using a person he's using he he might be using a person he's using he he might be using a person to lead a people. Um but it's all to lead a people. Um but it's all to lead a people. Um but it's all relational. Every element of it is relational. Every element of it is relational. Every element of it is relational. So, relational. So, relational. So, for the listener, I would just encourage for the listener, I would just encourage for the listener, I would just encourage like, "Hey, have that lens almost in like, "Hey, have that lens almost in like, "Hey, have that lens almost in place and make sure that you are are place and make sure that you are are place and make sure that you are are operating with this lens of how do I operating with this lens of how do I operating with this lens of how do I read this read this read this relationally?" And that doesn't just relationally?" And that doesn't just relationally?" And that doesn't just mean with other people, although that's mean with other people, although that's mean with other people, although that's strongly encouraged, but also just strongly encouraged, but also just strongly encouraged, but also just reading the Bible as a series of stories reading the Bible as a series of stories reading the Bible as a series of stories of of relationships. Yes. Yeah, I think of of relationships. Yes. Yeah, I think of of relationships. Yes. Yeah, I think that's great advice. Um okay. So, the that's great advice. Um okay. So, the that's great advice. Um okay. So, the subtitle of this book is Why the church subtitle of this book is Why the church subtitle of this book is Why the church still matters. So, what are you seeing still matters. So, what are you seeing still matters. So, what are you seeing in culture right now or whether it's

in culture right now or whether it's in culture right now or whether it's culture, you know, at large or Christian culture, you know, at large or Christian culture, you know, at large or Christian culture specifically, culture specifically, culture specifically, um that makes you think that there's a um that makes you think that there's a um that makes you think that there's a question of the church mattering? Cuz question of the church mattering? Cuz question of the church mattering? Cuz with the subtitle of Why the church with the subtitle of Why the church with the subtitle of Why the church still matters, that seems to indicate still matters, that seems to indicate still matters, that seems to indicate that that's a question. Yes. that that's a question. Yes. that that's a question. Yes. It does seem like it's a question. It does seem like it's a question. It does seem like it's a question. Um when I was growing up, Um when I was growing up, Um when I was growing up, church attendance was never a question. church attendance was never a question. church attendance was never a question. We I I can never recall my parents We I I can never recall my parents We I I can never recall my parents looking at each other across the looking at each other across the looking at each other across the breakfast table on a Sunday morning and breakfast table on a Sunday morning and breakfast table on a Sunday morning and saying, "Well, are we going today or saying, "Well, are we going today or saying, "Well, are we going today or not?" Like it was just a foregone not?" Like it was just a foregone not?" Like it was just a foregone conclusion that we would be going to conclusion that we would be going to conclusion that we would be going to church that morning. There was never church that morning. There was never church that morning. There was never once a fight about it that I can once a fight about it that I can once a fight about it that I can remember or a discussion or you know, remember or a discussion or you know, remember or a discussion or you know, this was just the thing that we did. It this was just the thing that we did. It this was just the thing that we did. It was unquestioned. And what I see now is was unquestioned. And what I see now is was unquestioned. And what I see now is that the this next generation, my that the this next generation, my that the this next generation, my generation, is no longer assuming that generation, is no longer assuming that generation, is no longer assuming that church attendance is necessary to be a church attendance is necessary to be a church attendance is necessary to be a Christian. In fact, this idea for this Christian. In fact, this idea for this Christian. In fact, this idea for this book was born around a campfire book was born around a campfire book was born around a campfire when I was camping with extended family when I was camping with extended family when I was camping with extended family members and one of my extended family members and one of my extended family members and one of my extended family members across the campfire said, "Well, members across the campfire said, "Well, members across the campfire said, "Well, I still believe in Jesus and you know, I I still believe in Jesus and you know, I I still believe in Jesus and you know, I I still believe all that stuff, but I I still believe all that stuff, but I I still believe all that stuff, but I don't need church.

don't need church. don't need church. I don't need anybody telling me what to I don't need anybody telling me what to I don't need anybody telling me what to do." do." do." And I I what I heard in his voice was a And I I what I heard in his voice was a And I I what I heard in his voice was a radical individualism that thought, radical individualism that thought, radical individualism that thought, "I can follow Jesus just as well by "I can follow Jesus just as well by "I can follow Jesus just as well by myself as I can with all those other myself as I can with all those other myself as I can with all those other people. And I want to be free to make my people. And I want to be free to make my people. And I want to be free to make my own decisions and not have somebody, own decisions and not have somebody, own decisions and not have somebody, you know, bearing down on me, pressuring you know, bearing down on me, pressuring you know, bearing down on me, pressuring me to do or not do certain things. And I me to do or not do certain things. And I me to do or not do certain things. And I realized in that moment that it was time realized in that moment that it was time realized in that moment that it was time to make the case for church again. Yeah. to make the case for church again. Yeah. to make the case for church again. Yeah. Um I think COVID had a big part in this. Um I think COVID had a big part in this. Um I think COVID had a big part in this. There was already a drifting that was There was already a drifting that was There was already a drifting that was happening. Sure. People disconnecting happening. Sure. People disconnecting happening. Sure. People disconnecting for various reasons, and I want to for various reasons, and I want to for various reasons, and I want to acknowledge that many of the reasons acknowledge that many of the reasons acknowledge that many of the reasons that people have disconnected from the that people have disconnected from the that people have disconnected from the church are good reasons. Mhm. That they church are good reasons. Mhm. That they church are good reasons. Mhm. That they have seen hypocrisy. They've seen toxic have seen hypocrisy. They've seen toxic have seen hypocrisy. They've seen toxic forms of leadership. They've watched forms of leadership. They've watched forms of leadership. They've watched abuse happen and seen it be covered up. abuse happen and seen it be covered up. abuse happen and seen it be covered up. And they don't want to have anything to And they don't want to have anything to And they don't want to have anything to do with that. And I I commend those who do with that. And I I commend those who do with that. And I I commend those who are not okay with problems in the church are not okay with problems in the church are not okay with problems in the church because I don't think God wants us to because I don't think God wants us to because I don't think God wants us to just be okay with these things.

just be okay with these things. just be okay with these things. >> Mhm. Um and that's why I I begin the >> Mhm. Um and that's why I I begin the >> Mhm. Um and that's why I I begin the book by looking at almost right off the book by looking at almost right off the book by looking at almost right off the bat at problems with Abraham and Sarah. bat at problems with Abraham and Sarah. bat at problems with Abraham and Sarah. God calls Abraham and Sarah, and almost God calls Abraham and Sarah, and almost God calls Abraham and Sarah, and almost right away they start oppressing other right away they start oppressing other right away they start oppressing other people. Um Abram mistreats Sarah. Sarah people. Um Abram mistreats Sarah. Sarah people. Um Abram mistreats Sarah. Sarah mistreats Hagar. And so I address the mistreats Hagar. And so I address the mistreats Hagar. And so I address the question right from the beginning of question right from the beginning of question right from the beginning of what do we do when God's people mistreat what do we do when God's people mistreat what do we do when God's people mistreat others? Mhm. And I think it's beautiful others? Mhm. And I think it's beautiful others? Mhm. And I think it's beautiful that the Bible is willing to show us that the Bible is willing to show us that the Bible is willing to show us this, show us the the this, show us the the this, show us the the uh uh uh I was going to say the flaws, but it's I was going to say the flaws, but it's I was going to say the flaws, but it's worse than that. worse than that. worse than that. >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah. Um the um criminal activity of some of its the um criminal activity of some of its the um criminal activity of some of its leaders. leaders. leaders. >> Mhm. As if to say, >> Mhm. As if to say, >> Mhm. As if to say, "My people aren't getting away with "My people aren't getting away with "My people aren't getting away with this. I want to draw attention to this this. I want to draw attention to this this. I want to draw attention to this and show that it's not okay." Mhm. So, I and show that it's not okay." Mhm. So, I and show that it's not okay." Mhm. So, I think um think um think um for me to say, "Yes, the church for me to say, "Yes, the church for me to say, "Yes, the church matters." needs to begin with an matters." needs to begin with an matters." needs to begin with an acknowledgement that the church is not acknowledgement that the church is not acknowledgement that the church is not perfect, and that the church has perfect, and that the church has perfect, and that the church has problems, and we shouldn't ignore those.

