E437 How to Approach Life's Hardest Questions with Lee Strobel (Rewind)

[Music] [Music] This is a Saddleback Church podcast. This is a Saddleback Church podcast. This is a Saddleback Church podcast. >> Hey friends, welcome back to Doable >> Hey friends, welcome back to Doable >> Hey friends, welcome back to Doable Disciplehip. This past weekend at Disciplehip. This past weekend at Disciplehip. This past weekend at Saddleach Church, we uh had the pleasure Saddleach Church, we uh had the pleasure Saddleach Church, we uh had the pleasure of having Lee Strobble join us. Uh you of having Lee Strobble join us. Uh you of having Lee Strobble join us. Uh you all know Lee Stroel from his uh all know Lee Stroel from his uh all know Lee Stroel from his uh well-known books, The Case for Christ well-known books, The Case for Christ well-known books, The Case for Christ and all of the Case 4 series. Well, Lee and all of the Case 4 series. Well, Lee and all of the Case 4 series. Well, Lee has a new book out now called Seeing the has a new book out now called Seeing the has a new book out now called Seeing the Supernatural. And so he was with us at Supernatural. And so he was with us at Supernatural. And so he was with us at Saddleback this last weekend to speak on Saddleback this last weekend to speak on Saddleback this last weekend to speak on that. So I'm going to put the link to uh that. So I'm going to put the link to uh that. So I'm going to put the link to uh that message in the show notes. So I I that message in the show notes. So I I that message in the show notes. So I I encourage you to check that out. Join us encourage you to check that out. Join us encourage you to check that out. Join us at the online campus watch online and at the online campus watch online and at the online campus watch online and you can uh see Lee's message from his you can uh see Lee's message from his you can uh see Lee's message from his new book, Seeing the Supernatural. I had new book, Seeing the Supernatural. I had new book, Seeing the Supernatural. I had the privilege of interviewing Lee a the privilege of interviewing Lee a the privilege of interviewing Lee a couple of years ago when um another one couple of years ago when um another one couple of years ago when um another one of his books was coming out called Is of his books was coming out called Is of his books was coming out called Is God Real? So, if you listened to Lee on God Real? So, if you listened to Lee on God Real? So, if you listened to Lee on the weekend and you want to hear more the weekend and you want to hear more the weekend and you want to hear more from Lee, this episode is for you from Lee, this episode is for you from Lee, this episode is for you because we're going to uh rerun that because we're going to uh rerun that because we're going to uh rerun that conversation about on is God Real where conversation about on is God Real where conversation about on is God Real where we just talk about what it means to we just talk about what it means to we just talk about what it means to tackle life's hardest questions. Um I tackle life's hardest questions. Um I tackle life's hardest questions. Um I talk with Lee about um what he's talk with Lee about um what he's talk with Lee about um what he's learning from college students, the learning from college students, the learning from college students, the questions that they're answering. We questions that they're answering. We questions that they're answering. We talk about how we approach some, you talk about how we approach some, you talk about how we approach some, you know, these biggest questions in life.

know, these biggest questions in life. know, these biggest questions in life. So, it's a great followup. um if you So, it's a great followup. um if you So, it's a great followup. um if you listen to him from his weekend message listen to him from his weekend message listen to him from his weekend message at Saddleback and then listen to this at Saddleback and then listen to this at Saddleback and then listen to this conversation on um answering life's conversation on um answering life's conversation on um answering life's toughest questions. Uh so without toughest questions. Uh so without toughest questions. Uh so without further ado, here's my conversation with further ado, here's my conversation with further ado, here's my conversation with Lee Strobble. Lee Strobble. Lee Strobble. [Music] >> Please dribble. Thank you so much for >> Please dribble. Thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate your joining us today. Really appreciate your joining us today. Really appreciate your time. Well, I appreciate the time. Well, I appreciate the time. Well, I appreciate the opportunity. You know, I love Saddleback opportunity. You know, I love Saddleback opportunity. You know, I love Saddleback having been a teaching pastor there a having been a teaching pastor there a having been a teaching pastor there a number of years ago and still love the number of years ago and still love the number of years ago and still love the people, still love the church and always people, still love the church and always people, still love the church and always grateful to participate. grateful to participate. grateful to participate. >> And the people in the church still love >> And the people in the church still love >> And the people in the church still love you. I remember uh I remember seeing you you. I remember uh I remember seeing you you. I remember uh I remember seeing you I think you came out a number of years I think you came out a number of years I think you came out a number of years ago for our almonds and lecture series ago for our almonds and lecture series ago for our almonds and lecture series on apologetics and I on apologetics and I on apologetics and I >> right >> right >> right >> I remember that weekend well. So So >> I remember that weekend well. So So >> I remember that weekend well. So So again, thank you for your time. I I'm again, thank you for your time. I I'm again, thank you for your time. I I'm really excited to dive into this topic really excited to dive into this topic really excited to dive into this topic of apologetics and I I I I've been using of apologetics and I I I I've been using of apologetics and I I I I've been using this question frame in a number of this question frame in a number of this question frame in a number of episodes recently and it's really episodes recently and it's really episodes recently and it's really elicited some some good thinking, some elicited some some good thinking, some elicited some some good thinking, some good conversation. So I want to pose it good conversation. So I want to pose it good conversation. So I want to pose it this way.

this way. this way. >> What are we getting wrong about >> What are we getting wrong about >> What are we getting wrong about apologetics? apologetics? apologetics? >> Yeah. Um good question. I say a few >> Yeah. Um good question. I say a few >> Yeah. Um good question. I say a few things. Uh first of all, I think a lot things. Uh first of all, I think a lot things. Uh first of all, I think a lot of people what they get wrong is of people what they get wrong is of people what they get wrong is thinking that apologetics is optional. thinking that apologetics is optional. thinking that apologetics is optional. >> Um you know, actually 1 Peter 3:15 says >> Um you know, actually 1 Peter 3:15 says >> Um you know, actually 1 Peter 3:15 says to every follower of Jesus Christ that to every follower of Jesus Christ that to every follower of Jesus Christ that we're to always be prepared to give an we're to always be prepared to give an we're to always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks us to give the answer to anyone who asks us to give the answer to anyone who asks us to give the reason for the hope that we have, but to reason for the hope that we have, but to reason for the hope that we have, but to do it gently and respectfully. And so do it gently and respectfully. And so do it gently and respectfully. And so that's a that's a a command for all that's a that's a a command for all that's a that's a a command for all followers of Jesus to be will be ready followers of Jesus to be will be ready followers of Jesus to be will be ready not only to explain the gospel and share not only to explain the gospel and share not only to explain the gospel and share the gospel but to uh defend the gospel the gospel but to uh defend the gospel the gospel but to uh defend the gospel and give reasons why we believe what we and give reasons why we believe what we and give reasons why we believe what we believe. I think some people think ah believe. I think some people think ah believe. I think some people think ah it's optional. If you need it you use it's optional. If you need it you use it's optional. If you need it you use it. If you don't you shouldn't. But um it. If you don't you shouldn't. But um it. If you don't you shouldn't. But um the other thing I think is a lot of the other thing I think is a lot of the other thing I think is a lot of people think um that you can't argue people think um that you can't argue people think um that you can't argue people into the kingdom of God. I've people into the kingdom of God. I've people into the kingdom of God. I've heard that a lot. Well, you can't argue heard that a lot. Well, you can't argue heard that a lot. Well, you can't argue people in the kingdom of God. So, I use people in the kingdom of God. So, I use people in the kingdom of God. So, I use apologetics. Well, that's just a apologetics. Well, that's just a apologetics. Well, that's just a misunderstanding I think of apologetics.

misunderstanding I think of apologetics. misunderstanding I think of apologetics. The way I picture it is, you know, if The way I picture it is, you know, if The way I picture it is, you know, if you drive down a highway and you see you drive down a highway and you see you drive down a highway and you see those construction barriers, yeah, along those construction barriers, yeah, along those construction barriers, yeah, along the road, uh those are like barriers the road, uh those are like barriers the road, uh those are like barriers that people have between them and God. that people have between them and God. that people have between them and God. >> And what apologetics does, it just >> And what apologetics does, it just >> And what apologetics does, it just knocks down those barriers so that we knocks down those barriers so that we knocks down those barriers so that we can ultimately come face to face with can ultimately come face to face with can ultimately come face to face with God and uh be able to then make the God and uh be able to then make the God and uh be able to then make the choice to receive him as our forgiver. choice to receive him as our forgiver. choice to receive him as our forgiver. and leader. and leader. and leader. >> Yeah. So, I think it's, you know, it's >> Yeah. So, I think it's, you know, it's >> Yeah. So, I think it's, you know, it's it's it's not optional. It's it's it's it's not optional. It's it's it's it's not optional. It's it's mandatory and and it works. I mean, mandatory and and it works. I mean, mandatory and and it works. I mean, that's the other thing. It it it works that's the other thing. It it it works that's the other thing. It it it works because God is a rational creature and because God is a rational creature and because God is a rational creature and we are rational creatures we are rational creatures we are rational creatures and consequently it it syncs up that we and consequently it it syncs up that we and consequently it it syncs up that we should be able to use some rational should be able to use some rational should be able to use some rational arguments and evidence to tell people arguments and evidence to tell people arguments and evidence to tell people about God. Well, I think that's I think about God. Well, I think that's I think about God. Well, I think that's I think that's an important point because if we that's an important point because if we that's an important point because if we are called to go and make disciples of are called to go and make disciples of are called to go and make disciples of all nations, if we look at it from a a a all nations, if we look at it from a a a all nations, if we look at it from a a a great commission idea and we're called great commission idea and we're called great commission idea and we're called to have an answer for all questions, to have an answer for all questions, to have an answer for all questions, >> that that is implying that questions >> that that is implying that questions >> that that is implying that questions will likely come is is you can go and will likely come is is you can go and will likely come is is you can go and share the good news.

share the good news. share the good news. >> But people will have questions because >> But people will have questions because >> But people will have questions because as they have lived their lives, have as they have lived their lives, have as they have lived their lives, have gone through things, they've probably gone through things, they've probably gone through things, they've probably thought about things. They've thought thought about things. They've thought thought about things. They've thought about the nature of reality, of science, about the nature of reality, of science, about the nature of reality, of science, all this stuff. And they've all this stuff. And they've all this stuff. And they've >> and they may come up with all these >> and they may come up with all these >> and they may come up with all these questions. And if if you don't have the questions. And if if you don't have the questions. And if if you don't have the answer, if you say, you know what, answer, if you say, you know what, answer, if you say, you know what, that's a great point, you know, if or that's a great point, you know, if or that's a great point, you know, if or you know what, you know what, you know what, >> I have no idea that bamboozles me, then >> I have no idea that bamboozles me, then >> I have no idea that bamboozles me, then then you're really not taking that next then you're really not taking that next then you're really not taking that next step, you know. And so I I love that step, you know. And so I I love that step, you know. And so I I love that idea of breaking down these barriers idea of breaking down these barriers idea of breaking down these barriers because really it's just saying, "Hey, because really it's just saying, "Hey, because really it's just saying, "Hey, >> there there are answers to a lot of >> there there are answers to a lot of >> there there are answers to a lot of these things. There are there's a lot of these things. There are there's a lot of these things. There are there's a lot of thinking that's been done and and God thinking that's been done and and God thinking that's been done and and God doesn't leave us to our own devices in doesn't leave us to our own devices in doesn't leave us to our own devices in that." that." that." >> That's that's exactly right. I mean, >> That's that's exactly right. I mean, >> That's that's exactly right. I mean, 2,000 years of church history where 2,000 years of church history where 2,000 years of church history where virtually every question has come up virtually every question has come up virtually every question has come up along the way and thoughtful Christians along the way and thoughtful Christians along the way and thoughtful Christians have provided responses that are have provided responses that are have provided responses that are biblical and and also make sense because biblical and and also make sense because biblical and and also make sense because they are biblical. they are biblical. they are biblical. >> And um so I think we have to encourage >> And um so I think we have to encourage >> And um so I think we have to encourage questions in people. It's okay to let questions in people. It's okay to let questions in people. It's okay to let people know it's fine to have questions.

