E444 The Man You're Meant to Be with John Simons

[Music] [Music] This is a Saddleback Church podcast. This is a Saddleback Church podcast. This is a Saddleback Church podcast. >> As scripture reveals, the kind of wisdom >> As scripture reveals, the kind of wisdom >> As scripture reveals, the kind of wisdom we drink in ultimately guides our we drink in ultimately guides our we drink in ultimately guides our choices. It conditions our thoughts and choices. It conditions our thoughts and choices. It conditions our thoughts and molds our character and habits to become molds our character and habits to become molds our character and habits to become who we are. It influences the longings who we are. It influences the longings who we are. It influences the longings and desires of our heart and the ways we and desires of our heart and the ways we and desires of our heart and the ways we seek to find meaning. The right question seek to find meaning. The right question seek to find meaning. The right question then becomes, "What kind of wisdom are then becomes, "What kind of wisdom are then becomes, "What kind of wisdom are we currently being guided by?" we currently being guided by?" we currently being guided by?" An excerpt from the man you are meant to An excerpt from the man you are meant to An excerpt from the man you are meant to be. be. be. There's a lot of talk lately about men There's a lot of talk lately about men There's a lot of talk lately about men and manhood. and manhood. and manhood. The rise of the so-called manosphere is The rise of the so-called manosphere is The rise of the so-called manosphere is a major factor in this, right? As we've a major factor in this, right? As we've a major factor in this, right? As we've as we've talked about before, social as we've talked about before, social as we've talked about before, social media and media and media and podcasts and other forms of media podcasts and other forms of media podcasts and other forms of media can be very specific as ecosystems and can be very specific as ecosystems and can be very specific as ecosystems and it's very easy. It's it's probably it's very easy. It's it's probably it's very easy. It's it's probably easier more than ever to be fed almost easier more than ever to be fed almost easier more than ever to be fed almost exclusively however you want to.

exclusively however you want to. exclusively however you want to. I kind of was thinking about this like I kind of was thinking about this like I kind of was thinking about this like like going to Cheesecake Factory, right? like going to Cheesecake Factory, right? like going to Cheesecake Factory, right? You get to Cheesecake Factory and they You get to Cheesecake Factory and they You get to Cheesecake Factory and they give you this tome of options that they give you this tome of options that they give you this tome of options that they make at the Cheesecake Factory. You can make at the Cheesecake Factory. You can make at the Cheesecake Factory. You can choose almost like anything uh that you choose almost like anything uh that you choose almost like anything uh that you could possibly want or you can keep could possibly want or you can keep could possibly want or you can keep choosing the same thing repeatedly. choosing the same thing repeatedly. choosing the same thing repeatedly. Right now, that's not necessarily a bad Right now, that's not necessarily a bad Right now, that's not necessarily a bad thing to keep getting, you know, the thing to keep getting, you know, the thing to keep getting, you know, the same dish or the same type of dish over same dish or the same type of dish over same dish or the same type of dish over and over again every day if you go to and over again every day if you go to and over again every day if you go to Cheesecake Factory every day. Cheesecake Factory every day. Cheesecake Factory every day. But it also can mean that you're only But it also can mean that you're only But it also can mean that you're only being fed by one source and that cannon being fed by one source and that cannon being fed by one source and that cannon will begin to shape you. Now I'm will begin to shape you. Now I'm will begin to shape you. Now I'm starting to step away from the starting to step away from the starting to step away from the Cheesecake Factory metaphor, if you Cheesecake Factory metaphor, if you Cheesecake Factory metaphor, if you will, right? What you intake, what you will, right? What you intake, what you will, right? What you intake, what you watch or listen to, it can and will watch or listen to, it can and will watch or listen to, it can and will shape your world view. It'll shape your shape your world view. It'll shape your shape your world view. It'll shape your attachments. It'll shape your identity. attachments. It'll shape your identity. attachments. It'll shape your identity. And this is a part of the manhood And this is a part of the manhood And this is a part of the manhood conversation, right? This is a big part conversation, right? This is a big part conversation, right? This is a big part of that. and it's a major part of the of that. and it's a major part of the of that. and it's a major part of the new book, The Man You're Meant to Be by new book, The Man You're Meant to Be by new book, The Man You're Meant to Be by my friend John Simons. John was a pastor my friend John Simons. John was a pastor my friend John Simons. John was a pastor here at Saddleback working with men and here at Saddleback working with men and here at Saddleback working with men and is currently the men's pastor at Rolling is currently the men's pastor at Rolling is currently the men's pastor at Rolling Hills Church in Franklin, Tennessee. In Hills Church in Franklin, Tennessee. In Hills Church in Franklin, Tennessee. In this conversation, John and I talk about this conversation, John and I talk about this conversation, John and I talk about how how how the loneliness epidemic is affecting the loneliness epidemic is affecting the loneliness epidemic is affecting men. We talk about the inside or the

men. We talk about the inside or the men. We talk about the inside or the impact of outside impact of outside impact of outside voices and we talk a lot about the voices and we talk a lot about the voices and we talk a lot about the manosphere idea. We talk about wisdom manosphere idea. We talk about wisdom manosphere idea. We talk about wisdom from above versus wisdom from below and from above versus wisdom from below and from above versus wisdom from below and we talk about much more. My name is we talk about much more. My name is we talk about much more. My name is Jason Wheelen and this is a dual Jason Wheelen and this is a dual Jason Wheelen and this is a dual disciplehip. Now, my conversation with disciplehip. Now, my conversation with disciplehip. Now, my conversation with John Simons. [Music] [Music] >> All right, John Simons, buddy. How you >> All right, John Simons, buddy. How you >> All right, John Simons, buddy. How you doing? doing? doing? >> I'm doing good, Jason. It's been a It's >> I'm doing good, Jason. It's been a It's >> I'm doing good, Jason. It's been a It's been a while, brother. But I thank you been a while, brother. But I thank you been a while, brother. But I thank you for having me on. You know how much I for having me on. You know how much I for having me on. You know how much I appreciate you. It's just good to even appreciate you. It's just good to even appreciate you. It's just good to even hear your voice again. John, when you hear your voice again. John, when you hear your voice again. John, when you entered into the Zoom chat and I could entered into the Zoom chat and I could entered into the Zoom chat and I could see your face, it definitely brought me see your face, it definitely brought me see your face, it definitely brought me back. Fun hallway conversations, lots of back. Fun hallway conversations, lots of back. Fun hallway conversations, lots of good times. And so I'm I'm I'm so good times. And so I'm I'm I'm so good times. And so I'm I'm I'm so excited to be able to talk to you in excited to be able to talk to you in excited to be able to talk to you in this context this context this context and talk about your your new book, The and talk about your your new book, The and talk about your your new book, The Man You're Meant to Be and everything.

Man You're Meant to Be and everything. Man You're Meant to Be and everything. So, uh I'm just uh I'm thrilled for this So, uh I'm just uh I'm thrilled for this So, uh I'm just uh I'm thrilled for this and I hope that the joy just, you know, and I hope that the joy just, you know, and I hope that the joy just, you know, is very clear and evident uh for the is very clear and evident uh for the is very clear and evident uh for the people listening. So, yeah, it's going people listening. So, yeah, it's going people listening. So, yeah, it's going to be fun. to be fun. to be fun. >> Likewise, buddy. Congratulations on I >> Likewise, buddy. Congratulations on I >> Likewise, buddy. Congratulations on I don't know what episode this is now. don't know what episode this is now. don't know what episode this is now. >> 440 >> 440 >> 440 something, but it'll be on the on the something, but it'll be on the on the something, but it'll be on the on the thumbnail. So, there you go. thumbnail. So, there you go. thumbnail. So, there you go. >> I still remember number one. There you >> I still remember number one. There you >> I still remember number one. There you go. go. go. >> I know. It feels like so long ago. Okay. >> I know. It feels like so long ago. Okay. >> I know. It feels like so long ago. Okay. So, your new book uh comes out next So, your new book uh comes out next So, your new book uh comes out next week, The Man You're Meant to Be. So, week, The Man You're Meant to Be. So, week, The Man You're Meant to Be. So, encourage everybody to go on and encourage everybody to go on and encourage everybody to go on and pre-order it. You know, do it now in in pre-order it. You know, do it now in in pre-order it. You know, do it now in in faith that this episode is going to be faith that this episode is going to be faith that this episode is going to be great. Uh but and then the book comes great. Uh but and then the book comes great. Uh but and then the book comes out next week. So I want to start by out next week. So I want to start by out next week. So I want to start by kind of talking about the the problem. kind of talking about the the problem. kind of talking about the the problem. What are we identifying here that we are What are we identifying here that we are What are we identifying here that we are trying to speak to through this book? So trying to speak to through this book? So trying to speak to through this book? So So I I'll frame it this way. What So I I'll frame it this way. What So I I'll frame it this way. What problems are you currently seeing problems are you currently seeing problems are you currently seeing amongst men that you are looking to kind amongst men that you are looking to kind amongst men that you are looking to kind of make note of and call out through the of make note of and call out through the of make note of and call out through the man you're meant to be? man you're meant to be? man you're meant to be? >> Yeah, Jason. And and here's the thing.

>> Yeah, Jason. And and here's the thing. >> Yeah, Jason. And and here's the thing. it it's a little bit complex in the it it's a little bit complex in the it it's a little bit complex in the sense that the landscape of the problem sense that the landscape of the problem sense that the landscape of the problem is it's really problems and multiple is it's really problems and multiple is it's really problems and multiple layers to the whatever part you're layers to the whatever part you're layers to the whatever part you're taking on. So, um I mean we can we can taking on. So, um I mean we can we can taking on. So, um I mean we can we can kind of there's a one of the obviously kind of there's a one of the obviously kind of there's a one of the obviously the broadest stroke problem for men the broadest stroke problem for men the broadest stroke problem for men right now is still that loneliness right now is still that loneliness right now is still that loneliness epidemic. epidemic. epidemic. >> Um and so many men are struggling to >> Um and so many men are struggling to >> Um and so many men are struggling to cope with life's difficulties. Um, and cope with life's difficulties. Um, and cope with life's difficulties. Um, and at the same time they're they're either at the same time they're they're either at the same time they're they're either living in silent shame, secret shame in living in silent shame, secret shame in living in silent shame, secret shame in their in their life. Um, they're growing their in their life. Um, they're growing their in their life. Um, they're growing numbummer because they're they're not numbummer because they're they're not numbummer because they're they're not reawakening their senses to to reawakening their senses to to reawakening their senses to to friendship, to to biblical community. friendship, to to biblical community. friendship, to to biblical community. And so obviously coming out of the And so obviously coming out of the And so obviously coming out of the pandemic, everyone experienced the pandemic, everyone experienced the pandemic, everyone experienced the loneliness epidemic. But I think putting loneliness epidemic. But I think putting loneliness epidemic. But I think putting language to it for men, it was more language to it for men, it was more language to it for men, it was more like, oh wait, I've been feeling this like, oh wait, I've been feeling this like, oh wait, I've been feeling this way for a long time. way for a long time. way for a long time. >> Yeah. And so the book speaks it's I >> Yeah. And so the book speaks it's I >> Yeah. And so the book speaks it's I should say this it the book is should say this it the book is should say this it the book is contextualized assuming that most people contextualized assuming that most people contextualized assuming that most people most men are struggling with this most men are struggling with this most men are struggling with this already and there's obviously steps you already and there's obviously steps you already and there's obviously steps you can take to to to move forward in health can take to to to move forward in health can take to to to move forward in health and that but that's not the entirety and and that but that's not the entirety and and that but that's not the entirety and and I and I don't want to act like just and I and I don't want to act like just and I and I don't want to act like just getting connected in community is a sol getting connected in community is a sol getting connected in community is a sol is is how to solve it for men. It's not is is how to solve it for men. It's not is is how to solve it for men. It's not there's once you're in community that's there's once you're in community that's there's once you're in community that's a whole different set a host of problems a whole different set a host of problems a whole different set a host of problems right um so there's there's a fear of right um so there's there's a fear of right um so there's there's a fear of being honest with with someone now being honest with with someone now being honest with with someone now especially we lack a lot of the skill especially we lack a lot of the skill especially we lack a lot of the skill set the the the the craft of friendship