problems, and we shouldn't ignore those. problems, and we shouldn't ignore those. I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture of the church and just say, "This is of the church and just say, "This is of the church and just say, "This is going to be great. You should just all going to be great. You should just all going to be great. You should just all come back and it'll all be great." come back and it'll all be great." come back and it'll all be great." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I acknowledge that I acknowledge that I acknowledge that that there are problems, but what I'm that there are problems, but what I'm that there are problems, but what I'm hoping is that I can cast a vision for hoping is that I can cast a vision for hoping is that I can cast a vision for the church that is hope-filled, and that the church that is hope-filled, and that the church that is hope-filled, and that will be a kind of reset button, help us will be a kind of reset button, help us will be a kind of reset button, help us to reconsider, what is it that we're to reconsider, what is it that we're to reconsider, what is it that we're doing when we gather, and what might we doing when we gather, and what might we doing when we gather, and what might we be missing when we don't. Yeah, I think be missing when we don't. Yeah, I think be missing when we don't. Yeah, I think I think those two questions to put back I think those two questions to put back I think those two questions to put back in front of people are as important. I in front of people are as important. I in front of people are as important. I you know, I there's a you know, I there's a you know, I there's a there's a narrative that it's a lot of there's a narrative that it's a lot of there's a narrative that it's a lot of younger generation that is finding, "Ah, younger generation that is finding, "Ah, younger generation that is finding, "Ah, I don't really need to you know, church. I don't really need to you know, church. I don't really need to you know, church. It's you know, I can still I can still It's you know, I can still I can still It's you know, I can still I can still believe or I can watch online or do you believe or I can watch online or do you believe or I can watch online or do you know." Mhm. know." Mhm. know." Mhm. And that is and there is a lot of truth And that is and there is a lot of truth And that is and there is a lot of truth in that. But, it's interesting. I've in that. But, it's interesting. I've in that. But, it's interesting. I've also had conversations with some um also had conversations with some um also had conversations with some um older people who, you know, more so in older people who, you know, more so in older people who, you know, more so in like, you know, in their 60s, you know, like, you know, in their 60s, you know, like, you know, in their 60s, you know, conversation of saying, "Well, I've kind conversation of saying, "Well, I've kind conversation of saying, "Well, I've kind of done it. I've done church. Mhm. You of done it. I've done church. Mhm. You of done it. I've done church. Mhm. You know, now I can, you know, I can use know, now I can, you know, I can use know, now I can, you know, I can use that time to go and be with people and that time to go and be with people and that time to go and be with people and just, you know, and and whatnot. And so just, you know, and and whatnot. And so just, you know, and and whatnot. And so I've I've I've seen that interesting um I've I've I've seen that interesting um I've I've I've seen that interesting um other narrative, too. Um of like, "Well, other narrative, too. Um of like, "Well, other narrative, too. Um of like, "Well, you know, I have a I feel like I've you know, I have a I feel like I've you know, I have a I feel like I've heard everything I I could possibly heard everything I I could possibly heard everything I I could possibly hear. I've been to church my whole hear. I've been to church my whole hear. I've been to church my whole life."

life." life." >> Yeah, not really learning anything new >> Yeah, not really learning anything new >> Yeah, not really learning anything new anymore. It doesn't really do it for me anymore. It doesn't really do it for me anymore. It doesn't really do it for me like it used to. Exactly. And so what like it used to. Exactly. And so what like it used to. Exactly. And so what you you you what you are proposing, especially what you are proposing, especially what you are proposing, especially through this book, is kind of a re-look through this book, is kind of a re-look through this book, is kind of a re-look at how we view at how we view at how we view ecclesiology. It's really just getting ecclesiology. It's really just getting ecclesiology. It's really just getting into, "Well, what really is the church?" into, "Well, what really is the church?" into, "Well, what really is the church?" You know, is the church really just You know, is the church really just You know, is the church really just where you sit and listen to a pastor or where you sit and listen to a pastor or where you sit and listen to a pastor or a preacher talk? Is Is that what church a preacher talk? Is Is that what church a preacher talk? Is Is that what church is? That's an element of church, but is? That's an element of church, but is? That's an element of church, but really church is the coming together of really church is the coming together of really church is the coming together of the body. It's the coming to It's It's the body. It's the coming to It's It's the body. It's the coming to It's It's the being together with your the being together with your the being together with your brothers and sisters in Christ getting brothers and sisters in Christ getting brothers and sisters in Christ getting to to to worship together. And a part of that is worship together. And a part of that is worship together. And a part of that is hearing, you know, from God's word and hearing, you know, from God's word and hearing, you know, from God's word and hearing a message of hearing a message of hearing a message of And part of that is getting to singing And part of that is getting to singing And part of that is getting to singing and being together and being together and being together in praising God through song. Part of in praising God through song. Part of in praising God through song. Part of that is literally just the kinship of that is literally just the kinship of that is literally just the kinship of being together. It's the koinonia and being together. It's the koinonia and being together. It's the koinonia and going back to that word of what it means going back to that word of what it means going back to that word of what it means to be together.

to be together. to be together. So So So >> make eye contact on YouTube. We can't >> make eye contact on YouTube. We can't >> make eye contact on YouTube. We can't give each other a hug or shake hands. give each other a hug or shake hands. give each other a hug or shake hands. Like, there really is something a Like, there really is something a Like, there really is something a connectivity that's missing when we're connectivity that's missing when we're connectivity that's missing when we're just home watching online. Even if we're just home watching online. Even if we're just home watching online. Even if we're watching uh a church service of of a watching uh a church service of of a watching uh a church service of of a church that we're connected to or have church that we're connected to or have church that we're connected to or have attended in the past, there is a little attended in the past, there is a little attended in the past, there is a little more of a sense of of personal more of a sense of of personal more of a sense of of personal connection there, and maybe you're connection there, and maybe you're connection there, and maybe you're you're participating in the in the chat you're participating in the in the chat you're participating in the in the chat during the service or something. So, during the service or something. So, during the service or something. So, there's like a little bit of connection, there's like a little bit of connection, there's like a little bit of connection, but there's something really powerful but there's something really powerful but there's something really powerful about showing up in the same place as about showing up in the same place as about showing up in the same place as others, giving shared attention to others, giving shared attention to others, giving shared attention to worship, to hearing the word preached, worship, to hearing the word preached, worship, to hearing the word preached, to committing together to do God's work to committing together to do God's work to committing together to do God's work in the world, in the world, in the world, uh to waiting for God to show up and and uh to waiting for God to show up and and uh to waiting for God to show up and and do what only God can do. Yeah. do what only God can do. Yeah. do what only God can do. Yeah. And your message about And your message about And your message about about some appropriate reasons why about some appropriate reasons why about some appropriate reasons why people are distancing themselves from people are distancing themselves from people are distancing themselves from church or saying like, "Ah, like church, church or saying like, "Ah, like church, church or saying like, "Ah, like church, you know." you know." you know." Um to acknowledge that yes, 100%. And Um to acknowledge that yes, 100%. And Um to acknowledge that yes, 100%. And And you know what? Every single church And you know what? Every single church And you know what? Every single church is going to be completely full of is going to be completely full of is going to be completely full of sinful, broken people because that's sinful, broken people because that's sinful, broken people because that's what we are.