people know it's fine to have questions. people know it's fine to have questions. Don't be embarrassed to have questions. Don't be embarrassed to have questions. Don't be embarrassed to have questions. >> Uh you know, you think of John the >> Uh you know, you think of John the >> Uh you know, you think of John the Baptist. If anybody should have known Baptist. If anybody should have known Baptist. If anybody should have known the identity of Jesus being the son of the identity of Jesus being the son of the identity of Jesus being the son of God, it was John the Baptist. But he God, it was John the Baptist. But he God, it was John the Baptist. But he gets arrested and then he starts gets arrested and then he starts gets arrested and then he starts wrestling with doubts and questions and wrestling with doubts and questions and wrestling with doubts and questions and he wonders is is Jesus really the one he wonders is is Jesus really the one he wonders is is Jesus really the one we've been waiting for. we've been waiting for. we've been waiting for. >> So what does he do? Instead of just >> So what does he do? Instead of just >> So what does he do? Instead of just wallowing in that, he sends his wallowing in that, he sends his wallowing in that, he sends his followers to go track Jesus down and ask followers to go track Jesus down and ask followers to go track Jesus down and ask him point blank, are you the one we've him point blank, are you the one we've him point blank, are you the one we've been waiting for? We to wait for been waiting for? We to wait for been waiting for? We to wait for somebody else. somebody else. somebody else. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So how does Jesus react? Does he get >> So how does Jesus react? Does he get >> So how does Jesus react? Does he get mad? How dare John ask a question or mad? How dare John ask a question or mad? How dare John ask a question or express a hesitation about my identity? express a hesitation about my identity? express a hesitation about my identity? No. He says, quote, "Go back to John and No. He says, quote, "Go back to John and No. He says, quote, "Go back to John and tell him about what you've seen and tell him about what you've seen and tell him about what you've seen and heard." The blind receive sight, the heard." The blind receive sight, the heard." The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are lame walk, those who have leprosy are lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to raised, and the good news is preached to raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. In other words, tell them the poor. In other words, tell them the poor. In other words, tell them about the evidence that you've seen with about the evidence that you've seen with about the evidence that you've seen with your own eyes. It convinces you that I your own eyes. It convinces you that I your own eyes. It convinces you that I am the one I claim to be. So, they go am the one I claim to be. So, they go am the one I claim to be. So, they go back and they do that. But this doesn't back and they do that. But this doesn't back and they do that. But this doesn't uh disqualify John from any role in the uh disqualify John from any role in the uh disqualify John from any role in the kingdom of God because he dared to ask a kingdom of God because he dared to ask a kingdom of God because he dared to ask a question. It's after this incident that question. It's after this incident that question. It's after this incident that Jesus gets up before a group and says, Jesus gets up before a group and says, Jesus gets up before a group and says, "Among those born of women, there's no "Among those born of women, there's no "Among those born of women, there's no one greater than John."

one greater than John." one greater than John." >> John the guy who dared to ask a >> John the guy who dared to ask a >> John the guy who dared to ask a question. So I think we have to let question. So I think we have to let question. So I think we have to let Christians and spiritual seekers know Christians and spiritual seekers know Christians and spiritual seekers know that it's okay to ask questions. The key that it's okay to ask questions. The key that it's okay to ask questions. The key thing is to pursue answers. thing is to pursue answers. thing is to pursue answers. >> Yeah. And and don't forget that call >> Yeah. And and don't forget that call >> Yeah. And and don't forget that call from the great commandment to love God from the great commandment to love God from the great commandment to love God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and with all of your heart, soul, mind, and with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength. That's right. Oh, it there's strength. That's right. Oh, it there's strength. That's right. Oh, it there's that encouragement to to put that put that encouragement to to put that put that encouragement to to put that put the effort of intellectual honesty and the effort of intellectual honesty and the effort of intellectual honesty and thinking into your faith and knowing thinking into your faith and knowing thinking into your faith and knowing that God will meet you there. That that that God will meet you there. That that that God will meet you there. That that and um and that's that encouragement and um and that's that encouragement and um and that's that encouragement too. Any pursuit of apologetic too. Any pursuit of apologetic too. Any pursuit of apologetic understanding is not only for the understanding is not only for the understanding is not only for the benefit of others but for your own self benefit of others but for your own self benefit of others but for your own self as well as you continue to grow and hone as well as you continue to grow and hone as well as you continue to grow and hone and bolster your faith. and bolster your faith. and bolster your faith. >> Absolutely. It it deepens your own faith >> Absolutely. It it deepens your own faith >> Absolutely. It it deepens your own faith and it prepares you and gives you and it prepares you and gives you and it prepares you and gives you confidence to be able to share your confidence to be able to share your confidence to be able to share your faith with others. And Jason, the other faith with others. And Jason, the other faith with others. And Jason, the other thing is, you know, we live in an thing is, you know, we live in an thing is, you know, we live in an increasingly skeptical world, even at increasingly skeptical world, even at increasingly skeptical world, even at sometimes a hostile world toward the sometimes a hostile world toward the sometimes a hostile world toward the faith.

faith. faith. >> Um, I was talking to a guy whose >> Um, I was talking to a guy whose >> Um, I was talking to a guy whose granddaughter was six years old. granddaughter was six years old. granddaughter was six years old. >> She was going to public school. She was >> She was going to public school. She was >> She was going to public school. She was in kindergarten. She was on the in kindergarten. She was on the in kindergarten. She was on the playground during recess and the other playground during recess and the other playground during recess and the other children were making fun of her and children were making fun of her and children were making fun of her and taunting her because she believes in taunting her because she believes in taunting her because she believes in God. Mhm. God. Mhm. God. Mhm. >> Oh, you believe in fairy tales. You >> Oh, you believe in fairy tales. You >> Oh, you believe in fairy tales. You believe in makebelieve. And you know, believe in makebelieve. And you know, believe in makebelieve. And you know, our grandchildren, our children, our our grandchildren, our children, our our grandchildren, our children, our great grandchildren, our friends and great grandchildren, our friends and great grandchildren, our friends and relatives, they're going to face relatives, they're going to face relatives, they're going to face increasing skepticism about their faith increasing skepticism about their faith increasing skepticism about their faith more than other generations have perhaps more than other generations have perhaps more than other generations have perhaps or some other generation, certainly our or some other generation, certainly our or some other generation, certainly our generation. And so generation. And so generation. And so >> we have to be prepared to equip them. >> we have to be prepared to equip them. >> we have to be prepared to equip them. And so when we are ready to give an And so when we are ready to give an And so when we are ready to give an answer, we can pass that along to our answer, we can pass that along to our answer, we can pass that along to our children, our grandchildren. Here's children, our grandchildren. Here's children, our grandchildren. Here's here's some things to understand about here's some things to understand about here's some things to understand about why we believe what we believe. why we believe what we believe. why we believe what we believe. >> So you've been writing now about >> So you've been writing now about >> So you've been writing now about apologetics apologetics apologetics and meeting with people who have and meeting with people who have and meeting with people who have questions for decades now. One of the questions for decades now. One of the questions for decades now. One of the things that I know you at least used to things that I know you at least used to things that I know you at least used to do, I'm not sure if you still do this, do, I'm not sure if you still do this, do, I'm not sure if you still do this, but when you are at an airport, often but when you are at an airport, often but when you are at an airport, often times you'll say, "Hey, I'm at this gate times you'll say, "Hey, I'm at this gate times you'll say, "Hey, I'm at this gate or I'm at this area of the airport. If or I'm at this area of the airport. If or I'm at this area of the airport. If you have questions, come and find me. I you have questions, come and find me. I you have questions, come and find me. I happy to talk about that with you.

happy to talk about that with you. happy to talk about that with you. >> So, so you've been hearing people's >> So, so you've been hearing people's >> So, so you've been hearing people's questions for decades now. questions for decades now. questions for decades now. >> What would surprise Christians than to >> What would surprise Christians than to >> What would surprise Christians than to learn about what questions people are learn about what questions people are learn about what questions people are asking? asking? asking? >> Well, you know, things have changed a >> Well, you know, things have changed a >> Well, you know, things have changed a bit. I will say the number one question bit. I will say the number one question bit. I will say the number one question that you get and I did a national survey that you get and I did a national survey that you get and I did a national survey a few years ago on this where I asked uh a few years ago on this where I asked uh a few years ago on this where I asked uh a cross-section of Americans if you a cross-section of Americans if you a cross-section of Americans if you could ask God any one question and you could ask God any one question and you could ask God any one question and you knew he'd give you an answer right now knew he'd give you an answer right now knew he'd give you an answer right now what would you ask him and by far the what would you ask him and by far the what would you ask him and by far the number one question is some permutation number one question is some permutation number one question is some permutation of why would a loving God allow of why would a loving God allow of why would a loving God allow suffering in the world suffering in the world suffering in the world >> that's number one and that has endured >> that's number one and that has endured >> that's number one and that has endured through the generations but this through the generations but this through the generations but this interestingly though a new question that interestingly though a new question that interestingly though a new question that is really in some philosophers opinion is really in some philosophers opinion is really in some philosophers opinion has become the number two objection to has become the number two objection to has become the number two objection to Christianity has to do with the Christianity has to do with the Christianity has to do with the hiddenness of God. hiddenness of God. hiddenness of God. >> Um if God is real, why is he so hidden? >> Um if God is real, why is he so hidden? >> Um if God is real, why is he so hidden? Why doesn't he make himself more Why doesn't he make himself more Why doesn't he make himself more obviously evident that there be no doubt obviously evident that there be no doubt obviously evident that there be no doubt that he exists? And uh you know, John that he exists? And uh you know, John that he exists? And uh you know, John Steinard, who was the um musician, the Steinard, who was the um musician, the Steinard, who was the um musician, the the singer, the vocalist for the the singer, the vocalist for the the singer, the vocalist for the Christian rock group Hawk Nelson, in Christian rock group Hawk Nelson, in Christian rock group Hawk Nelson, in 20122, shocked young evangelicals by 20122, shocked young evangelicals by 20122, shocked young evangelicals by walking away from the faith.