set the the the the craft of friendship set the the the the craft of friendship in our modern day and so there's fear of in our modern day and so there's fear of in our modern day and so there's fear of rejection there's fear of embarrassment rejection there's fear of embarrassment rejection there's fear of embarrassment the I mean there's a belief that man if the I mean there's a belief that man if the I mean there's a belief that man if I say something weird or if I say I say something weird or if I say I say something weird or if I say something that like I I I exposed myself something that like I I I exposed myself something that like I I I exposed myself in a way of like here's what I'm in a way of like here's what I'm in a way of like here's what I'm struggling with that they'll I'll be struggling with that they'll I'll be struggling with that they'll I'll be rejected and maybe they won't call me rejected and maybe they won't call me rejected and maybe they won't call me back. And it's almost like dating, back. And it's almost like dating, back. And it's almost like dating, right? Like you have friendship. Um and right? Like you have friendship. Um and right? Like you have friendship. Um and and so you just pick an issue though. and so you just pick an issue though. and so you just pick an issue though. And many times in the set within this And many times in the set within this And many times in the set within this loneliness epidemic to even take a step loneliness epidemic to even take a step loneliness epidemic to even take a step further, vulnerability of I'm struggling further, vulnerability of I'm struggling further, vulnerability of I'm struggling with pornography. I'm struggling with my with pornography. I'm struggling with my with pornography. I'm struggling with my drinking. Something like that. That's an drinking. Something like that. That's an drinking. Something like that. That's an extra barrier that we're seeing. And so extra barrier that we're seeing. And so extra barrier that we're seeing. And so there's a level of just not loneliness, there's a level of just not loneliness, there's a level of just not loneliness, but that that am I willing to be but that that am I willing to be but that that am I willing to be vulnerable with someone. And so that's a vulnerable with someone. And so that's a vulnerable with someone. And so that's a whole that's one element of the whole that's one element of the whole that's one element of the relational side. But then when you think relational side. But then when you think relational side. But then when you think culturally at this point, too. Uh I culturally at this point, too. Uh I culturally at this point, too. Uh I mean, we it's there's more numbers than mean, we it's there's more numbers than mean, we it's there's more numbers than ever coming out. great data that say ever coming out. great data that say ever coming out. great data that say young men are coming back to the church young men are coming back to the church young men are coming back to the church which I mean I'm sure you guys I I think which I mean I'm sure you guys I I think which I mean I'm sure you guys I I think I was seeing it there at the start um I was seeing it there at the start um I was seeing it there at the start um you know a few years ago at Saddleach you know a few years ago at Saddleach you know a few years ago at Saddleach and I think it's just continued across and I think it's just continued across and I think it's just continued across the nation even being here in Nashville the nation even being here in Nashville the nation even being here in Nashville we're seeing young men are coming back we're seeing young men are coming back we're seeing young men are coming back in especially in their 20s 30s 40s uh in especially in their 20s 30s 40s uh in especially in their 20s 30s 40s uh early 40s but here's the thing with that early 40s but here's the thing with that early 40s but here's the thing with that and while it's a good problem that's not and while it's a good problem that's not and while it's a good problem that's not to get too excited and overcompensate to get too excited and overcompensate to get too excited and overcompensate the fact that most men are still not the fact that most men are still not the fact that most men are still not coming into the church.

coming into the church. coming into the church. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, h how do we how do we navigate the >> So, h how do we how do we navigate the >> So, h how do we how do we navigate the fact of Yeah. We have more young men fact of Yeah. We have more young men fact of Yeah. We have more young men coming to the church than ever? And in coming to the church than ever? And in coming to the church than ever? And in reality, what their needs are is reality, what their needs are is reality, what their needs are is something maybe the church hasn't something maybe the church hasn't something maybe the church hasn't offered in a long time. And that's offered in a long time. And that's offered in a long time. And that's making space for reawakening for men of making space for reawakening for men of making space for reawakening for men of how do we offer them spiritual and how do we offer them spiritual and how do we offer them spiritual and biblical community and mentorship? How biblical community and mentorship? How biblical community and mentorship? How do we how do we move towards a uh you do we how do we move towards a uh you do we how do we move towards a uh you know go going towards a a system or a know go going towards a a system or a know go going towards a a system or a program where we're investing in pouring program where we're investing in pouring program where we're investing in pouring into men relationally, spiritually, into men relationally, spiritually, into men relationally, spiritually, emotionally. I mean developing them as a emotionally. I mean developing them as a emotionally. I mean developing them as a whole human person. whole human person. whole human person. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's its own I mean the church >> And that's its own I mean the church >> And that's its own I mean the church meeting men in a different way than just meeting men in a different way than just meeting men in a different way than just a barbecue or a monthly, you know, a barbecue or a monthly, you know, a barbecue or a monthly, you know, monthly breakfast. Uh I mean who loves monthly breakfast. Uh I mean who loves monthly breakfast. Uh I mean who loves change in the church, right? change in the church, right? change in the church, right? I think it's so I've been wa No, you may I think it's so I've been wa No, you may I think it's so I've been wa No, you may laugh and that's totally fair. Yeah, laugh and that's totally fair. Yeah, laugh and that's totally fair. Yeah, >> I've been watching um Home Improvement >> I've been watching um Home Improvement >> I've been watching um Home Improvement >> again. >> again. >> again. >> It's back.

>> It's back. >> It's back. >> It's on Netflix, right? It's whatever. >> It's on Netflix, right? It's whatever. >> It's on Netflix, right? It's whatever. So, and a friend of mine said that they So, and a friend of mine said that they So, and a friend of mine said that they just rewatched it and I was like, I I just rewatched it and I was like, I I just rewatched it and I was like, I I like Home. So, I've I've I've been like Home. So, I've I've I've been like Home. So, I've I've I've been watching it through. And so, you get watching it through. And so, you get watching it through. And so, you get this picture of like the '9s men, right? this picture of like the '9s men, right? this picture of like the '9s men, right? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> And it is interesting to see what is >> And it is interesting to see what is >> And it is interesting to see what is changed and what is the same, right? I changed and what is the same, right? I changed and what is the same, right? I think what's what's changed a little bit think what's what's changed a little bit think what's what's changed a little bit is is like you were talking about with is is like you were talking about with is is like you were talking about with the communities, right? Back then, men the communities, right? Back then, men the communities, right? Back then, men had, you know, had their softball had, you know, had their softball had, you know, had their softball leagues, their bowling leagues that, you leagues, their bowling leagues that, you leagues, their bowling leagues that, you know, they know, they know, they basketball leagues, whatever. they would basketball leagues, whatever. they would basketball leagues, whatever. they would go and and meet at the store and just go and and meet at the store and just go and and meet at the store and just kind of hang out at the hardware store kind of hang out at the hardware store kind of hang out at the hardware store in this case for home improvement or in this case for home improvement or in this case for home improvement or whatever, you know, and they're just whatever, you know, and they're just whatever, you know, and they're just like hanging out. And again, it's not like hanging out. And again, it's not like hanging out. And again, it's not like they're being vulnerable. Anytime a like they're being vulnerable. Anytime a like they're being vulnerable. Anytime a vulnerable topic comes up, you know, vulnerable topic comes up, you know, vulnerable topic comes up, you know, they, you know, you get all awkward or they, you know, you get all awkward or they, you know, you get all awkward or like, why are we talking about that? You like, why are we talking about that? You like, why are we talking about that? You know, that kind of thing. But at least know, that kind of thing. But at least know, that kind of thing. But at least you had the community element. Mhm.

you had the community element. Mhm. you had the community element. Mhm. >> What seems to have changed is those >> What seems to have changed is those >> What seems to have changed is those communities, you know, those those out communities, you know, those those out communities, you know, those those out of, you know, those extracurricular of, you know, those extracurricular of, you know, those extracurricular communities don't exist as much anymore. communities don't exist as much anymore. communities don't exist as much anymore. At least from at least from what I can At least from at least from what I can At least from at least from what I can see and and you're more in it than me. see and and you're more in it than me. see and and you're more in it than me. But to me, it seems like that type of But to me, it seems like that type of But to me, it seems like that type of bonding time doesn't fully exist bonding time doesn't fully exist bonding time doesn't fully exist anymore. And yet men are still not anymore. And yet men are still not anymore. And yet men are still not vulnerable, you know? So it's so we vulnerable, you know? So it's so we vulnerable, you know? So it's so we we've taken away the community but we we've taken away the community but we we've taken away the community but we haven't changed the vulner vulnerability haven't changed the vulner vulnerability haven't changed the vulner vulnerability enough. Now there is a lot there's more enough. Now there is a lot there's more enough. Now there is a lot there's more openness I think now to vulnerability. openness I think now to vulnerability. openness I think now to vulnerability. The idea of going to see a counselor or The idea of going to see a counselor or The idea of going to see a counselor or whatever is not as taboo as it used to whatever is not as taboo as it used to whatever is not as taboo as it used to be. be. be. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> Um which is great. We're making you know >> Um which is great. We're making you know >> Um which is great. We're making you know steps this way or or whatnot which is steps this way or or whatnot which is steps this way or or whatnot which is which is great. But at the same time which is great. But at the same time which is great. But at the same time it's still you know it's at that point it's still you know it's at that point it's still you know it's at that point you are doing those things but you don't you are doing those things but you don't you are doing those things but you don't have anybody else to talk about it with have anybody else to talk about it with have anybody else to talk about it with your friend group as much to talk about your friend group as much to talk about your friend group as much to talk about it with and Jason that's what I was just it with and Jason that's what I was just it with and Jason that's what I was just going to say you know it's so going to say you know it's so going to say you know it's so interesting that as counseling is more interesting that as counseling is more interesting that as counseling is more and more popular and and in many and more popular and and in many and more popular and and in many circumstances we I find that uh a circumstances we I find that uh a circumstances we I find that uh a counselor is is needed and helpful for counselor is is needed and helpful for counselor is is needed and helpful for especially for a lot of the men I find especially for a lot of the men I find especially for a lot of the men I find in crisis um that devote having a in crisis um that devote having a in crisis um that devote having a professional devote an hour to just professional devote an hour to just professional devote an hour to just talking through things is so helpful.