what we are. what we are. And so but it's also it's you know, it And so but it's also it's you know, it And so but it's also it's you know, it is okay to say, "You know what? is okay to say, "You know what? is okay to say, "You know what? Something is telling me that I should Something is telling me that I should Something is telling me that I should probably go and, you know, and that's probably go and, you know, and that's probably go and, you know, and that's something maybe a nudging of the spirit something maybe a nudging of the spirit something maybe a nudging of the spirit saying, you know, I think I should saying, you know, I think I should saying, you know, I think I should probably try something, you know, a probably try something, you know, a probably try something, you know, a different church, you know, this one different church, you know, this one different church, you know, this one down the street or whatever." down the street or whatever." down the street or whatever." >> Yep. And >> Yep. And >> Yep. And >> We We've all had the experience of going >> We We've all had the experience of going >> We We've all had the experience of going grocery shopping and getting home, and grocery shopping and getting home, and grocery shopping and getting home, and we discover that a loaf of bread that we we discover that a loaf of bread that we we discover that a loaf of bread that we bought is growing mold. Yeah. bought is growing mold. Yeah. bought is growing mold. Yeah. And And And >> There's nothing that disgusts me more, >> There's nothing that disgusts me more, >> There's nothing that disgusts me more, by the way. I I get I've by the way. I I get I've by the way. I I get I've I've never met someone who said, "Oh, I I've never met someone who said, "Oh, I I've never met someone who said, "Oh, I don't I don't eat anymore Yeah. because don't I don't eat anymore Yeah. because don't I don't eat anymore Yeah. because I got I got some moldy bread one time." I got I got some moldy bread one time." I got I got some moldy bread one time." Or "I don't eat bread anymore because Or "I don't eat bread anymore because Or "I don't eat bread anymore because sometimes bread gets moldy." Or "I don't sometimes bread gets moldy." Or "I don't sometimes bread gets moldy." Or "I don't ever shop at at that um grocery store ever shop at at that um grocery store ever shop at at that um grocery store anymore because I got moldy bread one anymore because I got moldy bread one anymore because I got moldy bread one time." No, you just become more vigilant time." No, you just become more vigilant time." No, you just become more vigilant about checking the bread before you buy about checking the bread before you buy about checking the bread before you buy it the next time to make sure that it's it the next time to make sure that it's it the next time to make sure that it's not moldy. So, I think what's happened not moldy. So, I think what's happened not moldy. So, I think what's happened is people have walked into church, is people have walked into church, is people have walked into church, they've seen moldy bread Mhm. at one they've seen moldy bread Mhm. at one they've seen moldy bread Mhm. at one level of level or another, and they've level of level or another, and they've level of level or another, and they've said, "I'm out." Yeah. Like, well, said, "I'm out." Yeah. Like, well, said, "I'm out." Yeah. Like, well, if you if if we are designed for if you if if we are designed for if you if if we are designed for connection with God and with each other, connection with God and with each other, connection with God and with each other, if God designed us so that we cannot if God designed us so that we cannot if God designed us so that we cannot flourish without it, then to cut flourish without it, then to cut flourish without it, then to cut yourself off from the church is actually yourself off from the church is actually yourself off from the church is actually to cut yourself off from the sustenance to cut yourself off from the sustenance to cut yourself off from the sustenance that you need. Exactly. Or that you need. Exactly. Or that you need. Exactly. Or maybe you've heard or read something maybe you've heard or read something maybe you've heard or read something that a pastor has said or done or and that a pastor has said or done or and that a pastor has said or done or and you're like, "I don't, you know, I don't you're like, "I don't, you know, I don't you're like, "I don't, you know, I don't agree with that. And therefore, you

agree with that. And therefore, you agree with that. And therefore, you know, and I think all churches must be know, and I think all churches must be know, and I think all churches must be like that. So, all of Christianity is like that. So, all of Christianity is like that. So, all of Christianity is bad." Or whatever it is. And that's just bad." Or whatever it is. And that's just bad." Or whatever it is. And that's just also not true. And so um you know, I also not true. And so um you know, I also not true. And so um you know, I would there's an encouragement to, you would there's an encouragement to, you would there's an encouragement to, you know, not just walk with grace, but know, not just walk with grace, but know, not just walk with grace, but we'll also walk with saying, "Okay, I'm we'll also walk with saying, "Okay, I'm we'll also walk with saying, "Okay, I'm not going to make one thing not going to make one thing not going to make one thing answer for everything." answer for everything." answer for everything." Um I think, you know, that's I think you Um I think, you know, that's I think you Um I think, you know, that's I think you can run into a dangerous situation then can run into a dangerous situation then can run into a dangerous situation then if you're like, "Well, this one person, if you're like, "Well, this one person, if you're like, "Well, this one person, you know, said this or did something I you know, said this or did something I you know, said this or did something I didn't agree with, and therefore, you didn't agree with, and therefore, you didn't agree with, and therefore, you know, the whole the whole tree is bad." know, the whole the whole tree is bad." know, the whole the whole tree is bad." Um that can that can be tough. So, I Um that can that can be tough. So, I Um that can that can be tough. So, I again, I want to acknowledge that that again, I want to acknowledge that that again, I want to acknowledge that that there is people who struggle with this, there is people who struggle with this, there is people who struggle with this, and I I I get that. I would encourage and I I I get that. I would encourage and I I I get that. I would encourage you to talk with somebody who you trust you to talk with somebody who you trust you to talk with somebody who you trust about it. Maybe you have a friend who about it. Maybe you have a friend who about it. Maybe you have a friend who is Christian, who has a church that they is Christian, who has a church that they is Christian, who has a church that they go to, and you can talk with them about go to, and you can talk with them about go to, and you can talk with them about it. Say, "I'm really struggling with it. Say, "I'm really struggling with it. Say, "I'm really struggling with this." And you know what? I bet you that this." And you know what? I bet you that this." And you know what? I bet you that person would love to have a talk with person would love to have a talk with person would love to have a talk with you about it, and just talk with you you about it, and just talk with you you about it, and just talk with you through it. So through it. So through it. So >> And you know, and it would be um >> And you know, and it would be um >> And you know, and it would be um probably a lot easier to re-engage the probably a lot easier to re-engage the probably a lot easier to re-engage the church if you could do it side by side church if you could do it side by side church if you could do it side by side with someone you already know. 100% with someone you already know. 100% with someone you already know. 100% agreed. So, just reaching out to someone agreed. So, just reaching out to someone agreed. So, just reaching out to someone and saying, "Hey, I'm thinking about and saying, "Hey, I'm thinking about and saying, "Hey, I'm thinking about visiting your church, but I really don't visiting your church, but I really don't visiting your church, but I really don't want to walk in by myself. Can we go want to walk in by myself. Can we go want to walk in by myself. Can we go together?"

together?" together?" And I And I I have no doubt that person And I And I I have no doubt that person And I And I I have no doubt that person would say, "Yes, please." Yes, exactly. would say, "Yes, please." Yes, exactly. would say, "Yes, please." Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And on the flip side, if you go to And on the flip side, if you go to And on the flip side, if you go to church, if you're one of those people church, if you're one of those people church, if you're one of those people who's all in and you're still connected, who's all in and you're still connected, who's all in and you're still connected, but you've noticed that someone is no but you've noticed that someone is no but you've noticed that someone is no longer coming, sometimes all it takes is longer coming, sometimes all it takes is longer coming, sometimes all it takes is a personal invitation. "Hey, I missed a personal invitation. "Hey, I missed a personal invitation. "Hey, I missed you on Sunday. I've I haven't seen you you on Sunday. I've I haven't seen you you on Sunday. I've I haven't seen you in a while. How you doing?" Um can we in a while. How you doing?" Um can we in a while. How you doing?" Um can we sit together next Sunday? I'd love to sit together next Sunday? I'd love to sit together next Sunday? I'd love to connect. And And some of the latest connect. And And some of the latest connect. And And some of the latest research is saying that research is saying that research is saying that a good percentage of those who've left a good percentage of those who've left a good percentage of those who've left the church the church the church would come back if they just had a would come back if they just had a would come back if they just had a personal invitation. But, there's this personal invitation. But, there's this personal invitation. But, there's this kind of added layer of pain that I kind of added layer of pain that I kind of added layer of pain that I stopped going and no one even seemed to stopped going and no one even seemed to stopped going and no one even seemed to notice. notice. notice. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And so if you noticed, say something. And so if you noticed, say something. And so if you noticed, say something. Yeah. Reach out to those who you haven't Yeah. Reach out to those who you haven't Yeah. Reach out to those who you haven't seen in a while and say, "Hey, I've been seen in a while and say, "Hey, I've been seen in a while and say, "Hey, I've been thinking about you guys. What's going thinking about you guys. What's going thinking about you guys. What's going on?" And on?" And on?" And um I think that's part of the kind of um I think that's part of the kind of um I think that's part of the kind of connection that we're supposed to be connection that we're supposed to be connection that we're supposed to be developing developing developing in the church. Is this is not just a an in the church. Is this is not just a an in the church. Is this is not just a an event we show up to as consumers, but event we show up to as consumers, but event we show up to as consumers, but we're becoming a family. And families we're becoming a family. And families we're becoming a family. And families look out for each other. Yeah. Thinking look out for each other. Yeah. Thinking look out for each other. Yeah. Thinking of it relationally. Yes, exactly. So So, of it relationally. Yes, exactly. So So, of it relationally. Yes, exactly. So So, in this book, Becoming God's Family, in this book, Becoming God's Family, in this book, Becoming God's Family, you talk about about the practice in the you talk about about the practice in the you talk about about the practice in the role of the church from two different role of the church from two different role of the church from two different perspectives a little bit, and I wanted perspectives a little bit, and I wanted perspectives a little bit, and I wanted to get into that with you.

