E449 The Invitation to Confession with Jamin Goggin

[Music] [Music] This is a Saddleach Church podcast. This is a Saddleach Church podcast. This is a Saddleach Church podcast. >> The act of confessing our sins to one >> The act of confessing our sins to one >> The act of confessing our sins to one another is a graced invitation to another is a graced invitation to another is a graced invitation to practice the way of faith, hope, and practice the way of faith, hope, and practice the way of faith, hope, and love. The soul tempted to despair love. The soul tempted to despair love. The soul tempted to despair will be particularly allergic to will be particularly allergic to will be particularly allergic to ecclesial confession, but it is here ecclesial confession, but it is here ecclesial confession, but it is here that they will find great remedy for that they will find great remedy for that they will find great remedy for their agonizing condition. their agonizing condition. their agonizing condition. For in confessing their sins to one For in confessing their sins to one For in confessing their sins to one another, they are heard with the faith another, they are heard with the faith another, they are heard with the faith of fellow saints. They are encouraged by of fellow saints. They are encouraged by of fellow saints. They are encouraged by the hope of fellow pilgrims, and they the hope of fellow pilgrims, and they the hope of fellow pilgrims, and they are loved with the charity of brothers are loved with the charity of brothers are loved with the charity of brothers and sisters. and sisters. and sisters. An excerpt from pastoral confessions. An excerpt from pastoral confessions. An excerpt from pastoral confessions. Confession is not an easy topic, but it Confession is not an easy topic, but it Confession is not an easy topic, but it is a healthy one. Often times when the is a healthy one. Often times when the is a healthy one. Often times when the topic of confession is brought up, I topic of confession is brought up, I topic of confession is brought up, I think it's met with one of two think it's met with one of two think it's met with one of two responses. Uh first, it could be, "Oh, responses. Uh first, it could be, "Oh, responses. Uh first, it could be, "Oh, my walls are now up and I am tuning out my walls are now up and I am tuning out my walls are now up and I am tuning out what is being talked about. I do not what is being talked about. I do not what is being talked about. I do not want to engage with this anymore."

want to engage with this anymore." want to engage with this anymore." Uh the second uh option that I think is Uh the second uh option that I think is Uh the second uh option that I think is uh somewhat common says, "Oh, this is so uh somewhat common says, "Oh, this is so uh somewhat common says, "Oh, this is so true and so important and a lot of other true and so important and a lot of other true and so important and a lot of other people have things that they need to people have things that they need to people have things that they need to confess." confess." confess." But like I said, confession is healthy But like I said, confession is healthy But like I said, confession is healthy and even more than that, confession is and even more than that, confession is and even more than that, confession is necessary. necessary. necessary. Now, I may be biased, but one of the Now, I may be biased, but one of the Now, I may be biased, but one of the best books on confession best books on confession best books on confession releases one week from today and is releases one week from today and is releases one week from today and is available now for pre-order. And that available now for pre-order. And that available now for pre-order. And that book is book is book is a pastoral confessions written by my a pastoral confessions written by my a pastoral confessions written by my friend Jamon Goagan. Jamon has been on friend Jamon Goagan. Jamon has been on friend Jamon Goagan. Jamon has been on this podcast a few times in the past. He this podcast a few times in the past. He this podcast a few times in the past. He is an associate professor at Talbet is an associate professor at Talbet is an associate professor at Talbet School of Theology. He is the director School of Theology. He is the director School of Theology. He is the director of the healthy pastor initiative for of the healthy pastor initiative for of the healthy pastor initiative for finishing the task and he just is one of finishing the task and he just is one of finishing the task and he just is one of the most thoughtful the most thoughtful the most thoughtful theologians that I know. In today's theologians that I know. In today's theologians that I know. In today's conversation, Jamon and I talk about conversation, Jamon and I talk about conversation, Jamon and I talk about what led him to write about confession.

what led him to write about confession. what led him to write about confession. We talk about the real human struggles We talk about the real human struggles We talk about the real human struggles with sin and confession. We we talk with sin and confession. We we talk with sin and confession. We we talk about some ways that we can more about some ways that we can more about some ways that we can more normalize confession. normalize confession. normalize confession. And you know, we talk about so much And you know, we talk about so much And you know, we talk about so much more. You can find a link to pre-order more. You can find a link to pre-order more. You can find a link to pre-order Pastoral Confession in the show notes. Pastoral Confession in the show notes. Pastoral Confession in the show notes. And I I should point out, and we do talk And I I should point out, and we do talk And I I should point out, and we do talk about this in the conversation, this about this in the conversation, this about this in the conversation, this book, uh, it was primarily written to book, uh, it was primarily written to book, uh, it was primarily written to pastors. That's why it's called pastoral pastors. That's why it's called pastoral pastors. That's why it's called pastoral confessions. It's talking about Jamon's confessions. It's talking about Jamon's confessions. It's talking about Jamon's own experience, and he opens up his own own experience, and he opens up his own own experience, and he opens up his own confessions. confessions. confessions. Um but it it and it's written to the Um but it it and it's written to the Um but it it and it's written to the pastorate. Um but its thoughts and the pastorate. Um but its thoughts and the pastorate. Um but its thoughts and the themes of confession, all of these themes of confession, all of these themes of confession, all of these truths that he gets into in the book are truths that he gets into in the book are truths that he gets into in the book are so important for all of us. Uh so I hope so important for all of us. Uh so I hope so important for all of us. Uh so I hope that doesn't steer you away from it. that doesn't steer you away from it. that doesn't steer you away from it. Again, I encourage you all to check out Again, I encourage you all to check out Again, I encourage you all to check out this uh book because it is so incredibly this uh book because it is so incredibly this uh book because it is so incredibly rich and encouraging rich and encouraging rich and encouraging and uh just a work that continues to and uh just a work that continues to and uh just a work that continues to point people back into the depths of point people back into the depths of point people back into the depths of their relationship with God. So now their relationship with God. So now their relationship with God. So now without further ado, my conversation without further ado, my conversation without further ado, my conversation with Jamon Goagan.

[Music] [Music] All right, Jamon, welcome back. It's great right, Jamon, welcome back. It's great to see you. I had you on I think it was to see you. I had you on I think it was to see you. I had you on I think it was almost a year ago since we're releasing almost a year ago since we're releasing almost a year ago since we're releasing this that that you would join me. So, this that that you would join me. So, this that that you would join me. So, thanks for being back now to talk about thanks for being back now to talk about thanks for being back now to talk about your new book, A Pastoral Confession. your new book, A Pastoral Confession. your new book, A Pastoral Confession. I'm I'm thrilled to get to talk with you I'm I'm thrilled to get to talk with you I'm I'm thrilled to get to talk with you about it. about it. about it. >> Oh, thanks, brother. Well, it's a joy to >> Oh, thanks, brother. Well, it's a joy to >> Oh, thanks, brother. Well, it's a joy to be with you as a friend. And if that be with you as a friend. And if that be with you as a friend. And if that means we get to hang out as friends and means we get to hang out as friends and means we get to hang out as friends and record a podcast, record a podcast, record a podcast, >> all the better. >> all the better. >> all the better. >> Double the blessing. all the better. >> Double the blessing. all the better. >> Double the blessing. all the better. >> Okay. So, so we're not just talking >> Okay. So, so we're not just talking >> Okay. So, so we're not just talking about, you know, a book. We're talking about, you know, a book. We're talking about, you know, a book. We're talking about a very deep book that is really about a very deep book that is really about a very deep book that is really hitting at an incredibly important hitting at an incredibly important hitting at an incredibly important >> uh sometimes difficult like rich topic >> uh sometimes difficult like rich topic >> uh sometimes difficult like rich topic of confession. So, I wanted to, you of confession. So, I wanted to, you of confession. So, I wanted to, you know, start by just say asking because know, start by just say asking because know, start by just say asking because this is clearly a deeply personal book. this is clearly a deeply personal book. this is clearly a deeply personal book. There's so much of it that you are There's so much of it that you are There's so much of it that you are deeply relating to yourself in your own deeply relating to yourself in your own deeply relating to yourself in your own ministry. It's not something you shy ministry. It's not something you shy ministry. It's not something you shy away from in the book. So, I just wanted away from in the book. So, I just wanted away from in the book. So, I just wanted to get a sense from you of what was this to get a sense from you of what was this to get a sense from you of what was this book born out of in you? What was it book born out of in you? What was it book born out of in you? What was it that was stirring in your soul that was stirring in your soul that was stirring in your soul >> that said like I need to put something >> that said like I need to put something >> that said like I need to put something out about this topic?

out about this topic? out about this topic? >> Yeah, that's so good. Great question. I >> Yeah, that's so good. Great question. I >> Yeah, that's so good. Great question. I yeah this new book pastoral confessions yeah this new book pastoral confessions yeah this new book pastoral confessions I in many ways it's a it's a reflection I in many ways it's a it's a reflection I in many ways it's a it's a reflection a prayerful reflection on 20 years of a prayerful reflection on 20 years of a prayerful reflection on 20 years of pastoral ministry pastoral ministry pastoral ministry >> um and so even the writing process >> um and so even the writing process >> um and so even the writing process I I think took longer than perhaps a I I think took longer than perhaps a I I think took longer than perhaps a normal normal normal >> it's a lot of sitting with it >> it's a lot of sitting with it >> it's a lot of sitting with it >> yeah because it's an occasion of prayer >> yeah because it's an occasion of prayer >> yeah because it's an occasion of prayer and it's an occasion of of actually and it's an occasion of of actually and it's an occasion of of actually confessing and doing that through the confessing and doing that through the confessing and doing that through the writing process, but it brought me back writing process, but it brought me back writing process, but it brought me back to, you know, experiences, stories, to, you know, experiences, stories, to, you know, experiences, stories, moments in that kind of pastoral journey moments in that kind of pastoral journey moments in that kind of pastoral journey that I haven't thought about for some that I haven't thought about for some that I haven't thought about for some time. And then, of course, there's other time. And then, of course, there's other time. And then, of course, there's other things that surface that I have thought things that surface that I have thought things that surface that I have thought about that are maybe more more fresh. about that are maybe more more fresh. about that are maybe more more fresh. But I think But I think But I think >> probably since first publishing my last >> probably since first publishing my last >> probably since first publishing my last book, The Way of the Dragon or the Way book, The Way of the Dragon or the Way book, The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb, which was first released in of the Lamb, which was first released in of the Lamb, which was first released in 2017, 2017, 2017, >> Yeah. I found myself >> Yeah. I found myself >> Yeah. I found myself in a lot of conversations with fellow in a lot of conversations with fellow in a lot of conversations with fellow pastors.

pastors. pastors. Um that book uh kind of addressed the Um that book uh kind of addressed the Um that book uh kind of addressed the question of power in ministry and how we question of power in ministry and how we question of power in ministry and how we properly kind of think about power in properly kind of think about power in properly kind of think about power in the life of the church and kind of the life of the church and kind of the life of the church and kind of contrasting worldly power with kingdom contrasting worldly power with kingdom contrasting worldly power with kingdom power. And so I anyway, those who've power. And so I anyway, those who've power. And so I anyway, those who've read the book or those that I've maybe read the book or those that I've maybe read the book or those that I've maybe spoken in different settings and and who spoken in different settings and and who spoken in different settings and and who interact with the content, fellow interact with the content, fellow interact with the content, fellow pastors, ministry leaders, um I've just pastors, ministry leaders, um I've just pastors, ministry leaders, um I've just gotten in many conversations with those gotten in many conversations with those gotten in many conversations with those folks since writing that book about folks since writing that book about folks since writing that book about temptations of power in ministry. And temptations of power in ministry. And temptations of power in ministry. And what I found, at least in a majority of what I found, at least in a majority of what I found, at least in a majority of those conversations, is pastors and those conversations, is pastors and those conversations, is pastors and ministry leaders who have a real desire ministry leaders who have a real desire ministry leaders who have a real desire to be faithful in ministry. Mhm. to be faithful in ministry. Mhm. to be faithful in ministry. Mhm. >> Um and who recognize >> Um and who recognize >> Um and who recognize um to use the language here of James 3, um to use the language here of James 3, um to use the language here of James 3, selfish ambition and jealousy selfish ambition and jealousy selfish ambition and jealousy >> are are are there they're lurking in >> are are are there they're lurking in >> are are are there they're lurking in their heart and their heart and their heart and >> they're honest about that. They're >> they're honest about that. They're >> they're honest about that. They're honest in conversation with me about honest in conversation with me about honest in conversation with me about that that that >> and they find themselves not quite >> and they find themselves not quite >> and they find themselves not quite knowing how to navigate that and what knowing how to navigate that and what knowing how to navigate that and what that means. And I think they often that means. And I think they often that means. And I think they often struggle to know what to do now with the struggle to know what to do now with the struggle to know what to do now with the sin they're seeing. Feeling like, sin they're seeing. Feeling like, sin they're seeing. Feeling like, yes, I I I need to acknowledge this, but yes, I I I need to acknowledge this, but yes, I I I need to acknowledge this, but I I need to be really careful about I I need to be really careful about I I need to be really careful about that, and maybe it's actually best just that, and maybe it's actually best just that, and maybe it's actually best just to keep it hidden because my church to keep it hidden because my church to keep it hidden because my church expects me to be a certain kind of expects me to be a certain kind of expects me to be a certain kind of leader, a certain kind of pastor, and I leader, a certain kind of pastor, and I leader, a certain kind of pastor, and I don't want to cause someone else to don't want to cause someone else to don't want to cause someone else to stumble, or I don't want to harm the stumble, or I don't want to harm the stumble, or I don't want to harm the church's reputation. And so there's

church's reputation. And so there's church's reputation. And so there's there's almost this kind of um this there's almost this kind of um this there's almost this kind of um this belief up and running that often isn't belief up and running that often isn't belief up and running that often isn't explicitly named, but is there that explicitly named, but is there that explicitly named, but is there that actually in order to be faithful, I just actually in order to be faithful, I just actually in order to be faithful, I just have to kind of keep this stuff hidden have to kind of keep this stuff hidden have to kind of keep this stuff hidden and maybe I kind of have to deal with and maybe I kind of have to deal with and maybe I kind of have to deal with with it with the Lord quietly. Um try my with it with the Lord quietly. Um try my with it with the Lord quietly. Um try my best to not be that way anymore or best to not be that way anymore or best to not be that way anymore or something like that. Um, and so just I something like that. Um, and so just I something like that. Um, and so just I think those conversations over the years think those conversations over the years think those conversations over the years really provoked in my heart a desire to really provoked in my heart a desire to really provoked in my heart a desire to offer a better way, a gospel way. offer a better way, a gospel way. offer a better way, a gospel way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> For those pastors who find themselves >> For those pastors who find themselves >> For those pastors who find themselves wrestling with that. I I think also wrestling with that. I I think also wrestling with that. I I think also since writing the way of the dragon, the since writing the way of the dragon, the since writing the way of the dragon, the way of the lamb, the evangelical church way of the lamb, the evangelical church way of the lamb, the evangelical church in North America has and this is like a in North America has and this is like a in North America has and this is like a very non-controversial statement I think very non-controversial statement I think very non-controversial statement I think at this point has experienced really at this point has experienced really at this point has experienced really what I would call a divine reckoning. what I would call a divine reckoning. what I would call a divine reckoning. Um, I'm not interested in naming names Um, I'm not interested in naming names Um, I'm not interested in naming names at all, but I I think most listeners at all, but I I think most listeners at all, but I I think most listeners would recognize over the last eight would recognize over the last eight would recognize over the last eight years or so that we have witnessed years or so that we have witnessed years or so that we have witnessed countless countless countless pastors, ministry leaders pastors, ministry leaders pastors, ministry leaders um um um exposed their sin, expose them being exposed their sin, expose them being exposed their sin, expose them being disqualified in ministry due to hidden disqualified in ministry due to hidden disqualified in ministry due to hidden sin that was revealed. And you know, sin that was revealed. And you know, sin that was revealed. And you know, many of those stories have made kind of many of those stories have made kind of many of those stories have made kind of Christian news headlines. many of them Christian news headlines. many of them Christian news headlines. many of them just made general news headlines. And just made general news headlines. And just made general news headlines. And beyond that, there's the stories that beyond that, there's the stories that beyond that, there's the stories that probably anyone who's listening just probably anyone who's listening just probably anyone who's listening just know in their own communities, in their know in their own communities, in their know in their own communities, in their own context that maybe don't make the own context that maybe don't make the own context that maybe don't make the headlines.