talking through things is so helpful. talking through things is so helpful. However, that being said, that However, that being said, that However, that being said, that counselor, they're they're not your counselor, they're they're not your counselor, they're they're not your friend that you're going to be sitting friend that you're going to be sitting friend that you're going to be sitting around the, you know, for a fireside around the, you know, for a fireside around the, you know, for a fireside chat with. You know, it's funny like we chat with. You know, it's funny like we chat with. You know, it's funny like we I it's you bring up uh home improvement. I it's you bring up uh home improvement. I it's you bring up uh home improvement. Uh I I've got this thing here in like Uh I I've got this thing here in like Uh I I've got this thing here in like Nashville. It's like, you know, bring Nashville. It's like, you know, bring Nashville. It's like, you know, bring back fireside chats. Bring it back, you back fireside chats. Bring it back, you back fireside chats. Bring it back, you know, uh outside. Have your friends know, uh outside. Have your friends know, uh outside. Have your friends over. like we we do it quite a bit here over. like we we do it quite a bit here over. like we we do it quite a bit here and uh this is something I didn't and uh this is something I didn't and uh this is something I didn't practice back in Orange County, but of practice back in Orange County, but of practice back in Orange County, but of having guys over six to seven guys on a having guys over six to seven guys on a having guys over six to seven guys on a Wednesday night, a Friday night, Wednesday night, a Friday night, Wednesday night, a Friday night, >> and just starting the fire and checking >> and just starting the fire and checking >> and just starting the fire and checking in on each other. in on each other. in on each other. >> And here's the thing. Here's and as >> And here's the thing. Here's and as >> And here's the thing. Here's and as we're talking about the problems, here's we're talking about the problems, here's we're talking about the problems, here's one of them though that exists to get one of them though that exists to get one of them though that exists to get there is a busyness. Mh. there is a busyness. Mh. there is a busyness. Mh. >> And so as a family, you know, uh, for >> And so as a family, you know, uh, for >> And so as a family, you know, uh, for for the listeners here, just so you for the listeners here, just so you for the listeners here, just so you know, contextually, uh, I'm at a church know, contextually, uh, I'm at a church know, contextually, uh, I'm at a church in Franklin, Tennessee, Rolling Hills in Franklin, Tennessee, Rolling Hills in Franklin, Tennessee, Rolling Hills Church, that we're predominantly 30s and Church, that we're predominantly 30s and Church, that we're predominantly 30s and 40s, younger families. We have some 40s, younger families. We have some 40s, younger families. We have some empty nesters, but, you know, it's it's empty nesters, but, you know, it's it's empty nesters, but, you know, it's it's a very young church.

a very young church. a very young church. >> And so I and I know Saddleback is is >> And so I and I know Saddleback is is >> And so I and I know Saddleback is is leaning younger now, too. to get young leaning younger now, too. to get young leaning younger now, too. to get young families to stop and actually take in families to stop and actually take in families to stop and actually take in and say we're going to pour in and say we're going to pour in and say we're going to pour in relationally and that that is that's relationally and that that is that's relationally and that that is that's more of a priority than our kids sports more of a priority than our kids sports more of a priority than our kids sports right now. I that's one of the that is right now. I that's one of the that is right now. I that's one of the that is one of the ongoing tensions uh that we one of the ongoing tensions uh that we one of the ongoing tensions uh that we that we can come back to. Um but that that we can come back to. Um but that that we can come back to. Um but that you're right it's how do we bring back you're right it's how do we bring back you're right it's how do we bring back you you talk about the '9s uh how do we you you talk about the '9s uh how do we you you talk about the '9s uh how do we go without our phones for a few weeks go without our phones for a few weeks go without our phones for a few weeks you know or even just a few hours. you know or even just a few hours. you know or even just a few hours. >> Yeah. I mean, even, you know, the whole >> Yeah. I mean, even, you know, the whole >> Yeah. I mean, even, you know, the whole idea of the streaming culture has idea of the streaming culture has idea of the streaming culture has changed. I, you know, is you think back changed. I, you know, is you think back changed. I, you know, is you think back to the '9s, right? And you would, you to the '9s, right? And you would, you to the '9s, right? And you would, you would only be able to watch what was would only be able to watch what was would only be able to watch what was literally on TV or have to go and put in literally on TV or have to go and put in literally on TV or have to go and put in a movie or whatever. Whereas now, it's a movie or whatever. Whereas now, it's a movie or whatever. Whereas now, it's so easy. I could just literally watch so easy. I could just literally watch so easy. I could just literally watch whatever I want. So, it's easier to make whatever I want. So, it's easier to make whatever I want. So, it's easier to make it to, you know, stay home rather than, it to, you know, stay home rather than, it to, you know, stay home rather than, you know, to you know, to you know, to >> feel like h I got to go out. I told the >> feel like h I got to go out. I told the >> feel like h I got to go out. I told the guys I got to, you know, got to drive guys I got to, you know, got to drive guys I got to, you know, got to drive there. Got to drive, you know, whatever there. Got to drive, you know, whatever there. Got to drive, you know, whatever it is. It's just a different thing. So, it is. It's just a different thing. So, it is. It's just a different thing. So, but okay. So, so we have these problems but okay. So, so we have these problems but okay. So, so we have these problems that we've identified the loneliness that we've identified the loneliness that we've identified the loneliness epidemic stuff which is a which is you epidemic stuff which is a which is you epidemic stuff which is a which is you know a part of know a part of know a part of >> of where culture is but also our choices >> of where culture is but also our choices >> of where culture is but also our choices that we make along with what what we that we make along with what what we that we make along with what what we were talking about with the were talking about with the were talking about with the vulnerability. It's always been a vulnerability. It's always been a vulnerability. It's always been a problem for men to feel like we can be problem for men to feel like we can be problem for men to feel like we can be open and talking about the issues of our open and talking about the issues of our open and talking about the issues of our lives. Um lives. Um lives. Um >> you also Okay. So in your book you >> you also Okay. So in your book you >> you also Okay. So in your book you address these problems address these problems address these problems or I should say you identify these or I should say you identify these or I should say you identify these problems but you also identify that

problems but you also identify that problems but you also identify that there's this need for biblical wisdom there's this need for biblical wisdom there's this need for biblical wisdom and self-examination and you laid this and self-examination and you laid this and self-examination and you laid this out really well early on in the book. So out really well early on in the book. So out really well early on in the book. So it's it sets it up saying like hey this it's it sets it up saying like hey this it's it sets it up saying like hey this is this is kind of how we're going to is this is kind of how we're going to is this is kind of how we're going to handle this is we're going to talk about handle this is we're going to talk about handle this is we're going to talk about things with biblical wisdom and things with biblical wisdom and things with biblical wisdom and self-examination as ways to talk about self-examination as ways to talk about self-examination as ways to talk about uh you know the man you're meant to be uh you know the man you're meant to be uh you know the man you're meant to be for lack of a better word. He did a for lack of a better word. He did a for lack of a better word. He did a great job with the titling of the book. great job with the titling of the book. great job with the titling of the book. So, let's So, let's So, let's >> It's pretty nail. Yeah, it's pretty >> It's pretty nail. Yeah, it's pretty >> It's pretty nail. Yeah, it's pretty right on. right on. right on. >> Kind of hits it right there. Um, so >> Kind of hits it right there. Um, so >> Kind of hits it right there. Um, so let's talk about this idea of let's talk about this idea of let's talk about this idea of self-examination self-examination self-examination and how men in particular should think and how men in particular should think and how men in particular should think about this. about this. about this. >> Yeah. And maybe this is can >> Yeah. And maybe this is can >> Yeah. And maybe this is can contextualize a little bit with one contextualize a little bit with one contextualize a little bit with one other additional problem is um and by other additional problem is um and by other additional problem is um and by problem I actually mean this probably in problem I actually mean this probably in problem I actually mean this probably in a softer sense. Um but so many men are a softer sense. Um but so many men are a softer sense. Um but so many men are no longer looking for their formation in no longer looking for their formation in no longer looking for their formation in the church. the church. the church. >> And so you know chapter 2 I devote to >> And so you know chapter 2 I devote to >> And so you know chapter 2 I devote to the outsiders that more men are looking the outsiders that more men are looking the outsiders that more men are looking at these outsiders and I name them. I at these outsiders and I name them. I at these outsiders and I name them. I mean I say you know Jordan B. Peterson mean I say you know Jordan B. Peterson mean I say you know Jordan B. Peterson uh Joo uh if you and sorry if you don't uh Joo uh if you and sorry if you don't uh Joo uh if you and sorry if you don't know these these people uh but you know know these these people uh but you know know these these people uh but you know you you look at uh Ryan Holiday the you you you look at uh Ryan Holiday the you you you look at uh Ryan Holiday the you know um stoic popular uh philos he does know um stoic popular uh philos he does know um stoic popular uh philos he does he kind of brings popular popularizes he kind of brings popular popularizes he kind of brings popular popularizes stoic philosophy um you know Joe Rogan stoic philosophy um you know Joe Rogan stoic philosophy um you know Joe Rogan like I said uh the conversations these like I said uh the conversations these like I said uh the conversations these men are having it is wild the amount of men are having it is wild the amount of men are having it is wild the amount of men that are listening to it and I don't men that are listening to it and I don't men that are listening to it and I don't necessarily I mean I say this in the necessarily I mean I say this in the necessarily I mean I say this in the book they it's not necessarily a a bad

book they it's not necessarily a a bad book they it's not necessarily a a bad thing because what it's doing is stoking thing because what it's doing is stoking thing because what it's doing is stoking a conversation on how do we actually a conversation on how do we actually a conversation on how do we actually define masculinity, manhood? What is the define masculinity, manhood? What is the define masculinity, manhood? What is the the tell us? What's the goal of manhood? the tell us? What's the goal of manhood? the tell us? What's the goal of manhood? And in some ways as the church, how do And in some ways as the church, how do And in some ways as the church, how do we tap into that and say, "Hey, we love we tap into that and say, "Hey, we love we tap into that and say, "Hey, we love the fact that these guys are actually the fact that these guys are actually the fact that these guys are actually being pretty vulnerable with where being pretty vulnerable with where being pretty vulnerable with where they're really at." uh often oftentimes they're really at." uh often oftentimes they're really at." uh often oftentimes with humorous conversations, with humorous conversations, with humorous conversations, inappropriate language in there, you inappropriate language in there, you inappropriate language in there, you know, but um but what it's done and why know, but um but what it's done and why know, but um but what it's done and why I situated the book in that context was I situated the book in that context was I situated the book in that context was because I I mean I I point back to James because I I mean I I point back to James because I I mean I I point back to James and that there's a wisdom from below and and that there's a wisdom from below and and that there's a wisdom from below and a wisdom from above and what we're being a wisdom from above and what we're being a wisdom from above and what we're being shaped and formed by truly matters. And shaped and formed by truly matters. And shaped and formed by truly matters. And so when we talk about self-examination, so when we talk about self-examination, so when we talk about self-examination, I I'm overlapping it with those ideas of I I'm overlapping it with those ideas of I I'm overlapping it with those ideas of wisdom from below, wisdom uh from above wisdom from below, wisdom uh from above wisdom from below, wisdom uh from above in the and crossing that with when Jesus in the and crossing that with when Jesus in the and crossing that with when Jesus throughout the gospels, I I want throughout the gospels, I I want throughout the gospels, I I want throughout the the central theme throughout the the central theme throughout the the central theme throughout this work is that as we look throughout this work is that as we look throughout this work is that as we look at the biblical story in the setting of at the biblical story in the setting of at the biblical story in the setting of the gospels, Jesus is frequently pushing the gospels, Jesus is frequently pushing the gospels, Jesus is frequently pushing us toward this this self-examination of us toward this this self-examination of us toward this this self-examination of what do we really desire? what where is what do we really desire? what where is what do we really desire? what where is our heart's contentness leaning us our heart's contentness leaning us our heart's contentness leaning us towards um you know in in James K Smith towards um you know in in James K Smith towards um you know in in James K Smith language it's it's uh what we ultimately language it's it's uh what we ultimately language it's it's uh what we ultimately desire is what we're going to be desire is what we're going to be desire is what we're going to be worshiping you know what we worship is worshiping you know what we worship is worshiping you know what we worship is uh very important and that's what Jesus uh very important and that's what Jesus uh very important and that's what Jesus is constantly bring us back to um in is constantly bring us back to um in is constantly bring us back to um in many of the exchanges with the Pharisees many of the exchanges with the Pharisees many of the exchanges with the Pharisees the scribes um but even in his teachings