to get into that with you. to get into that with you. Uh so So, there is embracing what we can Uh so So, there is embracing what we can Uh so So, there is embracing what we can do together and orienting around the do together and orienting around the do together and orienting around the truth of what we cannot do. So, there's truth of what we cannot do. So, there's truth of what we cannot do. So, there's what we do together, and then there's what we do together, and then there's what we do together, and then there's the things that we cannot do on our, you the things that we cannot do on our, you the things that we cannot do on our, you know, apart from the So, I'm excited to know, apart from the So, I'm excited to know, apart from the So, I'm excited to get into this. Let's talk first with get into this. Let's talk first with get into this. Let's talk first with what does the Bible talk about or say what does the Bible talk about or say what does the Bible talk about or say about the role and function of the about the role and function of the about the role and function of the church? Mhm. church? Mhm. church? Mhm. One of the surprises that I think is One of the surprises that I think is One of the surprises that I think is going to happen when people pick up this going to happen when people pick up this going to happen when people pick up this book Uh, and start reading is they see book Uh, and start reading is they see book Uh, and start reading is they see that it's about the church and they're that it's about the church and they're that it's about the church and they're going to assume this is a New Testament going to assume this is a New Testament going to assume this is a New Testament book. book. book. >> Yes. But I actually start with the story >> Yes. But I actually start with the story >> Yes. But I actually start with the story of Abraham. So, this is so I'm tracing of Abraham. So, this is so I'm tracing of Abraham. So, this is so I'm tracing the theme through the entire Bible of the theme through the entire Bible of the theme through the entire Bible of God's gathered community because we God's gathered community because we God's gathered community because we really already have that in the Old really already have that in the Old really already have that in the Old Testament throughout the Old Testament. Testament throughout the Old Testament. Testament throughout the Old Testament. So, um, I'm drawing lessons from stories So, um, I'm drawing lessons from stories So, um, I'm drawing lessons from stories of of the people of God gathered of of the people of God gathered of of the people of God gathered together around the presence of God. So, together around the presence of God. So, together around the presence of God. So, what are the things we do? Well, we what are the things we do? Well, we what are the things we do? Well, we gather together to wait for God to do do gather together to wait for God to do do gather together to wait for God to do do what only God can do. We gather together what only God can do. We gather together what only God can do. We gather together to hear the word preached to be to hear the word preached to be to hear the word preached to be reminded. Um, we you talked to earlier reminded. Um, we you talked to earlier reminded. Um, we you talked to earlier about people who are kind of done with about people who are kind of done with about people who are kind of done with church cuz they've been there done that.

church cuz they've been there done that. church cuz they've been there done that. >> Yeah. And I think one of the orienting >> Yeah. And I think one of the orienting >> Yeah. And I think one of the orienting shifts that we need is to recognize shifts that we need is to recognize shifts that we need is to recognize church is not primarily about learning church is not primarily about learning church is not primarily about learning something new. Yeah. If you are new to something new. Yeah. If you are new to something new. Yeah. If you are new to the to the faith, then you might the to the faith, then you might the to the faith, then you might actually be learning something new every actually be learning something new every actually be learning something new every week. But, um, if you're like me and week. But, um, if you're like me and week. But, um, if you're like me and you've got three theological degrees and you've got three theological degrees and you've got three theological degrees and uh, you've been in church all your life, uh, you've been in church all your life, uh, you've been in church all your life, it's a rare Sunday that I learn it's a rare Sunday that I learn it's a rare Sunday that I learn something I didn't hear before. something I didn't hear before. something I didn't hear before. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. However, However, However, the point of gathering is to to become the point of gathering is to to become the point of gathering is to to become re um, oriented to to re point again in re um, oriented to to re point again in re um, oriented to to re point again in the in the right direction to be the in the right direction to be the in the right direction to be reminded of the truth of God's word in reminded of the truth of God's word in reminded of the truth of God's word in relation to whatever I'm going through relation to whatever I'm going through relation to whatever I'm going through this week. this week. this week. >> Yeah. There's a kind of, um, application >> Yeah. There's a kind of, um, application >> Yeah. There's a kind of, um, application that happens as I consider the that happens as I consider the that happens as I consider the challenges of this week in light of the challenges of this week in light of the challenges of this week in light of the word of God. So, we're we're hearing word of God. So, we're we're hearing word of God. So, we're we're hearing together. together. together. We are worshiping God together. We are worshiping God together. We are worshiping God together. We live in a culture where, um, we like We live in a culture where, um, we like We live in a culture where, um, we like to put people and institutions up on to put people and institutions up on to put people and institutions up on pedestals. We like to praise them with pedestals. We like to praise them with pedestals. We like to praise them with likes and comments and follows and likes and comments and follows and likes and comments and follows and subscribes and all the ways we do this.

subscribes and all the ways we do this. subscribes and all the ways we do this. Um, higher and higher salaries and Um, higher and higher salaries and Um, higher and higher salaries and whatever, um, accolades. And it's whatever, um, accolades. And it's whatever, um, accolades. And it's important, so important for us to to important, so important for us to to important, so important for us to to reorient ourselves week after week and reorient ourselves week after week and reorient ourselves week after week and remind ourselves the only one worthy of remind ourselves the only one worthy of remind ourselves the only one worthy of praise is the God of the universe who praise is the God of the universe who praise is the God of the universe who came to us in the person of Jesus came to us in the person of Jesus came to us in the person of Jesus Christ. Christ. Christ. It's also increasingly rare for people It's also increasingly rare for people It's also increasingly rare for people to gather together in the same room and to gather together in the same room and to gather together in the same room and pay attention to the same thing. pay attention to the same thing. pay attention to the same thing. >> Yeah. Um, and so there's something truly >> Yeah. Um, and so there's something truly >> Yeah. Um, and so there's something truly countercultural happening on a Sunday countercultural happening on a Sunday countercultural happening on a Sunday morning when we're sitting together in morning when we're sitting together in morning when we're sitting together in the same room and we're not scrolling on the same room and we're not scrolling on the same room and we're not scrolling on our phones, we're not like listening to our phones, we're not like listening to our phones, we're not like listening to a podcast or watching a YouTube show. a podcast or watching a YouTube show. a podcast or watching a YouTube show. Like, we're actually all focused on Like, we're actually all focused on Like, we're actually all focused on what's happening together. We're all what's happening together. We're all what's happening together. We're all singing the same song together. And we singing the same song together. And we singing the same song together. And we don't even do this at home anymore. don't even do this at home anymore. don't even do this at home anymore. Like, it's increasingly rare for the Like, it's increasingly rare for the Like, it's increasingly rare for the family to watch the same show Yeah. family to watch the same show Yeah. family to watch the same show Yeah. together. Um, or to sit around the same together. Um, or to sit around the same together. Um, or to sit around the same table and have a conversation where table and have a conversation where table and have a conversation where we're not we're not we're not distracted because we're on our devices distracted because we're on our devices distracted because we're on our devices during the meal. And so, I think it's so during the meal. And so, I think it's so during the meal. And so, I think it's so important for us to gather around the important for us to gather around the important for us to gather around the word of God and the worship of God word of God and the worship of God word of God and the worship of God together in the same room. Yeah. And together in the same room. Yeah. And together in the same room. Yeah. And then we also are being reoriented to the then we also are being reoriented to the then we also are being reoriented to the kind of work that God has called us to kind of work that God has called us to kind of work that God has called us to do. So, if you're paying attention, I'm do. So, if you're paying attention, I'm do. So, if you're paying attention, I'm alliterating here. We're waiting for alliterating here. We're waiting for alliterating here. We're waiting for God, worshiping him, hearing from his God, worshiping him, hearing from his God, worshiping him, hearing from his word, and being involved in his work.