walking away from the faith. walking away from the faith. >> And didn't become an atheist, but he he >> And didn't become an atheist, but he he >> And didn't become an atheist, but he he left Christianity, at least for now, left Christianity, at least for now, left Christianity, at least for now, because he said, "God is hidden. I can't because he said, "God is hidden. I can't because he said, "God is hidden. I can't find him. I don't sense he's there." find him. I don't sense he's there." find him. I don't sense he's there." >> And um so this is an increasingly common >> And um so this is an increasingly common >> And um so this is an increasingly common objection. So in my new book, Is God objection. So in my new book, Is God objection. So in my new book, Is God Real? I deal with both these questions. Real? I deal with both these questions. Real? I deal with both these questions. If God is real, why is there suffering? If God is real, why is there suffering? If God is real, why is there suffering? And if God is real, why is he so hidden? And if God is real, why is he so hidden? And if God is real, why is he so hidden? And uh I interviewed experts on those And uh I interviewed experts on those And uh I interviewed experts on those topics uh to provide as satisfying topics uh to provide as satisfying topics uh to provide as satisfying answers and prepare Christians to answers and prepare Christians to answers and prepare Christians to respond to those, but also to be a respond to those, but also to be a respond to those, but also to be a resource you can give to a non-Christian resource you can give to a non-Christian resource you can give to a non-Christian who may have those questions. I think who may have those questions. I think who may have those questions. I think what's interesting about those two what's interesting about those two what's interesting about those two questions being perhaps the most questions being perhaps the most questions being perhaps the most popular, most common questions um that popular, most common questions um that popular, most common questions um that people have about faith is it seems like people have about faith is it seems like people have about faith is it seems like generally and I would imagine a lot of generally and I would imagine a lot of generally and I would imagine a lot of the time if not most of the time there's the time if not most of the time there's the time if not most of the time there's an underlying emotional element to those an underlying emotional element to those an underlying emotional element to those questions that people are coming with questions that people are coming with questions that people are coming with those questions because they have gone those questions because they have gone those questions because they have gone through suffering themselves or they've through suffering themselves or they've through suffering themselves or they've seen seen seen >> yes >> yes >> yes >> suffering in loved ones, even loved ones >> suffering in loved ones, even loved ones >> suffering in loved ones, even loved ones who were of faith or as as with the who were of faith or as as with the who were of faith or as as with the hiddenness question, maybe they have hiddenness question, maybe they have hiddenness question, maybe they have tried to call out to God and just not tried to call out to God and just not tried to call out to God and just not seen the answer they were wanting kind seen the answer they were wanting kind seen the answer they were wanting kind of thing.

of thing. of thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, God just hides himself. He he keeps >> So, God just hides himself. He he keeps >> So, God just hides himself. He he keeps himself from it. that for the Christian himself from it. that for the Christian himself from it. that for the Christian to know when they are met with those to know when they are met with those to know when they are met with those questions if those questions come up questions if those questions come up questions if those questions come up >> it's >> it's >> it's it's important to think about like there it's important to think about like there it's important to think about like there is a person behind this question who is is a person behind this question who is is a person behind this question who is bringing their history their their bringing their history their their bringing their history their their experience a lot it's because it's not experience a lot it's because it's not experience a lot it's because it's not it's not an objection from science it's it's not an objection from science it's it's not an objection from science it's not an objection from it's an objection not an objection from it's an objection not an objection from it's an objection of their own personal experience with of their own personal experience with of their own personal experience with God which is God which is God which is >> well important point >> well important point >> well important point >> this is exactly why I've changed my >> this is exactly why I've changed my >> this is exactly why I've changed my approach in dealing with those questions approach in dealing with those questions approach in dealing with those questions over the years. It used to be when I over the years. It used to be when I over the years. It used to be when I would get into a conversation with a would get into a conversation with a would get into a conversation with a non-believer and and I would ask him to non-believer and and I would ask him to non-believer and and I would ask him to get the conversation going, "Hey, if you get the conversation going, "Hey, if you get the conversation going, "Hey, if you could ask God any one question and you could ask God any one question and you could ask God any one question and you knew he'd give you an answer right now, knew he'd give you an answer right now, knew he'd give you an answer right now, what would you ask him?" And as I say, what would you ask him?" And as I say, what would you ask him?" And as I say, >> most of the time it's going to be some >> most of the time it's going to be some >> most of the time it's going to be some permutation of okay, well, why does God permutation of okay, well, why does God permutation of okay, well, why does God allow suffering? So, 10 years ago, when allow suffering? So, 10 years ago, when allow suffering? So, 10 years ago, when somebody would say that to me, I would somebody would say that to me, I would somebody would say that to me, I would give them a five-point sermon on why God give them a five-point sermon on why God give them a five-point sermon on why God allows suffering. But I don't do that allows suffering. But I don't do that allows suffering. But I don't do that anymore. What I do now is if they ask anymore. What I do now is if they ask anymore. What I do now is if they ask that question, why does God allow that question, why does God allow that question, why does God allow suffering? I ask a follow-up question.

suffering? I ask a follow-up question. suffering? I ask a follow-up question. The follow-up question is, okay, of all The follow-up question is, okay, of all The follow-up question is, okay, of all the potential questions in the universe, the potential questions in the universe, the potential questions in the universe, why did you ask that one? why did you ask that one? why did you ask that one? >> Now you get to the emotional side. Now >> Now you get to the emotional side. Now >> Now you get to the emotional side. Now you get to the personal side. Now they you get to the personal side. Now they you get to the personal side. Now they say, because we lost a child in say, because we lost a child in say, because we lost a child in childbirth five years ago, and I want to childbirth five years ago, and I want to childbirth five years ago, and I want to know where was God when that happened. know where was God when that happened. know where was God when that happened. or my wife's been diagnosed with cancer or my wife's been diagnosed with cancer or my wife's been diagnosed with cancer and I want to know where's God in the and I want to know where's God in the and I want to know where's God in the middle of that. middle of that. middle of that. >> Now you're getting to the motivational >> Now you're getting to the motivational >> Now you're getting to the motivational question, the the motivational issue, question, the the motivational issue, question, the the motivational issue, the the the um personal topic. And so the the the um personal topic. And so the the the um personal topic. And so what these people don't need is someone what these people don't need is someone what these people don't need is someone to give them a five-point sermon. What to give them a five-point sermon. What to give them a five-point sermon. What they need is someone to be Jesus to they need is someone to be Jesus to they need is someone to be Jesus to them, to put their arm around their them, to put their arm around their them, to put their arm around their shoulder, to comfort them, to empathize shoulder, to comfort them, to empathize shoulder, to comfort them, to empathize with them, to um to listen to them, to with them, to um to listen to them, to with them, to um to listen to them, to um respond to them on a loving personal um respond to them on a loving personal um respond to them on a loving personal level, and then as opportunities arise level, and then as opportunities arise level, and then as opportunities arise to bring a gentle answer. But I've to bring a gentle answer. But I've to bring a gentle answer. But I've learned over the years, as you say, that learned over the years, as you say, that learned over the years, as you say, that most of the time these questions are most of the time these questions are most of the time these questions are driven by some personal issue. Let's get driven by some personal issue. Let's get driven by some personal issue. Let's get down to that personal issue because God down to that personal issue because God down to that personal issue because God can meet them there in a way that uh he can meet them there in a way that uh he can meet them there in a way that uh he he may not if we just give them a quick he may not if we just give them a quick he may not if we just give them a quick um theological answer.

um theological answer. um theological answer. >> Yeah. One of the quotes that Pastor Rick >> Yeah. One of the quotes that Pastor Rick >> Yeah. One of the quotes that Pastor Rick would say a lot was people don't care would say a lot was people don't care would say a lot was people don't care how much you know until they know how how much you know until they know how how much you know until they know how much you care. And that's the exact kind much you care. And that's the exact kind much you care. And that's the exact kind of um of um of um >> application of that, right? That's where >> application of that, right? That's where >> application of that, right? That's where God can use you because if you just as God can use you because if you just as God can use you because if you just as you said if you just provided the answer you said if you just provided the answer you said if you just provided the answer if you said well in CS Lewis's uh book if you said well in CS Lewis's uh book if you said well in CS Lewis's uh book on the problem of suffering we can see on the problem of suffering we can see on the problem of suffering we can see you know like no it doesn't really go so you know like no it doesn't really go so you know like no it doesn't really go so far but but when you are able to meet far but but when you are able to meet far but but when you are able to meet the person the person the person >> in their space just like and and that's >> in their space just like and and that's >> in their space just like and and that's where God is too God is with them in where God is too God is with them in where God is too God is with them in their suffering and if you're able to be their suffering and if you're able to be their suffering and if you're able to be that those hands and feet and just say that those hands and feet and just say that those hands and feet and just say hey like I I I' I'd love to hear about hey like I I I' I'd love to hear about hey like I I I' I'd love to hear about your like, you know, and bring it back your like, you know, and bring it back your like, you know, and bring it back to that point and they can see your to that point and they can see your to that point and they can see your love, your care, you know, just like love, your care, you know, just like love, your care, you know, just like what the gospel says is Jesus looked at what the gospel says is Jesus looked at what the gospel says is Jesus looked at them with compassion if you're if that's them with compassion if you're if that's them with compassion if you're if that's what they see what they see what they see >> rather than an apologetic jiu-jitsu >> rather than an apologetic jiu-jitsu >> rather than an apologetic jiu-jitsu robot who's just like, "Ah, I know this robot who's just like, "Ah, I know this robot who's just like, "Ah, I know this one."

one." one." >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> It can go. >> It can go. >> It can go. >> It does. Often what happens Yeah. Often >> It does. Often what happens Yeah. Often >> It does. Often what happens Yeah. Often what ends up happening is um you get what ends up happening is um you get what ends up happening is um you get into a great conversation about on a into a great conversation about on a into a great conversation about on a very personal level about why they're very personal level about why they're very personal level about why they're suffering or why they've asked that suffering or why they've asked that suffering or why they've asked that question and then it opens the door to question and then it opens the door to question and then it opens the door to more theological answers and more more theological answers and more more theological answers and more apologetic responses. Um but but it's apologetic responses. Um but but it's apologetic responses. Um but but it's it's preeded by a personal response that it's preeded by a personal response that it's preeded by a personal response that warms things up and lets someone know warms things up and lets someone know warms things up and lets someone know that I care about you. I really God that I care about you. I really God that I care about you. I really God loves you. I love you. I'd like to I'd loves you. I love you. I'd like to I'd loves you. I love you. I'd like to I'd like to be your friend. I'd like to help like to be your friend. I'd like to help like to be your friend. I'd like to help you work through this stuff, but first you work through this stuff, but first you work through this stuff, but first let's acknowledge you're hurting and and let's acknowledge you're hurting and and let's acknowledge you're hurting and and let's um let me be Jesus to you in let's um let me be Jesus to you in let's um let me be Jesus to you in comforting you. comforting you. comforting you. >> I love that and that's such a great >> I love that and that's such a great >> I love that and that's such a great reminder for everybody who's listening. reminder for everybody who's listening. reminder for everybody who's listening. I wanted to to ask so you've written I wanted to to ask so you've written I wanted to to ask so you've written about a number of like the broadest about a number of like the broadest about a number of like the broadest biggest topics and looked at them from biggest topics and looked at them from biggest topics and looked at them from this the case of idea right so you've this the case of idea right so you've this the case of idea right so you've written about Jesus and creation and written about Jesus and creation and written about Jesus and creation and heaven and miracles and faith heaven and miracles and faith heaven and miracles and faith >> which topic >> which topic >> which topic >> took you maybe down the most uh >> took you maybe down the most uh >> took you maybe down the most uh eyeopening thoughtprovoking path of eyeopening thoughtprovoking path of eyeopening thoughtprovoking path of research and writing research and writing research and writing >> I think my new book is God real uh did >> I think my new book is God real uh did >> I think my new book is God real uh did that and the reason is it incorporates that and the reason is it incorporates that and the reason is it incorporates the the broad range of evidence that uh the the broad range of evidence that uh the the broad range of evidence that uh points to Christianity being true. In points to Christianity being true. In points to Christianity being true. In other words, in my book, The Case for other words, in my book, The Case for other words, in my book, The Case for Christ, I dealt largely with the Christ, I dealt largely with the Christ, I dealt largely with the reliability of the Bible and um the reliability of the Bible and um the reliability of the Bible and um the resurrection of Jesus. Yeah. Um in my