the scribes um but even in his teachings the scribes um but even in his teachings and so that idea runs throughout it and and so that idea runs throughout it and and so that idea runs throughout it and I and I do it topically and so um you I and I do it topically and so um you I and I do it topically and so um you know the as you referring to Jason in know the as you referring to Jason in know the as you referring to Jason in the first few chapters what the first few chapters what the first few chapters what self-examination looks like um is taking self-examination looks like um is taking self-examination looks like um is taking you through some prayer projects or you through some prayer projects or you through some prayer projects or prayer prompings of my identity of where prayer prompings of my identity of where prayer prompings of my identity of where where are my greatest sense of longings where are my greatest sense of longings where are my greatest sense of longings and fulfillments where do I put my and fulfillments where do I put my and fulfillments where do I put my confidence and trust um you know not to confidence and trust um you know not to confidence and trust um you know not to give away all all of it but that's the give away all all of it but that's the give away all all of it but that's the we're working through some solid some we're working through some solid some we're working through some solid some solid prompings that my goal in this is solid prompings that my goal in this is solid prompings that my goal in this is not to come off as though I've got not to come off as though I've got not to come off as though I've got everything figured out. In fact, it's everything figured out. In fact, it's everything figured out. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite. A lot of this pretty much the opposite. A lot of this pretty much the opposite. A lot of this book is a conviction that I felt God book is a conviction that I felt God book is a conviction that I felt God asking me to write out of that asking me to write out of that asking me to write out of that conviction of I of him working in my conviction of I of him working in my conviction of I of him working in my heart. heart. heart. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so that's why a each chapter is >> And so that's why a each chapter is >> And so that's why a each chapter is really framed with us going on that really framed with us going on that really framed with us going on that journey together and then ending with journey together and then ending with journey together and then ending with questions of self-examination. every questions of self-examination. every questions of self-examination. every chapter uh for readers who are looking chapter uh for readers who are looking chapter uh for readers who are looking at this book, they there's they're at this book, they there's they're at this book, they there's they're closing with yeah, it's discussion closing with yeah, it's discussion closing with yeah, it's discussion questions, but it's really it's a questions, but it's really it's a questions, but it's really it's a combination of exam self-examination combination of exam self-examination combination of exam self-examination questions before God with prayer questions before God with prayer questions before God with prayer prompts. Um and that's a sweet spot that prompts. Um and that's a sweet spot that prompts. Um and that's a sweet spot that I've found that I think is really I've found that I think is really I've found that I think is really helpful for men. Uh but also what's helpful for men. Uh but also what's helpful for men. Uh but also what's funny is we have, you know, some women funny is we have, you know, some women funny is we have, you know, some women well-known uh women authors who have well-known uh women authors who have well-known uh women authors who have been like this is fantastic idea. So been like this is fantastic idea. So been like this is fantastic idea. So >> it's funny. Well, I think he I think >> it's funny. Well, I think he I think >> it's funny. Well, I think he I think it's helpful it's helpful it's helpful to keep in mind that this, you know, I

to keep in mind that this, you know, I to keep in mind that this, you know, I think the term they call it now, right, think the term they call it now, right, think the term they call it now, right, the manosphere, right? All those all the manosphere, right? All those all the manosphere, right? All those all those podcasts or whatever who, you those podcasts or whatever who, you those podcasts or whatever who, you know, you that are that feature a lot of know, you that are that feature a lot of know, you that are that feature a lot of the guys who you mentioned, the guys who you mentioned, the guys who you mentioned, >> like >> like >> like >> that's that's a real thing. That is a >> that's that's a real thing. That is a >> that's that's a real thing. That is a reality. And there's millions and reality. And there's millions and reality. And there's millions and millions of young men, particularly millions of young men, particularly millions of young men, particularly young men. Yeah. young men. Yeah. young men. Yeah. >> Older men too, but but especially heavy >> Older men too, but but especially heavy >> Older men too, but but especially heavy in that young men demographic who go to in that young men demographic who go to in that young men demographic who go to that well regularly. that well regularly. that well regularly. So it would be wise for anybody in So it would be wise for anybody in So it would be wise for anybody in church leadership, specifically men's church leadership, specifically men's church leadership, specifically men's pastors, but also like pastors, but also like pastors, but also like >> also like >> also like >> also like parents, parents, parents, >> wives, whatever to be aware of just, >> wives, whatever to be aware of just, >> wives, whatever to be aware of just, hey, like hey, like hey, like these are the things that these guys these are the things that these guys these are the things that these guys talk about that are prevalent in these talk about that are prevalent in these talk about that are prevalent in these podcasts or or whatever. podcasts or or whatever. podcasts or or whatever. >> And as you said, there is wisdom from >> And as you said, there is wisdom from >> And as you said, there is wisdom from above and there's wisdom from from above and there's wisdom from from above and there's wisdom from from below. So it's like almost like okay below. So it's like almost like okay below. So it's like almost like okay what like there's conversation points as what like there's conversation points as what like there's conversation points as you said that get raised which is great you said that get raised which is great you said that get raised which is great >> but knowing then how to approach them >> but knowing then how to approach them >> but knowing then how to approach them from a biblical perspective how to keep from a biblical perspective how to keep from a biblical perspective how to keep a proper a proper a proper >> world view >> world view >> world view >> amidst what is you know this this this >> amidst what is you know this this this >> amidst what is you know this this this call to masculinity or whatever that call to masculinity or whatever that call to masculinity or whatever that that's coming out of this environment that's coming out of this environment that's coming out of this environment but also make sure it's layered with a but also make sure it's layered with a but also make sure it's layered with a biblical worldview or that you have a biblical worldview or that you have a biblical worldview or that you have a lens that you are are seeing it through lens that you are are seeing it through lens that you are are seeing it through because otherwise you're just going to

because otherwise you're just going to because otherwise you're just going to the feet of these people who may or may the feet of these people who may or may the feet of these people who may or may not be Christ followers and but and and not be Christ followers and but and and not be Christ followers and but and and so you don't want your gospel to change so you don't want your gospel to change so you don't want your gospel to change a little bit. So it's just it's a little bit. So it's just it's a little bit. So it's just it's awareness in this I think is really awareness in this I think is really awareness in this I think is really important important important >> and that's what you know our formation >> and that's what you know our formation >> and that's what you know our formation is something our spiritual formation you is something our spiritual formation you is something our spiritual formation you know it's not something that we always know it's not something that we always know it's not something that we always think we oh you know I'm the only one think we oh you know I'm the only one think we oh you know I'm the only one putting into my mind what you know uh putting into my mind what you know uh putting into my mind what you know uh I'm reading this and that yes and no I'm reading this and that yes and no I'm reading this and that yes and no there's c just culturally you know like there's c just culturally you know like there's c just culturally you know like um we're being shaped in multiple ways um we're being shaped in multiple ways um we're being shaped in multiple ways and so I mean um I yeah I probably and so I mean um I yeah I probably and so I mean um I yeah I probably should have said this earlier but you should have said this earlier but you should have said this earlier but you know growing up in a broken home in know growing up in a broken home in know growing up in a broken home in Orange county. Um, you know, I I didn't Orange county. Um, you know, I I didn't Orange county. Um, you know, I I didn't have these conversations about a lot of have these conversations about a lot of have these conversations about a lot of basic manhood issues. Um, you know, and basic manhood issues. Um, you know, and basic manhood issues. Um, you know, and so I went to these outside sources. And so I went to these outside sources. And so I went to these outside sources. And so I recognize, and I say this in the so I recognize, and I say this in the so I recognize, and I say this in the work, but I recognize why so many men work, but I recognize why so many men work, but I recognize why so many men are drawn to Jordan B. Peterson in a way are drawn to Jordan B. Peterson in a way are drawn to Jordan B. Peterson in a way that is um I mean I think he has said it that is um I mean I think he has said it that is um I mean I think he has said it like you know uh he he feels like he's a like you know uh he he feels like he's a like you know uh he he feels like he's a father to tons of like thousands of father to tons of like thousands of father to tons of like thousands of young men because he's what he's really young men because he's what he's really young men because he's what he's really trying to do is instill wisdom in them trying to do is instill wisdom in them trying to do is instill wisdom in them but I mean I in the book I I kind of uh but I mean I in the book I I kind of uh but I mean I in the book I I kind of uh I work through these are natural law I work through these are natural law I work through these are natural law truths many of them uh natural law truths many of them uh natural law truths many of them uh natural law meaning that these are truths just meaning that these are truths just meaning that these are truths just grounded in general revelation of like grounded in general revelation of like grounded in general revelation of like you know it's good to pursue uh virtue you know it's good to pursue uh virtue you know it's good to pursue uh virtue it is like I and That's in within a it is like I and That's in within a it is like I and That's in within a biblical worldview that you should biblical worldview that you should biblical worldview that you should choose to to uh to have discipline in

choose to to uh to have discipline in choose to to uh to have discipline in your life or or ownership, your life or or ownership, your life or or ownership, accountability. That is the making of a accountability. That is the making of a accountability. That is the making of a good man. It just doesn't always mean good man. It just doesn't always mean good man. It just doesn't always mean that it it means you're becoming a good that it it means you're becoming a good that it it means you're becoming a good godly man. It can be detached from its godly man. It can be detached from its godly man. It can be detached from its divine origin. which that's where I sit divine origin. which that's where I sit divine origin. which that's where I sit here in the conversation and why it's so here in the conversation and why it's so here in the conversation and why it's so important to contextualize where is the important to contextualize where is the important to contextualize where is the well wisdom that they're drawing from well wisdom that they're drawing from well wisdom that they're drawing from because in many ways these men may be because in many ways these men may be because in many ways these men may be growing in development in terms of growing in development in terms of growing in development in terms of maturity uh relationally emotionally but maturity uh relationally emotionally but maturity uh relationally emotionally but they're not spiritually which is the they're not spiritually which is the they're not spiritually which is the which is the foundation to all this which is the foundation to all this which is the foundation to all this >> and and so uh for many of these >> and and so uh for many of these >> and and so uh for many of these conversations I men are it's great that conversations I men are it's great that conversations I men are it's great that men are talking more than ever about men are talking more than ever about men are talking more than ever about where they're at what they're struggling where they're at what they're struggling where they're at what they're struggling with. But I as a pastor and especially with. But I as a pastor and especially with. But I as a pastor and especially one that has um works with men, I don't one that has um works with men, I don't one that has um works with men, I don't want to delude be filled with any sort want to delude be filled with any sort want to delude be filled with any sort of disillusionment that what these men of disillusionment that what these men of disillusionment that what these men really need is Christ in combination really need is Christ in combination really need is Christ in combination with all these elements of an with all these elements of an with all these elements of an examination of habits, examination of examination of habits, examination of examination of habits, examination of vocation. And so that's what this work vocation. And so that's what this work vocation. And so that's what this work is really trying to do. And so uh you is really trying to do. And so uh you is really trying to do. And so uh you know even at the end we have the prayer know even at the end we have the prayer know even at the end we have the prayer of self-examination. And so it's there's of self-examination. And so it's there's of self-examination. And so it's there's a a combination of cultural it's in a a combination of cultural it's in a a combination of cultural it's in reality and you know me well Jason this reality and you know me well Jason this reality and you know me well Jason this is many of my passions uh all aligned in is many of my passions uh all aligned in is many of my passions uh all aligned in a book form. Oh yeah. Um, my PhD is in a book form. Oh yeah. Um, my PhD is in a book form. Oh yeah. Um, my PhD is in in Christian ethics and public theology, in Christian ethics and public theology, in Christian ethics and public theology, meaning culture.