word, and being involved in his work. word, and being involved in his work. >> Yeah. And the scriptures make clear over >> Yeah. And the scriptures make clear over >> Yeah. And the scriptures make clear over and over what his work is. We're and over what his work is. We're and over what his work is. We're supposed to fill the earth and subdue supposed to fill the earth and subdue supposed to fill the earth and subdue it, care for creation, we're supposed to it, care for creation, we're supposed to it, care for creation, we're supposed to represent God's character to a watching represent God's character to a watching represent God's character to a watching world, and and Exodus fleshes out what world, and and Exodus fleshes out what world, and and Exodus fleshes out what that should look like in all sorts of that should look like in all sorts of that should look like in all sorts of areas like caring for the widow and the areas like caring for the widow and the areas like caring for the widow and the fatherless, and, um, making sure not to fatherless, and, um, making sure not to fatherless, and, um, making sure not to mistreat the foreigner. mistreat the foreigner. mistreat the foreigner. We're supposed to be ensuring that We're supposed to be ensuring that We're supposed to be ensuring that everyone in our household has a rest. everyone in our household has a rest. everyone in our household has a rest. You know, there's all sorts of ways that You know, there's all sorts of ways that You know, there's all sorts of ways that we're supposed to be participating in we're supposed to be participating in we're supposed to be participating in God's work in the world, loving our God's work in the world, loving our God's work in the world, loving our neighbor. Um, neighbor. Um, neighbor. Um, so, yeah, there's lots for us to do so, yeah, there's lots for us to do so, yeah, there's lots for us to do together. together. together. Yeah, I think uh, something that's worth Yeah, I think uh, something that's worth Yeah, I think uh, something that's worth remembering, too, and we were talking remembering, too, and we were talking remembering, too, and we were talking about the being in God's word and we about the being in God's word and we about the being in God's word and we talked about how sometimes we get to a talked about how sometimes we get to a talked about how sometimes we get to a place where we feel like we've heard it place where we feel like we've heard it place where we feel like we've heard it all, uh, from the messages that come on all, uh, from the messages that come on all, uh, from the messages that come on the weekend. the weekend. the weekend. Um, Um, Um, I think it's important to remember that I think it's important to remember that I think it's important to remember that your pastor your pastor your pastor Mhm.

Mhm. Mhm. Y- you should be able to assume Y- you should be able to assume Y- you should be able to assume that your pastor is constantly that your pastor is constantly that your pastor is constantly praying about in conversation with God praying about in conversation with God praying about in conversation with God and seeking the leadership of the spirit and seeking the leadership of the spirit and seeking the leadership of the spirit of "What does my congregation, this of "What does my congregation, this of "What does my congregation, this congregation, Mhm. congregation, Mhm. congregation, Mhm. >> need to hear about this weekend?" >> need to hear about this weekend?" >> need to hear about this weekend?" >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And so, even if >> And so, even if >> And so, even if you are listening and even if for you are listening and even if for you are listening and even if for whatever reason it doesn't feel like whatever reason it doesn't feel like whatever reason it doesn't feel like that weekend's message pertains directly that weekend's message pertains directly that weekend's message pertains directly to your situation in life right now. to your situation in life right now. to your situation in life right now. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. It very well might be to your neighbor It very well might be to your neighbor It very well might be to your neighbor or to, you know, your friend who might or to, you know, your friend who might or to, you know, your friend who might be walking with you. And so, be walking with you. And so, be walking with you. And so, >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> you can, you know, again, where this is >> you can, you know, again, where this is >> you can, you know, again, where this is encouraged cuz you are this is the encouraged cuz you are this is the encouraged cuz you are this is the family of God that is coming together, family of God that is coming together, family of God that is coming together, the body of Christ operating together, the body of Christ operating together, the body of Christ operating together, Yep. Yep. Yep. >> that you can, you know, then >> that you can, you know, then >> that you can, you know, then talk with somebody, "H- Hey, but how was talk with somebody, "H- Hey, but how was talk with somebody, "H- Hey, but how was this message for you, you know?" this message for you, you know?" this message for you, you know?" >> Yeah. And Cuz it's not about it's not >> Yeah. And Cuz it's not about it's not >> Yeah. And Cuz it's not about it's not about me. about me. about me. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> So, it doesn't always have to be >> So, it doesn't always have to be >> So, it doesn't always have to be directed to me every week.

directed to me every week. directed to me every week. >> Yeah, it's about it's about us as a >> Yeah, it's about it's about us as a >> Yeah, it's about it's about us as a collective Yes. collective Yes. collective Yes. >> as this family of God that is coming >> as this family of God that is coming >> as this family of God that is coming together to to be reoriented, re put together to to be reoriented, re put together to to be reoriented, re put back, you know, like towards God. And back, you know, like towards God. And back, you know, like towards God. And that may be stirring something up in that may be stirring something up in that may be stirring something up in somebody in a different way that is somebody in a different way that is somebody in a different way that is stirring something up in you. That's stirring something up in you. That's stirring something up in you. That's right. And regardless, it's still like right. And regardless, it's still like right. And regardless, it's still like there is a work that the spirit does there is a work that the spirit does there is a work that the spirit does when the family is together. That when the family is together. That when the family is together. That >> and so, having that time of praise >> and so, having that time of praise >> and so, having that time of praise together, being reminded of the together, being reminded of the together, being reminded of the ministries that you can join in to serve ministries that you can join in to serve ministries that you can join in to serve God Mhm. together. Like, there is this God Mhm. together. Like, there is this God Mhm. together. Like, there is this refocusing that helps us because refocusing that helps us because refocusing that helps us because God only knows how unfocused we get God only knows how unfocused we get God only knows how unfocused we get during the week. during the week. during the week. Yeah. So, that opportunity to come back Yeah. So, that opportunity to come back Yeah. So, that opportunity to come back together and to just refo- even if it's, together and to just refo- even if it's, together and to just refo- even if it's, you know, just taking that, you know, you know, just taking that, you know, you know, just taking that, you know, as a collective big breath together. as a collective big breath together. as a collective big breath together. Yes. Breathing in what the spirit is uh Yes. Breathing in what the spirit is uh Yes. Breathing in what the spirit is uh is giving in that time together is is is giving in that time together is is is giving in that time together is is powerful. Um, so, yes, we do, um, powerful. Um, so, yes, we do, um, powerful. Um, so, yes, we do, um, have a tendency to be swayed back have a tendency to be swayed back have a tendency to be swayed back towards more individualism. So, let towards more individualism. So, let towards more individualism. So, let church be that reminder of the church be that reminder of the church be that reminder of the collective, of that relationship.

collective, of that relationship. collective, of that relationship. >> Um, of the importance of that. Um, and >> Um, of the importance of that. Um, and >> Um, of the importance of that. Um, and if you have like a small group that if you have like a small group that if you have like a small group that you're in doing the week, too, that's you're in doing the week, too, that's you're in doing the week, too, that's another example of church that that that another example of church that that that another example of church that that that truly is cuz you're coming together as a truly is cuz you're coming together as a truly is cuz you're coming together as a family. family. family. >> Exactly. It's and that's especially >> Exactly. It's and that's especially >> Exactly. It's and that's especially important for those who are in giant important for those who are in giant important for those who are in giant churches. Um, like yours. churches. Um, like yours. churches. Um, like yours. >> Like ours, yeah. Where, yeah, like where >> Like ours, yeah. Where, yeah, like where >> Like ours, yeah. Where, yeah, like where there's so many people that you might there's so many people that you might there's so many people that you might actually be absent multiple weeks in a actually be absent multiple weeks in a actually be absent multiple weeks in a row and nobody would notice because the row and nobody would notice because the row and nobody would notice because the the room is too big to be able to tell. the room is too big to be able to tell. the room is too big to be able to tell. And so, to become part of a smaller And so, to become part of a smaller And so, to become part of a smaller community of people who are committed to community of people who are committed to community of people who are committed to one another, to to navigating life one another, to to navigating life one another, to to navigating life together, to praying for each other, together, to praying for each other, together, to praying for each other, showing up for each other, that's so showing up for each other, that's so showing up for each other, that's so important. We talk about a lot from important. We talk about a lot from important. We talk about a lot from Acts, right? They met in the temple Acts, right? They met in the temple Acts, right? They met in the temple courts and house to house and that's courts and house to house and that's courts and house to house and that's that's that's where we talk about the that's that's where we talk about the that's that's where we talk about the Yeah. the value and benefit of small Yeah. the value and benefit of small Yeah. the value and benefit of small groups and how you need to have that groups and how you need to have that groups and how you need to have that tight-knit environment. Um, tight-knit environment. Um, tight-knit environment. Um, so so that's talking about I but by the so so that's talking about I but by the so so that's talking about I but by the way, I love the way, I love the way, I love the alliteration, all of the W's. alliteration, all of the W's. alliteration, all of the W's. That's great. It's helpful. I guess I'm That's great. It's helpful. I guess I'm That's great. It's helpful. I guess I'm a preacher at heart.