headlines. headlines. >> And I think this has been a work of the >> And I think this has been a work of the >> And I think this has been a work of the Lord actually Lord actually Lord actually >> um to cleanse >> um to cleanse >> um to cleanse his church um to bring renewal, to bring his church um to bring renewal, to bring his church um to bring renewal, to bring reformation. reformation. reformation. >> Yeah. And I think the church has been >> Yeah. And I think the church has been >> Yeah. And I think the church has been searching for answers searching for answers searching for answers to this reckoning, this kind of to this reckoning, this kind of to this reckoning, this kind of revelation that all is not well. Um revelation that all is not well. Um revelation that all is not well. Um perhaps in our leaders, but also in us. perhaps in our leaders, but also in us. perhaps in our leaders, but also in us. These are these are leaders we wanted. These are these are leaders we wanted. These are these are leaders we wanted. These were people we revered. Perhaps These were people we revered. Perhaps These were people we revered. Perhaps even the very vices that were their even the very vices that were their even the very vices that were their downfall were things we celebrated if downfall were things we celebrated if downfall were things we celebrated if we're really honest for a long period of we're really honest for a long period of we're really honest for a long period of time. Right? And so what I have found is time. Right? And so what I have found is time. Right? And so what I have found is often times the move to solutions goes often times the move to solutions goes often times the move to solutions goes quickly to questions of model quickly to questions of model quickly to questions of model structure structure structure uh systems uh systems uh systems maybe even identifying right types of maybe even identifying right types of maybe even identifying right types of leaders by personality or something like leaders by personality or something like leaders by personality or something like this. Mhm. this. Mhm. this. Mhm. >> And and so I I think that observing that >> And and so I I think that observing that >> And and so I I think that observing that conversation conversation conversation writ large in the church and even just writ large in the church and even just writ large in the church and even just interpersonally among fellow pastors and interpersonally among fellow pastors and interpersonally among fellow pastors and people I know who are in the evangelical people I know who are in the evangelical people I know who are in the evangelical church. Observing the way that church. Observing the way that church. Observing the way that conversation has gone also really conversation has gone also really conversation has gone also really stirred in me a desire to say maybe stirred in me a desire to say maybe stirred in me a desire to say maybe maybe we're skipping something here.

maybe we're skipping something here. maybe we're skipping something here. Maybe we're we're missing actually a Maybe we're we're missing actually a Maybe we're we're missing actually a first primary step in response to what first primary step in response to what first primary step in response to what I'm calling a divine reckoning. And so I I'm calling a divine reckoning. And so I I'm calling a divine reckoning. And so I I I guess I would just say, Jason, that I I guess I would just say, Jason, that I I guess I would just say, Jason, that in both cases, pastors I know, this in both cases, pastors I know, this in both cases, pastors I know, this broader church conversation, broader church conversation, broader church conversation, >> I find that we often skip over the first >> I find that we often skip over the first >> I find that we often skip over the first step of actual renewal and reformation, step of actual renewal and reformation, step of actual renewal and reformation, which I would argue is confession. And I which I would argue is confession. And I which I would argue is confession. And I think time and again in scripture, think time and again in scripture, think time and again in scripture, >> and again, I think most listeners would >> and again, I think most listeners would >> and again, I think most listeners would would recognize this pretty quickly. If would recognize this pretty quickly. If would recognize this pretty quickly. If you think about the prophets here alone, you think about the prophets here alone, you think about the prophets here alone, this will this will, you know, bells this will this will, you know, bells this will this will, you know, bells will start going off. But when God will start going off. But when God will start going off. But when God renders a judgment of his people, renders a judgment of his people, renders a judgment of his people, when when when all is not well among his when when when all is not well among his when when when all is not well among his flock and there's a divine reckoning of flock and there's a divine reckoning of flock and there's a divine reckoning of that, the first and abiding response that, the first and abiding response that, the first and abiding response that God's people are called to is that God's people are called to is that God's people are called to is repentance, is confession. repentance, is confession. repentance, is confession. >> And so I think in large part, I believe >> And so I think in large part, I believe >> And so I think in large part, I believe this book represents this book represents this book represents my convictions about that that that God, my convictions about that that that God, my convictions about that that that God, this is a work God is doing. God is this is a work God is doing. God is this is a work God is doing. God is calling us as a church and as pastors calling us as a church and as pastors calling us as a church and as pastors and leaders to recognize the work he's and leaders to recognize the work he's and leaders to recognize the work he's doing. And and the first response of our doing. And and the first response of our doing. And and the first response of our hearts ought to be repentance or hearts ought to be repentance or hearts ought to be repentance or confession. I think in light of that, confession. I think in light of that, confession. I think in light of that, the right way to start that conversation the right way to start that conversation the right way to start that conversation is to make my own confession and to is to make my own confession and to is to make my own confession and to repent, right? To not to not write a repent, right? To not to not write a repent, right? To not to not write a book about everyone else's sin or the book about everyone else's sin or the book about everyone else's sin or the sins I see out there. And then Jesus has sins I see out there. And then Jesus has sins I see out there. And then Jesus has something to say about that.

something to say about that. something to say about that. >> Yeah. log in your own eye, speck in >> Yeah. log in your own eye, speck in >> Yeah. log in your own eye, speck in another. Right? In other words, see the another. Right? In other words, see the another. Right? In other words, see the log in my own eye first. And I think if log in my own eye first. And I think if log in my own eye first. And I think if I'm going to invite fellow pastors or I'm going to invite fellow pastors or I'm going to invite fellow pastors or I'm going to invite the church, the body I'm going to invite the church, the body I'm going to invite the church, the body of Christ, fellow members of the kind of of Christ, fellow members of the kind of of Christ, fellow members of the kind of evangelical church that I've been a part evangelical church that I've been a part evangelical church that I've been a part of for so many years in North America, of for so many years in North America, of for so many years in North America, if I'm going to invite us to confess our if I'm going to invite us to confess our if I'm going to invite us to confess our sins, then I I think I need to be sins, then I I think I need to be sins, then I I think I need to be willing to go first. I think that's the willing to go first. I think that's the willing to go first. I think that's the faithful first step is to say, I'm going faithful first step is to say, I'm going faithful first step is to say, I'm going to go first. So, I'm going to start the to go first. So, I'm going to start the to go first. So, I'm going to start the conversation trusting that God's word is conversation trusting that God's word is conversation trusting that God's word is true. If we confess our sins to one true. If we confess our sins to one true. If we confess our sins to one another, we will be healed. another, we will be healed. another, we will be healed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I want to begin that confess our >> And I want to begin that confess our >> And I want to begin that confess our sins to one another exchange through the sins to one another exchange through the sins to one another exchange through the writing. So, the very last thing I'll writing. So, the very last thing I'll writing. So, the very last thing I'll say here and is just and then this is say here and is just and then this is say here and is just and then this is really a secondary note, but I think it really a secondary note, but I think it really a secondary note, but I think it is still worth maybe highlighting. is still worth maybe highlighting. is still worth maybe highlighting. >> Mhm. I think while there has been a lot >> Mhm. I think while there has been a lot >> Mhm. I think while there has been a lot of discussion in recent years about what of discussion in recent years about what of discussion in recent years about what to do about the problems of power and to do about the problems of power and to do about the problems of power and the church and fallen leaders and um the the church and fallen leaders and um the the church and fallen leaders and um the sin that we now see that surprises us sin that we now see that surprises us sin that we now see that surprises us among those we expected perhaps uh a among those we expected perhaps uh a among those we expected perhaps uh a certain kind of holy life or ethical certain kind of holy life or ethical certain kind of holy life or ethical life from those we were looking to as life from those we were looking to as life from those we were looking to as examples. I I think there has been quite examples. I I think there has been quite examples. I I think there has been quite a bit of conversation about that in the a bit of conversation about that in the a bit of conversation about that in the last couple years actually. Um, so I last couple years actually. Um, so I last couple years actually. Um, so I don't want to pretend like I'm just don't want to pretend like I'm just don't want to pretend like I'm just starting that conversation, but I I I do starting that conversation, but I I I do starting that conversation, but I I I do find that often we turn rather quickly find that often we turn rather quickly find that often we turn rather quickly or primarily or primarily or primarily to psychological and sociological

to psychological and sociological to psychological and sociological language to explain what's going on. And language to explain what's going on. And language to explain what's going on. And so so so just think with me for a minute about just think with me for a minute about just think with me for a minute about kind of popular vernacular kind of popular vernacular kind of popular vernacular that gets used, right? That boy, they're that gets used, right? That boy, they're that gets used, right? That boy, they're a toxic leader. a toxic leader. a toxic leader. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> They're a narcissist. >> They're a narcissist. >> They're a narcissist. um spiritual abuse. um spiritual abuse. um spiritual abuse. >> Um now I I want to be really clear here. >> Um now I I want to be really clear here. >> Um now I I want to be really clear here. This is not to say this language can't This is not to say this language can't This is not to say this language can't be helpful. I think I think it can when be helpful. I think I think it can when be helpful. I think I think it can when rightly applied rightly unders. Yeah. rightly applied rightly unders. Yeah. rightly applied rightly unders. Yeah. That it can't be true. That it can't be That it can't be true. That it can't be That it can't be true. That it can't be helpful. Yes, of course it can be true. helpful. Yes, of course it can be true. helpful. Yes, of course it can be true. And I think it can be helpful when And I think it can be helpful when And I think it can be helpful when rightly applied and rightly understood. rightly applied and rightly understood. rightly applied and rightly understood. >> But I think actually it ought to be the >> But I think actually it ought to be the >> But I think actually it ought to be the kind of language that for us as kind of language that for us as kind of language that for us as Christians is kind of secondary or Christians is kind of secondary or Christians is kind of secondary or supplementary. supplementary. supplementary. >> That our primary language is the >> That our primary language is the >> That our primary language is the biblical idiom. Yeah. biblical idiom. Yeah. biblical idiom. Yeah. >> And and in support of that, the kind of >> And and in support of that, the kind of >> And and in support of that, the kind of language of Christian tradition and language of Christian tradition and language of Christian tradition and Christian history that there's a way to Christian history that there's a way to Christian history that there's a way to speak Christianly first about these speak Christianly first about these speak Christianly first about these things. things. things. >> And the reason why I have some >> And the reason why I have some >> And the reason why I have some convictions about that is I think if we convictions about that is I think if we convictions about that is I think if we fail to talk, for example, about our fail to talk, for example, about our fail to talk, for example, about our need for confession, which is biblical need for confession, which is biblical need for confession, which is biblical Christian language, we fail to talk Christian language, we fail to talk Christian language, we fail to talk about sin.

about sin. about sin. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And if we fail to talk about sin, we're >> And if we fail to talk about sin, we're >> And if we fail to talk about sin, we're going to fail to talk about grace. M going to fail to talk about grace. M going to fail to talk about grace. M >> and if we fail to talk about grace, >> and if we fail to talk about grace, >> and if we fail to talk about grace, we're going to fail to talk about God. we're going to fail to talk about God. we're going to fail to talk about God. >> And we can have a whole conversation >> And we can have a whole conversation >> And we can have a whole conversation about toxic leadership and what to do about toxic leadership and what to do about toxic leadership and what to do about it. And I've been a part of these about it. And I've been a part of these about it. And I've been a part of these conversations myself, so I know I'm I'm conversations myself, so I know I'm I'm conversations myself, so I know I'm I'm confessing here. confessing here. confessing here. >> And actually never get around to >> And actually never get around to >> And actually never get around to specifying what the sin is. Like is specifying what the sin is. Like is specifying what the sin is. Like is being a toxic leader sinful? being a toxic leader sinful? being a toxic leader sinful? >> What is it? >> What is it? >> What is it? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Are you are you naming pride? Are you >> Are you are you naming pride? Are you >> Are you are you naming pride? Are you okay? Because that now we can talk about okay? Because that now we can talk about okay? Because that now we can talk about something that has a biblical reference something that has a biblical reference something that has a biblical reference that God actually says something about. that God actually says something about. that God actually says something about. And as Christians, we can do something And as Christians, we can do something And as Christians, we can do something Christianly about, which is Christianly about, which is Christianly about, which is >> repentance, confession, the receiving of >> repentance, confession, the receiving of >> repentance, confession, the receiving of the good news of the gospel and God's the good news of the gospel and God's the good news of the gospel and God's grace. So I'm trying also with this grace. So I'm trying also with this grace. So I'm trying also with this book, Pastoral Confessions, to kind of book, Pastoral Confessions, to kind of book, Pastoral Confessions, to kind of retrieve our primary language because I retrieve our primary language because I retrieve our primary language because I think we've actually lost it a bit. And think we've actually lost it a bit. And think we've actually lost it a bit. And so we experience these things in the so we experience these things in the so we experience these things in the church or even in our own lives church or even in our own lives church or even in our own lives >> and we don't quite know how to even name >> and we don't quite know how to even name >> and we don't quite know how to even name them, what they are. And I think we've them, what they are. And I think we've them, what they are. And I think we've lost a bit of the kind of language of lost a bit of the kind of language of lost a bit of the kind of language of faith, which is the language of prayer faith, which is the language of prayer faith, which is the language of prayer for these things. So, for these things. So, for these things. So, >> all to say, I I hope also it's not a no >> all to say, I I hope also it's not a no >> all to say, I I hope also it's not a no to some of those other categories.

to some of those other categories. to some of those other categories. Again, certainly they can be true and Again, certainly they can be true and Again, certainly they can be true and can be helpful, can be helpful, can be helpful, >> but it's an invitation to return to our >> but it's an invitation to return to our >> but it's an invitation to return to our kind of primary language. kind of primary language. kind of primary language. >> Yeah. I'm so glad that you mentioned >> Yeah. I'm so glad that you mentioned >> Yeah. I'm so glad that you mentioned grace in there. I've been on this grace grace in there. I've been on this grace grace in there. I've been on this grace kick lately. I've talked about it on kick lately. I've talked about it on kick lately. I've talked about it on this podcast a few times and I'm just this podcast a few times and I'm just this podcast a few times and I'm just like I'm seeing things through this like I'm seeing things through this like I'm seeing things through this grace lens right now and so I'm so glad grace lens right now and so I'm so glad grace lens right now and so I'm so glad that you brought that up because it is that you brought that up because it is that you brought that up because it is is so true. If I can frame it if if I is so true. If I can frame it if if I is so true. If I can frame it if if I can almost like can almost like can almost like >> boil down the essence of what you are >> boil down the essence of what you are >> boil down the essence of what you are getting at with this book cuz this getting at with this book cuz this getting at with this book cuz this phrase kept going through my mind and I phrase kept going through my mind and I phrase kept going through my mind and I forget where I first heard it. It was forget where I first heard it. It was forget where I first heard it. It was either through Pastor Rake or Pastor either through Pastor Rake or Pastor either through Pastor Rake or Pastor Buddy or whoever Buddy or whoever Buddy or whoever >> but it was the if we had more confession >> but it was the if we had more confession >> but it was the if we had more confession of temptation we would have less of temptation we would have less of temptation we would have less confession of sin. confession of sin. confession of sin. M M M >> is this is and we say that in the terms >> is this is and we say that in the terms >> is this is and we say that in the terms of a general public of being able to you of a general public of being able to you of a general public of being able to you know as as lay people as as brothers and know as as lay people as as brothers and know as as lay people as as brothers and sisters to be able to say like you know sisters to be able to say like you know sisters to be able to say like you know find people who you trust who you can be find people who you trust who you can be find people who you trust who you can be accountable to to talk about even your accountable to to talk about even your accountable to to talk about even your temptations temptations temptations because then it's it's it's more likely because then it's it's it's more likely because then it's it's it's more likely to stop it on the path to sin.