meaning culture. meaning culture. >> And, uh, at the same time, because of my >> And, uh, at the same time, because of my >> And, uh, at the same time, because of my experience growing up in a broken home experience growing up in a broken home experience growing up in a broken home and being a pastor for, you know, now and being a pastor for, you know, now and being a pastor for, you know, now over a decade, um, I've had to have my over a decade, um, I've had to have my over a decade, um, I've had to have my own self-examination of how do I offer own self-examination of how do I offer own self-examination of how do I offer this to the Lord as I minister to men this to the Lord as I minister to men this to the Lord as I minister to men and I need to work through my own and I need to work through my own and I need to work through my own issues. And so that's why so much of issues. And so that's why so much of issues. And so that's why so much of this book is is both personal, but it's this book is is both personal, but it's this book is is both personal, but it's also pastoral because maybe for most of also pastoral because maybe for most of also pastoral because maybe for most of hopefully for most of the cases, I'm a hopefully for most of the cases, I'm a hopefully for most of the cases, I'm a few steps ahead um and offering the few steps ahead um and offering the few steps ahead um and offering the wisdom of hey, this is really true. wisdom of hey, this is really true. wisdom of hey, this is really true. Truly what helped to heal my wounds and Truly what helped to heal my wounds and Truly what helped to heal my wounds and how I sacrificed and offered it to the how I sacrificed and offered it to the how I sacrificed and offered it to the Lord. Lord. Lord. So, I found a sentence in the book that So, I found a sentence in the book that So, I found a sentence in the book that I think was a perfect like, hey, if I think was a perfect like, hey, if I think was a perfect like, hey, if you're going to make a summary goal of you're going to make a summary goal of you're going to make a summary goal of of what we're after in this book. It's of what we're after in this book. It's of what we're after in this book. It's this sentence, which says, "How is the this sentence, which says, "How is the this sentence, which says, "How is the inner world of a man becoming like the inner world of a man becoming like the inner world of a man becoming like the inner being of Jesus by the power of the inner being of Jesus by the power of the inner being of Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit?" Holy Spirit?" Holy Spirit?" >> So, you kind of get all these different >> So, you kind of get all these different >> So, you kind of get all these different elements in there. How's the inner world elements in there. How's the inner world elements in there. How's the inner world of the man? So, so that's kind of what of the man? So, so that's kind of what of the man? So, so that's kind of what we're talking about like like how how a we're talking about like like how how a we're talking about like like how how a man thinks everything that is going into man thinks everything that is going into man thinks everything that is going into how the man decides to process and see how the man decides to process and see how the man decides to process and see things and think about things.

things and think about things. things and think about things. >> How is that person how is that thing >> How is that person how is that thing >> How is that person how is that thing like the inner being of Jesus which can like the inner being of Jesus which can like the inner being of Jesus which can only be done through the power of the only be done through the power of the only be done through the power of the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit. >> So, so that seems like a clear goal, >> So, so that seems like a clear goal, >> So, so that seems like a clear goal, right? is to make our inner being our I right? is to make our inner being our I right? is to make our inner being our I should say our inner world more like the should say our inner world more like the should say our inner world more like the inner being of Christ done through the inner being of Christ done through the inner being of Christ done through the power of the Holy Spirit. So unpack the power of the Holy Spirit. So unpack the power of the Holy Spirit. So unpack the goal for us a little bit and and how goal for us a little bit and and how goal for us a little bit and and how does this tie into everything that we've does this tie into everything that we've does this tie into everything that we've just been talking about? just been talking about? just been talking about? >> Yeah. No, this that Jason, you picked a >> Yeah. No, this that Jason, you picked a >> Yeah. No, this that Jason, you picked a great line. I think that is pretty much great line. I think that is pretty much great line. I think that is pretty much the summary and when I the summary and when I the summary and when I >> wasn't even a bolded sentence in the >> wasn't even a bolded sentence in the >> wasn't even a bolded sentence in the book. I found it on my own. book. I found it on my own. book. I found it on my own. >> Extra cud to you buddy. Star. Star. I'll >> Extra cud to you buddy. Star. Star. I'll >> Extra cud to you buddy. Star. Star. I'll send you a little star chart. You get send you a little star chart. You get send you a little star chart. You get you get a gold one there. But you know you get a gold one there. But you know you get a gold one there. But you know where what I'm doing with that in that where what I'm doing with that in that where what I'm doing with that in that line is um I'm taking for many of you line is um I'm taking for many of you line is um I'm taking for many of you may recognize uh if you're familiar with may recognize uh if you're familiar with may recognize uh if you're familiar with works of spiritual formation, Dallas works of spiritual formation, Dallas works of spiritual formation, Dallas Willard in that there's the language in Willard in that there's the language in Willard in that there's the language in there is very uh very much from him. And there is very uh very much from him. And there is very uh very much from him. And so I take Dallas's uh definition of so I take Dallas's uh definition of so I take Dallas's uh definition of spiritual formation and what I'm doing spiritual formation and what I'm doing spiritual formation and what I'm doing is overlapping it with Romans 8:28-29 is overlapping it with Romans 8:28-29 is overlapping it with Romans 8:28-29 where where it says we were meant to be where where it says we were meant to be where where it says we were meant to be in reflection of Jesus. We are in reflection of Jesus. We are in reflection of Jesus. We are predestined as believers to to be predestined as believers to to be predestined as believers to to be conformed to his image. And so I'm conformed to his image. And so I'm conformed to his image. And so I'm taking that in the inner being of a man taking that in the inner being of a man taking that in the inner being of a man there. what I'm really talking about um there. what I'm really talking about um there. what I'm really talking about um in the New Testament it talks about in the New Testament it talks about in the New Testament it talks about cardia the heart and that that is um cardia the heart and that that is um cardia the heart and that that is um that language in the New Testament often

that language in the New Testament often that language in the New Testament often means our entire existence but it but it means our entire existence but it but it means our entire existence but it but it meant you know from uh the gut or the meant you know from uh the gut or the meant you know from uh the gut or the heart. It means like your innermost heart. It means like your innermost heart. It means like your innermost being and that and that is your deepest being and that and that is your deepest being and that and that is your deepest desires, your deepest longings for desires, your deepest longings for desires, your deepest longings for fulfillment, your emotions, your fulfillment, your emotions, your fulfillment, your emotions, your character, and how those all coincide character, and how those all coincide character, and how those all coincide together because they do. What you together because they do. What you together because they do. What you desire, again, what we're going back to desire, again, what we're going back to desire, again, what we're going back to what you long for is what you will what you long for is what you will what you long for is what you will eventually worship. And so, uh, how are eventually worship. And so, uh, how are eventually worship. And so, uh, how are our our aims as a man, our deepest our our aims as a man, our deepest our our aims as a man, our deepest longings, what where our eyes are set in longings, what where our eyes are set in longings, what where our eyes are set in our trajectory our trajectory our trajectory are those things aimed towards Christ are those things aimed towards Christ are those things aimed towards Christ and letting him start to rule over those and letting him start to rule over those and letting him start to rule over those now. now. now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because that's where the flood we like >> Because that's where the flood we like >> Because that's where the flood we like to, you know, call out, uh, you know, to, you know, call out, uh, you know, to, you know, call out, uh, you know, the flood light ministry of the Holy the flood light ministry of the Holy the flood light ministry of the Holy Spirit. His job is to is to meet us Spirit. His job is to is to meet us Spirit. His job is to is to meet us where we're really at in our struggles, where we're really at in our struggles, where we're really at in our struggles, in our habits, in our in our thoughts, in our habits, in our in our thoughts, in our habits, in our in our thoughts, in and these our coping mechanisms, and in and these our coping mechanisms, and in and these our coping mechanisms, and to then pointing it towards Christ and to then pointing it towards Christ and to then pointing it towards Christ and love, truth, truth, and grace. And and love, truth, truth, and grace. And and love, truth, truth, and grace. And and so that's where uh the whole book really so that's where uh the whole book really so that's where uh the whole book really is what you just said there, Jason. It's is what you just said there, Jason. It's is what you just said there, Jason. It's doing that, but in each element of the doing that, but in each element of the doing that, but in each element of the sphere of a man's life. And so that's sphere of a man's life. And so that's sphere of a man's life. And so that's why we do take on the cultural issues, why we do take on the cultural issues, why we do take on the cultural issues, but then part two of this book, um, I but then part two of this book, um, I but then part two of this book, um, I personally personally personally loved every bit of writing part two.

loved every bit of writing part two. loved every bit of writing part two. >> Um, it's probably the more personal >> Um, it's probably the more personal >> Um, it's probably the more personal aspect of it. In part one, you get you aspect of it. In part one, you get you aspect of it. In part one, you get you do get more of the a little bit of the do get more of the a little bit of the do get more of the a little bit of the academic side of me, um, and the academic side of me, um, and the academic side of me, um, and the cultural analysis because I think some cultural analysis because I think some cultural analysis because I think some men need to hear that. They need to hear men need to hear that. They need to hear men need to hear that. They need to hear that it's okay that men are frustrated that it's okay that men are frustrated that it's okay that men are frustrated in the church, that they feel like they in the church, that they feel like they in the church, that they feel like they aren't being equipped aren't being equipped aren't being equipped >> and to have a a conversation about that. >> and to have a a conversation about that. >> and to have a a conversation about that. I think we need to acknowledge those I think we need to acknowledge those I think we need to acknowledge those things. It's a way to gain trust with things. It's a way to gain trust with things. It's a way to gain trust with men because we all see it and I do as a men because we all see it and I do as a men because we all see it and I do as a pastor in the Western church. And so, pastor in the Western church. And so, pastor in the Western church. And so, but part two, it moves to what you just but part two, it moves to what you just but part two, it moves to what you just said there. How do we unpack this? Let's said there. How do we unpack this? Let's said there. How do we unpack this? Let's take our parenting or the times in life take our parenting or the times in life take our parenting or the times in life when we feel most stressed. When we feel when we feel most stressed. When we feel when we feel most stressed. When we feel feel like we're walking through a, you feel like we're walking through a, you feel like we're walking through a, you know, a storm um or a season of know, a storm um or a season of know, a storm um or a season of suffering, it's a reminder that our suffering, it's a reminder that our suffering, it's a reminder that our families are watching us. families are watching us. families are watching us. >> Yeah. And how as men do we in our full >> Yeah. And how as men do we in our full >> Yeah. And how as men do we in our full emotions, whether we're disappointed emotions, whether we're disappointed emotions, whether we're disappointed that day, sad, whether we're fearful, that day, sad, whether we're fearful, that day, sad, whether we're fearful, how do we tell our children and our how do we tell our children and our how do we tell our children and our wives that very thing and say, "Today, wives that very thing and say, "Today, wives that very thing and say, "Today, I'm going to I'm going to offer that to I'm going to I'm going to offer that to I'm going to I'm going to offer that to the Lord, though. That's the process of the Lord, though. That's the process of the Lord, though. That's the process of maturity right there."