a preacher at heart. a preacher at heart. >> You got it. I was going to make a joke, but I was I was going to make a joke, but I was like, yeah. like, yeah. like, yeah. I was like, I was like, I was like, well, I'll just say, you know, it's like well, I'll just say, you know, it's like well, I'll just say, you know, it's like being back from Rick cuz Rick was always being back from Rick cuz Rick was always being back from Rick cuz Rick was always good with all the all the all the all good with all the all the all the all good with all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all the all all of the all the all the all the all all of the all the all the all the all all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the of the all of the all of the all of the of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of all of the all of the all of the all of all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all the all of the all of the all of the all the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the of the all of the all of the all of the of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of all of the all of the all of the all of all of the all of the all of the all of all of all of all of all of all of all all of all of all of all of all of all all of all of all of all of all of all of all of all of all of all of all of of all of all of all of all of all of of all of all of all of all of all of all of all of all of of all of all of of all of all of all of of all of all of of all of all of all of of all of all of of So, towards the end of the book, you So, towards the end of the book, you So, towards the end of the book, you have this great line that really stood have this great line that really stood have this great line that really stood out to me where it says, "Ironically, out to me where it says, "Ironically, out to me where it says, "Ironically, the church is an institution oriented the church is an institution oriented the church is an institution oriented around the truth of what it cannot do." around the truth of what it cannot do." around the truth of what it cannot do." So, we just talked a lot about these So, we just talked a lot about these So, we just talked a lot about these words of what the church does, the role words of what the church does, the role words of what the church does, the role and the function of the church. Yeah. and the function of the church. Yeah. and the function of the church. Yeah. >> So, unpack for us how we are oriented >> So, unpack for us how we are oriented >> So, unpack for us how we are oriented around what we cannot do. Yeah. We around what we cannot do. Yeah. We around what we cannot do. Yeah. We cannot uh, demand that Christ return on cannot uh, demand that Christ return on cannot uh, demand that Christ return on our timetable. Uh, we we don't know. No our timetable. Uh, we we don't know. No our timetable. Uh, we we don't know. No one knows the day or the hour. Um, one knows the day or the hour. Um, one knows the day or the hour. Um, somebody tried to say they knew a few somebody tried to say they knew a few somebody tried to say they knew a few weeks ago and it didn't work out. weeks ago and it didn't work out. weeks ago and it didn't work out. It's happened a number of times. I It's happened a number of times. I It's happened a number of times. I remember PS remember PS remember PS >> happened over and over that someone uh >> happened over and over that someone uh >> happened over and over that someone uh sets the date for Christ's return and sets the date for Christ's return and sets the date for Christ's return and then it passes and here we are still.

then it passes and here we are still. then it passes and here we are still. Um, we cannot uh, we God is not at our Um, we cannot uh, we God is not at our Um, we cannot uh, we God is not at our beck and call. Yeah. And so, there's beck and call. Yeah. And so, there's beck and call. Yeah. And so, there's something profoundly uh humbling about something profoundly uh humbling about something profoundly uh humbling about gathering together as the church because gathering together as the church because gathering together as the church because we can't make, you know, we can't like we can't make, you know, we can't like we can't make, you know, we can't like say, "Okay, so Jesus is coming back in say, "Okay, so Jesus is coming back in say, "Okay, so Jesus is coming back in uh 2037. uh 2037. uh 2037. So, here's our 12-year plan leading up So, here's our 12-year plan leading up So, here's our 12-year plan leading up to that." Like, we can't actually manage to that." Like, we can't actually manage to that." Like, we can't actually manage and anticipate and anticipate and anticipate exactly what God will do. We don't know exactly what God will do. We don't know exactly what God will do. We don't know when and how the spirit will show up. We when and how the spirit will show up. We when and how the spirit will show up. We don't know uh what world events will don't know uh what world events will don't know uh what world events will happen and we usually don't have the happen and we usually don't have the happen and we usually don't have the means to fix what's wrong in the world. means to fix what's wrong in the world. means to fix what's wrong in the world. We can't solve the problems of wars We can't solve the problems of wars We can't solve the problems of wars between nations or solve world hunger or between nations or solve world hunger or between nations or solve world hunger or any of the, you know, big problems. We any of the, you know, big problems. We any of the, you know, big problems. We can't stop a hurricane from hitting, but can't stop a hurricane from hitting, but can't stop a hurricane from hitting, but we can gather together and in dependence we can gather together and in dependence we can gather together and in dependence on God, we can pray. Yeah. Uh, we can on God, we can pray. Yeah. Uh, we can on God, we can pray. Yeah. Uh, we can recognize we need the Lord, we need his recognize we need the Lord, we need his recognize we need the Lord, we need his empowerment, we need his wisdom, we need empowerment, we need his wisdom, we need empowerment, we need his wisdom, we need his healing. And so, it's ironic that we his healing. And so, it's ironic that we his healing. And so, it's ironic that we like build these institutions like build these institutions like build these institutions that that are so different than other that that are so different than other that that are so different than other institutions. You know, a store or institutions. You know, a store or institutions. You know, a store or business is oriented around what it's business is oriented around what it's business is oriented around what it's offering you. Yeah. And the church does offering you. Yeah. And the church does offering you. Yeah. And the church does offer something. It offers community to offer something. It offers community to offer something. It offers community to those who have recognized collectively, those who have recognized collectively, those who have recognized collectively, we don't have what it takes to do life we don't have what it takes to do life we don't have what it takes to do life on our own. We need each other and we on our own. We need each other and we on our own. We need each other and we need the spirit of God. So we're going need the spirit of God. So we're going need the spirit of God. So we're going to get together in acknowledgement of to get together in acknowledgement of to get together in acknowledgement of that. Yeah.

that. Yeah. that. Yeah. Yeah, even even at its most fundamental, Yeah, even even at its most fundamental, Yeah, even even at its most fundamental, right? It's not the church that saves us right? It's not the church that saves us right? It's not the church that saves us for some, you know, in salvation. It's for some, you know, in salvation. It's for some, you know, in salvation. It's Jesus, right? Jesus, right? Jesus, right? Exactly. Exactly. It is this collective Exactly. Exactly. It is this collective Exactly. Exactly. It is this collective that's coming together almost in that's coming together almost in that's coming together almost in recognition recognition recognition of what of of our dependence on God. And of what of of our dependence on God. And of what of of our dependence on God. And I I I love that phrase that you used I I I love that phrase that you used I I I love that phrase that you used because it's so true. Every weekend because it's so true. Every weekend because it's so true. Every weekend every every collective body of Christ every every collective body of Christ every every collective body of Christ together is together is together is is at its heart a recognition of God, is at its heart a recognition of God, is at its heart a recognition of God, thank you for saving this broken sinner thank you for saving this broken sinner thank you for saving this broken sinner that I am. Um, you know, that's why like that I am. Um, you know, that's why like that I am. Um, you know, that's why like there's there's there's you know, at at Saddleback we have um you know, at at Saddleback we have um you know, at at Saddleback we have um Celebrate Recovery and there's nothing Celebrate Recovery and there's nothing Celebrate Recovery and there's nothing quite like the CR Summit every year quite like the CR Summit every year quite like the CR Summit every year where you have this where you have this where you have this large worship center that is filled with large worship center that is filled with large worship center that is filled with people who are just in complete um people who are just in complete um people who are just in complete um gratitude and thanks and humility over gratitude and thanks and humility over gratitude and thanks and humility over like being being saved and rescued out like being being saved and rescued out like being being saved and rescued out of whatever it, you know, their hurt or of whatever it, you know, their hurt or of whatever it, you know, their hurt or their habit or hang-up that's done with their habit or hang-up that's done with their habit or hang-up that's done with it. The recognition that I couldn't fix it. The recognition that I couldn't fix it. The recognition that I couldn't fix this. I needed God to do it for me.