to stop it on the path to sin. to stop it on the path to sin. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And where where as a a a temptation is >> And where where as a a a temptation is >> And where where as a a a temptation is not sin itself. not sin itself. not sin itself. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. But what but what you what you were But what but what you what you were But what but what you what you were getting at through this book is getting at through this book is getting at through this book is >> that should be available too on the a >> that should be available too on the a >> that should be available too on the a pastoral level on a level where of you pastoral level on a level where of you pastoral level on a level where of you have these group of people who have have these group of people who have have these group of people who have entered into vocational entered into vocational entered into vocational pastoral ministry pastoral ministry pastoral ministry >> and often feel like they have to live >> and often feel like they have to live >> and often feel like they have to live above reproach above reproach above reproach >> be put on a pedestal of a kind >> be put on a pedestal of a kind >> be put on a pedestal of a kind >> and have to present themselves in a way >> and have to present themselves in a way >> and have to present themselves in a way of like follow me as I follow of like follow me as I follow of like follow me as I follow Christ like like a polyan example of Christ like like a polyan example of Christ like like a polyan example of this this this >> and that's a tough place to be because >> and that's a tough place to be because >> and that's a tough place to be because then even the confession of temptation then even the confession of temptation then even the confession of temptation >> is becomes is that is that too much am I >> is becomes is that is that too much am I >> is becomes is that is that too much am I am I starting to to make people think am I starting to to make people think am I starting to to make people think less of me if I'm confessing even less of me if I'm confessing even less of me if I'm confessing even temptation and so if there's no outlet temptation and so if there's no outlet temptation and so if there's no outlet for that confession of temptation then for that confession of temptation then for that confession of temptation then it leads more likely or you know there's it leads more likely or you know there's it leads more likely or you know there's a more open path a more open path a more open path >> to then sin and then that becomes an >> to then sin and then that becomes an >> to then sin and then that becomes an even harder place of okay now I'm not even harder place of okay now I'm not even harder place of okay now I'm not just even confessing temptation I'm just even confessing temptation I'm just even confessing temptation I'm confessing sin it's a whole different confessing sin it's a whole different confessing sin it's a whole different you know it just leads on you know it just leads on you know it just leads on >> and what you're trying to get at is hey >> and what you're trying to get at is hey >> and what you're trying to get at is hey let's get back to this heart where we let's get back to this heart where we let's get back to this heart where we can be a community can be a community can be a community >> of people >> of people >> of people >> that don't you know hide >> that don't you know hide >> that don't you know hide >> from our sin hide from the things that >> from our sin hide from the things that >> from our sin hide from the things that we fall away from because if we enter if we fall away from because if we enter if we fall away from because if we enter if we begin with this general playing field

we begin with this general playing field we begin with this general playing field of we all have sinned and fallen short of we all have sinned and fallen short of we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God of the glory of God of the glory of God >> yes >> yes >> yes >> on a daily basis. We are all in need of >> on a daily basis. We are all in need of >> on a daily basis. We are all in need of God's grace and mercies every day. Then God's grace and mercies every day. Then God's grace and mercies every day. Then we're just entering into this as people we're just entering into this as people we're just entering into this as people >> who struggle with the brokenness of >> who struggle with the brokenness of >> who struggle with the brokenness of life. life. life. >> And you have then the chance as a >> And you have then the chance as a >> And you have then the chance as a brother or sister to come along and say, brother or sister to come along and say, brother or sister to come along and say, "I I I I want to receive "I I I I want to receive "I I I I want to receive >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> your confession, hear my confession, and >> your confession, hear my confession, and >> your confession, hear my confession, and let's let's enter into this together. let's let's enter into this together. let's let's enter into this together. Let's give each other the grace that Let's give each other the grace that Let's give each other the grace that which God gives us and then we outpour which God gives us and then we outpour which God gives us and then we outpour that grace unto others that grace unto others that grace unto others >> and we will be closer for it. our >> and we will be closer for it. our >> and we will be closer for it. our relationship with God will be better for relationship with God will be better for relationship with God will be better for it it it >> and we will live into another day where >> and we will live into another day where >> and we will live into another day where we might have to confess something else we might have to confess something else we might have to confess something else and you know like and it just becomes and you know like and it just becomes and you know like and it just becomes this this this >> this really communal really triune in a >> this really communal really triune in a >> this really communal really triune in a sense of God us and brother and sister sense of God us and brother and sister sense of God us and brother and sister >> way of living and that is open to us but >> way of living and that is open to us but >> way of living and that is open to us but so often we are so afraid of shame so often we are so afraid of shame so often we are so afraid of shame >> so afraid of the vitriol or whatever it >> so afraid of the vitriol or whatever it >> so afraid of the vitriol or whatever it is that may come our way the attacks is that may come our way the attacks is that may come our way the attacks that may come our way for not living up that may come our way for not living up that may come our way for not living up to the standard of which other people to the standard of which other people to the standard of which other people put ourselves in and even a biblical put ourselves in and even a biblical put ourselves in and even a biblical standard that we will fall short of standard that we will fall short of standard that we will fall short of sometime like that's just because that's sometime like that's just because that's sometime like that's just because that's the nature of our sin the nature of our sin the nature of our sin >> and um that it creates this hiddenness >> and um that it creates this hiddenness >> and um that it creates this hiddenness it creates this dark culture you know it creates this dark culture you know it creates this dark culture you know this dark side this dark side this dark side >> um of us so I think I love that the goal

>> um of us so I think I love that the goal >> um of us so I think I love that the goal of this book is to say like friends of this book is to say like friends of this book is to say like friends let's just name what is happening. Let's let's just name what is happening. Let's let's just name what is happening. Let's name what is true. name what is true. name what is true. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And let's not be afraid to talk about >> And let's not be afraid to talk about >> And let's not be afraid to talk about it. it. it. >> Yes. Yeah. I think >> Yes. Yeah. I think >> Yes. Yeah. I think you've named several things there that you've named several things there that you've named several things there that are really important and maybe just two are really important and maybe just two are really important and maybe just two to to briefly reflect back about. Yeah. to to briefly reflect back about. Yeah. to to briefly reflect back about. Yeah. I think um there's a developmental I think um there's a developmental I think um there's a developmental reality to our life of sin, right? Um reality to our life of sin, right? Um reality to our life of sin, right? Um uh sin metastasizes. uh sin metastasizes. uh sin metastasizes. And so what what ends up for the pastor And so what what ends up for the pastor And so what what ends up for the pastor in particular, for example, being a in particular, for example, being a in particular, for example, being a disqualifying sin from the office, more disqualifying sin from the office, more disqualifying sin from the office, more more than likely the sin did not begin more than likely the sin did not begin more than likely the sin did not begin there. Yeah. Right. So if what if if the there. Yeah. Right. So if what if if the there. Yeah. Right. So if what if if the end of that story is adultery or an end of that story is adultery or an end of that story is adultery or an affair, well affair, well affair, well more than likely there's a story prior more than likely there's a story prior more than likely there's a story prior to that of years of potential to that of years of potential to that of years of potential pornography use pornography use pornography use >> and then prior to that of lustful >> and then prior to that of lustful >> and then prior to that of lustful fantasy or occasional flirtation or fantasy or occasional flirtation or fantasy or occasional flirtation or right um right um right um >> um fantasizing once again about high >> um fantasizing once again about high >> um fantasizing once again about high school girlfriend.

school girlfriend. school girlfriend. >> Sure. Uh so to your point >> Sure. Uh so to your point >> Sure. Uh so to your point um and then of course temptation you um and then of course temptation you um and then of course temptation you know we can have a whole conversation know we can have a whole conversation know we can have a whole conversation about that but I'm even there I'm naming about that but I'm even there I'm naming about that but I'm even there I'm naming sin all along the way but but sin has sin all along the way but but sin has sin all along the way but but sin has degrees of intensity of course severity degrees of intensity of course severity degrees of intensity of course severity >> and the effects and consequences in our >> and the effects and consequences in our >> and the effects and consequences in our lives and in the lives of others. And so lives and in the lives of others. And so lives and in the lives of others. And so would would would what would it look like for a pastor to what would it look like for a pastor to what would it look like for a pastor to have a conversation have a conversation have a conversation with God, of course, first and foremost, with God, of course, first and foremost, with God, of course, first and foremost, but also with a trusted other in their but also with a trusted other in their but also with a trusted other in their life, life, life, >> um about those early fantasies about the >> um about those early fantasies about the >> um about those early fantasies about the previous girlfriend from high school, previous girlfriend from high school, previous girlfriend from high school, right? Um or about right? Um or about right? Um or about >> the >> the >> the as it begins, the occasional temptation as it begins, the occasional temptation as it begins, the occasional temptation toward pornography to to your point, toward pornography to to your point, toward pornography to to your point, boy. boy. boy. But but having conversations there what But but having conversations there what But but having conversations there what that can save them from. that can save them from. that can save them from. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Years later >> Years later >> Years later >> as opposed to keeping that sen sin >> as opposed to keeping that sen sin >> as opposed to keeping that sen sin hidden and in the dark where it grows hidden and in the dark where it grows hidden and in the dark where it grows and metastasizes and and develops, and metastasizes and and develops, and metastasizes and and develops, right? Um right? Um right? Um >> and we we don't manage our sin well.

>> and we we don't manage our sin well. >> and we we don't manage our sin well. Um and if if sing gets left to our kind Um and if if sing gets left to our kind Um and if if sing gets left to our kind of homespun of homespun of homespun >> uh strategies of management and um >> uh strategies of management and um >> uh strategies of management and um yeah we we get ourselves into real yeah we we get ourselves into real yeah we we get ourselves into real trouble. So I I think yes and amen to trouble. So I I think yes and amen to trouble. So I I think yes and amen to that that first thing right confess that that first thing right confess that that first thing right confess before it's before it's before it's >> it's gone further. Confess early and >> it's gone further. Confess early and >> it's gone further. Confess early and confess often. Um I I think the other confess often. Um I I think the other confess often. Um I I think the other thing you've you've you've flagged there thing you've you've you've flagged there thing you've you've you've flagged there is I think really important. It it is is I think really important. It it is is I think really important. It it is true that pastors in particular are true that pastors in particular are true that pastors in particular are called to be above reproach. We look called to be above reproach. We look called to be above reproach. We look Titus and Timothy. We have two passages Titus and Timothy. We have two passages Titus and Timothy. We have two passages that are corresponding passages about that are corresponding passages about that are corresponding passages about pastoral qualifications. pastoral qualifications. pastoral qualifications. >> Literally says live a life above >> Literally says live a life above >> Literally says live a life above reproach. reproach. reproach. >> Yes. Absolutely. And I and I think that >> Yes. Absolutely. And I and I think that >> Yes. Absolutely. And I and I think that that line is repeated because both of that line is repeated because both of that line is repeated because both of the the lists there by the Apostle Paul the the lists there by the Apostle Paul the the lists there by the Apostle Paul are intended to be mutually descriptive are intended to be mutually descriptive are intended to be mutually descriptive of what that above reproach life looks of what that above reproach life looks of what that above reproach life looks like. And I think what that means is like. And I think what that means is like. And I think what that means is something like pastors are called to be something like pastors are called to be something like pastors are called to be mature in the faith such that they live mature in the faith such that they live mature in the faith such that they live lives that are uh distinguished and lives that are uh distinguished and lives that are uh distinguished and demonstrative of uh a life of love in demonstrative of uh a life of love in demonstrative of uh a life of love in Christ by the spirit. And that shows up Christ by the spirit. And that shows up Christ by the spirit. And that shows up in their lives, right? which is also why in their lives, right? which is also why in their lives, right? which is also why Paul's going to say, "Don't be a young Paul's going to say, "Don't be a young Paul's going to say, "Don't be a young convert. It's not just a matter of you convert. It's not just a matter of you convert. It's not just a matter of you don't know enough yet. It's about don't know enough yet. It's about don't know enough yet. It's about maturity in the faith. It's about maturity in the faith. It's about maturity in the faith. It's about growing in love." Um, and so I that growing in love." Um, and so I that growing in love." Um, and so I that that's true, but it but if what we do is that's true, but it but if what we do is that's true, but it but if what we do is kind of and I think this often happens.

kind of and I think this often happens. kind of and I think this often happens. I I I confess I think it's happened in I I I confess I think it's happened in I I I confess I think it's happened in my life as a pastor. If what we do is we my life as a pastor. If what we do is we my life as a pastor. If what we do is we kind of we read those texts a little bit kind of we read those texts a little bit kind of we read those texts a little bit maybe more through the lens of law maybe more through the lens of law maybe more through the lens of law rather than gospel. And we can really rather than gospel. And we can really rather than gospel. And we can really quickly read that to equal something quickly read that to equal something quickly read that to equal something like like like um perfection and um complete um perfection and um complete um perfection and um complete righteousness in all times and in all righteousness in all times and in all righteousness in all times and in all ways. And it's like well that that ways. And it's like well that that ways. And it's like well that that that's not possible. In fact to claim we that's not possible. In fact to claim we that's not possible. In fact to claim we are without sin is to not have the truth are without sin is to not have the truth are without sin is to not have the truth abide in us and to call God a liar. abide in us and to call God a liar. abide in us and to call God a liar. scripture says. So no, if if sinlessness scripture says. So no, if if sinlessness scripture says. So no, if if sinlessness was the qualification for the office, was the qualification for the office, was the qualification for the office, none would be found qualified. none would be found qualified. none would be found qualified. >> So yes, there there there is a bar, >> So yes, there there there is a bar, >> So yes, there there there is a bar, there is a standard. Yes, there are there is a standard. Yes, there are there is a standard. Yes, there are certain um uh ethical standards that if certain um uh ethical standards that if certain um uh ethical standards that if breached or crossed, I think are breached or crossed, I think are breached or crossed, I think are disqualifying from from ministry. disqualifying from from ministry. disqualifying from from ministry. >> But certainly the bar isn't do you have >> But certainly the bar isn't do you have >> But certainly the bar isn't do you have any sin? Yeah. any sin? Yeah. any sin? Yeah. >> Cuz if it were, no one would be >> Cuz if it were, no one would be >> Cuz if it were, no one would be qualified ever, right? Christ only call qualified ever, right? Christ only call qualified ever, right? Christ only call calls qualified sinners um to the calls qualified sinners um to the calls qualified sinners um to the office. And so I think yes, to your office. And so I think yes, to your office. And so I think yes, to your point, I think there's some work to be point, I think there's some work to be point, I think there's some work to be done there for us in remembering the done there for us in remembering the done there for us in remembering the gospel and in hearing yeah a call to a gospel and in hearing yeah a call to a gospel and in hearing yeah a call to a certain life for sure and a certain kind certain life for sure and a certain kind certain life for sure and a certain kind of character, but through the lens of of character, but through the lens of of character, but through the lens of the gospel, not through the gospel, not through the gospel, not through >> kind of law. And I think sadly what >> kind of law. And I think sadly what >> kind of law. And I think sadly what happens for many pastors in particular happens for many pastors in particular happens for many pastors in particular is they end up kind of they know what I is they end up kind of they know what I is they end up kind of they know what I just said to be true. They preach it all just said to be true. They preach it all just said to be true. They preach it all the time. Yeah.

the time. Yeah. the time. Yeah. >> But they end up kind of um well, I know >> But they end up kind of um well, I know >> But they end up kind of um well, I know I can't be sinless, but the next best I can't be sinless, but the next best I can't be sinless, but the next best thing is at least kind of pretending thing is at least kind of pretending thing is at least kind of pretending like I'm sinless. like I'm sinless. like I'm sinless. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And the church maybe kind of actually >> And the church maybe kind of actually >> And the church maybe kind of actually wants that from me, too. wants that from me, too. wants that from me, too. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um so we have this kind of unspoken >> Um so we have this kind of unspoken >> Um so we have this kind of unspoken agreement. We want you to be perfect. agreement. We want you to be perfect. agreement. We want you to be perfect. I'll pretend to be perfect. And I think I'll pretend to be perfect. And I think I'll pretend to be perfect. And I think boy, what a recipe for danger in a boy, what a recipe for danger in a boy, what a recipe for danger in a pastor's life. And and and now the pastor's life. And and and now the pastor's life. And and and now the motivation for that that first point you motivation for that that first point you motivation for that that first point you made, the motivation to keep sin made, the motivation to keep sin made, the motivation to keep sin concealed and hidden. And now the path concealed and hidden. And now the path concealed and hidden. And now the path I'm on, right? Dealing with my anger on I'm on, right? Dealing with my anger on I'm on, right? Dealing with my anger on my own, not even perhaps bringing it to my own, not even perhaps bringing it to my own, not even perhaps bringing it to the Lord. Certainly not inviting anyone the Lord. Certainly not inviting anyone the Lord. Certainly not inviting anyone else into that in my life. Well, what else into that in my life. Well, what else into that in my life. Well, what what that can cultivate over the course what that can cultivate over the course what that can cultivate over the course of 10, 20 years. Well, now now I'm in a of 10, 20 years. Well, now now I'm in a of 10, 20 years. Well, now now I'm in a place of real danger spiritually. And I place of real danger spiritually. And I place of real danger spiritually. And I and I put the church in a place of real and I put the church in a place of real and I put the church in a place of real danger spiritually. Yeah. As is true of danger spiritually. Yeah. As is true of danger spiritually. Yeah. As is true of any of our lives if our sin any of our lives if our sin any of our lives if our sin >> is left kind of contained and hidden. >> is left kind of contained and hidden. >> is left kind of contained and hidden. >> Well, and that's that's helpful because >> Well, and that's that's helpful because >> Well, and that's that's helpful because I did want to talk about how this book I did want to talk about how this book I did want to talk about how this book is called Pastoral Confessions. It's is called Pastoral Confessions. It's is called Pastoral Confessions. It's speaking towards a specific audience, speaking towards a specific audience, speaking towards a specific audience, but it doesn't have to just be for but it doesn't have to just be for but it doesn't have to just be for pastors. It is a book about the heart of pastors. It is a book about the heart of pastors. It is a book about the heart of confession in general. And then there's confession in general. And then there's confession in general. And then there's elements within each chapter that's elements within each chapter that's elements within each chapter that's talking about what this looks like as a talking about what this looks like as a talking about what this looks like as a pastor or in pastoral pastor or in pastoral pastor or in pastoral >> leadership. So, can you talk a little >> leadership. So, can you talk a little >> leadership. So, can you talk a little bit about how bit about how bit about how >> a lay person, how your how your average >> a lay person, how your how your average >> a lay person, how your how your average day Christian day Christian day Christian >> uh can pick up this book and engage with