maturity right there." maturity right there." >> Yeah. I'm I'm glad you went there cuz >> Yeah. I'm I'm glad you went there cuz >> Yeah. I'm I'm glad you went there cuz because that's what I was thinking about because that's what I was thinking about because that's what I was thinking about this this whole time is I I don't think this this whole time is I I don't think this this whole time is I I don't think I've ever really I've ever really I've ever really appreciated appreciated appreciated how confusing how confusing how confusing it it can be for men in the church. And it it can be for men in the church. And it it can be for men in the church. And I say and I mean that this way like we I say and I mean that this way like we I say and I mean that this way like we are told to you know be be a leader in are told to you know be be a leader in are told to you know be be a leader in the household to be a leader in our the household to be a leader in our the household to be a leader in our society. We are told through, you know, society. We are told through, you know, society. We are told through, you know, like especially for what we're talking like especially for what we're talking like especially for what we're talking about through culture is we're told to, about through culture is we're told to, about through culture is we're told to, you know, be a certain kind of man like, you know, be a certain kind of man like, you know, be a certain kind of man like, you know, or whatnot. you know, or whatnot. you know, or whatnot. >> And yet we also say, but you need to >> And yet we also say, but you need to >> And yet we also say, but you need to surrender yourself to the work of the surrender yourself to the work of the surrender yourself to the work of the Holy Spirit. you need to surrender to Holy Spirit. you need to surrender to Holy Spirit. you need to surrender to Christ and say, you know, it's a you Christ and say, you know, it's a you Christ and say, you know, it's a you have to have daily surrender while also have to have daily surrender while also have to have daily surrender while also being a leader while also, you know, being a leader while also, you know, being a leader while also, you know, wanting to be a wanting to be a wanting to be a a learner and seek biblical wisdom, but a learner and seek biblical wisdom, but a learner and seek biblical wisdom, but also like have discernment and be, you also like have discernment and be, you also like have discernment and be, you know, all this. It's it feels like know, all this. It's it feels like know, all this. It's it feels like you're being pulled in all these you're being pulled in all these you're being pulled in all these different ways that if you think about different ways that if you think about different ways that if you think about it, it seems like don't make sense. And it, it seems like don't make sense. And it, it seems like don't make sense. And yet that's a part of the mystery of the yet that's a part of the mystery of the yet that's a part of the mystery of the faith I guess is that is that is that we faith I guess is that is that is that we faith I guess is that is that is that we do all those things.

do all those things. do all those things. >> And here's the thing. I mean uh Jordan >> And here's the thing. I mean uh Jordan >> And here's the thing. I mean uh Jordan B. Peterson I think it was I I have the B. Peterson I think it was I I have the B. Peterson I think it was I I have the date in the book but like a year or two date in the book but like a year or two date in the book but like a year or two ago he put up a YouTube uh you know ago he put up a YouTube uh you know ago he put up a YouTube uh you know video saying that for evangelical video saying that for evangelical video saying that for evangelical churches in particular, we have such an churches in particular, we have such an churches in particular, we have such an opportunity to welcome men back into the opportunity to welcome men back into the opportunity to welcome men back into the church and say we're here for you. will church and say we're here for you. will church and say we're here for you. will equip you. We, no matter where you're equip you. We, no matter where you're equip you. We, no matter where you're at, we're here to help develop you as a at, we're here to help develop you as a at, we're here to help develop you as a man because one culture, society does man because one culture, society does man because one culture, society does need you, but so does the church and need you, but so does the church and need you, but so does the church and your family to grow into the man that your family to grow into the man that your family to grow into the man that God's called you to be. And while he God's called you to be. And while he God's called you to be. And while he doesn't really distill it in a way that doesn't really distill it in a way that doesn't really distill it in a way that um he he kind of plucks apart biblical um he he kind of plucks apart biblical um he he kind of plucks apart biblical narratives, but doesn't exactly he goes narratives, but doesn't exactly he goes narratives, but doesn't exactly he goes back to he doesn't fully take it back to back to he doesn't fully take it back to back to he doesn't fully take it back to wisdom from above. wisdom from above. wisdom from above. >> Um which is my you know short. Yeah. >> Um which is my you know short. Yeah. >> Um which is my you know short. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. And and so where a book like >> Yes. Yeah. And and so where a book like >> Yes. Yeah. And and so where a book like this is is saying no, everything about this is is saying no, everything about this is is saying no, everything about wisdom from above and the Holy Spirit's wisdom from above and the Holy Spirit's wisdom from above and the Holy Spirit's work in your life is necessary to work in your life is necessary to work in your life is necessary to actually lead well. And and when we talk actually lead well. And and when we talk actually lead well. And and when we talk about a man surrendering, the irony of a about a man surrendering, the irony of a about a man surrendering, the irony of a man's surrender to Jesus and and men and man's surrender to Jesus and and men and man's surrender to Jesus and and men and women, in your surrender, you fully women, in your surrender, you fully women, in your surrender, you fully learn who you are and how to live learn who you are and how to live learn who you are and how to live because what you're doing is you're because what you're doing is you're because what you're doing is you're actually untangling uh the unhealth, the actually untangling uh the unhealth, the actually untangling uh the unhealth, the sin in your life that's actually sin in your life that's actually sin in your life that's actually contrary to your identity. And that's, contrary to your identity. And that's, contrary to your identity. And that's, you know, and I know you um some of my you know, and I know you um some of my you know, and I know you um some of my academic work is more on this is that academic work is more on this is that academic work is more on this is that your identity as an image bearer

your identity as an image bearer your identity as an image bearer >> when we when we're ingrained in in >> when we when we're ingrained in in >> when we when we're ingrained in in habits of sin and obviously not even habits of sin and obviously not even habits of sin and obviously not even having a relationship with Jesus, we are having a relationship with Jesus, we are having a relationship with Jesus, we are acting contrary to who God's called us acting contrary to who God's called us acting contrary to who God's called us to be. And and so even in in times where to be. And and so even in in times where to be. And and so even in in times where we think we're putting on virtue, it's we think we're putting on virtue, it's we think we're putting on virtue, it's still not in union with Jesus, which is still not in union with Jesus, which is still not in union with Jesus, which is empowering actual life transformation empowering actual life transformation empowering actual life transformation for us. Um we don't want just men to be for us. Um we don't want just men to be for us. Um we don't want just men to be stuck in behavior modification towards stuck in behavior modification towards stuck in behavior modification towards somewhat the right goal. No, we want somewhat the right goal. No, we want somewhat the right goal. No, we want them to be in union with Jesus and them to be in union with Jesus and them to be in union with Jesus and living into their their living into their their living into their their identity as an image bearer called to identity as an image bearer called to identity as an image bearer called to lead their home, lead in the church, lead their home, lead in the church, lead their home, lead in the church, serve them in the home and in the serve them in the home and in the serve them in the home and in the church. And oftent times what leadership church. And oftent times what leadership church. And oftent times what leadership looks like is is go is is being last, looks like is is go is is being last, looks like is is go is is being last, right? We have so many common, you know, right? We have so many common, you know, right? We have so many common, you know, leadership sayings that we could go to, leadership sayings that we could go to, leadership sayings that we could go to, >> but that is >> but that is >> but that is >> the the call to sacrifice is really the >> the the call to sacrifice is really the >> the the call to sacrifice is really the call to to freedom. call to to freedom. call to to freedom. >> And that's I, you know, I close the book >> And that's I, you know, I close the book >> And that's I, you know, I close the book with that, but um that's Yeah. No, I get with that, but um that's Yeah. No, I get with that, but um that's Yeah. No, I get it. And I think it's important that for it. And I think it's important that for it. And I think it's important that for churches like Saddleback, for other churches like Saddleback, for other churches like Saddleback, for other larger churches like uh you know larger churches like uh you know larger churches like uh you know obviously I was a part of the pastoral obviously I was a part of the pastoral obviously I was a part of the pastoral staff there and mega churches are not staff there and mega churches are not staff there and mega churches are not they get a bad rap sometimes because they get a bad rap sometimes because they get a bad rap sometimes because it's oh it's just so giant. Well and no it's oh it's just so giant. Well and no it's oh it's just so giant. Well and no there's often sometimes more there's often sometimes more there's often sometimes more intentionality. It depends on the intentionality. It depends on the intentionality. It depends on the church. You can be equally larger and church. You can be equally larger and church. You can be equally larger and smaller and if there's not smaller and if there's not smaller and if there's not intentionality it doesn't matter. And I intentionality it doesn't matter. And I intentionality it doesn't matter. And I think we're we're learning right now in think we're we're learning right now in think we're we're learning right now in especially within church culture is if

especially within church culture is if especially within church culture is if you start pouring into men, you start you start pouring into men, you start you start pouring into men, you start changing households and family dynamics changing households and family dynamics changing households and family dynamics and generations. You see this come full and generations. You see this come full and generations. You see this come full circle in your church when men are circle in your church when men are circle in your church when men are stepping up and and leading and stepping up and and leading and stepping up and and leading and understanding uh what it means to serve understanding uh what it means to serve understanding uh what it means to serve in the church. It's it's healthy for the in the church. It's it's healthy for the in the church. It's it's healthy for the whole body. whole body. whole body. >> Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to go back to what >> Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to go back to what >> Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to go back to what you were talking about about identity uh you were talking about about identity uh you were talking about about identity uh because because that is the root o of because because that is the root o of because because that is the root o of all this and I think and I love and all this and I think and I love and all this and I think and I love and again to go back to how the book was again to go back to how the book was again to go back to how the book was titled the man you were meant to be that titled the man you were meant to be that titled the man you were meant to be that indicates that there was intentionality indicates that there was intentionality indicates that there was intentionality that there is a plan that that there was that there is a plan that that there was that there is a plan that that there was there is somebody or something who is there is somebody or something who is there is somebody or something who is ascribing this is what you were designed ascribing this is what you were designed ascribing this is what you were designed for and it's almost like there's the for and it's almost like there's the for and it's almost like there's the choice that the man gets to make as who choice that the man gets to make as who choice that the man gets to make as who gets to speak into this who's the one gets to speak into this who's the one gets to speak into this who's the one who I'm going to listen to that says how who I'm going to listen to that says how who I'm going to listen to that says how I'm meant to be and if you you know if I'm meant to be and if you you know if I'm meant to be and if you you know if you have your deeply rooted identity and you have your deeply rooted identity and you have your deeply rooted identity and attachment to Christ and understanding attachment to Christ and understanding attachment to Christ and understanding you know and acceptance of that then you know and acceptance of that then you know and acceptance of that then it's like yes this is who who God has it's like yes this is who who God has it's like yes this is who who God has made me to be this is what God says made me to be this is what God says made me to be this is what God says through his word of of how of how a man through his word of of how of how a man through his word of of how of how a man is supposed to live and approach um life is supposed to live and approach um life is supposed to live and approach um life with him or you can see you know with him or you can see you know with him or you can see you know the man who a culture says I'm meant to the man who a culture says I'm meant to the man who a culture says I'm meant to be or it could be the man that my father be or it could be the man that my father be or it could be the man that my father says I'm meant to be or the man or or or says I'm meant to be or the man or or or says I'm meant to be or the man or or or whatever else is taking that place to whatever else is taking that place to whatever else is taking that place to you know speak and and assign a

you know speak and and assign a you know speak and and assign a description a a goal a purpose for your description a a goal a purpose for your description a a goal a purpose for your life and so I think you know so when you life and so I think you know so when you life and so I think you know so when you keep yourself rooted in identity and keep yourself rooted in identity and keep yourself rooted in identity and really wrestle that to the ground then really wrestle that to the ground then really wrestle that to the ground then you're laying a foundation for you're laying a foundation for you're laying a foundation for everything else to build on top of so everything else to build on top of so everything else to build on top of so for so for a man like if you are for so for a man like if you are for so for a man like if you are listening right now and you've never listening right now and you've never listening right now and you've never really settled the question of who is really settled the question of who is really settled the question of who is defining my purpose who is defining how defining my purpose who is defining how defining my purpose who is defining how I'm supposed to be go back to that root I'm supposed to be go back to that root I'm supposed to be go back to that root identity piece because once you get identity piece because once you get identity piece because once you get clear and kind and set on that clear and kind and set on that clear and kind and set on that >> then you're just building everything >> then you're just building everything >> then you're just building everything else on all of the other areas of your else on all of the other areas of your else on all of the other areas of your life whether it's your financial health life whether it's your financial health life whether it's your financial health vocation all these other areas of health vocation all these other areas of health vocation all these other areas of health your relationships how you approach what your relationships how you approach what your relationships how you approach what you intake and how you process things. you intake and how you process things. you intake and how you process things. Everything else in your life is going to Everything else in your life is going to Everything else in your life is going to then be built on this foundation of who then be built on this foundation of who then be built on this foundation of who you are, of who and and our hope would you are, of who and and our hope would you are, of who and and our hope would be who God says you are. And then you be who God says you are. And then you be who God says you are. And then you build from that. build from that. build from that. >> And that's the thing, Jason, you're >> And that's the thing, Jason, you're >> And that's the thing, Jason, you're you're hitting some great you're you're you're hitting some great you're you're you're hitting some great you're you're tossing softballs up for me, buddy. So, tossing softballs up for me, buddy. So, tossing softballs up for me, buddy. So, thank you. That's my job.