this. I needed God to do it for me. this. I needed God to do it for me. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. >> a community to walk with me as I as I >> a community to walk with me as I as I >> a community to walk with me as I as I waited on God. Exactly. There's so much waited on God. Exactly. There's so much waited on God. Exactly. There's so much uh uh uh power in that with that comes from the power in that with that comes from the power in that with that comes from the spirit that that that comes in God spirit that that that comes in God spirit that that that comes in God saying, I want you to do this together. saying, I want you to do this together. saying, I want you to do this together. I want to be a part of this with you I want to be a part of this with you I want to be a part of this with you guys. guys. guys. A- A- A- a- as as a community as a a true a- as as a community as a a true a- as as a community as a a true community. And um community. And um community. And um so having having that collective so having having that collective so having having that collective recognition of our dependence is so recognition of our dependence is so recognition of our dependence is so helpful if we as we genuinely sit with helpful if we as we genuinely sit with helpful if we as we genuinely sit with it, right? So as you are listening to it, right? So as you are listening to it, right? So as you are listening to this, next time you go to church this, next time you go to church this, next time you go to church think about this think about this think about this as you're standing there but then you as you're standing there but then you as you're standing there but then you you know, maybe you're standing for you you know, maybe you're standing for you you know, maybe you're standing for you know, for the know, for the know, for the part with song, the worship part or part with song, the worship part or part with song, the worship part or maybe you're sitting listening and just maybe you're sitting listening and just maybe you're sitting listening and just think around you know, think around you know, think around you know, take a moment to look around and be like take a moment to look around and be like take a moment to look around and be like we're all here in collective dependence we're all here in collective dependence we're all here in collective dependence and there's something to that. As I go and there's something to that. As I go and there's something to that. As I go back back back on Monday and I think about all the on Monday and I think about all the on Monday and I think about all the things that I need to do in my job to things that I need to do in my job to things that I need to do in my job to you know, succeed, you know, to meet the you know, succeed, you know, to meet the you know, succeed, you know, to meet the deadline, to hit the quota, deadline, to hit the quota, deadline, to hit the quota, you know, whatever it is. Yeah. This is you know, whatever it is. Yeah. This is you know, whatever it is. Yeah. This is an opportunity for us to realize you an opportunity for us to realize you an opportunity for us to realize you know, and just to be grateful for our know, and just to be grateful for our know, and just to be grateful for our dependence. And that may, you know, I I dependence. And that may, you know, I I dependence. And that may, you know, I I think that almost sounds unnerving that think that almost sounds unnerving that think that almost sounds unnerving that we can be grateful for our doing, you we can be grateful for our doing, you we can be grateful for our doing, you know, that that that we are in need know, that that that we are in need know, that that that we are in need But it's but it's true and when you

But it's but it's true and when you But it's but it's true and when you when when you're able to refocus in on when when you're able to refocus in on when when you're able to refocus in on the gratitude side of things, it changes the gratitude side of things, it changes the gratitude side of things, it changes completely because you're okay with completely because you're okay with completely because you're okay with humility. You're okay with dependence in humility. You're okay with dependence in humility. You're okay with dependence in a world that doesn't value these things. a world that doesn't value these things. a world that doesn't value these things. That's right. Um, it's it's it's That's right. Um, it's it's it's That's right. Um, it's it's it's something that we can even rest in and something that we can even rest in and something that we can even rest in and that's what God invites us to. Yes. Yes. that's what God invites us to. Yes. Yes. that's what God invites us to. Yes. Yes. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And that's a that's a word too for those And that's a that's a word too for those And that's a that's a word too for those who plan the services and those who lead who plan the services and those who lead who plan the services and those who lead our churches to remind yourselves, this our churches to remind yourselves, this our churches to remind yourselves, this is not about you and it's not up to you is not about you and it's not up to you is not about you and it's not up to you to make this happen in a certain way. to make this happen in a certain way. to make this happen in a certain way. You can't just like get all the the You can't just like get all the the You can't just like get all the the levers and strings just right so that levers and strings just right so that levers and strings just right so that boom, the spirit will fall. Like this is boom, the spirit will fall. Like this is boom, the spirit will fall. Like this is not something you control. not something you control. not something you control. And can you lead others into a posture And can you lead others into a posture And can you lead others into a posture of openness to what God might do and a of openness to what God might do and a of openness to what God might do and a and a recognition that we can't control and a recognition that we can't control and a recognition that we can't control God but that we're deeply grateful for God but that we're deeply grateful for God but that we're deeply grateful for the ways that he connects us, the way he the ways that he connects us, the way he the ways that he connects us, the way he meets us as we gather. meets us as we gather. meets us as we gather. I'm reminded there's something when we I'm reminded there's something when we I'm reminded there's something when we were running retreats, there was were running retreats, there was were running retreats, there was something that we always um something that we always um something that we always um taught about at the beginning of taught about at the beginning of taught about at the beginning of retreats, which is retreats, which is retreats, which is you may be coming on this retreat you may be coming on this retreat you may be coming on this retreat expecting an experience. Like, you know, expecting an experience. Like, you know, expecting an experience. Like, you know, expecting to walk away feeling expecting to walk away feeling expecting to walk away feeling different.

different. different. Um, and that's not guaranteed. Like and Um, and that's not guaranteed. Like and Um, and that's not guaranteed. Like and you know, but it doesn't mean that God you know, but it doesn't mean that God you know, but it doesn't mean that God isn't working in you. It doesn't mean isn't working in you. It doesn't mean isn't working in you. It doesn't mean that he's not pleased that you're here that he's not pleased that you're here that he's not pleased that you're here and will meet you in the moment. And the and will meet you in the moment. And the and will meet you in the moment. And the same is true for church. I think there same is true for church. I think there same is true for church. I think there are people who who go, well, while I'm are people who who go, well, while I'm are people who who go, well, while I'm going to church, I should walk away going to church, I should walk away going to church, I should walk away expecting to feel change, expecting to expecting to feel change, expecting to expecting to feel change, expecting to feel a certain way or whatever. Yeah. feel a certain way or whatever. Yeah. feel a certain way or whatever. Yeah. And um And um And um and this is just a, you know, a helpful and this is just a, you know, a helpful and this is just a, you know, a helpful reminder that you know, reminder that you know, reminder that you know, sometimes all God wants is that sometimes all God wants is that sometimes all God wants is that obedience of saying, I'm going to go and obedience of saying, I'm going to go and obedience of saying, I'm going to go and be a part of the family today and that's be a part of the family today and that's be a part of the family today and that's okay. And you may not feel any different okay. And you may not feel any different okay. And you may not feel any different afterwards and that is okay. We we are afterwards and that is okay. We we are afterwards and that is okay. We we are not always in a position to see what God not always in a position to see what God not always in a position to see what God is up to. We don't know what is up to. We don't know what is up to. We don't know what encouragement someone is feeling because encouragement someone is feeling because encouragement someone is feeling because they saw us there. Exactly. Because they they saw us there. Exactly. Because they they saw us there. Exactly. Because they felt a little less alone. felt a little less alone. felt a little less alone. We also, I think another illustration We also, I think another illustration We also, I think another illustration that's helped me that's helped me that's helped me recognize the importance of a Sunday recognize the importance of a Sunday recognize the importance of a Sunday morning service is that it is the the morning service is that it is the the morning service is that it is the the illustration of a compass. illustration of a compass. illustration of a compass. You know, a compass is supposed to point You know, a compass is supposed to point You know, a compass is supposed to point north north north and usually they do, but sometimes if and usually they do, but sometimes if and usually they do, but sometimes if they've been sitting next to a something they've been sitting next to a something they've been sitting next to a something magnetic or something metal, they can magnetic or something metal, they can magnetic or something metal, they can get off kilter just a little bit.