>> uh can pick up this book and engage with >> uh can pick up this book and engage with it? it? it? >> Yeah. No, I thank you for asking that >> Yeah. No, I thank you for asking that >> Yeah. No, I thank you for asking that cuz that that certainly would be my cuz that that certainly would be my cuz that that certainly would be my hope. And in many ways, the reason why I hope. And in many ways, the reason why I hope. And in many ways, the reason why I point towards making pastoral confession point towards making pastoral confession point towards making pastoral confession is I am confessing these sins um in my is I am confessing these sins um in my is I am confessing these sins um in my own life. And that has been a large part own life. And that has been a large part own life. And that has been a large part of my life for the last 20 years. Um, of my life for the last 20 years. Um, of my life for the last 20 years. Um, and so it's a faithful way for me to and so it's a faithful way for me to and so it's a faithful way for me to reflect on how these things have shown reflect on how these things have shown reflect on how these things have shown up uniquely in my life. But I think up uniquely in my life. But I think up uniquely in my life. But I think there's two things I'd want to say here. there's two things I'd want to say here. there's two things I'd want to say here. One is just briefly first still to kind One is just briefly first still to kind One is just briefly first still to kind of that pastoral church reality. I do of that pastoral church reality. I do of that pastoral church reality. I do think for folks who have experience think for folks who have experience think for folks who have experience being sinned against in the church, being sinned against in the church, being sinned against in the church, which I would take it are uh many, which I would take it are uh many, which I would take it are uh many, right? Like I I I know as a pastor I've right? Like I I I know as a pastor I've right? Like I I I know as a pastor I've sinned against others. sinned against others. sinned against others. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Over the course of 20 years. My sin has >> Over the course of 20 years. My sin has >> Over the course of 20 years. My sin has affected other people in my church in affected other people in my church in affected other people in my church in ways I know. In ways I don't know. And I ways I know. In ways I don't know. And I ways I know. In ways I don't know. And I think um I think many people have been think um I think many people have been think um I think many people have been sinned against by ministry leaders, by sinned against by ministry leaders, by sinned against by ministry leaders, by pastors. pastors. pastors. >> And that can be really disorienting. >> And that can be really disorienting. >> And that can be really disorienting. Light of everything we've already talked Light of everything we've already talked Light of everything we've already talked about. I think the the ways in which I about. I think the the ways in which I about. I think the the ways in which I talk about how those sins do uniquely talk about how those sins do uniquely talk about how those sins do uniquely show up in the pastoral life and in life show up in the pastoral life and in life show up in the pastoral life and in life of ministry and that kind of vocation, I of ministry and that kind of vocation, I of ministry and that kind of vocation, I think will be helpful for folks. Not as think will be helpful for folks. Not as think will be helpful for folks. Not as a means of condemnation, but as a way to a means of condemnation, but as a way to a means of condemnation, but as a way to perhaps begin to clearly identify and perhaps begin to clearly identify and perhaps begin to clearly identify and articulate what actually did go wrong, articulate what actually did go wrong, articulate what actually did go wrong, what happened back there 20 years ago at what happened back there 20 years ago at what happened back there 20 years ago at that church I was at that I always felt that church I was at that I always felt that church I was at that I always felt like that was kind of crummy or I felt like that was kind of crummy or I felt like that was kind of crummy or I felt like I was mistreated or again, this is like I was mistreated or again, this is like I was mistreated or again, this is a return to some of what I said a return to some of what I said a return to some of what I said initially. we might struggle to find

initially. we might struggle to find initially. we might struggle to find language like what what was that thing language like what what was that thing language like what what was that thing that I felt like wasn't right about the that I felt like wasn't right about the that I felt like wasn't right about the way I was treated or related to and way I was treated or related to and way I was treated or related to and >> I would hope this would help folks move >> I would hope this would help folks move >> I would hope this would help folks move beyond maybe some of those glosses of it beyond maybe some of those glosses of it beyond maybe some of those glosses of it was toxic or they were unhealthy or that was toxic or they were unhealthy or that was toxic or they were unhealthy or that was wrong to be able to name the ways was wrong to be able to name the ways was wrong to be able to name the ways they were sinned against they were sinned against they were sinned against either so that they can perhaps actually either so that they can perhaps actually either so that they can perhaps actually faithfully pursue true faithfully pursue true faithfully pursue true and honest reconciliation and honest reconciliation and honest reconciliation if possible with another party if possible with another party if possible with another party where possible, seeking peace, but be where possible, seeking peace, but be where possible, seeking peace, but be able to speak able to speak able to speak >> concretely and specifically about what >> concretely and specifically about what >> concretely and specifically about what actually went wrong, but but beyond that actually went wrong, but but beyond that actually went wrong, but but beyond that to bring that truth before the Lord in to bring that truth before the Lord in to bring that truth before the Lord in their experience. Lord, this is what their experience. Lord, this is what their experience. Lord, this is what happened to me in the church and this happened to me in the church and this happened to me in the church and this was hurtful. And um th this pastor, this was hurtful. And um th this pastor, this was hurtful. And um th this pastor, this leader, this context, this environment, leader, this context, this environment, leader, this context, this environment, this community, I I I feel like, wow, this community, I I I feel like, wow, this community, I I I feel like, wow, the the anger that I experienced there the the anger that I experienced there the the anger that I experienced there was really hurtful and pain. And now I was really hurtful and pain. And now I was really hurtful and pain. And now I see that's what it was. It was see that's what it was. It was see that's what it was. It was unrighteous anger.

unrighteous anger. unrighteous anger. >> I I think that could be really helpful >> I I think that could be really helpful >> I I think that could be really helpful for folks. I I find many people for folks. I I find many people for folks. I I find many people experience these things in the church. experience these things in the church. experience these things in the church. Something not quite right about it. They Something not quite right about it. They Something not quite right about it. They don't know what to do about it. Maybe don't know what to do about it. Maybe don't know what to do about it. Maybe they end up leaving and they're hurt, they end up leaving and they're hurt, they end up leaving and they're hurt, but they still haven't quite processed but they still haven't quite processed but they still haven't quite processed through that and brought it to the Lord. through that and brought it to the Lord. through that and brought it to the Lord. and they still struggle to name what and they still struggle to name what and they still struggle to name what what was that. So that'd be the first what was that. So that'd be the first what was that. So that'd be the first thing I'd want to say. Moving beyond thing I'd want to say. Moving beyond thing I'd want to say. Moving beyond that, to your point, I outside of the that, to your point, I outside of the that, to your point, I outside of the context of church hurt, church wounds, context of church hurt, church wounds, context of church hurt, church wounds, and any of that conversation, I I would and any of that conversation, I I would and any of that conversation, I I would hope this is a book that invites all hope this is a book that invites all hope this is a book that invites all people into a life of knowing God's people into a life of knowing God's people into a life of knowing God's grace in places of sin and failure in grace in places of sin and failure in grace in places of sin and failure in their life. And as you mentioned, each their life. And as you mentioned, each their life. And as you mentioned, each chapter I walk through the seven deadly chapter I walk through the seven deadly chapter I walk through the seven deadly sins as they're classically termed in sins as they're classically termed in sins as they're classically termed in the book. And um really it's just kind the book. And um really it's just kind the book. And um really it's just kind of a taxonomy. It's an organizing of a taxonomy. It's an organizing of a taxonomy. It's an organizing principle for talking about all the principle for talking about all the principle for talking about all the various sins that we find listed in the various sins that we find listed in the various sins that we find listed in the Bible. That's what the tradition of the Bible. That's what the tradition of the Bible. That's what the tradition of the seven deadly sins in in church history, seven deadly sins in in church history, seven deadly sins in in church history, which is rich and thick. uh it was which is rich and thick. uh it was which is rich and thick. uh it was developed and it and it continued to be developed and it and it continued to be developed and it and it continued to be used because it was a helpful device for used because it was a helpful device for used because it was a helpful device for kind of collecting all the things that kind of collecting all the things that kind of collecting all the things that the Bible talks about as sinful under the Bible talks about as sinful under the Bible talks about as sinful under various kind of primary categories various kind of primary categories various kind of primary categories >> not only for the sake of biblical >> not only for the sake of biblical >> not only for the sake of biblical interpretation but really above all as a interpretation but really above all as a interpretation but really above all as a tool for discerning tool for discerning tool for discerning >> those things in my life. Well, God talks >> those things in my life. Well, God talks >> those things in my life. Well, God talks about a lot of areas of sin. How do I about a lot of areas of sin. How do I about a lot of areas of sin. How do I what's a framework that I can use to what's a framework that I can use to what's a framework that I can use to actually discern some of those things in actually discern some of those things in actually discern some of those things in my life that isn't like a list of 789 my life that isn't like a list of 789 my life that isn't like a list of 789 things I have to look at every day?

things I have to look at every day? things I have to look at every day? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You know, and I think the seven quote >> You know, and I think the seven quote >> You know, and I think the seven quote deadly sins deadly sins deadly sins became a really helpful way for became a really helpful way for became a really helpful way for Christians to do that. And so, you know, Christians to do that. And so, you know, Christians to do that. And so, you know, it's difficult to confess if you can't it's difficult to confess if you can't it's difficult to confess if you can't actually name the sin. actually name the sin. actually name the sin. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And there's confessing an idea at that >> And there's confessing an idea at that >> And there's confessing an idea at that point rather than point rather than point rather than >> And one of I think the temp prevailing >> And one of I think the temp prevailing >> And one of I think the temp prevailing temptations in confession is to kind of temptations in confession is to kind of temptations in confession is to kind of stay generic with your sin. stay generic with your sin. stay generic with your sin. >> Yeah. It kind of lightens the load a >> Yeah. It kind of lightens the load a >> Yeah. It kind of lightens the load a little bit. little bit. little bit. >> Oh Lord, I'm a sinner. You know that >> Oh Lord, I'm a sinner. You know that >> Oh Lord, I'm a sinner. You know that about me and I sinned again. I'm sorry. about me and I sinned again. I'm sorry. about me and I sinned again. I'm sorry. And and I think we need to name it and And and I think we need to name it and And and I think we need to name it and we need to be specific. Um it doesn't we need to be specific. Um it doesn't we need to be specific. Um it doesn't mean we need to kind of we need to be mean we need to kind of we need to be mean we need to kind of we need to be wary of kind of scrupulosity, right, of wary of kind of scrupulosity, right, of wary of kind of scrupulosity, right, of of overly investigating it to such a of overly investigating it to such a of overly investigating it to such a degree that we're just like, degree that we're just like, degree that we're just like, >> you know, kind of grinding away the >> you know, kind of grinding away the >> you know, kind of grinding away the specificity, right? But but I I I find specificity, right? But but I I I find specificity, right? But but I I I find for most of us that's probably not so for most of us that's probably not so for most of us that's probably not so much the temptation anymore as it is to much the temptation anymore as it is to much the temptation anymore as it is to kind of to gloss. kind of to gloss. kind of to gloss. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> To to be generic, to speak quickly of >> To to be generic, to speak quickly of >> To to be generic, to speak quickly of grace without actually name. It wasn't grace without actually name. It wasn't grace without actually name. It wasn't really that bad, but Lord, I figure I really that bad, but Lord, I figure I really that bad, but Lord, I figure I should tell you about it should tell you about it should tell you about it >> to speak quickly of forgiveness and our >> to speak quickly of forgiveness and our >> to speak quickly of forgiveness and our gratitude for it, which is wonderful, gratitude for it, which is wonderful, gratitude for it, which is wonderful, but without actually naming why we need but without actually naming why we need but without actually naming why we need need like why we're grateful for that need like why we're grateful for that need like why we're grateful for that forgiveness, what it is specifically we forgiveness, what it is specifically we forgiveness, what it is specifically we did we we did wrong. And so in light of did we we did wrong. And so in light of did we we did wrong. And so in light of that, I think what folks would find as that, I think what folks would find as that, I think what folks would find as they read this, whether they're pastor, they read this, whether they're pastor, they read this, whether they're pastor, ministry leader, even a volunteer, ministry leader, even a volunteer, ministry leader, even a volunteer, they're just a Christian. I think what they're just a Christian. I think what they're just a Christian. I think what they would find is each of these they would find is each of these they would find is each of these chapters is really helpful because I chapters is really helpful because I chapters is really helpful because I walk through a biblical theological walk through a biblical theological walk through a biblical theological explanation and description of each of explanation and description of each of explanation and description of each of those sins. And I provide a kind of grid those sins. And I provide a kind of grid those sins. And I provide a kind of grid of discernment for those things in their

of discernment for those things in their of discernment for those things in their lives in a whole host of ways in their lives in a whole host of ways in their lives in a whole host of ways in their relationships and their work life and relationships and their work life and relationships and their work life and their, you know, their home life. And so their, you know, their home life. And so their, you know, their home life. And so assuming everyone listening to to this assuming everyone listening to to this assuming everyone listening to to this is like me and they struggle with, you is like me and they struggle with, you is like me and they struggle with, you know, sin, uh, sins like pride, lust, know, sin, uh, sins like pride, lust, know, sin, uh, sins like pride, lust, envy, greed, uh, sloth or aadia. going envy, greed, uh, sloth or aadia. going envy, greed, uh, sloth or aadia. going to say, "Let's talk about Acadia." to say, "Let's talk about Acadia." to say, "Let's talk about Acadia." >> Gluttony and anger, you know, those >> Gluttony and anger, you know, those >> Gluttony and anger, you know, those assuming they struggle with those, which assuming they struggle with those, which assuming they struggle with those, which I'm I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm I'm going to go out on a limb and say they have at some point in their say they have at some point in their say they have at some point in their life and or they will. Yeah. um then I life and or they will. Yeah. um then I life and or they will. Yeah. um then I think they'll find this book to be think they'll find this book to be think they'll find this book to be really helpful and I think a a a helpful really helpful and I think a a a helpful really helpful and I think a a a helpful guide into a life of prayerful guide into a life of prayerful guide into a life of prayerful confession such that they can experience confession such that they can experience confession such that they can experience the good news of the gospel their sins the good news of the gospel their sins the good news of the gospel their sins are forgiven in Christ Jesus and that are forgiven in Christ Jesus and that are forgiven in Christ Jesus and that that that accomplished forgiveness in that that accomplished forgiveness in that that accomplished forgiveness in the cross can be applied to their hearts the cross can be applied to their hearts the cross can be applied to their hearts by the Holy Spirit in comfort and in in by the Holy Spirit in comfort and in in by the Holy Spirit in comfort and in in encouragement and in freedom right and encouragement and in freedom right and encouragement and in freedom right and in healing. So that's the end goal here. in healing. So that's the end goal here. in healing. So that's the end goal here. The end goal here isn't like, "All The end goal here isn't like, "All The end goal here isn't like, "All right, now you know your sin, right? The right, now you know your sin, right? The right, now you know your sin, right? The end goal here is rather that you would end goal here is rather that you would end goal here is rather that you would know the grace of God and how what he's know the grace of God and how what he's know the grace of God and how what he's done for you in Christ and how he meets done for you in Christ and how he meets done for you in Christ and how he meets you in love and that you would know you in love and that you would know you in love and that you would know there's no condemnation in Christ there's no condemnation in Christ there's no condemnation in Christ Jesus." And you would experience that as Jesus." And you would experience that as Jesus." And you would experience that as a personally a personally a personally >> deep meaningful good word to your heart >> deep meaningful good word to your heart >> deep meaningful good word to your heart because you know, oh, I'm worthy of because you know, oh, I'm worthy of because you know, oh, I'm worthy of condemnation. and God says, "No, in condemnation. and God says, "No, in condemnation. and God says, "No, in Christ Jesus, I declare you righteous."