thank you. That's my job. thank you. That's my job. >> Um, but but you know, going back even to >> Um, but but you know, going back even to >> Um, but but you know, going back even to the garden, Adam, like when God says the garden, Adam, like when God says the garden, Adam, like when God says that things were good, it does not mean that things were good, it does not mean that things were good, it does not mean complete. And so even in a world where complete. And so even in a world where complete. And so even in a world where you you know me and I I love theological you you know me and I I love theological you you know me and I I love theological hypotheticals here uh possible worlds hypotheticals here uh possible worlds hypotheticals here uh possible worlds but like even in a world where Adam had but like even in a world where Adam had but like even in a world where Adam had not fallen and Eve not fallen and Eve not fallen and Eve >> Adam and was still to grow in wisdom >> Adam and was still to grow in wisdom >> Adam and was still to grow in wisdom >> that's the thing time that we he was not >> that's the thing time that we he was not >> that's the thing time that we he was not imparted perfect knowledge of of of his imparted perfect knowledge of of of his imparted perfect knowledge of of of his vocation of knowledge of God the reason vocation of knowledge of God the reason vocation of knowledge of God the reason time in itself is is something essential time in itself is is something essential time in itself is is something essential to human existence is because we are a to human existence is because we are a to human existence is because we are a type of creature that with time grows in type of creature that with time grows in type of creature that with time grows in knowledge and experience and therefore knowledge and experience and therefore knowledge and experience and therefore more awareness of who God is. And so more awareness of who God is. And so more awareness of who God is. And so right now when we're when we're born not right now when we're when we're born not right now when we're when we're born not we are now set in the context of a we are now set in the context of a we are now set in the context of a sinful world, a sinful broken world sinful world, a sinful broken world sinful world, a sinful broken world where what was once a natural where what was once a natural where what was once a natural progression of we we inherently knew progression of we we inherently knew progression of we we inherently knew God. Uh we had a relationship with him God. Uh we had a relationship with him God. Uh we had a relationship with him and we're to grow in knowledge of him.

and we're to grow in knowledge of him. and we're to grow in knowledge of him. Well, that ceases to exist. And on top Well, that ceases to exist. And on top Well, that ceases to exist. And on top of that, now when we do come and and of that, now when we do come and and of that, now when we do come and and have saving faith in Jesus, we're now have saving faith in Jesus, we're now have saving faith in Jesus, we're now working backwards or out of the working backwards or out of the working backwards or out of the brokenness. We're having to we the the brokenness. We're having to we the the brokenness. We're having to we the the spirit is is mending our brokenness um spirit is is mending our brokenness um spirit is is mending our brokenness um and working through the the knowledge and working through the the knowledge and working through the the knowledge from the wisdom from below that we've from the wisdom from below that we've from the wisdom from below that we've gained so much experience with uh gained so much experience with uh gained so much experience with uh throughout a lifetime. And so when you throughout a lifetime. And so when you throughout a lifetime. And so when you when you talk about um our identity, I when you talk about um our identity, I when you talk about um our identity, I think it's think it's think it's what I hope when men read this book is what I hope when men read this book is what I hope when men read this book is there's frequently a calling in the there's frequently a calling in the there's frequently a calling in the church to man up. church to man up. church to man up. >> And I think that's really difficult >> And I think that's really difficult >> And I think that's really difficult because most men do not does they don't because most men do not does they don't because most men do not does they don't know what that really means at this know what that really means at this know what that really means at this point. point. point. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Or or they do and there's a fear that I >> Or or they do and there's a fear that I >> Or or they do and there's a fear that I can't live into it. can't live into it. can't live into it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. A and what instead what I'm hoping with A and what instead what I'm hoping with A and what instead what I'm hoping with this book and and why I specifically this book and and why I specifically this book and and why I specifically didn't take that angle is because I didn't take that angle is because I didn't take that angle is because I would rather you understand your would rather you understand your would rather you understand your identity as an image bearer and as a son identity as an image bearer and as a son identity as an image bearer and as a son of a son in in in terms of of you're a of a son in in in terms of of you're a of a son in in in terms of of you're a son of God that you're growing in son of God that you're growing in son of God that you're growing in greater knowledge of we talked about greater knowledge of we talked about greater knowledge of we talked about Romans 8:28-29.

Romans 8:28-29. Romans 8:28-29. I want to talk about you being a mirror I want to talk about you being a mirror I want to talk about you being a mirror image of Jesus. image of Jesus. image of Jesus. And so when you accept your sunship uh And so when you accept your sunship uh And so when you accept your sunship uh in in God's family and actually that in in God's family and actually that in in God's family and actually that identity, I want you to think about the identity, I want you to think about the identity, I want you to think about the fruit of the spirit fruit of the spirit fruit of the spirit >> from gentleness to kindness all the way >> from gentleness to kindness all the way >> from gentleness to kindness all the way down. And and it's easier I believe for down. And and it's easier I believe for down. And and it's easier I believe for a man to understand a biblical worldview a man to understand a biblical worldview a man to understand a biblical worldview of his his masculinity and manhood that of his his masculinity and manhood that of his his masculinity and manhood that way instead of telling just to man up way instead of telling just to man up way instead of telling just to man up and then giving him the characteristics and then giving him the characteristics and then giving him the characteristics or the activities of a man of a of a or the activities of a man of a of a or the activities of a man of a of a true godly man. Because what what true godly man. Because what what true godly man. Because what what accidentally happens with that if you accidentally happens with that if you accidentally happens with that if you don't have this identity piece you can don't have this identity piece you can don't have this identity piece you can accidentally start doing good things but accidentally start doing good things but accidentally start doing good things but have and even start with good aims but have and even start with good aims but have and even start with good aims but down the way you you'll eventually fall down the way you you'll eventually fall down the way you you'll eventually fall off that and what you'll what I don't off that and what you'll what I don't off that and what you'll what I don't want you to become is a whitewashed want you to become is a whitewashed want you to become is a whitewashed tomb. tomb. tomb. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And so that's why the identity piece if >> And so that's why the identity piece if >> And so that's why the identity piece if you can settle that identity piece of you can settle that identity piece of you can settle that identity piece of where are your deepest longings and where are your deepest longings and where are your deepest longings and fulfillments and desires coming from.

fulfillments and desires coming from. fulfillments and desires coming from. Uh, I mean I I challenge guys like to if Uh, I mean I I challenge guys like to if Uh, I mean I I challenge guys like to if you had a perfect world, what would it you had a perfect world, what would it you had a perfect world, what would it look like look like look like >> and who would it be with? And so right >> and who would it be with? And so right >> and who would it be with? And so right now when you think about who are who are now when you think about who are who are now when you think about who are who are you desperately wanting approval from, you desperately wanting approval from, you desperately wanting approval from, >> that should tell you everything about >> that should tell you everything about >> that should tell you everything about your identity. your identity. your identity. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And so coming back from well I I And so coming back from well I I And so coming back from well I I actually want to my identity be to be actually want to my identity be to be actually want to my identity be to be surrendered to Jesus in the fact of I I surrendered to Jesus in the fact of I I surrendered to Jesus in the fact of I I want my most approval to be from God want my most approval to be from God want my most approval to be from God alone. alone. alone. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And in that way when that's taken care >> And in that way when that's taken care >> And in that way when that's taken care of that will make me the man I'm meant of that will make me the man I'm meant of that will make me the man I'm meant to be. It'll make me the husband, the to be. It'll make me the husband, the to be. It'll make me the husband, the father. Um and that's what I have to father. Um and that's what I have to father. Um and that's what I have to remember on some of these toughest days remember on some of these toughest days remember on some of these toughest days as as a dad, as a husband. I'm not as as a dad, as a husband. I'm not as as a dad, as a husband. I'm not perfect in any way, but you know, when perfect in any way, but you know, when perfect in any way, but you know, when I'm rooting my identity in Christ and I'm rooting my identity in Christ and I'm rooting my identity in Christ and understanding my place in God's family, understanding my place in God's family, understanding my place in God's family, there's a joy to be found in that, too. there's a joy to be found in that, too. there's a joy to be found in that, too. Love that. So, so what can a man who's Love that. So, so what can a man who's Love that. So, so what can a man who's listening right now start to do?

listening right now start to do? listening right now start to do? What's something that they can What's something that they can What's something that they can >> they can start to kind of help them get >> they can start to kind of help them get >> they can start to kind of help them get on a better track to live out being the on a better track to live out being the on a better track to live out being the man they're meant to be? man they're meant to be? man they're meant to be? Yeah, this is probably uh going to be Yeah, this is probably uh going to be Yeah, this is probably uh going to be one of the easier ones. I get in a one of the easier ones. I get in a one of the easier ones. I get in a group, get in a men's group. group, get in a men's group. group, get in a men's group. >> Um and obviously I've as you know >> Um and obviously I've as you know >> Um and obviously I've as you know working with small groups there here in working with small groups there here in working with small groups there here in Nashville. Um Nashville. Um Nashville. Um >> I'm I'm committed to the idea that >> I'm I'm committed to the idea that >> I'm I'm committed to the idea that groups is one of the most groups is one of the most groups is one of the most transformational disciplehip transformational disciplehip transformational disciplehip opportunities that we have. opportunities that we have. opportunities that we have. >> Um you know phrases, they're all true. >> Um you know phrases, they're all true. >> Um you know phrases, they're all true. Better together, you can't go don't go Better together, you can't go don't go Better together, you can't go don't go alone. They're all true. Um, but here's alone. They're all true. Um, but here's alone. They're all true. Um, but here's the piece that I would encourage you as the piece that I would encourage you as the piece that I would encourage you as a man who's listening. Show up ready to a man who's listening. Show up ready to a man who's listening. Show up ready to go in those groups. Um, if you don't go in those groups. Um, if you don't go in those groups. Um, if you don't find a culture of men being brutally find a culture of men being brutally find a culture of men being brutally honest with themselves, set it. honest with themselves, set it. honest with themselves, set it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You be the person who starts that trend. >> You be the person who starts that trend. >> You be the person who starts that trend. You be the leader, the group leader You be the leader, the group leader You be the leader, the group leader who's willing to put themselves out who's willing to put themselves out who's willing to put themselves out there. And that's scary. Again, like I there. And that's scary. Again, like I there. And that's scary. Again, like I said, that's scary. But that is where said, that's scary. But that is where said, that's scary. But that is where the truth growth happens. Because if the truth growth happens. Because if the truth growth happens. Because if when we start to practice when we start to practice when we start to practice uh that sort of vulnerability and uh that sort of vulnerability and uh that sort of vulnerability and honesty out loud, honesty out loud, honesty out loud, it transform your your your it transform your your your it transform your your your relationships and your friendships and relationships and your friendships and relationships and your friendships and it comes full circle back to your it comes full circle back to your it comes full circle back to your marriage. But you've got to first marriage. But you've got to first marriage. But you've got to first practice that with with in prayer.