resurrection of Jesus. Yeah. Um in my resurrection of Jesus. Yeah. Um in my book, The Case for Creator, I I look book, The Case for Creator, I I look book, The Case for Creator, I I look more at science, but this book really more at science, but this book really more at science, but this book really draws on science, philosophy, history, draws on science, philosophy, history, draws on science, philosophy, history, um all these different strands of um all these different strands of um all these different strands of evidence. There about 20 lines of evidence. There about 20 lines of evidence. There about 20 lines of evidence that point toward the truth of evidence that point toward the truth of evidence that point toward the truth of Christianity. And by focusing on this Christianity. And by focusing on this Christianity. And by focusing on this wide range of evidence, I think it wide range of evidence, I think it wide range of evidence, I think it builds a a clear and compelling case builds a a clear and compelling case builds a a clear and compelling case that Christianity accounts for the that Christianity accounts for the that Christianity accounts for the evidence better than any other evidence better than any other evidence better than any other worldview, better than atheism, better worldview, better than atheism, better worldview, better than atheism, better than pantheism, than pantheism, than pantheism, um better than any other faith system. um better than any other faith system. um better than any other faith system. And so I found this book to be And so I found this book to be And so I found this book to be especially um exciting to work on. As especially um exciting to work on. As especially um exciting to work on. As you know in my books um I don't sit you know in my books um I don't sit you know in my books um I don't sit there and pose as the expert. Uh I use there and pose as the expert. Uh I use there and pose as the expert. Uh I use my journalism background to track down my journalism background to track down my journalism background to track down people with doctorates from Cambridge people with doctorates from Cambridge people with doctorates from Cambridge University and and you know major um University and and you know major um University and and you know major um universities and sit down with them and universities and sit down with them and universities and sit down with them and ask him the tough questions I had as a ask him the tough questions I had as a ask him the tough questions I had as a skeptic and that allows me to stand in skeptic and that allows me to stand in skeptic and that allows me to stand in the shoes of the reader and ask the the shoes of the reader and ask the the shoes of the reader and ask the questions that are probably on their questions that are probably on their questions that are probably on their minds and uh and see what these experts minds and uh and see what these experts minds and uh and see what these experts have to say. So uh so I found this book have to say. So uh so I found this book have to say. So uh so I found this book particularly exciting to uh to work on.

particularly exciting to uh to work on. particularly exciting to uh to work on. >> Which part >> Which part >> Which part was there a question in particular maybe was there a question in particular maybe was there a question in particular maybe one that you had thought of early on in one that you had thought of early on in one that you had thought of early on in the writing process for is God real? the writing process for is God real? the writing process for is God real? That you were seeking answer that you That you were seeking answer that you That you were seeking answer that you were like hm I I I really I I I wonder were like hm I I I really I I I wonder were like hm I I I really I I I wonder what people are going to say about this what people are going to say about this what people are going to say about this one. Like this one seems the most uh I I one. Like this one seems the most uh I I one. Like this one seems the most uh I I don't know what the word is like don't know what the word is like don't know what the word is like ripe for for for a ripe for for for a ripe for for for a a difficult conversation around it. Is a difficult conversation around it. Is a difficult conversation around it. Is there one question that led you into a a there one question that led you into a a there one question that led you into a a uh maybe more excited space to find the uh maybe more excited space to find the uh maybe more excited space to find the person who's going to answer this one? person who's going to answer this one? person who's going to answer this one? >> Yeah. Well, you know, the first part of >> Yeah. Well, you know, the first part of >> Yeah. Well, you know, the first part of the book I deal with affirmative the book I deal with affirmative the book I deal with affirmative evidence that points toward Christianity evidence that points toward Christianity evidence that points toward Christianity as being true. Then I deal with these as being true. Then I deal with these as being true. Then I deal with these two objections. And the one objection two objections. And the one objection two objections. And the one objection that I found new that I found new that I found new >> and um perplexing >> and um perplexing >> and um perplexing >> and um um you know really wrestle with >> and um um you know really wrestle with >> and um um you know really wrestle with is this issue of the hiddenenness of is this issue of the hiddenenness of is this issue of the hiddenenness of God. God. God. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Uh if God loves us, if God has a wants a >> Uh if God loves us, if God has a wants a >> Uh if God loves us, if God has a wants a relationship with us, why doesn't he relationship with us, why doesn't he relationship with us, why doesn't he make his his existence much more obvious make his his existence much more obvious make his his existence much more obvious to us? And and you go, "Well, that's a to us? And and you go, "Well, that's a to us? And and you go, "Well, that's a that's a legitimate question." uh John that's a legitimate question." uh John that's a legitimate question." uh John Steinard, you know, the musician from Steinard, you know, the musician from Steinard, you know, the musician from Hawk Nelson, Hawk Nelson, Hawk Nelson, >> that was the thing that chased him away >> that was the thing that chased him away >> that was the thing that chased him away from the faith. So, this is this is an from the faith. So, this is this is an from the faith. So, this is this is an important quest question and I'd never important quest question and I'd never important quest question and I'd never really addressed that in any of my really addressed that in any of my really addressed that in any of my writings before writings before writings before >> and so I sat down with a philosopher and >> and so I sat down with a philosopher and >> and so I sat down with a philosopher and u and really worked through it and you u and really worked through it and you u and really worked through it and you know it's pro probably a 30-page chapter

know it's pro probably a 30-page chapter know it's pro probably a 30-page chapter and it it really delves into this issue and it it really delves into this issue and it it really delves into this issue I think in a in a provocative way and in I think in a in a provocative way and in I think in a in a provocative way and in a way that satisfies your heart and a way that satisfies your heart and a way that satisfies your heart and soul. so that you finish the chapter, soul. so that you finish the chapter, soul. so that you finish the chapter, you go, "Yeah, I get it. There are you go, "Yeah, I get it. There are you go, "Yeah, I get it. There are reasons for this and it does make sense reasons for this and it does make sense reasons for this and it does make sense that God um uh behaves the way that he that God um uh behaves the way that he that God um uh behaves the way that he does and that we behave the way that we does and that we behave the way that we does and that we behave the way that we do." So um so I think that one is the do." So um so I think that one is the do." So um so I think that one is the one that uh you know was really the one that uh you know was really the one that uh you know was really the biggest challenge and eye openener for biggest challenge and eye openener for biggest challenge and eye openener for me. me. me. >> Yeah. And I I'm I'm sure that's the >> Yeah. And I I'm I'm sure that's the >> Yeah. And I I'm I'm sure that's the question that a lot of the listeners are question that a lot of the listeners are question that a lot of the listeners are going to you know be interested to learn going to you know be interested to learn going to you know be interested to learn more about. So again the book comes out more about. So again the book comes out more about. So again the book comes out today. It's available. today. It's available. today. It's available. >> So So for is God real? you see so you >> So So for is God real? you see so you >> So So for is God real? you see so you already mentioned a few of the questions already mentioned a few of the questions already mentioned a few of the questions that are just like the prominent that are just like the prominent that are just like the prominent questions from the book right so why is questions from the book right so why is questions from the book right so why is there suffering which God is is real I there suffering which God is is real I there suffering which God is is real I think there's think there's think there's >> yes and science and faith does science >> yes and science and faith does science >> yes and science and faith does science contradict faith or does it support contradict faith or does it support contradict faith or does it support faith faith faith >> exactly right exactly right so there's >> exactly right exactly right so there's >> exactly right exactly right so there's one question that I was hoping to focus one question that I was hoping to focus one question that I was hoping to focus in on a little bit in on a little bit in on a little bit >> because I think it's really a >> because I think it's really a >> because I think it's really a foundational question which is if God is foundational question which is if God is foundational question which is if God is real what difference does it real what difference does it real what difference does it Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, >> I think like to me that's kind of like >> I think like to me that's kind of like >> I think like to me that's kind of like the all signs point to this question the all signs point to this question the all signs point to this question right here. Right. Right.

right here. Right. Right. right here. Right. Right. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> so for Christians who are listening and >> so for Christians who are listening and >> so for Christians who are listening and and maybe they're thinking about people and maybe they're thinking about people and maybe they're thinking about people in their life who don't know Jesus, I'm in their life who don't know Jesus, I'm in their life who don't know Jesus, I'm curious how they should think about this curious how they should think about this curious how they should think about this question of what difference does it make question of what difference does it make question of what difference does it make if God is real in light of evangelistic if God is real in light of evangelistic if God is real in light of evangelistic efforts? efforts? efforts? >> Yeah. you know, um, uh, there's an >> Yeah. you know, um, uh, there's an >> Yeah. you know, um, uh, there's an evolutionary biologist, William Provine. evolutionary biologist, William Provine. evolutionary biologist, William Provine. He died a few years ago, but he was in a He died a few years ago, but he was in a He died a few years ago, but he was in a debate with a Christian, and in that debate with a Christian, and in that debate with a Christian, and in that debate, he said, you know, there are debate, he said, you know, there are debate, he said, you know, there are five inescapable implications for five inescapable implications for five inescapable implications for humankind if God is not real. So, when humankind if God is not real. So, when humankind if God is not real. So, when you say, you know, what does it matter? you say, you know, what does it matter? you say, you know, what does it matter? What what are the implications? He said, What what are the implications? He said, What what are the implications? He said, there are five implications and he there are five implications and he there are five implications and he spelled them out. Number one, it would spelled them out. Number one, it would spelled them out. Number one, it would mean there is no evidence for God. mean there is no evidence for God. mean there is no evidence for God. Number two, there is no life after Number two, there is no life after Number two, there is no life after death. Number three, there is no death. Number three, there is no death. Number three, there is no absolute foundation for right and wrong. absolute foundation for right and wrong. absolute foundation for right and wrong. Number four, there is no absolute Number four, there is no absolute Number four, there is no absolute meaning for life. And number five, meaning for life. And number five, meaning for life. And number five, people don't really have free will.