Christ Jesus, I declare you righteous." Christ Jesus, I declare you righteous." You know, um, You know, um, You know, um, >> so I I I think I I would hope the book >> so I I I think I I would hope the book >> so I I I think I I would hope the book would be a real aid into grace and the would be a real aid into grace and the would be a real aid into grace and the good news of the gospel for anybody. good news of the gospel for anybody. good news of the gospel for anybody. I hope in the half an hour that we've I hope in the half an hour that we've I hope in the half an hour that we've already been talking that we've made a already been talking that we've made a already been talking that we've made a great like pitch for confession. We've great like pitch for confession. We've great like pitch for confession. We've talked a lot about the why. For those talked a lot about the why. For those talked a lot about the why. For those who are listening who are like still who are listening who are like still who are listening who are like still wondering like well you know what does wondering like well you know what does wondering like well you know what does scripture literally say about scripture literally say about scripture literally say about confession? Can you give a like brief confession? Can you give a like brief confession? Can you give a like brief overview? What does the Bible actually overview? What does the Bible actually overview? What does the Bible actually say about about confession? say about about confession? say about about confession? >> Yeah. Well I think the right place to >> Yeah. Well I think the right place to >> Yeah. Well I think the right place to begin here Jason is just with prayer begin here Jason is just with prayer begin here Jason is just with prayer because confession is a mode of prayer. because confession is a mode of prayer. because confession is a mode of prayer. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Prayer is drawing near to the Lord in >> Prayer is drawing near to the Lord in >> Prayer is drawing near to the Lord in the truth of ourselves. the truth of ourselves. the truth of ourselves. And um it's being with God who is with And um it's being with God who is with And um it's being with God who is with us. And that being with entails a us. And that being with entails a us. And that being with entails a knowing and a being known, right? It's knowing and a being known, right? It's knowing and a being known, right? It's drawing near to God and the truth of drawing near to God and the truth of drawing near to God and the truth of ourselves. And so as a result I what I ourselves. And so as a result I what I ourselves. And so as a result I what I would say is confession is that mode of would say is confession is that mode of would say is confession is that mode of prayer in which we draw near to the Lord prayer in which we draw near to the Lord prayer in which we draw near to the Lord in the truth of our sin in particular in the truth of our sin in particular in the truth of our sin in particular and truth of ourselves is is always the and truth of ourselves is is always the and truth of ourselves is is always the invitation. Show up invitation. Show up invitation. Show up >> um present yourself to the Lord. But in >> um present yourself to the Lord. But in >> um present yourself to the Lord. But in confession we're we're intentionally confession we're we're intentionally confession we're we're intentionally presenting our sin and our vi our vice presenting our sin and our vi our vice presenting our sin and our vi our vice structures and propensities in our life.

structures and propensities in our life. structures and propensities in our life. Um, and I think the the Christian life Um, and I think the the Christian life Um, and I think the the Christian life of course begins in confession. It of course begins in confession. It of course begins in confession. It begins with repent and believe. begins with repent and believe. begins with repent and believe. >> We acknowledge our sinful rebellion >> We acknowledge our sinful rebellion >> We acknowledge our sinful rebellion against God, our need for his grace and against God, our need for his grace and against God, our need for his grace and his forgiveness that are offered to us his forgiveness that are offered to us his forgiveness that are offered to us in and through Christ Jesus and his work in and through Christ Jesus and his work in and through Christ Jesus and his work upon the cross. But of course, we don't upon the cross. But of course, we don't upon the cross. But of course, we don't kind of leave the cross behind in the kind of leave the cross behind in the kind of leave the cross behind in the Christian life. Christian life. Christian life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And um the truth is we're called to >> And um the truth is we're called to >> And um the truth is we're called to remain right there. I think here of um remain right there. I think here of um remain right there. I think here of um Martin Luther's first words in his 95 Martin Luther's first words in his 95 Martin Luther's first words in his 95 thesis when our lord and teacher Jesus thesis when our lord and teacher Jesus thesis when our lord and teacher Jesus Christ said repent he meant that the Christ said repent he meant that the Christ said repent he meant that the entire life of believers should be a entire life of believers should be a entire life of believers should be a life of repentance life of repentance life of repentance >> and um Luther of course strong on >> and um Luther of course strong on >> and um Luther of course strong on justification by faith right um imputed justification by faith right um imputed justification by faith right um imputed righteousness in Christ in other words righteousness in Christ in other words righteousness in Christ in other words you are forgiven in Jesus he's not he's you are forgiven in Jesus he's not he's you are forgiven in Jesus he's not he's not missing that as part of conversion not missing that as part of conversion not missing that as part of conversion he doesn't think you're kind of going on he doesn't think you're kind of going on he doesn't think you're kind of going on to earn keep earning forgiveness or you to earn keep earning forgiveness or you to earn keep earning forgiveness or you have to kind of make up for sins that have to kind of make up for sins that have to kind of make up for sins that might happen. No, all sins are covered might happen. No, all sins are covered might happen. No, all sins are covered by Christ. But yet what he recognizes is by Christ. But yet what he recognizes is by Christ. But yet what he recognizes is >> yet still while we are saints, while >> yet still while we are saints, while >> yet still while we are saints, while we're declared righteous, while we are we're declared righteous, while we are we're declared righteous, while we are justified in Christ, we still sin justified in Christ, we still sin justified in Christ, we still sin >> and the invitation is to continue to >> and the invitation is to continue to >> and the invitation is to continue to repent to embrace this this way of the repent to embrace this this way of the repent to embrace this this way of the cross. So confession, I think cross. So confession, I think cross. So confession, I think it has to be a way of life in prayer for it has to be a way of life in prayer for it has to be a way of life in prayer for us as Christians, not an occasional act, us as Christians, not an occasional act, us as Christians, not an occasional act, but an a kind of fixture of our ongoing but an a kind of fixture of our ongoing but an a kind of fixture of our ongoing dialogue with God about our life and

dialogue with God about our life and dialogue with God about our life and about the life he's called us to. And about the life he's called us to. And about the life he's called us to. And the good news of the gospel is that God the good news of the gospel is that God the good news of the gospel is that God always meets us in grace and our always meets us in grace and our always meets us in grace and our confession. Um, 1 John 1:9, if we confession. Um, 1 John 1:9, if we confession. Um, 1 John 1:9, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and confess our sins, he is faithful and confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and just and will forgive us our sins and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us of all unrighteousness. So, I purify us of all unrighteousness. So, I purify us of all unrighteousness. So, I think think think um this is this is the call of um this is this is the call of um this is this is the call of confession in the Christian life. Yeah. confession in the Christian life. Yeah. confession in the Christian life. Yeah. It begins in salvation, but it it It begins in salvation, but it it It begins in salvation, but it it continues in the Christian life. And I continues in the Christian life. And I continues in the Christian life. And I think there's reasons why we struggle think there's reasons why we struggle think there's reasons why we struggle with that. And I I could speak to that a with that. And I I could speak to that a with that. And I I could speak to that a little bit. But yeah, I think little bit. But yeah, I think little bit. But yeah, I think there's a lot we could say here. Uh um there's a lot we could say here. Uh um there's a lot we could say here. Uh um uh thankfully I had a chance of writing uh thankfully I had a chance of writing uh thankfully I had a chance of writing a book, so I say a bunch more, you know, a book, so I say a bunch more, you know, a book, so I say a bunch more, you know, but I think I do think probably most of but I think I do think probably most of but I think I do think probably most of what I just said what I just said what I just said our listeners would say yes and amen um our listeners would say yes and amen um our listeners would say yes and amen um would be my hunch. But yet if we're would be my hunch. But yet if we're would be my hunch. But yet if we're honest, and I would I highly recommend honest, and I would I highly recommend honest, and I would I highly recommend honesty as a way of life. honesty as a way of life. honesty as a way of life. >> That's a that's a good choice. >> That's a that's a good choice. >> That's a that's a good choice. >> I think if we're honest, if I'm honest, >> I think if we're honest, if I'm honest, >> I think if we're honest, if I'm honest, >> we still struggle.

>> we still struggle. >> we still struggle. >> Yeah. we shrink back from what I just >> Yeah. we shrink back from what I just >> Yeah. we shrink back from what I just said. Um, said. Um, said. Um, >> it's easier said than done. We can talk >> it's easier said than done. We can talk >> it's easier said than done. We can talk about it, but then when it comes to our about it, but then when it comes to our about it, but then when it comes to our turn, we're like, uh, turn, we're like, uh, turn, we're like, uh, >> of course, the gospel and grace and >> of course, the gospel and grace and >> of course, the gospel and grace and meeting us in our sin and meeting us in our sin and meeting us in our sin and >> that person should totally do that. >> that person should totally do that. >> that person should totally do that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is really >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is really >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is really important stuff for somebody. Um, and important stuff for somebody. Um, and important stuff for somebody. Um, and so, so I think why do we struggle? And so, so I think why do we struggle? And so, so I think why do we struggle? And there's a lot that could be said here there's a lot that could be said here there's a lot that could be said here and I I do say more in the book, but I and I I do say more in the book, but I and I I do say more in the book, but I think at a fundamental level I would think at a fundamental level I would think at a fundamental level I would want to say this for the same reason want to say this for the same reason want to say this for the same reason Adam and Eve struggled in the garden. Adam and Eve struggled in the garden. Adam and Eve struggled in the garden. >> Mhm. Um, if you remember that scene, >> Mhm. Um, if you remember that scene, >> Mhm. Um, if you remember that scene, Genesis 3, following sin's entrance into Genesis 3, following sin's entrance into Genesis 3, following sin's entrance into the human story and then through their the human story and then through their the human story and then through their act of rebellion and autonomy and act of rebellion and autonomy and act of rebellion and autonomy and turning away from God and seeking to be turning away from God and seeking to be turning away from God and seeking to be God on their own and taking the fruit God on their own and taking the fruit God on their own and taking the fruit that they were told not to take and eat that they were told not to take and eat that they were told not to take and eat and um, what do they do as God comes to and um, what do they do as God comes to and um, what do they do as God comes to walk in the garden again in the cool of walk in the garden again in the cool of walk in the garden again in the cool of the day to be with them as he as we're the day to be with them as he as we're the day to be with them as he as we're told he often did? Well, we find them told he often did? Well, we find them told he often did? Well, we find them hiding and covering hiding and covering hiding and covering >> and >> and >> and their guilt and shame has driven them their guilt and shame has driven them their guilt and shame has driven them towards a kind of new new disordered towards a kind of new new disordered towards a kind of new new disordered posture of relationship with God. And posture of relationship with God. And posture of relationship with God. And ultimately what's going on there, ultimately what's going on there, ultimately what's going on there, there's a lot we could say, but there's a lot we could say, but there's a lot we could say, but ultimately what's going on there is a ultimately what's going on there is a ultimately what's going on there is a fear of condemnation, fear of condemnation, fear of condemnation, >> a fear of being seen in their bad, of >> a fear of being seen in their bad, of >> a fear of being seen in their bad, of being known in their bad, of being being known in their bad, of being being known in their bad, of being exposed.

exposed. exposed. Um, and of course God knows what they've Um, and of course God knows what they've Um, and of course God knows what they've done. You know, God comes asking that done. You know, God comes asking that done. You know, God comes asking that question, where are you? And I take it question, where are you? And I take it question, where are you? And I take it that's the question of invitation into that's the question of invitation into that's the question of invitation into confession. God God's not like bad at confession. God God's not like bad at confession. God God's not like bad at hideand seek. You know, he's not hideand seek. You know, he's not hideand seek. You know, he's not >> he's not like, man, >> he's not like, man, >> he's not like, man, >> are you behind the elephant again? >> are you behind the elephant again? >> are you behind the elephant again? >> You know, he's not struggling to find >> You know, he's not struggling to find >> You know, he's not struggling to find them. Nor is it a question just about them. Nor is it a question just about them. Nor is it a question just about just about where they physically are. just about where they physically are. just about where they physically are. It's about about where they where It's about about where they where It's about about where they where they've gone spiritually. Where have you they've gone spiritually. Where have you they've gone spiritually. Where have you gone? You've turned away from me. You're gone? You've turned away from me. You're gone? You've turned away from me. You're hiding from me. And it's a question of hiding from me. And it's a question of hiding from me. And it's a question of invitation. invitation. invitation. God knows that in order for them to God knows that in order for them to God knows that in order for them to actually experience him meeting them in actually experience him meeting them in actually experience him meeting them in grace, which he does, grace, which he does, grace, which he does, >> they're going to have to come out of >> they're going to have to come out of >> they're going to have to come out of hiding. Yeah. they're going to have to hiding. Yeah. they're going to have to hiding. Yeah. they're going to have to show up to the relationship and um take show up to the relationship and um take show up to the relationship and um take the risk of exposure the risk of exposure the risk of exposure >> and find out what happens when the Lord >> and find out what happens when the Lord >> and find out what happens when the Lord of all creation meets you in your of all creation meets you in your of all creation meets you in your failure. And I think failure. And I think failure. And I think the the challenge here is sin's great the the challenge here is sin's great the the challenge here is sin's great lie is that the place of our healing is lie is that the place of our healing is lie is that the place of our healing is the place of harm, the place of harm, the place of harm, >> right? Like we we fear that place >> right? Like we we fear that place >> right? Like we we fear that place because we fear condemnation. We fear because we fear condemnation. We fear because we fear condemnation. We fear harm. And in fact, it's the place of harm. And in fact, it's the place of harm. And in fact, it's the place of healing. It's the place of grace. The healing. It's the place of grace. The healing. It's the place of grace. The truth is being known in the truth of our truth is being known in the truth of our truth is being known in the truth of our sin is the only way to actually sin is the only way to actually sin is the only way to actually experience God's healing presence. It's experience God's healing presence. It's experience God's healing presence. It's actually the only solution to the sin is

actually the only solution to the sin is actually the only solution to the sin is God's healing presence. God's healing presence. God's healing presence. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And left to our own devices of trying to >> And left to our own devices of trying to >> And left to our own devices of trying to hide and cover and quote manage our sin hide and cover and quote manage our sin hide and cover and quote manage our sin on our own, right? um we move more and on our own, right? um we move more and on our own, right? um we move more and more into lonely deadly autonomy and more into lonely deadly autonomy and more into lonely deadly autonomy and life is life with God. life is life with God. life is life with God. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So I think this will always be our >> So I think this will always be our >> So I think this will always be our temptation. We just you know as those temptation. We just you know as those temptation. We just you know as those who have um inherited this way of Adam who have um inherited this way of Adam who have um inherited this way of Adam and all the reality of the doctrine of and all the reality of the doctrine of and all the reality of the doctrine of original sin. Um, I think this will original sin. Um, I think this will original sin. Um, I think this will always be a temptation for us to hide always be a temptation for us to hide always be a temptation for us to hide and to cover in our sin and to cover in our sin and to cover in our sin >> and to cover up with good, to put on >> and to cover up with good, to put on >> and to cover up with good, to put on self-righteousness, self-righteousness, self-righteousness, to to try to kind of hide and avoid and to to try to kind of hide and avoid and to to try to kind of hide and avoid and kind of slink around in the corners of kind of slink around in the corners of kind of slink around in the corners of our life being productive in our work our life being productive in our work our life being productive in our work or, you know, busying ourselves or, you know, busying ourselves or, you know, busying ourselves >> rather than drawing near to the Lord. >> rather than drawing near to the Lord. >> rather than drawing near to the Lord. But we're to remember here, I think, But we're to remember here, I think, But we're to remember here, I think, scripture, draw near with boldness to scripture, draw near with boldness to scripture, draw near with boldness to the throne of grace. Why? Because you do the throne of grace. Why? Because you do the throne of grace. Why? Because you do have a covering. Yeah. It's Christ have a covering. Yeah. It's Christ have a covering. Yeah. It's Christ Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, >> his righteousness, right? Why? Because >> his righteousness, right? Why? Because >> his righteousness, right? Why? Because you do have a hiding place. Your life is you do have a hiding place. Your life is you do have a hiding place. Your life is now hidden in God with Christ, right? Um now hidden in God with Christ, right? Um now hidden in God with Christ, right? Um he has covered you. He has hid you in he has covered you. He has hid you in he has covered you. He has hid you in Christ. And so you can draw near boldly Christ. And so you can draw near boldly Christ. And so you can draw near boldly to the throne of grace because you you to the throne of grace because you you to the throne of grace because you you draw near in Christ.

draw near in Christ. draw near in Christ. >> Um here he calls us to remember there's >> Um here he calls us to remember there's >> Um here he calls us to remember there's now no condemnation for those in Christ now no condemnation for those in Christ now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. So, show up. Let it rip. Jesus. So, show up. Let it rip. Jesus. So, show up. Let it rip. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, like here's what's really >> You know, like here's what's really >> You know, like here's what's really going on. Here's what I did. going on. Here's what I did. going on. Here's what I did. >> Of course, God already knows. You're not >> Of course, God already knows. You're not >> Of course, God already knows. You're not informing him of something he's not informing him of something he's not informing him of something he's not aware of. But he he invites you into aware of. But he he invites you into aware of. But he he invites you into authentic authentic authentic >> relationship and confession. Not because >> relationship and confession. Not because >> relationship and confession. Not because he needs to know what's really going on, he needs to know what's really going on, he needs to know what's really going on, but because you need to be known but because you need to be known but because you need to be known >> in the truth of what's really going on. >> in the truth of what's really going on. >> in the truth of what's really going on. This is where healing is to be found. is This is where healing is to be found. is This is where healing is to be found. is is encountering love where we expected is encountering love where we expected is encountering love where we expected condemnation, encountering grace where condemnation, encountering grace where condemnation, encountering grace where we expected rejection. we expected rejection. we expected rejection. This is where the healing is done. This is where the healing is done. This is where the healing is done. >> Let's then add the next layer which is >> Let's then add the next layer which is >> Let's then add the next layer which is other people. You have a whole section other people. You have a whole section other people. You have a whole section in the last chapter of your book in the last chapter of your book in the last chapter of your book >> on confessing to other people and why >> on confessing to other people and why >> on confessing to other people and why that is so important. Can you add that that is so important. Can you add that that is so important. Can you add that into the equation of that relationship into the equation of that relationship into the equation of that relationship with confessing to God? But let's add with confessing to God? But let's add with confessing to God? But let's add the the the >> Yeah. add the horizontal relationship.