practice that with with in prayer. practice that with with in prayer. >> And so it all it all works together. And >> And so it all it all works together. And >> And so it all it all works together. And that's why I want for in a group that's why I want for in a group that's why I want for in a group experience that holistic group experience that holistic group experience that holistic group disciplehip experience is what men need disciplehip experience is what men need disciplehip experience is what men need in this season. in this season. in this season. >> Agree and love it. Get in a group. So >> Agree and love it. Get in a group. So >> Agree and love it. Get in a group. So >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> spin on that. What is one thing that >> spin on that. What is one thing that >> spin on that. What is one thing that >> women who are listening can do to >> women who are listening can do to >> women who are listening can do to support and encourage either their support and encourage either their support and encourage either their husbands or other men in their life to husbands or other men in their life to husbands or other men in their life to be the man they're meant to be? be the man they're meant to be? be the man they're meant to be? >> Lean in. And I know for a lot of women, >> Lean in. And I know for a lot of women, >> Lean in. And I know for a lot of women, a lot of wives, they say, "I do. I do a lot of wives, they say, "I do. I do a lot of wives, they say, "I do. I do >> uh lean in and ask your husband how he's >> uh lean in and ask your husband how he's >> uh lean in and ask your husband how he's doing. And I and I mean that in a sense doing. And I and I mean that in a sense doing. And I and I mean that in a sense of most men, they keep it in so tight. of most men, they keep it in so tight. of most men, they keep it in so tight. Um they don't want to say that they're Um they don't want to say that they're Um they don't want to say that they're scared of the finances. They don't want scared of the finances. They don't want scared of the finances. They don't want to say that they're scared of what's to say that they're scared of what's to say that they're scared of what's ahead. Or maybe it's a health issue or ahead. Or maybe it's a health issue or ahead. Or maybe it's a health issue or maybe it's something in your marriage maybe it's something in your marriage maybe it's something in your marriage that there's just a lack of willingness that there's just a lack of willingness that there's just a lack of willingness to confront. to confront. to confront. One of the things that that I think One of the things that that I think One of the things that that I think is essential for a relationship uh but is essential for a relationship uh but is essential for a relationship uh but obviously in marriage is coming to that obviously in marriage is coming to that obviously in marriage is coming to that person and giving them permission person and giving them permission person and giving them permission >> to just say here's where I'm actually >> to just say here's where I'm actually >> to just say here's where I'm actually struggling with and uh obviously you struggling with and uh obviously you struggling with and uh obviously you know I statements are important not you know I statements are important not you know I statements are important not you statements um but giving them permission statements um but giving them permission statements um but giving them permission and then to follow that to pursue health and then to follow that to pursue health and then to follow that to pursue health in Christ and what that may mean is in Christ and what that may mean is in Christ and what that may mean is challenging your husband with hey who challenging your husband with hey who challenging your husband with hey who are you hanging out with do you even are you hanging out with do you even are you hanging out with do you even have friendships because many men don't

have friendships because many men don't have friendships because many men don't and that's a and that's a starting place and that's a and that's a starting place and that's a and that's a starting place so encouraging them and uh I mean I have so encouraging them and uh I mean I have so encouraging them and uh I mean I have many wives who sign up their husbands many wives who sign up their husbands many wives who sign up their husbands for men's groups for men's groups for men's groups >> and what's funny is that happens the >> and what's funny is that happens the >> and what's funny is that happens the first round but then they take it the first round but then they take it the first round but then they take it the second round second round second round >> and I would say give him permission to >> and I would say give him permission to >> and I would say give him permission to like hey I need you out of the house one like hey I need you out of the house one like hey I need you out of the house one night a week night a week night a week >> to go sit with other men in biblical >> to go sit with other men in biblical >> to go sit with other men in biblical community community community >> and I will tell you that will change a >> and I will tell you that will change a >> and I will tell you that will change a family family family Well, the book is The Man You're Meant Well, the book is The Man You're Meant Well, the book is The Man You're Meant to Be. John, it was so great to chat to Be. John, it was so great to chat to Be. John, it was so great to chat with you today. It's so great to connect with you today. It's so great to connect with you today. It's so great to connect about about this stuff, and I I'm just, about about this stuff, and I I'm just, about about this stuff, and I I'm just, as I said earlier, I'm so excited for as I said earlier, I'm so excited for as I said earlier, I'm so excited for what God is going to be doing what God is going to be doing what God is going to be doing >> um in the lives of the men and the women >> um in the lives of the men and the women >> um in the lives of the men and the women who pick up this book and, you know, and who pick up this book and, you know, and who pick up this book and, you know, and get into it. So would you mind closing get into it. So would you mind closing get into it. So would you mind closing us in prayer? Specifically praying for us in prayer? Specifically praying for us in prayer? Specifically praying for people who people who people who >> um for the men uh as they as they take >> um for the men uh as they as they take >> um for the men uh as they as they take on this calling, but also for you know on this calling, but also for you know on this calling, but also for you know the the the >> women or the kids in their lives too um >> women or the kids in their lives too um >> women or the kids in their lives too um to be you know to be you know to be you know >> those encouragers in this as for the men >> those encouragers in this as for the men >> those encouragers in this as for the men who who take on this journey.

who who take on this journey. who who take on this journey. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Father, we know that you are good. >> Father, we know that you are good. >> Father, we know that you are good. you're a good father who always runs you're a good father who always runs you're a good father who always runs after us. So Lord, I um I'm just praying after us. So Lord, I um I'm just praying after us. So Lord, I um I'm just praying for that for the man right now who's for that for the man right now who's for that for the man right now who's listening who quite frankly maybe he's listening who quite frankly maybe he's listening who quite frankly maybe he's in that prodigal stage of of running in that prodigal stage of of running in that prodigal stage of of running away from you or he's the older brother away from you or he's the older brother away from you or he's the older brother in the prodical son story who maybe he's in the prodical son story who maybe he's in the prodical son story who maybe he's in the church but uh his relationship in the church but uh his relationship in the church but uh his relationship with you is one of cold and bitterness. with you is one of cold and bitterness. with you is one of cold and bitterness. Um Lord, I pray that you meet the men Um Lord, I pray that you meet the men Um Lord, I pray that you meet the men where they're at right now. that we come where they're at right now. that we come where they're at right now. that we come to you as a good father willing to share to you as a good father willing to share to you as a good father willing to share our hearts because one you are you our hearts because one you are you our hearts because one you are you already see it but Lord out of obedience already see it but Lord out of obedience already see it but Lord out of obedience we we want to give you everything we we we want to give you everything we we we want to give you everything we have Lord I ask that um for all the the have Lord I ask that um for all the the have Lord I ask that um for all the the men who may be listening right now uh men who may be listening right now uh men who may be listening right now uh Lord when they when they see the book Lord when they when they see the book Lord when they when they see the book title and they say what what does it title and they say what what does it title and they say what what does it mean to really have self-examination mean to really have self-examination mean to really have self-examination Lord I I ask that you work that into Lord I I ask that you work that into Lord I I ask that you work that into their practices Lord into their time and their practices Lord into their time and their practices Lord into their time and that you meet them in it in a way that that you meet them in it in a way that that you meet them in it in a way that there's life transformation uh in you, there's life transformation uh in you, there's life transformation uh in you, Lord. That this your spirit is is alive Lord. That this your spirit is is alive Lord. That this your spirit is is alive and working within each of us, Lord. Um and working within each of us, Lord. Um and working within each of us, Lord. Um to pull out all that fleshly temptation.

to pull out all that fleshly temptation. to pull out all that fleshly temptation. Um Lord, to to the fact is we that won't Um Lord, to to the fact is we that won't Um Lord, to to the fact is we that won't ever go away, but we can surrender it to ever go away, but we can surrender it to ever go away, but we can surrender it to you, Lord. We we can grow in health in you, Lord. We we can grow in health in you, Lord. We we can grow in health in you. And so, Lord, I ask that for each you. And so, Lord, I ask that for each you. And so, Lord, I ask that for each man so that he can become the father, man so that he can become the father, man so that he can become the father, the husband, the friend that uh those the husband, the friend that uh those the husband, the friend that uh those around him need. Lord, I ask a blessing around him need. Lord, I ask a blessing around him need. Lord, I ask a blessing on all the the families that are um the on all the the families that are um the on all the the families that are um the husbands right now that are listening, husbands right now that are listening, husbands right now that are listening, the wives, I ask a blessing upon their the wives, I ask a blessing upon their the wives, I ask a blessing upon their homes. Lord, um that at the end of the homes. Lord, um that at the end of the homes. Lord, um that at the end of the day that they sacrifice and give day that they sacrifice and give day that they sacrifice and give everything to you so that their their everything to you so that their their everything to you so that their their whole home can praise you for who you whole home can praise you for who you whole home can praise you for who you are, Lord. We're so grateful in advance. are, Lord. We're so grateful in advance. are, Lord. We're so grateful in advance. We ask this all of you and sons in your We ask this all of you and sons in your We ask this all of you and sons in your son's name. Amen. [Music] [Music] If you enjoyed this episode, consider If you enjoyed this episode, consider If you enjoyed this episode, consider giving us a rating or review on iTunes. giving us a rating or review on iTunes. giving us a rating or review on iTunes. If you do, you'll help other people find If you do, you'll help other people find If you do, you'll help other people find us in the future. You can also listen to us in the future. You can also listen to us in the future. You can also listen to these episodes on YouTube. Just these episodes on YouTube. Just these episodes on YouTube. Just subscribe to the Saddleback Church subscribe to the Saddleback Church subscribe to the Saddleback Church YouTube channel for these conversations, YouTube channel for these conversations, YouTube channel for these conversations, plus lots of other video content. And if plus lots of other video content. And if plus lots of other video content. And if you are already listening to us on you are already listening to us on you are already listening to us on YouTube, subscribe to the Doable YouTube, subscribe to the Doable YouTube, subscribe to the Doable Disciplehip Podcast on Apple Podcast or Disciplehip Podcast on Apple Podcast or Disciplehip Podcast on Apple Podcast or your favorite podcasting app so you can your favorite podcasting app so you can your favorite podcasting app so you can listen in the car or wherever else you listen in the car or wherever else you listen in the car or wherever else you go. Don't forget to visit go. Don't forget to visit go. Don't forget to visit saddleback.com/doable saddleback.com/doable saddleback.com/doable to check out all of our previous to check out all of our previous to check out all of our previous episodes. And you can go to episodes. And you can go to episodes. And you can go to saddleback.com/grow saddleback.com/grow saddleback.com/grow to find spiritual growth resources and to find spiritual growth resources and to find spiritual growth resources and view a calendar of upcoming events.

view a calendar of upcoming events. view a calendar of upcoming events. Lastly, you can always get in touch with Lastly, you can always get in touch with Lastly, you can always get in touch with us by emailing [email protected]. us by emailing [email protected]. us by emailing [email protected]. Send us your thoughts. Send us your Send us your thoughts. Send us your Send us your thoughts. Send us your questions, your Bible questions, your questions, your Bible questions, your questions, your Bible questions, your life questions, whatever. Who knows? life questions, whatever. Who knows? life questions, whatever. Who knows? Your question might just inspire an Your question might just inspire an Your question might just inspire an upcoming episode. Thanks again for upcoming episode. Thanks again for upcoming episode. Thanks again for tuning in to Dubble Disciplehip. I'm tuning in to Dubble Disciplehip. I'm tuning in to Dubble Disciplehip. I'm Jason Wheelen, and I hope you'll join us Jason Wheelen, and I hope you'll join us Jason Wheelen, and I hope you'll join us again next week. again next week. again next week. [Music]