people don't really have free will. people don't really have free will. >> So these are the most fundamental issues >> So these are the most fundamental issues >> So these are the most fundamental issues of all. I mean, if there is no God, of all. I mean, if there is no God, of all. I mean, if there is no God, seriously, there is we don't really have seriously, there is we don't really have seriously, there is we don't really have free will. Free will there's no absolute free will. Free will there's no absolute free will. Free will there's no absolute meaning for life. You can't even say meaning for life. You can't even say meaning for life. You can't even say what is objectively right and wrong. Uh what is objectively right and wrong. Uh what is objectively right and wrong. Uh there is no life after death. I mean there is no life after death. I mean there is no life after death. I mean this is the these are the biggest issues this is the these are the biggest issues this is the these are the biggest issues of all. And then of course you get into of all. And then of course you get into of all. And then of course you get into issues of purpose and meaning. Um you issues of purpose and meaning. Um you issues of purpose and meaning. Um you threequarters of millennials say that threequarters of millennials say that threequarters of millennials say that they're searching for a sense of purpose they're searching for a sense of purpose they're searching for a sense of purpose in life. Well, good luck trying to find in life. Well, good luck trying to find in life. Well, good luck trying to find it if God doesn't exist because because it if God doesn't exist because because it if God doesn't exist because because we're just a blip that's going to be we're just a blip that's going to be we're just a blip that's going to be just um here for a heartbeat of a moment just um here for a heartbeat of a moment just um here for a heartbeat of a moment in history um on a on a little planet in in history um on a on a little planet in in history um on a on a little planet in the middle of nowhere. Uh if if there is the middle of nowhere. Uh if if there is the middle of nowhere. Uh if if there is no God, there is no meaning. You have to no God, there is no meaning. You have to no God, there is no meaning. You have to make up your own meaning and and um and make up your own meaning and and um and make up your own meaning and and um and it just becomes platitudes. Uh real it just becomes platitudes. Uh real it just becomes platitudes. Uh real meaning comes from the existence of God meaning comes from the existence of God meaning comes from the existence of God himself. And so um I I and you know you himself. And so um I I and you know you himself. And so um I I and you know you look at um depression and anxiety among look at um depression and anxiety among look at um depression and anxiety among young people. You know look at young people. You know look at young people. You know look at generation Z you know studies have shown generation Z you know studies have shown generation Z you know studies have shown this is just from the centers of disease this is just from the centers of disease this is just from the centers of disease control just uh in this year 2023 says control just uh in this year 2023 says control just uh in this year 2023 says almost 60% of female students almost 60% of female students almost 60% of female students experienced persistent feelings of experienced persistent feelings of experienced persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness during the last sadness or hopelessness during the last sadness or hopelessness during the last year. And nearly 25% have made a suicide year. And nearly 25% have made a suicide year. And nearly 25% have made a suicide plan.

plan. plan. >> 25% of young women have made suicide >> 25% of young women have made suicide >> 25% of young women have made suicide plans. I'm telling you, um, why is that? plans. I'm telling you, um, why is that? plans. I'm telling you, um, why is that? Because we live in a culture that's Because we live in a culture that's Because we live in a culture that's increasingly questioning questioning the increasingly questioning questioning the increasingly questioning questioning the existence of God. The number of existence of God. The number of existence of God. The number of Americans who believe that God exists Americans who believe that God exists Americans who believe that God exists has sunken to 81%. Mhm. has sunken to 81%. Mhm. has sunken to 81%. Mhm. >> When I was in high school in the 1960s, >> When I was in high school in the 1960s, >> When I was in high school in the 1960s, it was 98% of Americans believe that God it was 98% of Americans believe that God it was 98% of Americans believe that God exists. Now it's down to 81%. exists. Now it's down to 81%. exists. Now it's down to 81%. >> And and so as our culture begins to >> And and so as our culture begins to >> And and so as our culture begins to increasingly be hostile or skeptical increasingly be hostile or skeptical increasingly be hostile or skeptical toward the existence of God, we see the toward the existence of God, we see the toward the existence of God, we see the natural result which is an influx of natural result which is an influx of natural result which is an influx of anxiety and hopelessness and anxiety and hopelessness and anxiety and hopelessness and purposelessness among people. Um and we purposelessness among people. Um and we purposelessness among people. Um and we can see that all around us. So does this can see that all around us. So does this can see that all around us. So does this make a difference? Does this make a make a difference? Does this make a make a difference? Does this make a practical impact on our life? practical impact on our life? practical impact on our life? Absolutely. To me, it is the Absolutely. To me, it is the Absolutely. To me, it is the foundational issue of all >> and your time as as the at the uh Lee >> and your time as as the at the uh Lee Stroable. It's so aptly named the Lee Stroable. It's so aptly named the Lee Stroable. It's so aptly named the Lee Stroable Center for Evangelism and Stroable Center for Evangelism and Stroable Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics.

Applied Apologetics. Applied Apologetics. What is I'm assuming that that is a that What is I'm assuming that that is a that What is I'm assuming that that is a that everything that you were just talking everything that you were just talking everything that you were just talking about about this rise of anxiety of of about about this rise of anxiety of of about about this rise of anxiety of of depression of isolation of loneliness depression of isolation of loneliness depression of isolation of loneliness all these things are kind of all these things are kind of all these things are kind of >> coming at each other at the same time. >> coming at each other at the same time. >> coming at each other at the same time. What sort of questions and and what sort What sort of questions and and what sort What sort of questions and and what sort of um motivations do you see students of um motivations do you see students of um motivations do you see students coming into your program with in hoping coming into your program with in hoping coming into your program with in hoping that they're going to get out of the that they're going to get out of the that they're going to get out of the program something to take into this program something to take into this program something to take into this world that they are inheriting and are world that they are inheriting and are world that they are inheriting and are so much a part of? so much a part of? so much a part of? >> Yeah. They want to know are my feet >> Yeah. They want to know are my feet >> Yeah. They want to know are my feet firmly planted on quicksand? firmly planted on quicksand? firmly planted on quicksand? >> Yeah. or are my feet or can my feet be >> Yeah. or are my feet or can my feet be >> Yeah. or are my feet or can my feet be firmly planted on something solid uh firmly planted on something solid uh firmly planted on something solid uh like the word of God and the truth of like the word of God and the truth of like the word of God and the truth of God? Uh they're looking for something to God? Uh they're looking for something to God? Uh they're looking for something to anchor their life with and and the Bible anchor their life with and and the Bible anchor their life with and and the Bible talks about uh for instance the talks about uh for instance the talks about uh for instance the resurrection of Jesus being an anchor resurrection of Jesus being an anchor resurrection of Jesus being an anchor for our faith. Um and uh so what we're for our faith. Um and uh so what we're for our faith. Um and uh so what we're finding is that young people um you know finding is that young people um you know finding is that young people um you know some people might think oh young people some people might think oh young people some people might think oh young people aren't that interested in apologetics aren't that interested in apologetics aren't that interested in apologetics and evidence for the faith. know the and evidence for the faith. know the and evidence for the faith. know the opposite is true because they're getting opposite is true because they're getting opposite is true because they're getting hit on the internet by all kinds of hit on the internet by all kinds of hit on the internet by all kinds of often outdated and ridiculous objections often outdated and ridiculous objections often outdated and ridiculous objections to the faith, but they don't they don't to the faith, but they don't they don't to the faith, but they don't they don't know that. They just think, "Oh, here's know that. They just think, "Oh, here's know that. They just think, "Oh, here's a good argument against Christianity."

a good argument against Christianity." a good argument against Christianity." Uh, and not knowing it's been refuted Uh, and not knowing it's been refuted Uh, and not knowing it's been refuted for 100 years. Um, and so we find people for 100 years. Um, and so we find people for 100 years. Um, and so we find people want to know. And uh we get people who want to know. And uh we get people who want to know. And uh we get people who are in our program who are um uh are in our program who are um uh are in our program who are um uh planning a career in apologetics and planning a career in apologetics and planning a career in apologetics and evangelism perhaps on the staff of a evangelism perhaps on the staff of a evangelism perhaps on the staff of a church church church >> or or in independent ministry. Uh but a >> or or in independent ministry. Uh but a >> or or in independent ministry. Uh but a lot of people take our courses who just lot of people take our courses who just lot of people take our courses who just want answers. In fact, you know, we have want answers. In fact, you know, we have want answers. In fact, you know, we have not only master's degrees which are not only master's degrees which are not only master's degrees which are completely uh accredited and fully completely uh accredited and fully completely uh accredited and fully online for people that want to get a online for people that want to get a online for people that want to get a master's degree in apologetics or master's degree in apologetics or master's degree in apologetics or evangelism or an undergraduate degree, a evangelism or an undergraduate degree, a evangelism or an undergraduate degree, a bachelor's degree. But we decided to bachelor's degree. But we decided to bachelor's degree. But we decided to come up with what we call certificate come up with what we call certificate come up with what we call certificate courses. courses. courses. >> So these are for the kind of people you >> So these are for the kind of people you >> So these are for the kind of people you mentioned, people who don't want a mentioned, people who don't want a mentioned, people who don't want a degree, but they want to take a course degree, but they want to take a course degree, but they want to take a course on, for instance, the evidence for the on, for instance, the evidence for the on, for instance, the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus or science and resurrection of Jesus or science and resurrection of Jesus or science and faith or world religions or Islam or faith or world religions or Islam or faith or world religions or Islam or whatever. And they can take these at whatever. And they can take these at whatever. And they can take these at their own pace, fully online. They're their own pace, fully online. They're their own pace, fully online. They're incredibly inexpensive. And if they take incredibly inexpensive. And if they take incredibly inexpensive. And if they take five of these courses, you kind of get a five of these courses, you kind of get a five of these courses, you kind of get a certificate that says you've completed certificate that says you've completed certificate that says you've completed this course of study. Those certificate this course of study. Those certificate this course of study. Those certificate of course are not academic courses. But of course are not academic courses. But of course are not academic courses. But but you learn from them. We have 40 PhDs but you learn from them. We have 40 PhDs but you learn from them. We have 40 PhDs that have created these courses.

that have created these courses. that have created these courses. >> Uh so these are solid they're made up of >> Uh so these are solid they're made up of >> Uh so these are solid they're made up of solid stuff. Um but yeah, I think the solid stuff. Um but yeah, I think the solid stuff. Um but yeah, I think the the interest in apologetics is actually the interest in apologetics is actually the interest in apologetics is actually increasing. In fact, Jay Warner Wallace, increasing. In fact, Jay Warner Wallace, increasing. In fact, Jay Warner Wallace, whose name many of your listeners will whose name many of your listeners will whose name many of your listeners will know, former um cold case homicide know, former um cold case homicide know, former um cold case homicide investigator and atheist who became a investigator and atheist who became a investigator and atheist who became a Christian, he said recently uh Christian, he said recently uh Christian, he said recently uh evangelism in the 21st century is evangelism in the 21st century is evangelism in the 21st century is spelled apologetics. M spelled apologetics. M spelled apologetics. M >> and what he means is in the 21st >> and what he means is in the 21st >> and what he means is in the 21st century, if you want to share Jesus with century, if you want to share Jesus with century, if you want to share Jesus with a neighbor, a friend, a child, a a neighbor, a friend, a child, a a neighbor, a friend, a child, a grandchild, you better know something grandchild, you better know something grandchild, you better know something about apologetics. Um because questions, about apologetics. Um because questions, about apologetics. Um because questions, tough questions are going to come up. tough questions are going to come up. tough questions are going to come up. >> That's a great encouragement for people. >> That's a great encouragement for people. >> That's a great encouragement for people. Don't just assume that that oh, I don't Don't just assume that that oh, I don't Don't just assume that that oh, I don't need to know this. I I don't need to need to know this. I I don't need to need to know this. I I don't need to think through the answers. It's it's no. think through the answers. It's it's no. think through the answers. It's it's no. Everything that we talked about at the Everything that we talked about at the Everything that we talked about at the beginning of our conversation is still beginning of our conversation is still beginning of our conversation is still very true. And you think about the very true. And you think about the very true. And you think about the people in your life who don't know people in your life who don't know people in your life who don't know Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. >> Take the steps that you need to to be >> Take the steps that you need to to be >> Take the steps that you need to to be able to able to able to >> ground your faith to get those firm >> ground your faith to get those firm >> ground your faith to get those firm roots that you were talking about to roots that you were talking about to roots that you were talking about to have the confidence to be able to go have the confidence to be able to go have the confidence to be able to go into conversations and knowing that God into conversations and knowing that God into conversations and knowing that God is with you in doing that. But he's also is with you in doing that. But he's also is with you in doing that. But he's also saying, "Hey, I've provided all of these saying, "Hey, I've provided all of these saying, "Hey, I've provided all of these an all these smart people to think an all these smart people to think an all these smart people to think through all these answers."