>> Yeah. add the horizontal relationship. >> Yeah. add the horizontal relationship. >> You know, interestingly, I think this is >> You know, interestingly, I think this is >> You know, interestingly, I think this is what what what >> for some of us we actually find harder >> for some of us we actually find harder >> for some of us we actually find harder than the other. than the other. than the other. >> Um, and you know, I I think uh just as a >> Um, and you know, I I think uh just as a >> Um, and you know, I I think uh just as a brief side note, there might be a bit of brief side note, there might be a bit of brief side note, there might be a bit of a story to tell here by way of kind of a story to tell here by way of kind of a story to tell here by way of kind of just just just >> um our church roots and kind of heritage >> um our church roots and kind of heritage >> um our church roots and kind of heritage in American evangelicalism in particular in American evangelicalism in particular in American evangelicalism in particular over the last 50 to 75 years. um you over the last 50 to 75 years. um you over the last 50 to 75 years. um you know in in many of the contexts in which know in in many of the contexts in which know in in many of the contexts in which I served as a pastor, not just where I served as a pastor, not just where I served as a pastor, not just where where I where I've worshiped. Um where I where I've worshiped. Um where I where I've worshiped. Um confession wasn't a part of corporate confession wasn't a part of corporate confession wasn't a part of corporate worship. Um that's actually not true in worship. Um that's actually not true in worship. Um that's actually not true in much of church history and in other much of church history and in other much of church history and in other places around Christian denominations in places around Christian denominations in places around Christian denominations in particular. Um particular. Um particular. Um >> and so I I think uh there's reasons for >> and so I I think uh there's reasons for >> and so I I think uh there's reasons for that. There's a story to be told there. that. There's a story to be told there. that. There's a story to be told there. Um, but I do think Um, but I do think Um, but I do think often times the structures of church often times the structures of church often times the structures of church life, worship on Sunday morning or even life, worship on Sunday morning or even life, worship on Sunday morning or even just the ways we organize relating, um, just the ways we organize relating, um, just the ways we organize relating, um, we don't have kind of baked in we don't have kind of baked in we don't have kind of baked in confession.

confession. confession. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And uh, and I think there's something >> And uh, and I think there's something >> And uh, and I think there's something there for us to wrestle with. there for us to wrestle with. there for us to wrestle with. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think at bare minimum, I would say >> I think at bare minimum, I would say >> I think at bare minimum, I would say something like that that probably ought something like that that probably ought something like that that probably ought not be um that it needs to be a part of not be um that it needs to be a part of not be um that it needs to be a part of our liturgy. It needs to be part of our our liturgy. It needs to be part of our our liturgy. It needs to be part of our rhythm of life as a community in in some rhythm of life as a community in in some rhythm of life as a community in in some ways. And that can look I think a ways. And that can look I think a ways. And that can look I think a variety of different ways. variety of different ways. variety of different ways. >> But I I I think I just want to >> But I I I think I just want to >> But I I I think I just want to acknowledge that out the gate. I think acknowledge that out the gate. I think acknowledge that out the gate. I think for many especially if they've grown up for many especially if they've grown up for many especially if they've grown up in kind of more evangelical church or a in kind of more evangelical church or a in kind of more evangelical church or a non-denominational church environment non-denominational church environment non-denominational church environment like you know like I've been in for many like you know like I've been in for many like you know like I've been in for many years. it if if they try to find a years. it if if they try to find a years. it if if they try to find a reference point in their experience of reference point in their experience of reference point in their experience of like the the times we were supposed to like the the times we were supposed to like the the times we were supposed to confess sins to one another or who I confess sins to one another or who I confess sins to one another or who I confess my sins to, they might be kind confess my sins to, they might be kind confess my sins to, they might be kind of coming up with like a I got nothing, of coming up with like a I got nothing, of coming up with like a I got nothing, you know, and you know, and you know, and >> I think I heard it mentioned once. >> I think I heard it mentioned once. >> I think I heard it mentioned once. >> Yeah. So, you know, maybe the only >> Yeah. So, you know, maybe the only >> Yeah. So, you know, maybe the only reference point, especially for for reference point, especially for for reference point, especially for for folks of my generation, maybe even your folks of my generation, maybe even your folks of my generation, maybe even your generation, a little bit younger, but generation, a little bit younger, but generation, a little bit younger, but we're not too far apart. like there was we're not too far apart. like there was we're not too far apart. like there was this kind of movement of of like find an this kind of movement of of like find an this kind of movement of of like find an accountability partner for a while and accountability partner for a while and accountability partner for a while and and in many ways I think like and in many ways I think like and in many ways I think like >> that was a great there was something >> that was a great there was something >> that was a great there was something really good about that you know I'm sure really good about that you know I'm sure really good about that you know I'm sure people experienced it in different ways people experienced it in different ways people experienced it in different ways but at least in principle the idea that but at least in principle the idea that but at least in principle the idea that >> I need to have somebody that knows my >> I need to have somebody that knows my >> I need to have somebody that knows my sin sin sin >> and kind of leans in and holds me >> and kind of leans in and holds me >> and kind of leans in and holds me accountable in those areas of my life accountable in those areas of my life accountable in those areas of my life asks about that and asks about that and asks about that and >> and so here's where I would kind of >> and so here's where I would kind of >> and so here's where I would kind of press us and I the anchor point for us press us and I the anchor point for us press us and I the anchor point for us is just going to be James 5:16 therefore is just going to be James 5:16 therefore is just going to be James 5:16 therefore or confess your sins to one another and or confess your sins to one another and or confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be pray for one another that you may be pray for one another that you may be healed.

healed. healed. >> Yeah, I >> Yeah, I >> Yeah, I >> it's fairly straightforward. The >> it's fairly straightforward. The >> it's fairly straightforward. The surrounding context of that of that surrounding context of that of that surrounding context of that of that passage talks about actually folks passage talks about actually folks passage talks about actually folks suffering physical illness because suffering physical illness because suffering physical illness because they're keeping their sin to themselves. they're keeping their sin to themselves. they're keeping their sin to themselves. I think as we pay attention to the whole I think as we pay attention to the whole I think as we pay attention to the whole of the the book of James, what we of the the book of James, what we of the the book of James, what we discover is discover is discover is >> James doesn't just have physical I think >> James doesn't just have physical I think >> James doesn't just have physical I think uh illness and ailment in mind here, but uh illness and ailment in mind here, but uh illness and ailment in mind here, but how sin affects the soul. James has a how sin affects the soul. James has a how sin affects the soul. James has a very holistic vision of human persons as very holistic vision of human persons as very holistic vision of human persons as we read his whole epistle. And I think we read his whole epistle. And I think we read his whole epistle. And I think what James has in mind here is you're in what James has in mind here is you're in what James has in mind here is you're in trouble if you keep your sin to trouble if you keep your sin to trouble if you keep your sin to yourself, right? There's a sickness of yourself, right? There's a sickness of yourself, right? There's a sickness of soul and potentially even a sickness of soul and potentially even a sickness of soul and potentially even a sickness of body. Um, which I think many of us don't body. Um, which I think many of us don't body. Um, which I think many of us don't have a category for, but he's saying have a category for, but he's saying have a category for, but he's saying that that can can show up if you don't that that can can show up if you don't that that can can show up if you don't do this. Um, and so I think do this. Um, and so I think do this. Um, and so I think >> why confess our sins one to another? >> why confess our sins one to another? >> why confess our sins one to another? Well, because that grace of God, the Well, because that grace of God, the Well, because that grace of God, the good news of the gospel, um that word of good news of the gospel, um that word of good news of the gospel, um that word of comfort in the cross of Christ, um it it comfort in the cross of Christ, um it it comfort in the cross of Christ, um it it it comes to us, it is mediated in and it comes to us, it is mediated in and it comes to us, it is mediated in and through the members of Christ's body, through the members of Christ's body, through the members of Christ's body, right? They are ministers. We are we are right? They are ministers. We are we are right? They are ministers. We are we are ministers of the gospel to one another.

ministers of the gospel to one another. ministers of the gospel to one another. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And and so to speak of God caring for us >> And and so to speak of God caring for us >> And and so to speak of God caring for us >> is to speak of the church caring for us, >> is to speak of the church caring for us, >> is to speak of the church caring for us, right? God God doesn't like kind of right? God God doesn't like kind of right? God God doesn't like kind of neatly separate these things or cordon neatly separate these things or cordon neatly separate these things or cordon these things off. You got like me over these things off. You got like me over these things off. You got like me over here and you relate to me and then the here and you relate to me and then the here and you relate to me and then the church over there and you relate to the church over there and you relate to the church over there and you relate to the church. Like no no these are members of church. Like no no these are members of church. Like no no these are members of the body of Christ. the body of Christ. the body of Christ. >> The spirit now dwells in and works in >> The spirit now dwells in and works in >> The spirit now dwells in and works in and through those members to build up and through those members to build up and through those members to build up that body in love. Oh, it turns out that body in love. Oh, it turns out that body in love. Oh, it turns out needing God means needing my brothers needing God means needing my brothers needing God means needing my brothers and sisters. It's not just I need God and sisters. It's not just I need God and sisters. It's not just I need God and I need people. It's I need God. and I need people. It's I need God. and I need people. It's I need God. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. kind of period. And it turns out the way kind of period. And it turns out the way kind of period. And it turns out the way in which I experience his care and grace in which I experience his care and grace in which I experience his care and grace for me is in and through his people. for me is in and through his people. for me is in and through his people. Yes, of course, we need human Yes, of course, we need human Yes, of course, we need human relationships, but the idea is not just relationships, but the idea is not just relationships, but the idea is not just that human relationships are quotequote that human relationships are quotequote that human relationships are quotequote also good. Yeah. But that God has chosen also good. Yeah. But that God has chosen also good. Yeah. But that God has chosen to minister to us by the power of his to minister to us by the power of his to minister to us by the power of his spirit in and through his body, which spirit in and through his body, which spirit in and through his body, which are the members of his body, my brothers are the members of his body, my brothers are the members of his body, my brothers and sisters in Christ. So, and sisters in Christ. So, and sisters in Christ. So, >> um, I take it here that note at the end >> um, I take it here that note at the end >> um, I take it here that note at the end of James 5:16 is important to pay of James 5:16 is important to pay of James 5:16 is important to pay attention to that we pray for one attention to that we pray for one attention to that we pray for one another. It's not just that I'm hearing another. It's not just that I'm hearing another. It's not just that I'm hearing and I'm holding you accountable, and I'm holding you accountable, and I'm holding you accountable, >> but that I am >> but that I am >> but that I am >> bringing this before the Lord with you.

>> bringing this before the Lord with you. >> bringing this before the Lord with you. I'm interceding on your behalf. And I'm interceding on your behalf. And I'm interceding on your behalf. And what's clear in scripture is we need what's clear in scripture is we need what's clear in scripture is we need that. We need the prayers of one another that. We need the prayers of one another that. We need the prayers of one another in our lives in a whole host of ways. in our lives in a whole host of ways. in our lives in a whole host of ways. And so our lives are held before God by And so our lives are held before God by And so our lives are held before God by brothers and sisters in Christ. I think brothers and sisters in Christ. I think brothers and sisters in Christ. I think the last thing to say here aside from the last thing to say here aside from the last thing to say here aside from the obvious command, the value of the obvious command, the value of the obvious command, the value of accountability, the need to be prayed accountability, the need to be prayed accountability, the need to be prayed for, the need to be the gospel to be for, the need to be the gospel to be for, the need to be the gospel to be ministered to us and through the body of ministered to us and through the body of ministered to us and through the body of Christ, is is this. Christ, is is this. Christ, is is this. If you don't share your sin with anyone If you don't share your sin with anyone If you don't share your sin with anyone else, you cannot make genuine and else, you cannot make genuine and else, you cannot make genuine and authentic confession of your sin. authentic confession of your sin. authentic confession of your sin. Because Because Because I know you struggle with the same sin I I know you struggle with the same sin I I know you struggle with the same sin I do, which is self-righteousness, which do, which is self-righteousness, which do, which is self-righteousness, which leads to self-deception. leads to self-deception. leads to self-deception. >> The heart is deceitful and the heart is >> The heart is deceitful and the heart is >> The heart is deceitful and the heart is deceitful and wicked above all else who deceitful and wicked above all else who deceitful and wicked above all else who can know it. James, excuse me, Jeremiah. can know it. James, excuse me, Jeremiah. can know it. James, excuse me, Jeremiah. Um, Um, Um, >> I can't know my heart on my own. >> I can't know my heart on my own. >> I can't know my heart on my own. >> I need others in my life to actually >> I need others in my life to actually >> I need others in my life to actually help me identify the sin that I need to help me identify the sin that I need to help me identify the sin that I need to confess properly.

confess properly. confess properly. >> Yeah. um apart from the body of Christ, >> Yeah. um apart from the body of Christ, >> Yeah. um apart from the body of Christ, I won't know the truth of myself. And I won't know the truth of myself. And I won't know the truth of myself. And this runs both ways. There may be things this runs both ways. There may be things this runs both ways. There may be things I'm actually calling call calling sin I'm actually calling call calling sin I'm actually calling call calling sin that I shouldn't be. Meaning I may be, that I shouldn't be. Meaning I may be, that I shouldn't be. Meaning I may be, you know, the heart is prone to condemn you know, the heart is prone to condemn you know, the heart is prone to condemn itself. We read in scripture, but God is itself. We read in scripture, but God is itself. We read in scripture, but God is greater than our heart. I in other greater than our heart. I in other greater than our heart. I in other words, there may be just like words, there may be just like words, there may be just like personality quirks that I have that I personality quirks that I have that I personality quirks that I have that I kind of have related to as vices or sins kind of have related to as vices or sins kind of have related to as vices or sins that really aren't and I'm kind of that really aren't and I'm kind of that really aren't and I'm kind of beating myself up about them as though beating myself up about them as though beating myself up about them as though God's mad at me and I ought to be God's mad at me and I ought to be God's mad at me and I ought to be ashamed of that. ashamed of that. ashamed of that. >> And I I need another to go no like I >> And I I need another to go no like I >> And I I need another to go no like I that's not a sin. that's not a sin. that's not a sin. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, and maybe you're right. It's a >> You know, and maybe you're right. It's a >> You know, and maybe you're right. It's a little weird sometimes you act that way. little weird sometimes you act that way. little weird sometimes you act that way. But but that's okay. I love you. If you But but that's okay. I love you. If you But but that's okay. I love you. If you don't like it, you can still talk to God don't like it, you can still talk to God don't like it, you can still talk to God about it, but not in a confessional about it, but not in a confessional about it, but not in a confessional >> standoint. I'm still your friend. We all >> standoint. I'm still your friend. We all >> standoint. I'm still your friend. We all have quirks, you know, that things we have quirks, you know, that things we have quirks, you know, that things we do, little piccadillos that can be do, little piccadillos that can be do, little piccadillos that can be annoying to us. annoying to us. annoying to us. >> Like all the people of Seinfeld just >> Like all the people of Seinfeld just >> Like all the people of Seinfeld just makes you think of Seinfeld episodes. makes you think of Seinfeld episodes. makes you think of Seinfeld episodes. >> Totally. But you know what? You don't >> Totally. But you know what? You don't >> Totally. But you know what? You don't like this isn't something for you to like this isn't something for you to like this isn't something for you to kind of continually bring before the kind of continually bring before the kind of continually bring before the Lord and ask him to kind of get rid of Lord and ask him to kind of get rid of Lord and ask him to kind of get rid of in your life or to beat yourself up.

in your life or to beat yourself up. in your life or to beat yourself up. Actually, something's gone really wrong Actually, something's gone really wrong Actually, something's gone really wrong there. So, I think trusted brothers and there. So, I think trusted brothers and there. So, I think trusted brothers and sisters in Christ can help us see that. sisters in Christ can help us see that. sisters in Christ can help us see that. And they can help us see, oh, brother, I And they can help us see, oh, brother, I And they can help us see, oh, brother, I love you, but you're not seeing this love you, but you're not seeing this love you, but you're not seeing this about your life. I'm noticing about your life. I'm noticing about your life. I'm noticing >> you you you show up with a kind of >> you you you show up with a kind of >> you you you show up with a kind of anger. anger. anger. >> And I know you well enough to know like >> And I know you well enough to know like >> And I know you well enough to know like that's I think what's going on. And can that's I think what's going on. And can that's I think what's going on. And can we can we explore that together? And I'm we can we explore that together? And I'm we can we explore that together? And I'm not I'm not sharing this with you to not I'm not sharing this with you to not I'm not sharing this with you to condemn you. condemn you. condemn you. >> I'm sharing this with you because like >> I'm sharing this with you because like >> I'm sharing this with you because like first of all, I have sin, too. Of first of all, I have sin, too. Of first of all, I have sin, too. Of course, we have sin. This is why we need course, we have sin. This is why we need course, we have sin. This is why we need Jesus. But how can I come alongside you Jesus. But how can I come alongside you Jesus. But how can I come alongside you in that? What would it like for us to in that? What would it like for us to in that? What would it like for us to bring this to the Lord together? How can bring this to the Lord together? How can bring this to the Lord together? How can I walk with you in that? That there just I walk with you in that? That there just I walk with you in that? That there just are going to be areas of sin we do not are going to be areas of sin we do not are going to be areas of sin we do not see in ourselves and don't notice in our see in ourselves and don't notice in our see in ourselves and don't notice in our lives. And to cut ourselves off from lives. And to cut ourselves off from lives. And to cut ourselves off from confession to others is to cut ourselves confession to others is to cut ourselves confession to others is to cut ourselves off from those honest conversations that off from those honest conversations that off from those honest conversations that can cultivate can cultivate can cultivate accurately discerning what really is accurately discerning what really is accurately discerning what really is going on in my life. How how am I going on in my life. How how am I going on in my life. How how am I living? How how is my heart kind of living? How how is my heart kind of living? How how is my heart kind of leaking out in my words and my actions?