get off kilter just a little bit. get off kilter just a little bit. And if a compass is pointing 5° off And if a compass is pointing 5° off And if a compass is pointing 5° off you go on a 600-mile journey and you end you go on a 600-mile journey and you end you go on a 600-mile journey and you end up in a very different destination, up in a very different destination, up in a very different destination, right? So it's really important for the right? So it's really important for the right? So it's really important for the compass to be calibrated so that it's compass to be calibrated so that it's compass to be calibrated so that it's pointing north and I really think that pointing north and I really think that pointing north and I really think that church is often just church is often just church is often just helping us refocus and reorient helping us refocus and reorient helping us refocus and reorient ourselves, ah, this is my goal in life. ourselves, ah, this is my goal in life. ourselves, ah, this is my goal in life. My goal is to worship God and to be My goal is to worship God and to be My goal is to worship God and to be faithful to him, not to climb the faithful to him, not to climb the faithful to him, not to climb the corporate ladder, not to be popular, not corporate ladder, not to be popular, not corporate ladder, not to be popular, not to get more likes on social media. My to get more likes on social media. My to get more likes on social media. My goal is to worship. Yeah. And that and goal is to worship. Yeah. And that and goal is to worship. Yeah. And that and we might not even feel the calibration we might not even feel the calibration we might not even feel the calibration happening as we're gathered together, happening as we're gathered together, happening as we're gathered together, but if there's a 1° difference that's but if there's a 1° difference that's but if there's a 1° difference that's made in our hearts, then it was worth made in our hearts, then it was worth made in our hearts, then it was worth showing up because that's going to have showing up because that's going to have showing up because that's going to have a a tremendous impact on where we end a a tremendous impact on where we end a a tremendous impact on where we end up. And I have watched over and over up. And I have watched over and over up. And I have watched over and over again people saying, oh, I still believe again people saying, oh, I still believe again people saying, oh, I still believe but I don't need church. And over time but I don't need church. And over time but I don't need church. And over time what happens is that compass gets what happens is that compass gets what happens is that compass gets uh bent uh bent uh bent further and further away further and further away further and further away from God's true purpose for us.

from God's true purpose for us. from God's true purpose for us. And I've watched people just sort of And I've watched people just sort of And I've watched people just sort of um it's like it doesn't their their um it's like it doesn't their their um it's like it doesn't their their hearts, their passion for the Lord and hearts, their passion for the Lord and hearts, their passion for the Lord and his word and his people are not his word and his people are not his word and his people are not rekindled week after week and the fire rekindled week after week and the fire rekindled week after week and the fire dies out, the compass gets off course. dies out, the compass gets off course. dies out, the compass gets off course. Uh we really were not made to walk the Uh we really were not made to walk the Uh we really were not made to walk the life of faith alone. life of faith alone. life of faith alone. What is your prayer for the church in What is your prayer for the church in What is your prayer for the church in this season? Mhm. Yeah, I would love to this season? Mhm. Yeah, I would love to this season? Mhm. Yeah, I would love to pray for those listening um and my pray for those listening um and my pray for those listening um and my prayer really is that those who've prayer really is that those who've prayer really is that those who've walked away would feel um walked away would feel um walked away would feel um the God's invitation to come back. the God's invitation to come back. the God's invitation to come back. And that those who are in the church And that those who are in the church And that those who are in the church would would would would have a renewed vision for what it would have a renewed vision for what it would have a renewed vision for what it is we're doing when we gather. Well, would you mind wrapping us up in Well, would you mind wrapping us up in prayer and and I will say thank you prayer and and I will say thank you prayer and and I will say thank you right now for for for your time today. right now for for for your time today. right now for for for your time today. Thank you for Thank you for Thank you for the conversation around the church uh the conversation around the church uh the conversation around the church uh becoming God's family. The link is in becoming God's family. The link is in becoming God's family. The link is in the show notes. It releases the show notes. It releases the show notes. It releases a a week from today. a a week from today. a a week from today. And um yeah, I just really enjoy getting And um yeah, I just really enjoy getting And um yeah, I just really enjoy getting to talk with you about the church.

to talk with you about the church. to talk with you about the church. >> thank you Jason for this invitation. So >> thank you Jason for this invitation. So >> thank you Jason for this invitation. So would you close us in prayer for the would you close us in prayer for the would you close us in prayer for the church? My pleasure. church? My pleasure. church? My pleasure. Lord, we are so grateful for the Lord, we are so grateful for the Lord, we are so grateful for the reminder that you don't want us to be reminder that you don't want us to be reminder that you don't want us to be alone, that you say it's not good for us alone, that you say it's not good for us alone, that you say it's not good for us to be alone. to be alone. to be alone. And so I pray for anyone out there who's And so I pray for anyone out there who's And so I pray for anyone out there who's listening. I pray for the person who has listening. I pray for the person who has listening. I pray for the person who has felt profoundly alone. felt profoundly alone. felt profoundly alone. Maybe they've Maybe they've Maybe they've been showing up at church week after been showing up at church week after been showing up at church week after week but they don't feel connected. week but they don't feel connected. week but they don't feel connected. Would you help them to see ways that Would you help them to see ways that Would you help them to see ways that they can connect? they can connect? they can connect? I pray for pastors and church leaders I pray for pastors and church leaders I pray for pastors and church leaders who are listening who maybe are who are listening who maybe are who are listening who maybe are realizing in this moment that realizing in this moment that realizing in this moment that they've been going about this they've been going about this they've been going about this in the wrong way. They've been thinking in the wrong way. They've been thinking in the wrong way. They've been thinking of church as something that it's not and of church as something that it's not and of church as something that it's not and I pray that you would renew their vision I pray that you would renew their vision I pray that you would renew their vision to gather people who are willing to wait to gather people who are willing to wait to gather people who are willing to wait for God to act uh to listen to his word for God to act uh to listen to his word for God to act uh to listen to his word to worship him to worship him to worship him with their lives and to participate in with their lives and to participate in with their lives and to participate in his work. And Lord, I pray especially his work. And Lord, I pray especially his work. And Lord, I pray especially for the person who has walked away for the person who has walked away for the person who has walked away who is listening now maybe thinking that who is listening now maybe thinking that who is listening now maybe thinking that this was going to be a substitute for this was going to be a substitute for this was going to be a substitute for church attendance. Maybe they're hurt.

church attendance. Maybe they're hurt. church attendance. Maybe they're hurt. Maybe they're just tired and overwhelmed Maybe they're just tired and overwhelmed Maybe they're just tired and overwhelmed and they can't figure out how to make and they can't figure out how to make and they can't figure out how to make time for church. time for church. time for church. Would you gently lead them back? Would Would you gently lead them back? Would Would you gently lead them back? Would you give them the courage to walk you give them the courage to walk you give them the courage to walk through those doors again and would you through those doors again and would you through those doors again and would you reward them with a connection with reward them with a connection with reward them with a connection with others and a connection with you that others and a connection with you that others and a connection with you that that will help them to become all that that will help them to become all that that will help them to become all that you mean for them to be. you mean for them to be. you mean for them to be. We pray this in gratitude We pray this in gratitude We pray this in gratitude for uh for for creating us for for uh for for creating us for for uh for for creating us for community. community. community. And I pray that you'd give us the And I pray that you'd give us the And I pray that you'd give us the courage and the stick-to-it-iveness that courage and the stick-to-it-iveness that courage and the stick-to-it-iveness that we would that we would be willing to we would that we would be willing to we would that we would be willing to navigate the hard parts of community so navigate the hard parts of community so navigate the hard parts of community so that we can experience its blessings. We that we can experience its blessings. We that we can experience its blessings. We pray all this in Jesus' name. pray all this in Jesus' name. pray all this in Jesus' name. [Applause] [Music] [Music] If you enjoyed this episode, consider If you enjoyed this episode, consider If you enjoyed this episode, consider giving us a rating or review on iTunes. giving us a rating or review on iTunes. giving us a rating or review on iTunes. If you do, you'll help other people find If you do, you'll help other people find If you do, you'll help other people find us in the future. You can also listen to us in the future. You can also listen to us in the future. You can also listen to these episodes on YouTube. Just these episodes on YouTube. Just these episodes on YouTube. Just subscribe to the Saddleback Church subscribe to the Saddleback Church subscribe to the Saddleback Church YouTube channel for these conversations YouTube channel for these conversations YouTube channel for these conversations plus lots of other video content. And if plus lots of other video content. And if plus lots of other video content. And if you were already listening to us on you were already listening to us on you were already listening to us on YouTube, subscribe to the Doable YouTube, subscribe to the Doable YouTube, subscribe to the Doable Discipleship podcast on Apple podcast or Discipleship podcast on Apple podcast or Discipleship podcast on Apple podcast or your favorite podcasting so you can your favorite podcasting so you can your favorite podcasting so you can listen in the car or wherever else you listen in the car or wherever else you listen in the car or wherever else you go. Don't forget uh to visit go. Don't forget uh to visit go. Don't forget uh to visit saddleback.com/doable saddleback.com/doable saddleback.com/doable to check out all of our previous to check out all of our previous to check out all of our previous episodes. And you can go to episodes. And you can go to episodes. And you can go to saddleback.com/grow saddleback.com/grow saddleback.com/grow to find spiritual growth resources and to find spiritual growth resources and to find spiritual growth resources and view a calendar of upcoming events.

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