through all these answers." through all these answers." >> Right? And I say, you know, read the >> Right? And I say, you know, read the >> Right? And I say, you know, read the book, Is God Real? absorb some of these book, Is God Real? absorb some of these book, Is God Real? absorb some of these basic I mean it's it's not a book that basic I mean it's it's not a book that basic I mean it's it's not a book that deals with highfulutin deals with highfulutin deals with highfulutin ultra sophisticated arguments. So these ultra sophisticated arguments. So these ultra sophisticated arguments. So these these are things we all can understand these are things we all can understand these are things we all can understand but do it not just for yourself to but do it not just for yourself to but do it not just for yourself to deepen your own faith and prepare you deepen your own faith and prepare you deepen your own faith and prepare you but then give the book away. but then give the book away. but then give the book away. >> Uh you know give it away regift it you >> Uh you know give it away regift it you >> Uh you know give it away regift it you know give it at Christmas know give it at Christmas know give it at Christmas >> to uh to a friend or a neighbor or >> to uh to a friend or a neighbor or >> to uh to a friend or a neighbor or someone who's who's curious about faith someone who's who's curious about faith someone who's who's curious about faith and say I know you've you've um you've and say I know you've you've um you've and say I know you've you've um you've exhibited some interest in spiritual exhibited some interest in spiritual exhibited some interest in spiritual matters. I thought this book might help matters. I thought this book might help matters. I thought this book might help you because it's it's a book that deals you because it's it's a book that deals you because it's it's a book that deals with rationality and evidence and facts with rationality and evidence and facts with rationality and evidence and facts uh that point toward God. uh that point toward God. uh that point toward God. you mentioned um as a part of your you mentioned um as a part of your you mentioned um as a part of your programs through the school, you programs through the school, you programs through the school, you mentioned world religions. I'm curious mentioned world religions. I'm curious mentioned world religions. I'm curious if you've seen a a rise in any maybe if you've seen a a rise in any maybe if you've seen a a rise in any maybe like one specific world religion that like one specific world religion that like one specific world religion that people come in asking a lot of questions people come in asking a lot of questions people come in asking a lot of questions about there's you know and maybe maybe about there's you know and maybe maybe about there's you know and maybe maybe there's a lot of there's a lot of there's a lot of movement towards that particular movement towards that particular movement towards that particular religion or school of thought even is religion or school of thought even is religion or school of thought even is there is there one that you've noticed there is there one that you've noticed there is there one that you've noticed kind of have more interest than others kind of have more interest than others kind of have more interest than others >> yeah I think people are interested in >> yeah I think people are interested in >> yeah I think people are interested in Islam uh because of its presence on the Islam uh because of its presence on the Islam uh because of its presence on the world stage world stage world stage >> and Um uh they want to know what what do >> and Um uh they want to know what what do >> and Um uh they want to know what what do what do Muslims believe? Do do Muslims what do Muslims believe? Do do Muslims what do Muslims believe? Do do Muslims worship the same God that we do? Um is worship the same God that we do? Um is worship the same God that we do? Um is it just another way of looking at things it just another way of looking at things it just another way of looking at things or is it fundamentally in contradiction

or is it fundamentally in contradiction or is it fundamentally in contradiction to Christianity? And the answer is it's to Christianity? And the answer is it's to Christianity? And the answer is it's fundamentally in contradiction. If you fundamentally in contradiction. If you fundamentally in contradiction. If you read the Quran, which I have many times, read the Quran, which I have many times, read the Quran, which I have many times, um you find that it specifically goes um you find that it specifically goes um you find that it specifically goes out of its way to contradict the very out of its way to contradict the very out of its way to contradict the very things you need to believe if you're a things you need to believe if you're a things you need to believe if you're a Christian. For instance, it says that Christian. For instance, it says that Christian. For instance, it says that Jesus did not die on the cross. Jesus did not die on the cross. Jesus did not die on the cross. Therefore, he was not resurrected. God Therefore, he was not resurrected. God Therefore, he was not resurrected. God does not have a son. Um, nobody can bear does not have a son. Um, nobody can bear does not have a son. Um, nobody can bear the sins of another. I mean, these are the sins of another. I mean, these are the sins of another. I mean, these are specific teachings of Islam that if you specific teachings of Islam that if you specific teachings of Islam that if you believe them, then you can't be a believe them, then you can't be a believe them, then you can't be a Christian. You can't believe in Christian. You can't believe in Christian. You can't believe in Christianity. So, we actually have a Christianity. So, we actually have a Christianity. So, we actually have a course on our certificate level for course on our certificate level for course on our certificate level for people that want to just take a course people that want to just take a course people that want to just take a course at their own pace online to learn about at their own pace online to learn about at their own pace online to learn about Islam and and learn what it does teach Islam and and learn what it does teach Islam and and learn what it does teach and why it does contradict Christianity. and why it does contradict Christianity. and why it does contradict Christianity. Um, but what's interesting to me is that Um, but what's interesting to me is that Um, but what's interesting to me is that we have seen more Muslims become we have seen more Muslims become we have seen more Muslims become Christians in the last 30 years than in Christians in the last 30 years than in Christians in the last 30 years than in the 1400 years since Muhammad. U and the the 1400 years since Muhammad. U and the the 1400 years since Muhammad. U and the reason is God is doing and I write about reason is God is doing and I write about reason is God is doing and I write about this in my book the case for miracles.

this in my book the case for miracles. this in my book the case for miracles. >> God is doing something something >> God is doing something something >> God is doing something something amazing. Um he is sending dreams to amazing. Um he is sending dreams to amazing. Um he is sending dreams to people in closed Islamic countries. people in closed Islamic countries. people in closed Islamic countries. Jesus dreams where people in a country Jesus dreams where people in a country Jesus dreams where people in a country where it's illegal to share the gospel where it's illegal to share the gospel where it's illegal to share the gospel where a Muslim will go to sleep and where a Muslim will go to sleep and where a Muslim will go to sleep and they'll have a dream in which Jesus will they'll have a dream in which Jesus will they'll have a dream in which Jesus will appear to them in the dream. And this is appear to them in the dream. And this is appear to them in the dream. And this is not just a subjective experience because not just a subjective experience because not just a subjective experience because in the dream typically what happens is in the dream typically what happens is in the dream typically what happens is Jesus points to someone else in the Jesus points to someone else in the Jesus points to someone else in the dream and says you want to know more dream and says you want to know more dream and says you want to know more talk to my friend. talk to my friend. talk to my friend. >> And so this shows an objective reality >> And so this shows an objective reality >> And so this shows an objective reality that proves that the dream is not just that proves that the dream is not just that proves that the dream is not just coming something coming out of our coming something coming out of our coming something coming out of our minds. I'll give you an example. There minds. I'll give you an example. There minds. I'll give you an example. There was a woman named No in Egypt, a Muslim was a woman named No in Egypt, a Muslim was a woman named No in Egypt, a Muslim woman, mother of several children. She woman, mother of several children. She woman, mother of several children. She fell asleep one night and she had a fell asleep one night and she had a fell asleep one night and she had a dream about Jesus and she was just being dream about Jesus and she was just being dream about Jesus and she was just being in the presence of Jesus. The love, the in the presence of Jesus. The love, the in the presence of Jesus. The love, the grace that she felt was just absolutely grace that she felt was just absolutely grace that she felt was just absolutely overwhelming to her and and she overwhelming to her and and she overwhelming to her and and she experienced it. And at the end she said, experienced it. And at the end she said, experienced it. And at the end she said, "Jesus, tell me more. Tell me more." And "Jesus, tell me more. Tell me more." And "Jesus, tell me more. Tell me more." And Jesus said, "My friend will tell you."

Jesus said, "My friend will tell you." Jesus said, "My friend will tell you." And she said, "Who's your friend?" And And she said, "Who's your friend?" And And she said, "Who's your friend?" And he points to a guy who she didn't even he points to a guy who she didn't even he points to a guy who she didn't even realize was walking with them in the realize was walking with them in the realize was walking with them in the dream. And Jesus points to this person, dream. And Jesus points to this person, dream. And Jesus points to this person, says, "He'll tell you more." Well, the says, "He'll tell you more." Well, the says, "He'll tell you more." Well, the next day she goes to the crowded next day she goes to the crowded next day she goes to the crowded marketplace in Cairo, and she's walking marketplace in Cairo, and she's walking marketplace in Cairo, and she's walking along and she sees the man from the along and she sees the man from the along and she sees the man from the dream. And she goes up to him, and she dream. And she goes up to him, and she dream. And she goes up to him, and she said, "You're the guy. You're the guy." said, "You're the guy. You're the guy." said, "You're the guy. You're the guy." Said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you Said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you Said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you talking? You're the man. I saw you. Same talking? You're the man. I saw you. Same talking? You're the man. I saw you. Same glasses, same face, same clothes." And glasses, same face, same clothes." And glasses, same face, same clothes." And he looked at her and said, "Did you have he looked at her and said, "Did you have he looked at her and said, "Did you have a dream about Jesus?" She said, "Yes." a dream about Jesus?" She said, "Yes." a dream about Jesus?" She said, "Yes." Turned out he was a missionary. Oh wow. Turned out he was a missionary. Oh wow. Turned out he was a missionary. Oh wow. >> And he wasn't going to go to the >> And he wasn't going to go to the >> And he wasn't going to go to the marketplace that day because who wants marketplace that day because who wants marketplace that day because who wants to go on a crowded Friday, but he felt to go on a crowded Friday, but he felt to go on a crowded Friday, but he felt God had a special appointment for him. God had a special appointment for him. God had a special appointment for him. So he showed up that day and this woman So he showed up that day and this woman So he showed up that day and this woman inter intersected with him and he was inter intersected with him and he was inter intersected with him and he was able to sit down for three hours and able to sit down for three hours and able to sit down for three hours and open the Bible and share the gospel with open the Bible and share the gospel with open the Bible and share the gospel with her. This is what typically happens. And her. This is what typically happens. And her. This is what typically happens. And so you see there's a an outside so you see there's a an outside so you see there's a an outside confirmation, a corroboration that this confirmation, a corroboration that this confirmation, a corroboration that this is not just something that's happening is not just something that's happening is not just something that's happening in their mind, but there something more in their mind, but there something more in their mind, but there something more to it. And these dreams are so common to it. And these dreams are so common to it. And these dreams are so common that in the newspaper in Cairo, there's that in the newspaper in Cairo, there's that in the newspaper in Cairo, there's an ad. And all the ad that says is, "Did an ad. And all the ad that says is, "Did an ad. And all the ad that says is, "Did you have a or no, call this number and you have a or no, call this number and you have a or no, call this number and we'll tell you about the man in white we'll tell you about the man in white we'll tell you about the man in white you met in your dream last night."