leaking out in my words and my actions? leaking out in my words and my actions? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, let's get on the practical side of >> So, let's get on the practical side of >> So, let's get on the practical side of this. How can people or I should say this. How can people or I should say this. How can people or I should say this way, how would you recommend people this way, how would you recommend people this way, how would you recommend people start the practice of confession? Maybe start the practice of confession? Maybe start the practice of confession? Maybe it's something they've never actually it's something they've never actually it's something they've never actually explored in their life. Yeah. explored in their life. Yeah. explored in their life. Yeah. >> How would you recommend somebody, you >> How would you recommend somebody, you >> How would you recommend somebody, you know, take a first step? know, take a first step? know, take a first step? >> Yeah. Well, I I think the first place I >> Yeah. Well, I I think the first place I >> Yeah. Well, I I think the first place I would probably want them to begin is would probably want them to begin is would probably want them to begin is with just some meditation with just some meditation with just some meditation and prayer on the good news of the and prayer on the good news of the and prayer on the good news of the gospel, right? And so I think if I'm if gospel, right? And so I think if I'm if gospel, right? And so I think if I'm if I'm sitting with someone that um has I'm sitting with someone that um has I'm sitting with someone that um has spent their life hiding and covering spent their life hiding and covering spent their life hiding and covering very intentionally so perhaps um maybe very intentionally so perhaps um maybe very intentionally so perhaps um maybe in other ways just kind of unconsciously in other ways just kind of unconsciously in other ways just kind of unconsciously but they're realizing I don't I don't but they're realizing I don't I don't but they're realizing I don't I don't have a confessional prayer life at all. have a confessional prayer life at all. have a confessional prayer life at all. And I feel really nervous and scared to And I feel really nervous and scared to And I feel really nervous and scared to do that. Let's just kind of start there. do that. Let's just kind of start there. do that. Let's just kind of start there. >> People can be at various places >> People can be at various places >> People can be at various places developmentally here but I'm just going developmentally here but I'm just going developmentally here but I'm just going to begin there for the sake of answering to begin there for the sake of answering to begin there for the sake of answering your question. I think I think your question. I think I think your question. I think I think pastorally what I would want to say is I pastorally what I would want to say is I pastorally what I would want to say is I want you to just take some time here want you to just take some time here want you to just take some time here over the over the coming weeks to sit over the over the coming weeks to sit over the over the coming weeks to sit with the words of 1 John 1:9. If we with the words of 1 John 1:9. If we with the words of 1 John 1:9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and confess our sins, he is faithful and confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and just and will forgive us our sins and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. And purify us from all unrighteousness. And purify us from all unrighteousness. And just I just want you to sit with that. I just I just want you to sit with that. I just I just want you to sit with that. I just want you to sit with the good news just want you to sit with the good news just want you to sit with the good news of how God meets you in your sin. And I of how God meets you in your sin. And I of how God meets you in your sin. And I want you to pay attention to your heart.

want you to pay attention to your heart. want you to pay attention to your heart. Like is that hard for you to receive? Do Like is that hard for you to receive? Do Like is that hard for you to receive? Do you find yourself doubting that? Do you you find yourself doubting that? Do you you find yourself doubting that? Do you kind of go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I kind of go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I kind of go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I don't think you know this about me." And don't think you know this about me." And don't think you know this about me." And and I just want you to start the and I just want you to start the and I just want you to start the conversation there with the Lord about conversation there with the Lord about conversation there with the Lord about how you actually feel about confession how you actually feel about confession how you actually feel about confession and about how you hear his good news in and about how you hear his good news in and about how you hear his good news in light of that. I think that that's the light of that. I think that that's the light of that. I think that that's the first step. I'd want to get the kind of first step. I'd want to get the kind of first step. I'd want to get the kind of the good news of God's grace deep in the good news of God's grace deep in the good news of God's grace deep in their heart. And I'd want to start the their heart. And I'd want to start the their heart. And I'd want to start the conversation honestly there. meaning conversation honestly there. meaning conversation honestly there. meaning meaning confess how you really feel meaning confess how you really feel meaning confess how you really feel about confession about confession about confession >> like start where you are and if where >> like start where you are and if where >> like start where you are and if where you are is I don't really want to do it you are is I don't really want to do it you are is I don't really want to do it >> start the conversation there with the >> start the conversation there with the >> start the conversation there with the Lord so Lord so Lord so >> I think with a de having a developmental >> I think with a de having a developmental >> I think with a de having a developmental vision in mind if I'm beginning there vision in mind if I'm beginning there vision in mind if I'm beginning there for a few weeks or maybe even a few few for a few weeks or maybe even a few few for a few weeks or maybe even a few few months with somebody depending on how months with somebody depending on how months with somebody depending on how they're experiencing that I think the they're experiencing that I think the they're experiencing that I think the first steps into actually intentional first steps into actually intentional first steps into actually intentional confession in prayer would look confession in prayer would look confession in prayer would look something like praying the words of something like praying the words of something like praying the words of Psalm 139 uh verses 23 and 24. So it's Psalm 139 uh verses 23 and 24. So it's Psalm 139 uh verses 23 and 24. So it's the very end. Search me, oh Lord. Know the very end. Search me, oh Lord. Know the very end. Search me, oh Lord. Know my heart.

my heart. my heart. >> Try me and know my thoughts. See if >> Try me and know my thoughts. See if >> Try me and know my thoughts. See if there be any grievous way in me there be any grievous way in me there be any grievous way in me >> and lead me in the way everlasting. So >> and lead me in the way everlasting. So >> and lead me in the way everlasting. So I'd want to begin by just using the I'd want to begin by just using the I'd want to begin by just using the words of scripture to get me in. I I words of scripture to get me in. I I words of scripture to get me in. I I don't quite know how to talk to God don't quite know how to talk to God don't quite know how to talk to God about this. I don't quite know how to about this. I don't quite know how to about this. I don't quite know how to like intro my confession. You know a like intro my confession. You know a like intro my confession. You know a great way to do it? Just speak God's great way to do it? Just speak God's great way to do it? Just speak God's word back to him. word back to him. word back to him. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Start with his word. Here's a here's a >> Start with his word. Here's a here's a >> Start with his word. Here's a here's a prayer of Psalm 139 that's an invitation prayer of Psalm 139 that's an invitation prayer of Psalm 139 that's an invitation into God searching your heart and into God searching your heart and into God searching your heart and knowing you and specifically knowing knowing you and specifically knowing knowing you and specifically knowing grievous ways in you sin. So use that as grievous ways in you sin. So use that as grievous ways in you sin. So use that as a guide to begin confessing. And then a guide to begin confessing. And then a guide to begin confessing. And then the last thing I would say here is as the last thing I would say here is as the last thing I would say here is as you start to actually confess then you start to actually confess then you start to actually confess then specific sins in those times of prayer specific sins in those times of prayer specific sins in those times of prayer with kind of Psalm 139 as your your with kind of Psalm 139 as your your with kind of Psalm 139 as your your intro or your guide, intro or your guide, intro or your guide, take half steps. Mhm. take half steps. Mhm. take half steps. Mhm. >> Start with the sin you know. Start with >> Start with the sin you know. Start with >> Start with the sin you know. Start with the sin you feel ready to talk to God the sin you feel ready to talk to God the sin you feel ready to talk to God about. And um you may know there's other about. And um you may know there's other about. And um you may know there's other stuff lurking in the background that stuff lurking in the background that stuff lurking in the background that you're still kind of holding on to.

you're still kind of holding on to. you're still kind of holding on to. Okay. But be continue to begin where you Okay. But be continue to begin where you Okay. But be continue to begin where you are. Move towards the deeper over time. are. Move towards the deeper over time. are. Move towards the deeper over time. Um so I I think that's just kind of Um so I I think that's just kind of Um so I I think that's just kind of answering your question answering your question answering your question >> about prayer. I think maybe to pivot >> about prayer. I think maybe to pivot >> about prayer. I think maybe to pivot briefly connected to your last question briefly connected to your last question briefly connected to your last question about confessing to one another. about confessing to one another. about confessing to one another. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> I think I think here >> I think I think here >> I think I think here again a similar movement like again a similar movement like again a similar movement like if we're starting at square one. if we're starting at square one. if we're starting at square one. >> Mhm. Um, identify someone in your life >> Mhm. Um, identify someone in your life >> Mhm. Um, identify someone in your life who's a faithful follower of Christ who who's a faithful follower of Christ who who's a faithful follower of Christ who themselves wants to be committed to a themselves wants to be committed to a themselves wants to be committed to a life of confession and knowing God's life of confession and knowing God's life of confession and knowing God's grace and that that you kind of mutually grace and that that you kind of mutually grace and that that you kind of mutually agree, yeah, we we want to pursue this agree, yeah, we we want to pursue this agree, yeah, we we want to pursue this together and uh find someone you trust together and uh find someone you trust together and uh find someone you trust who can hold proper proper who can hold proper proper who can hold proper proper confidentiality. confidentiality. confidentiality. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Who you know cares about your life. And >> Who you know cares about your life. And >> Who you know cares about your life. And I think um if if you don't know who that I think um if if you don't know who that I think um if if you don't know who that person is yet, then like maybe first person is yet, then like maybe first person is yet, then like maybe first steps is getting more intentionally steps is getting more intentionally steps is getting more intentionally connected in the life of your church connected in the life of your church connected in the life of your church community where you can begin to community where you can begin to community where you can begin to cultivate relationships like that. But I cultivate relationships like that. But I cultivate relationships like that. But I I imagine many who are listening would I imagine many who are listening would I imagine many who are listening would say like I at least I think I know say like I at least I think I know say like I at least I think I know someone like that in my life you know someone like that in my life you know someone like that in my life you know maybe it is a spouse maybe it's a best maybe it is a spouse maybe it's a best maybe it is a spouse maybe it's a best friend you know friend you know friend you know >> um >> um >> um >> and and and just begin by again talking >> and and and just begin by again talking >> and and and just begin by again talking honestly about your fears and your honestly about your fears and your honestly about your fears and your anxieties anxieties anxieties >> about doing it like >> about doing it like >> about doing it like >> hey I I I think this is something we >> hey I I I think this is something we >> hey I I I think this is something we should do and I think it's good for us should do and I think it's good for us should do and I think it's good for us but if I'm really honest like kind of but if I'm really honest like kind of but if I'm really honest like kind of don't want to do it

don't want to do it don't want to do it >> comfortable you know begin by having >> comfortable you know begin by having >> comfortable you know begin by having that honest conversation and meeting one that honest conversation and meeting one that honest conversation and meeting one another there that that that ought to be another there that that that ought to be another there that that that ought to be the first step of kind of vulnerability. the first step of kind of vulnerability. the first step of kind of vulnerability. That makes sense, right? Rather than That makes sense, right? Rather than That makes sense, right? Rather than >> dive off the deep end of vulnerability, >> dive off the deep end of vulnerability, >> dive off the deep end of vulnerability, like like like >> wait in the kitty pool in vulnerability >> wait in the kitty pool in vulnerability >> wait in the kitty pool in vulnerability before you're ready to swim in the deep before you're ready to swim in the deep before you're ready to swim in the deep end. And I think from there, I think as end. And I think from there, I think as end. And I think from there, I think as the as the relationship develops, there the as the relationship develops, there the as the relationship develops, there needs to be some intentionality. We're needs to be some intentionality. We're needs to be some intentionality. We're going to we're going to meet, we're going to we're going to meet, we're going to we're going to meet, we're going to talk about this. going to talk about this. going to talk about this. >> Um otherwise, it would be very easy to >> Um otherwise, it would be very easy to >> Um otherwise, it would be very easy to kind of just happen not to not do it. kind of just happen not to not do it. kind of just happen not to not do it. >> Yeah. Oh, we missed it. Oh, we ended up >> Yeah. Oh, we missed it. Oh, we ended up >> Yeah. Oh, we missed it. Oh, we ended up talking about football the whole time. talking about football the whole time. talking about football the whole time. >> Yeah. What do you know? Right. Yeah. So, >> Yeah. What do you know? Right. Yeah. So, >> Yeah. What do you know? Right. Yeah. So, but I but I think the place to start but I but I think the place to start but I but I think the place to start with more intentional conversation, with more intentional conversation, with more intentional conversation, Jason, maybe to to close here on this Jason, maybe to to close here on this Jason, maybe to to close here on this point is just point is just point is just >> start by knowing one another's stories >> start by knowing one another's stories >> start by knowing one another's stories actually before you know one another's actually before you know one another's actually before you know one another's sins. And by that I mean make that first sins. And by that I mean make that first sins. And by that I mean make that first step of more significant vulnerability a step of more significant vulnerability a step of more significant vulnerability a a step of sharing ways that you've been a step of sharing ways that you've been a step of sharing ways that you've been hurt and painful experiences in your hurt and painful experiences in your hurt and painful experiences in your life and losses and fears and worries life and losses and fears and worries life and losses and fears and worries you have um that perhaps stem from you have um that perhaps stem from you have um that perhaps stem from childhood or prior relationships or childhood or prior relationships or childhood or prior relationships or share that story share that story share that story >> so that when you move to confession >> so that when you move to confession >> so that when you move to confession you're hearing one another for the you're hearing one another for the you're hearing one another for the through the lens of your whole life.

through the lens of your whole life. through the lens of your whole life. There's a there's a there's a learned There's a there's a there's a learned There's a there's a there's a learned kind of uh sympathy for one another's kind of uh sympathy for one another's kind of uh sympathy for one another's pains and and wounds. I think it makes pains and and wounds. I think it makes pains and and wounds. I think it makes us much better listeners of sin in a way us much better listeners of sin in a way us much better listeners of sin in a way that doesn't diminish the seriousness of that doesn't diminish the seriousness of that doesn't diminish the seriousness of sin, but can actually hear it um within sin, but can actually hear it um within sin, but can actually hear it um within a story of pain and loss and fear that a story of pain and loss and fear that a story of pain and loss and fear that often often often lies so much behind those sins in our lies so much behind those sins in our lies so much behind those sins in our lives, right? These become escapes or lives, right? These become escapes or lives, right? These become escapes or ways of kind of pacifying and dealing ways of kind of pacifying and dealing ways of kind of pacifying and dealing with things that have hurt us. And I with things that have hurt us. And I with things that have hurt us. And I think absent knowing that, it's think absent knowing that, it's think absent knowing that, it's difficult for us to listen well and with difficult for us to listen well and with difficult for us to listen well and with sympathy. And so then as you begin to sympathy. And so then as you begin to sympathy. And so then as you begin to move into actually confessing sin, it's move into actually confessing sin, it's move into actually confessing sin, it's the same recommendation I have in the same recommendation I have in the same recommendation I have in prayer. Begin where you feel ready. prayer. Begin where you feel ready. prayer. Begin where you feel ready. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Take half steps getting there. Begin >> Take half steps getting there. Begin >> Take half steps getting there. Begin with what you feel quote more at least with what you feel quote more at least with what you feel quote more at least more comfortable sharing and allow those more comfortable sharing and allow those more comfortable sharing and allow those first movements first movements first movements >> maybe to be driven by that life of >> maybe to be driven by that life of >> maybe to be driven by that life of prayer. So, meaning I guess the final prayer. So, meaning I guess the final prayer. So, meaning I guess the final note here is I'd want to wed these two note here is I'd want to wed these two note here is I'd want to wed these two together. together. together. >> Start with your own private prayer.