you met in your dream last night." you met in your dream last night." >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. And people call because they had these And people call because they had these And people call because they had these Jesus dreams. So seeing a huge influx of Jesus dreams. So seeing a huge influx of Jesus dreams. So seeing a huge influx of of Muslims into the Christian faith um of Muslims into the Christian faith um of Muslims into the Christian faith um as a result of that and also apologists as a result of that and also apologists as a result of that and also apologists like the late Nabil Koreshi and others like the late Nabil Koreshi and others like the late Nabil Koreshi and others who have have shared evidence for who have have shared evidence for who have have shared evidence for Christianity with Muslims um and but Christianity with Muslims um and but Christianity with Muslims um and but it's also created curiosity among it's also created curiosity among it's also created curiosity among Christians to know more about Islam. Christians to know more about Islam. Christians to know more about Islam. >> Yeah, that's fascinating. I had a >> Yeah, that's fascinating. I had a >> Yeah, that's fascinating. I had a question about another kind of school of question about another kind of school of question about another kind of school of thought or idea. A couple of uh weeks thought or idea. A couple of uh weeks thought or idea. A couple of uh weeks ago, I had as a guest on this podcast ago, I had as a guest on this podcast ago, I had as a guest on this podcast the philosopher the philosopher the philosopher Douglas Grodius and he was talking about Douglas Grodius and he was talking about Douglas Grodius and he was talking about the rise of apaththeism. He said it's the rise of apaththeism. He said it's the rise of apaththeism. He said it's not necessarily atheism and it's not not necessarily atheism and it's not not necessarily atheism and it's not it's apaththeism. It's this yeah it's apaththeism. It's this yeah it's apaththeism. It's this yeah >> I don't care less afair mentality toward >> I don't care less afair mentality toward >> I don't care less afair mentality toward their spirituality. How have you seen uh their spirituality. How have you seen uh their spirituality. How have you seen uh that rise that he's talking about? that rise that he's talking about? that rise that he's talking about? >> I think it's huge. Um, I think one of >> I think it's huge. Um, I think one of >> I think it's huge. Um, I think one of the greatest obstacles to the gospel in the greatest obstacles to the gospel in the greatest obstacles to the gospel in the 21st century is apathy.

the 21st century is apathy. the 21st century is apathy. >> It's people who just they don't see the >> It's people who just they don't see the >> It's people who just they don't see the need for it. They they're happy in what need for it. They they're happy in what need for it. They they're happy in what they're doing. Um, and many of them deep they're doing. Um, and many of them deep they're doing. Um, and many of them deep down inside know, you know what, if I down inside know, you know what, if I down inside know, you know what, if I were to become a Christian, I'd have to were to become a Christian, I'd have to were to become a Christian, I'd have to give up some of the things I'm involved give up some of the things I'm involved give up some of the things I'm involved in. And frankly, I don't want to give in. And frankly, I don't want to give in. And frankly, I don't want to give them up. them up. them up. >> I think that's really at the core of a >> I think that's really at the core of a >> I think that's really at the core of a lot of it. Um, but they just they throw lot of it. Um, but they just they throw lot of it. Um, but they just they throw up their arms and say, "I can't really up their arms and say, "I can't really up their arms and say, "I can't really know for sure. So why really spend the know for sure. So why really spend the know for sure. So why really spend the time to check into it? So I think apathy time to check into it? So I think apathy time to check into it? So I think apathy is a major issue. Um and and the is a major issue. Um and and the is a major issue. Um and and the question you asked earlier is so question you asked earlier is so question you asked earlier is so important. If this is true, if God is important. If this is true, if God is important. If this is true, if God is real, what are the implications? real, what are the implications? real, what are the implications? >> And when you look at it that way, you >> And when you look at it that way, you >> And when you look at it that way, you go, "Oh my goodness." Yeah, it is worth go, "Oh my goodness." Yeah, it is worth go, "Oh my goodness." Yeah, it is worth my time to try to figure this out. my time to try to figure this out. my time to try to figure this out. >> Yeah, that's a you know, it's >> Yeah, that's a you know, it's >> Yeah, that's a you know, it's everything that we've talked about is everything that we've talked about is everything that we've talked about is true for the person who's in that state true for the person who's in that state true for the person who's in that state of apathy. They may not have the of apathy. They may not have the of apathy. They may not have the questions at the tip of their tongue, questions at the tip of their tongue, questions at the tip of their tongue, but it's still something that they're but it's still something that they're but it's still something that they're wrestling with with deep down, but wrestling with with deep down, but wrestling with with deep down, but they're making the choice to suppress it they're making the choice to suppress it they're making the choice to suppress it in favor of the now, in favor of their in favor of the now, in favor of their in favor of the now, in favor of their interests, you know, the flesh self, if interests, you know, the flesh self, if interests, you know, the flesh self, if you will. But it's still but those you will. But it's still but those you will. But it's still but those questions are still very true and they questions are still very true and they questions are still very true and they still ring true for that person. They still ring true for that person. They still ring true for that person. They can't avoid them or run away from them.

can't avoid them or run away from them. can't avoid them or run away from them. Still going to come to roost at some Still going to come to roost at some Still going to come to roost at some point. point. point. >> That's right. We can't ignore Romans >> That's right. We can't ignore Romans >> That's right. We can't ignore Romans 1:20 that says that from creation we 1:20 that says that from creation we 1:20 that says that from creation we have clearly known it says clearly we have clearly known it says clearly we have clearly known it says clearly we have clearly known clearly seen the have clearly known clearly seen the have clearly known clearly seen the invisible qualities of God his power his invisible qualities of God his power his invisible qualities of God his power his goodness and so forth we see that God goodness and so forth we see that God goodness and so forth we see that God exists from creation but the Bible says exists from creation but the Bible says exists from creation but the Bible says we suppress that and in the Greek that we suppress that and in the Greek that we suppress that and in the Greek that that that word suppress that's used that that word suppress that's used that that word suppress that's used suggests it's like a pedal and we push suggests it's like a pedal and we push suggests it's like a pedal and we push the pedal down to suppress what we see the pedal down to suppress what we see the pedal down to suppress what we see about God but then the pedal starts to about God but then the pedal starts to about God but then the pedal starts to come up. So we push it down again and come up. So we push it down again and come up. So we push it down again and then it starts to creep up. We push it then it starts to creep up. We push it then it starts to creep up. We push it down again. That's the imagery of the down again. That's the imagery of the down again. That's the imagery of the Greek there. And that's our re and Greek there. And that's our re and Greek there. And that's our re and that's why you know when we ask is God that's why you know when we ask is God that's why you know when we ask is God hidden. Yeah. Um one of the answers is hidden. Yeah. Um one of the answers is hidden. Yeah. Um one of the answers is that God is hidden because we're not that God is hidden because we're not that God is hidden because we're not looking for him because we don't want to looking for him because we don't want to looking for him because we don't want to find him. find him. find him. >> Uh that's one of the reasons he's you >> Uh that's one of the reasons he's you >> Uh that's one of the reasons he's you know we may not find him because we're know we may not find him because we're know we may not find him because we're not not not >> Yeah. He's there. He's just not Yeah. It >> Yeah. He's there. He's just not Yeah. It >> Yeah. He's there. He's just not Yeah. It might not be in the place that you're might not be in the place that you're might not be in the place that you're trying to find him. You're saying, trying to find him. You're saying, trying to find him. You're saying, >> "Yeah, I mean, Hebrews and and uh >> "Yeah, I mean, Hebrews and and uh >> "Yeah, I mean, Hebrews and and uh Jeremiah, Old Testament and New Jeremiah, Old Testament and New Jeremiah, Old Testament and New Testament, both say if you sincerely s Testament, both say if you sincerely s Testament, both say if you sincerely s seek God, you're going to find him."

seek God, you're going to find him." seek God, you're going to find him." >> So, uh if we seek him, we'll find him. >> So, uh if we seek him, we'll find him. >> So, uh if we seek him, we'll find him. But for so many, it doesn't say But for so many, it doesn't say But for so many, it doesn't say everybody's going to find him. Says everybody's going to find him. Says everybody's going to find him. Says those who seek him will find him. And those who seek him will find him. And those who seek him will find him. And those that don't care or those who those that don't care or those who those that don't care or those who suppress their uh the evidence they see suppress their uh the evidence they see suppress their uh the evidence they see around them that God exists are the and around them that God exists are the and around them that God exists are the and the ones who walk away from God are the the ones who walk away from God are the the ones who walk away from God are the ones ultimately that that God allows ones ultimately that that God allows ones ultimately that that God allows them to make that choice. I mean that's them to make that choice. I mean that's them to make that choice. I mean that's one of the things I I love so much about one of the things I I love so much about one of the things I I love so much about God. He gives us this choice. And if he God. He gives us this choice. And if he God. He gives us this choice. And if he were to make himself so obvious, um he were to make himself so obvious, um he were to make himself so obvious, um he takes away that choice because look at takes away that choice because look at takes away that choice because look at Isaiah when he encountered God. It was Isaiah when he encountered God. It was Isaiah when he encountered God. It was like um I am undone. Yeah. He he was he like um I am undone. Yeah. He he was he like um I am undone. Yeah. He he was he was he was torn apart emotionally seeing was he was torn apart emotionally seeing was he was torn apart emotionally seeing God on his throne. And um um so God has God on his throne. And um um so God has God on his throne. And um um so God has to modulate his level of exposure to us to modulate his level of exposure to us to modulate his level of exposure to us so that those who want to find him will so that those who want to find him will so that those who want to find him will find him and those who don't want to find him and those who don't want to find him and those who don't want to find him won't be coerced into believing find him won't be coerced into believing find him won't be coerced into believing in him but will um be free in their in him but will um be free in their in him but will um be free in their choice not to find him.

choice not to find him. choice not to find him. So, the last question I have, Lee, So, the last question I have, Lee, So, the last question I have, Lee, before we wrap up our time, is what before we wrap up our time, is what before we wrap up our time, is what advice would you give for people who who advice would you give for people who who advice would you give for people who who may not have engaged in like an active may not have engaged in like an active may not have engaged in like an active pursuit of apologetics before, but maybe pursuit of apologetics before, but maybe pursuit of apologetics before, but maybe they're now interested in asking they're now interested in asking they're now interested in asking questions themselves and seeking to questions themselves and seeking to questions themselves and seeking to answer, right? They've heard that kind answer, right? They've heard that kind answer, right? They've heard that kind of that charge that we've been offering of that charge that we've been offering of that charge that we've been offering throughout this this conversation and throughout this this conversation and throughout this this conversation and they want to take the next step. What they want to take the next step. What they want to take the next step. What advice would you have for them? advice would you have for them? advice would you have for them? Well, first of all, as we said earlier, Well, first of all, as we said earlier, Well, first of all, as we said earlier, don't be afraid of your questions. Um, don't be afraid of your questions. Um, don't be afraid of your questions. Um, you know, the you know, it's like it's you know, the you know, it's like it's you know, the you know, it's like it's like when you were a little kid and you like when you were a little kid and you like when you were a little kid and you had a nightmare. You know, you you wake had a nightmare. You know, you you wake had a nightmare. You know, you you wake up, you're sweating, you're scared to up, you're sweating, you're scared to up, you're sweating, you're scared to death, your heart's pounding, and what death, your heart's pounding, and what death, your heart's pounding, and what do you do? You run into your parents' do you do? You run into your parents' do you do? You run into your parents' bedroom and jump into their bed, and bedroom and jump into their bed, and bedroom and jump into their bed, and they say, "What's wrong?" And and I had they say, "What's wrong?" And and I had they say, "What's wrong?" And and I had I had a dream. It was horrible. And they I had a dream. It was horrible. And they I had a dream. It was horrible. And they say, "Tell me about the dream." Oh, say, "Tell me about the dream." Oh, say, "Tell me about the dream." Oh, well, there was this monster and he had well, there was this monster and he had well, there was this monster and he had five eyes and he was living under my bed five eyes and he was living under my bed five eyes and he was living under my bed and he was green. And then you start to and he was green. And then you start to and he was green. And then you start to laugh and you think, "How did I even get laugh and you think, "How did I even get laugh and you think, "How did I even get scared of this stupid dream?" And it scared of this stupid dream?" And it scared of this stupid dream?" And it loses the dream, the nightmare loses its loses the dream, the nightmare loses its loses the dream, the nightmare loses its effect on you when you talk about it.

effect on you when you talk about it. effect on you when you talk about it. And the same is true of doubts and And the same is true of doubts and And the same is true of doubts and questions. If you hold them in, if you questions. If you hold them in, if you questions. If you hold them in, if you say, "I don't want to admit I have say, "I don't want to admit I have say, "I don't want to admit I have questions or doubts because then people questions or doubts because then people questions or doubts because then people at church are going to think I'm not at church are going to think I'm not at church are going to think I'm not very spiritual." If you do that and you very spiritual." If you do that and you very spiritual." If you do that and you hold them in and you don't talk about hold them in and you don't talk about hold them in and you don't talk about it, you don't deal deal with it, they it, you don't deal deal with it, they it, you don't deal deal with it, they can erode your soul. But if you let it can erode your soul. But if you let it can erode your soul. But if you let it out and you get in a conversation with a out and you get in a conversation with a out and you get in a conversation with a mature believer or you read a book like mature believer or you read a book like mature believer or you read a book like Is God Real or many of the other books Is God Real or many of the other books Is God Real or many of the other books that talk about the evidence um and that talk about the evidence um and that talk about the evidence um and pursue answers, your faith will be pursue answers, your faith will be pursue answers, your faith will be stronger for having been refined like stronger for having been refined like stronger for having been refined like gold through the through the fire and um gold through the through the fire and um gold through the through the fire and um uh you'll find answers to satisfy your uh you'll find answers to satisfy your uh you'll find answers to satisfy your heart and soul. So I think that's the heart and soul. So I think that's the heart and soul. So I think that's the one of the key things I would say is one of the key things I would say is one of the key things I would say is don't don't hold this stuff in. pursue don't don't hold this stuff in. pursue don't don't hold this stuff in. pursue answers just like John the Baptist did. answers just like John the Baptist did. answers just like John the Baptist did. Go after answers because there are good Go after answers because there are good Go after answers because there are good uh resources out there these days. You uh resources out there these days. You uh resources out there these days. You know, when I was an atheist and began to know, when I was an atheist and began to know, when I was an atheist and began to investigate Christianity back in the the investigate Christianity back in the the investigate Christianity back in the the 1980s, 1980s, 1980s, um um there was very little out there um um there was very little out there um um there was very little out there for the average person to access. I for the average person to access. I for the average person to access. I mean, there were no hardly any popular mean, there were no hardly any popular mean, there were no hardly any popular level books on this stuff. Nowadays, level books on this stuff. Nowadays, level books on this stuff. Nowadays, there's a proliferation of wonderful there's a proliferation of wonderful there's a proliferation of wonderful resources out there that um I mentioned resources out there that um I mentioned resources out there that um I mentioned Jay Warner Wallace. He's got some Jay Warner Wallace. He's got some Jay Warner Wallace. He's got some terrific books and um so there's no terrific books and um so there's no terrific books and um so there's no shortage of people willing through these shortage of people willing through these shortage of people willing through these books to help you find answers. And books to help you find answers. And books to help you find answers. And honestly, church is a great place to go.

honestly, church is a great place to go. honestly, church is a great place to go. We think that uh people look down on We think that uh people look down on We think that uh people look down on their nose at us if we ask questions at their nose at us if we ask questions at their nose at us if we ask questions at a church. No, the the reality is that a church. No, the the reality is that a church. No, the the reality is that shows that you're willing to grow shows that you're willing to grow shows that you're willing to grow spiritually. You're willing to spiritually. You're willing to spiritually. You're willing to investigate spiritually. Three out of investigate spiritually. Three out of investigate spiritually. Three out of four US adults say they want to grow four US adults say they want to grow four US adults say they want to grow spiritually. Well, how do we grow spiritually. Well, how do we grow spiritually. Well, how do we grow spiritually? We ask questions and pursue spiritually? We ask questions and pursue spiritually? We ask questions and pursue answers. answers. answers. >> So, if that's if that's you, if that's >> So, if that's if that's you, if that's >> So, if that's if that's you, if that's the place that you're in, I'll put a the place that you're in, I'll put a the place that you're in, I'll put a bunch of resource links in the show bunch of resource links in the show bunch of resource links in the show notes to this below along with a link to notes to this below along with a link to notes to this below along with a link to be able to purchase Is God Real? Which be able to purchase Is God Real? Which be able to purchase Is God Real? Which is Lee's new book. Lee, thank you so is Lee's new book. Lee, thank you so is Lee's new book. Lee, thank you so much for your time. We're really excited much for your time. We're really excited much for your time. We're really excited for the launch of the new book to see for the launch of the new book to see for the launch of the new book to see what's going to happen with it as has what's going to happen with it as has what's going to happen with it as has happened with all of the rest of the happened with all of the rest of the happened with all of the rest of the Case for series, including the Case for Case for series, including the Case for Case for series, including the Case for Christ movie that came out a couple Christ movie that came out a couple Christ movie that came out a couple years ago. So, we're we're excited for years ago. So, we're we're excited for years ago. So, we're we're excited for how how people are really feeling that how how people are really feeling that how how people are really feeling that call to bolster their faith. They're call to bolster their faith. They're call to bolster their faith. They're seeing these as resources and they're seeing these as resources and they're seeing these as resources and they're stepping out into the world to reach stepping out into the world to reach stepping out into the world to reach people for Christ, which is I know your people for Christ, which is I know your people for Christ, which is I know your heart soul in all of this. So, so thank heart soul in all of this. So, so thank heart soul in all of this. So, so thank you so much for your ministry. Thank you so much for your ministry. Thank you so much for your ministry. Thank you, Jason, so much. I appreciate that.

you, Jason, so much. I appreciate that. you, Jason, so much. I appreciate that. If people want information about our If people want information about our If people want information about our center at Colorado Christian University center at Colorado Christian University center at Colorado Christian University for online courses, they can go to for online courses, they can go to for online courses, they can go to strobblecenter.com strobblecenter.com strobblecenter.com and all the information is there. But, and all the information is there. But, and all the information is there. But, um, I appreciate you. I appreciate what um, I appreciate you. I appreciate what um, I appreciate you. I appreciate what you're doing. I appreciate Saddleback you're doing. I appreciate Saddleback you're doing. I appreciate Saddleback Church and the impact impact it's had Church and the impact impact it's had Church and the impact impact it's had around the globe. And, um, I I'm I'm around the globe. And, um, I I'm I'm around the globe. And, um, I I'm I'm thankful to be a friend of your thankful to be a friend of your thankful to be a friend of your ministry. ministry. ministry. >> Perfect. Thank you, Leah. I appreciate >> Perfect. Thank you, Leah. I appreciate >> Perfect. Thank you, Leah. I appreciate your time. your time. your time. >> Thank you. God bless. [Music] [Music] If you enjoyed this episode, consider If you enjoyed this episode, consider If you enjoyed this episode, consider giving us a rating or review on iTunes. giving us a rating or review on iTunes. giving us a rating or review on iTunes. If you do, you'll help other people find If you do, you'll help other people find If you do, you'll help other people find us in the future. You can also listen to us in the future. You can also listen to us in the future. You can also listen to these episodes on YouTube. Just these episodes on YouTube. Just these episodes on YouTube. Just subscribe to the Saddleback Church subscribe to the Saddleback Church subscribe to the Saddleback Church YouTube channel for these conversations, YouTube channel for these conversations, YouTube channel for these conversations, plus lots of other video content. And if plus lots of other video content. And if plus lots of other video content. And if you are already listening to us on you are already listening to us on you are already listening to us on YouTube, subscribe to the Doable YouTube, subscribe to the Doable YouTube, subscribe to the Doable Disciplehip Podcast on Apple Podcast or Disciplehip Podcast on Apple Podcast or Disciplehip Podcast on Apple Podcast or your favorite podcasting app so you can your favorite podcasting app so you can your favorite podcasting app so you can listen in the car or wherever else you listen in the car or wherever else you listen in the car or wherever else you go. Don't forget to visit go. Don't forget to visit go. Don't forget to visit saddleback.com/doable saddleback.com/doable saddleback.com/doable to check out all of our previous to check out all of our previous to check out all of our previous episodes. And go to saddleback.com/grow episodes. And go to saddleback.com/grow episodes. And go to saddleback.com/grow to find spiritual growth resources and to find spiritual growth resources and to find spiritual growth resources and view a calendar of upcoming events.

view a calendar of upcoming events. view a calendar of upcoming events. Lastly, you can always get in touch with Lastly, you can always get in touch with Lastly, you can always get in touch with us by emailing [email protected]. us by emailing [email protected]. us by emailing [email protected]. Send us your thoughts. Send us your Send us your thoughts. Send us your Send us your thoughts. Send us your questions, your Bible questions, your questions, your Bible questions, your questions, your Bible questions, your life questions, whatever. Who knows? life questions, whatever. Who knows? life questions, whatever. Who knows? Your question might just inspire an Your question might just inspire an Your question might just inspire an upcoming episode. Thanks again for upcoming episode. Thanks again for upcoming episode. Thanks again for tuning in to Dubble Disciplehip. I'm tuning in to Dubble Disciplehip. I'm tuning in to Dubble Disciplehip. I'm Jason Wheelen and I hope you'll join us Jason Wheelen and I hope you'll join us Jason Wheelen and I hope you'll join us again next week. again next week. again next week. [Music]