>> Start with your own private prayer. >> Start with your own private prayer. Don't make confession first happen with Don't make confession first happen with Don't make confession first happen with a confession partner. Start by learning a confession partner. Start by learning a confession partner. Start by learning how to talk to God about it. how to talk to God about it. how to talk to God about it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then as you bring that into >> And then as you bring that into >> And then as you bring that into conversation with another, I think those conversation with another, I think those conversation with another, I think those times of prayer, those can kind of fund times of prayer, those can kind of fund times of prayer, those can kind of fund the conversation with the other. You the conversation with the other. You the conversation with the other. You know, I was talking to the Lord about know, I was talking to the Lord about know, I was talking to the Lord about this and here's what I talked to the this and here's what I talked to the this and here's what I talked to the Lord about and I want to talk to you Lord about and I want to talk to you Lord about and I want to talk to you about it. about it. about it. >> And even here's how I kind of >> And even here's how I kind of >> And even here's how I kind of experienced God in that. like really experienced God in that. like really experienced God in that. like really felt like he met me in grace or you know felt like he met me in grace or you know felt like he met me in grace or you know what I shared it with him but I I don't what I shared it with him but I I don't what I shared it with him but I I don't know I I still just kind of feel bad know I I still just kind of feel bad know I I still just kind of feel bad about it. That's if I'm honest. You know about it. That's if I'm honest. You know about it. That's if I'm honest. You know I I know I know he meets me in grace but I I know I know he meets me in grace but I I know I know he meets me in grace but I don't really feel that way. I don't really feel that way. I don't really feel that way. >> I'm struggling with that. So use the >> I'm struggling with that. So use the >> I'm struggling with that. So use the time of of kind of personal prayer time of of kind of personal prayer time of of kind of personal prayer confession to be the kind of topic of confession to be the kind of topic of confession to be the kind of topic of conversation like I talked to God about conversation like I talked to God about conversation like I talked to God about this and now I'm going to talk to you this and now I'm going to talk to you this and now I'm going to talk to you about that and about how I experienced about that and about how I experienced about that and about how I experienced God in that and God in that and God in that and >> and continue to move a half step deeper >> and continue to move a half step deeper >> and continue to move a half step deeper into places that into places that into places that >> you know there's greater risk, greater >> you know there's greater risk, greater >> you know there's greater risk, greater degree of vulnerability as trust gets degree of vulnerability as trust gets degree of vulnerability as trust gets built. built. built. >> Yeah. I was thinking too I think the >> Yeah. I was thinking too I think the >> Yeah. I was thinking too I think the other side of the coin is true too. If other side of the coin is true too. If other side of the coin is true too. If you are constantly praying or I should you are constantly praying or I should you are constantly praying or I should say praying regularly for the other say praying regularly for the other say praying regularly for the other person just in your own personal prayer person just in your own personal prayer person just in your own personal prayer life if you're praying for the person life if you're praying for the person life if you're praying for the person >> regularly then when they bring something >> regularly then when they bring something >> regularly then when they bring something to you or you bring something to them to you or you bring something to them to you or you bring something to them you're like oh I've I've been praying you're like oh I've I've been praying you're like oh I've I've been praying for you I'm just going to include it's for you I'm just going to include it's for you I'm just going to include it's it's just goes into the flow. I've been it's just goes into the flow. I've been it's just goes into the flow. I've been thinking throughout this whole thinking throughout this whole thinking throughout this whole conversation about something that your conversation about something that your conversation about something that your friend in front of the pod Kyle Strobble friend in front of the pod Kyle Strobble friend in front of the pod Kyle Strobble said when he was on here talking about said when he was on here talking about said when he was on here talking about prayer a number of months ago. I like prayer a number of months ago. I like prayer a number of months ago. I like that guy.

that guy. that guy. >> He's a good guy, right? >> He's a good guy, right? >> He's a good guy, right? >> He's a good one. >> He's a good one. >> He's a good one. >> He said um he said there's nothing that >> He said um he said there's nothing that >> He said um he said there's nothing that you can pray for that Jesus hasn't you can pray for that Jesus hasn't you can pray for that Jesus hasn't already been praying for you. already been praying for you. already been praying for you. >> And what you're doing in prayer is >> And what you're doing in prayer is >> And what you're doing in prayer is you're entering almost into the river, you're entering almost into the river, you're entering almost into the river, the ongoing stream of Christ's prayer the ongoing stream of Christ's prayer the ongoing stream of Christ's prayer for for you. So if so to me that that for for you. So if so to me that that for for you. So if so to me that that makes prayerful confession a little bit makes prayerful confession a little bit makes prayerful confession a little bit more comfortable saying okay well Jesus more comfortable saying okay well Jesus more comfortable saying okay well Jesus is already praying about this for me is already praying about this for me is already praying about this for me >> so I can enter into that with Jesus and >> so I can enter into that with Jesus and >> so I can enter into that with Jesus and the same thing can be true of your the same thing can be true of your the same thing can be true of your prayer partner or or whoever it is that prayer partner or or whoever it is that prayer partner or or whoever it is that that you are confessing personally to that you are confessing personally to that you are confessing personally to also is if they are constantly being in also is if they are constantly being in also is if they are constantly being in prayer for you prayer for you prayer for you >> then what you bring to them is okay I'm >> then what you bring to them is okay I'm >> then what you bring to them is okay I'm going to add that into h how I'm praying going to add that into h how I'm praying going to add that into h how I'm praying for you. So if it's it's if we think of for you. So if it's it's if we think of for you. So if it's it's if we think of this as this constant stream of this as this constant stream of this as this constant stream of conversation with God that's being done conversation with God that's being done conversation with God that's being done from from from Jesus to the father from you to the Jesus to the father from you to the Jesus to the father from you to the father to the you know your prayer father to the you know your prayer father to the you know your prayer partner to the if there's this constant partner to the if there's this constant partner to the if there's this constant thing yes then you're it's feels a lot thing yes then you're it's feels a lot thing yes then you're it's feels a lot less uh scary or cumbersome or whatever less uh scary or cumbersome or whatever less uh scary or cumbersome or whatever it is to feel like I'm adding into it.

it is to feel like I'm adding into it. it is to feel like I'm adding into it. It's no, it's we're just it's a part of It's no, it's we're just it's a part of It's no, it's we're just it's a part of the constant conversation that we're all the constant conversation that we're all the constant conversation that we're all in together in prayer. in together in prayer. in together in prayer. >> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think >> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think >> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think it's really well said and I I think what it's really well said and I I think what it's really well said and I I think what I shared and what you shared, I I I I shared and what you shared, I I I I shared and what you shared, I I I really hope folks take to heart because really hope folks take to heart because really hope folks take to heart because I think one of the things that can show I think one of the things that can show I think one of the things that can show up for us all this talk of sin. up for us all this talk of sin. up for us all this talk of sin. Um, and I'm mindful of this in my book. Um, and I'm mindful of this in my book. Um, and I'm mindful of this in my book. Um Um Um >> I I'm I think fairly vulnerable in the >> I I'm I think fairly vulnerable in the >> I I'm I think fairly vulnerable in the book. Uh very honest about the ways book. Uh very honest about the ways book. Uh very honest about the ways these sins have shown up in my life and these sins have shown up in my life and these sins have shown up in my life and in particular my pastoral vocation in in particular my pastoral vocation in in particular my pastoral vocation in ways that for some might be surprising. ways that for some might be surprising. ways that for some might be surprising. Um, I I think Um, I I think Um, I I think in that when we experience that there in that when we experience that there in that when we experience that there can be this sense of, oh, I know this is can be this sense of, oh, I know this is can be this sense of, oh, I know this is right and I know I should do it and but right and I know I should do it and but right and I know I should do it and but oh my goodness, I feel like I'm being oh my goodness, I feel like I'm being oh my goodness, I feel like I'm being called into like from zero to 100 in called into like from zero to 100 in called into like from zero to 100 in terms of vulnerability. terms of vulnerability. terms of vulnerability. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And what I want to say is no. Um, >> And what I want to say is no. Um, >> And what I want to say is no. Um, there's a there's a developmental there's a there's a developmental there's a there's a developmental invitation here into a life of invitation here into a life of invitation here into a life of confession. And the Lord is patient and confession. And the Lord is patient and confession. And the Lord is patient and kind. And the good news is the spirit kind. And the good news is the spirit kind. And the good news is the spirit already groans for you in places too already groans for you in places too already groans for you in places too deep for words. He's already interceding deep for words. He's already interceding deep for words. He's already interceding on your behalf on your behalf on your behalf um in places of kind of deep rumbling in um in places of kind of deep rumbling in um in places of kind of deep rumbling in your soul. And likewise the son Christ your soul. And likewise the son Christ your soul. And likewise the son Christ intercedes on your behalf intercedes on your behalf intercedes on your behalf um the right hand of the father. like um the right hand of the father. like um the right hand of the father. like the deepest things of your life, the deepest things of your life, the deepest things of your life, including your sin, are already being um

including your sin, are already being um including your sin, are already being um brought before the father by son and brought before the father by son and brought before the father by son and spirit. And so whether you get there or spirit. And so whether you get there or spirit. And so whether you get there or not, not, not, >> they're getting there, quote unquote. >> they're getting there, quote unquote. >> they're getting there, quote unquote. And so And so And so >> embrace kind of the invitation to kind >> embrace kind of the invitation to kind >> embrace kind of the invitation to kind of a gentle, patient movement. There of a gentle, patient movement. There of a gentle, patient movement. There there is I I I don't want to to avoid there is I I I don't want to to avoid there is I I I don't want to to avoid this. There is this. There is this. There is >> courage that's called for here. Sure. in >> courage that's called for here. Sure. in >> courage that's called for here. Sure. in the gospel there is the risk of the gospel there is the risk of the gospel there is the risk of vulnerability and and I think we can't vulnerability and and I think we can't vulnerability and and I think we can't kind of remove those things or we just kind of remove those things or we just kind of remove those things or we just kind of stop talking about confession. kind of stop talking about confession. kind of stop talking about confession. Um but I think there's there is a way of Um but I think there's there is a way of Um but I think there's there is a way of kind of holding that life of prayer kind of holding that life of prayer kind of holding that life of prayer >> in a bigger vision of of God's very life >> in a bigger vision of of God's very life >> in a bigger vision of of God's very life of love for us. how we're caught up in of love for us. how we're caught up in of love for us. how we're caught up in this uh this um intercession of son and this uh this um intercession of son and this uh this um intercession of son and spirit on our behalf and um his grace spirit on our behalf and um his grace spirit on our behalf and um his grace and his patience with us as we mature in and his patience with us as we mature in and his patience with us as we mature in in in the faith. And so don't don't in in the faith. And so don't don't in in the faith. And so don't don't don't hear this and go I got to I got to don't hear this and go I got to I got to don't hear this and go I got to I got to jump in the the deep end of the pool jump in the the deep end of the pool jump in the the deep end of the pool right away. In fact, what I would say is right away. In fact, what I would say is right away. In fact, what I would say is if if you find yourself actually kind of if if you find yourself actually kind of if if you find yourself actually kind of doing that, there's actually probably doing that, there's actually probably doing that, there's actually probably even a certain kind of temptation in even a certain kind of temptation in even a certain kind of temptation in that even in itself, right? There's a that even in itself, right? There's a that even in itself, right? There's a >> um just to all of a sudden kind of lay >> um just to all of a sudden kind of lay >> um just to all of a sudden kind of lay bear everything without bear everything without bear everything without >> right kind of entering in patiently >> right kind of entering in patiently >> right kind of entering in patiently recognizing where you are recognizing where you are recognizing where you are developmentally. No, it's okay that I'm developmentally. No, it's okay that I'm developmentally. No, it's okay that I'm here and I need this is something I need here and I need this is something I need here and I need this is something I need to grow in and Lord, I want to take the to grow in and Lord, I want to take the to grow in and Lord, I want to take the first step. I want to show up where I am first step. I want to show up where I am first step. I want to show up where I am and meet you there and ask that your

and meet you there and ask that your and meet you there and ask that your spirit lead me and I'm I want to keep spirit lead me and I'm I want to keep spirit lead me and I'm I want to keep showing up willingly to that. showing up willingly to that. showing up willingly to that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Trusting that >> Trusting that >> Trusting that >> as with all things in the Christian >> as with all things in the Christian >> as with all things in the Christian life, there's a growth there's a growing life, there's a growth there's a growing life, there's a growth there's a growing here. Yeah. here. Yeah. here. Yeah. >> In this, right? There's a maturing here >> In this, right? There's a maturing here >> In this, right? There's a maturing here to be done. to be done. to be done. >> Um so I I would hope folks would receive >> Um so I I would hope folks would receive >> Um so I I would hope folks would receive that invitation because I do know I know that invitation because I do know I know that invitation because I do know I know how some of this can be heard. Like oh how some of this can be heard. Like oh how some of this can be heard. Like oh my goodness, now I got to start just my goodness, now I got to start just my goodness, now I got to start just wham wham wham next small group next week. I'm showing next small group next week. I'm showing next small group next week. I'm showing up and just like everything on the table up and just like everything on the table up and just like everything on the table like actually no that probably wouldn't like actually no that probably wouldn't like actually no that probably wouldn't be a good way to get started you know be a good way to get started you know be a good way to get started you know like um like um like um >> yeah that would be called uh >> yeah that would be called uh >> yeah that would be called uh inappropriate inappropriate inappropriate >> yeah start with you know guys I'm >> yeah start with you know guys I'm >> yeah start with you know guys I'm feeling convicted about God's call to feeling convicted about God's call to feeling convicted about God's call to confess our sins to one another can we confess our sins to one another can we confess our sins to one another can we just begin by having a conversation just begin by having a conversation just begin by having a conversation about that like how do you feel about about that like how do you feel about about that like how do you feel about that how do we feel about that what that how do we feel about that what that how do we feel about that what would that look like to do that how how would that look like to do that how how would that look like to do that how how could we gently move towards that could we gently move towards that could we gently move towards that together you know so again individually together you know so again individually together you know so again individually communally corporately communally corporately communally corporately >> I think um embrace a developmental >> I think um embrace a developmental >> I think um embrace a developmental journey here into of confession. journey here into of confession. journey here into of confession. >> Well, as we said, the book is Pastoral >> Well, as we said, the book is Pastoral >> Well, as we said, the book is Pastoral Confession, and I will put the link in Confession, and I will put the link in Confession, and I will put the link in the show notes. I mean, if you're not the show notes. I mean, if you're not the show notes. I mean, if you're not going to pick it up after this going to pick it up after this going to pick it up after this conversation, I don't know what you're conversation, I don't know what you're conversation, I don't know what you're doing. I highly encourage you to pick it doing. I highly encourage you to pick it doing. I highly encourage you to pick it up and check it out. Jamon, would you up and check it out. Jamon, would you up and check it out. Jamon, would you mind closing us by praying for people as mind closing us by praying for people as mind closing us by praying for people as they sit with everything that we've they sit with everything that we've they sit with everything that we've talked about this sit with this idea of talked about this sit with this idea of talked about this sit with this idea of confession, this call to confession?

confession, this call to confession? confession, this call to confession? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And um yeah, it would be great if you >> And um yeah, it would be great if you >> And um yeah, it would be great if you would close us with with that prayer. would close us with with that prayer. would close us with with that prayer. >> Yeah, I'd be honored to. Well, Father, >> Yeah, I'd be honored to. Well, Father, >> Yeah, I'd be honored to. Well, Father, we do want to hear the good news of your we do want to hear the good news of your we do want to hear the good news of your gospel here. And all this talk of of sin gospel here. And all this talk of of sin gospel here. And all this talk of of sin undoubtedly provokes an awareness of undoubtedly provokes an awareness of undoubtedly provokes an awareness of certain sins in our own life. certain sins in our own life. certain sins in our own life. And And And and Lord, there's such a temptation and Lord, there's such a temptation and Lord, there's such a temptation there to to hide and to cover, uh to there to to hide and to cover, uh to there to to hide and to cover, uh to move to self- condemnation, move to self- condemnation, move to self- condemnation, to feel kind of stuck in shame and to feel kind of stuck in shame and to feel kind of stuck in shame and guilt. guilt. guilt. And so here we we Lord, we want would And so here we we Lord, we want would And so here we we Lord, we want would you give us open hearts by your spirit you give us open hearts by your spirit you give us open hearts by your spirit to hear your good news. There is now no to hear your good news. There is now no to hear your good news. There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Lord, we we we thank you so much for the Lord, we we we thank you so much for the Lord, we we we thank you so much for the forgiveness of our sins. We thank you so forgiveness of our sins. We thank you so forgiveness of our sins. We thank you so much for the accomplished work much for the accomplished work much for the accomplished work of salvation and rescue from our sin in the person of Christ Jesus and his in the person of Christ Jesus and his work upon the cross.

work upon the cross. work upon the cross. We thank you so much Lord that you have We thank you so much Lord that you have We thank you so much Lord that you have poured forth your spirit into our poured forth your spirit into our poured forth your spirit into our hearts. hearts. hearts. um your spirit who is doing a work even um your spirit who is doing a work even um your spirit who is doing a work even now of opening our hearts more and more now of opening our hearts more and more now of opening our hearts more and more to your life of love. Your holy spirit to your life of love. Your holy spirit to your life of love. Your holy spirit who is committed to forming us in a life who is committed to forming us in a life who is committed to forming us in a life of holiness. of holiness. of holiness. So here as we perhaps are aware of sins So here as we perhaps are aware of sins So here as we perhaps are aware of sins in our life things come to mind Lord in our life things come to mind Lord in our life things come to mind Lord what what feels most appropriate is to what what feels most appropriate is to what what feels most appropriate is to end with a simple confession. We just end with a simple confession. We just end with a simple confession. We just present these things to you, Lord. And present these things to you, Lord. And present these things to you, Lord. And we want to open our hearts here deeply we want to open our hearts here deeply we want to open our hearts here deeply to your grace, to your goodness, to your to your grace, to your goodness, to your to your grace, to your goodness, to your mercy, to your loving kindness. We thank you so much for who you are and We thank you so much for who you are and for how you meet us, Lord, in places of for how you meet us, Lord, in places of for how you meet us, Lord, in places of sin and failure. sin and failure. sin and failure. How amazing is your grace would that we How amazing is your grace would that we How amazing is your grace would that we live by your grace alone. pray these live by your grace alone. pray these live by your grace alone. pray these things in Jesus name. Amen.

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