Navigating the Bible: Hebrews

There were many priests under [music] There were many priests under [music] the old system, for death prevented them the old system, for death prevented them the old system, for death prevented them from remaining in office. from remaining in office. from remaining in office. But because Jesus lives forever, But because Jesus lives forever, But because Jesus lives forever, his priesthood lasts forever. his priesthood lasts forever. his priesthood lasts forever. Therefore, he is able once and forever Therefore, he is able once and forever Therefore, he is able once and forever to save those [music] who come to God to save those [music] who come to God to save those [music] who come to God through him. through him. through him. He lives forever He lives forever He lives forever to intercede [music] with God to intercede [music] with God to intercede [music] with God on their behalf. on their behalf. on their behalf. Hebrews chapter 7 verses 23 through 25. The book of Hebrews The book of Hebrews >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> is an interesting first step out of >> is an interesting first step out of >> is an interesting first step out of Paul's letters. Paul's letters. Paul's letters. In many ways, [music] Hebrews may even In many ways, [music] Hebrews may even In many ways, [music] Hebrews may even be better read earlier in a New [music] be better read earlier in a New [music] be better read earlier in a New [music] Testament reading Testament reading Testament reading because it has such a heavy focus because it has such a heavy focus because it has such a heavy focus on Old Testament stories. on Old Testament stories. on Old Testament stories. Hebrews [music] actually kind of reads Hebrews [music] actually kind of reads Hebrews [music] actually kind of reads like like like a connector or a bridge between Old and a connector or a bridge between Old and a connector or a bridge between Old and New Testaments, all the while at its New Testaments, all the while at its New Testaments, all the while at its heart heart heart being a book being a book being a book of comfort.

of comfort. of comfort. A book reminding of God's faithfulness. A book reminding of God's faithfulness. A book reminding of God's faithfulness. A book continuously [music] A book continuously [music] A book continuously [music] pointing pointing pointing to Christ. to Christ. to Christ. To help us [music] navigate the book of To help us [music] navigate the book of To help us [music] navigate the book of Hebrews Hebrews Hebrews is Dr. Amy Peeler, is Dr. Amy Peeler, is Dr. Amy Peeler, professor of New Testament at Wheaton professor of New Testament at Wheaton professor of New Testament at Wheaton [music] College and author of a [music] College and author of a [music] College and author of a commentary on Hebrews. commentary on Hebrews. commentary on Hebrews. My name is Jason Weelund and this is My name is Jason Weelund and this is My name is Jason Weelund and this is [music] Doable Discipleship. [music] Doable Discipleship. [music] Doable Discipleship. Navigating the Bible. Navigating the Bible. Navigating the Bible. Hebrews. All right, Dr. Amy Peeler, thank you so All right, Dr. Amy Peeler, thank you so much for being here today. I'm really much for being here today. I'm really much for being here today. I'm really excited to dive into Hebrews with you. excited to dive into Hebrews with you. excited to dive into Hebrews with you. >> Oh, Jason, thank you so much for >> Oh, Jason, thank you so much for >> Oh, Jason, thank you so much for inviting me. inviting me. inviting me. >> Um I I I wish that people could see and >> Um I I I wish that people could see and >> Um I I I wish that people could see and we are in audio format here, but but I we are in audio format here, but but I we are in audio format here, but but I but the brightness that is on your face but the brightness that is on your face but the brightness that is on your face right now, it just it and the big smile right now, it just it and the big smile right now, it just it and the big smile that you have as we get into this is is that you have as we get into this is is that you have as we get into this is is is making me excited to talk more about is making me excited to talk more about is making me excited to talk more about Hebrews. So, Hebrews. So, Hebrews. So, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I I just had to >> I I just had to >> I I just had to >> I love it. I love it so much.

>> I love it. I love it so much. >> I love it. I love it so much. >> had to start by commenting on that. Um >> had to start by commenting on that. Um >> had to start by commenting on that. Um okay. So, we've been spending a lot of okay. So, we've been spending a lot of okay. So, we've been spending a lot of time going through the Epistles in the time going through the Epistles in the time going through the Epistles in the New Testament, talking a lot about Paul, New Testament, talking a lot about Paul, New Testament, talking a lot about Paul, and now we find ourselves at Hebrews. and now we find ourselves at Hebrews. and now we find ourselves at Hebrews. And so, I'm I'm excited cuz we haven't And so, I'm I'm excited cuz we haven't And so, I'm I'm excited cuz we haven't really gotten to talk a whole lot about really gotten to talk a whole lot about really gotten to talk a whole lot about authorship lately. It's all been about authorship lately. It's all been about authorship lately. It's all been about like, well, Paul did this or there's like, well, Paul did this or there's like, well, Paul did this or there's some people who don't think Paul wrote some people who don't think Paul wrote some people who don't think Paul wrote there or whatever it is, but now we get there or whatever it is, but now we get there or whatever it is, but now we get to actually like have a interesting look to actually like have a interesting look to actually like have a interesting look at at Hebrews. So, what do you want to at at Hebrews. So, what do you want to at at Hebrews. So, what do you want to tell us about tell us about tell us about what we know or don't know about who what we know or don't know about who what we know or don't know about who wrote Hebrews, and then wrote Hebrews, and then wrote Hebrews, and then and kind of when maybe it was written, and kind of when maybe it was written, and kind of when maybe it was written, and how do these things, authorship, and how do these things, authorship, and how do these things, authorship, timeline, how do these things affect how timeline, how do these things affect how timeline, how do these things affect how we approach reading the book? we approach reading the book? we approach reading the book? >> Oh, that's exactly the right question. >> Oh, that's exactly the right question. >> Oh, that's exactly the right question. And we really are in different And we really are in different And we really are in different territory. So, it sounds like you've territory. So, it sounds like you've territory. So, it sounds like you've already introduced conversations that in already introduced conversations that in already introduced conversations that in biblical scholarship, like late 1700s, biblical scholarship, like late 1700s, biblical scholarship, like late 1700s, 1800s, people started asking questions 1800s, people started asking questions 1800s, people started asking questions about some of the letters of Paul. about some of the letters of Paul. about some of the letters of Paul. Hebrews is really different because from Hebrews is really different because from Hebrews is really different because from the very beginning, people are asking the very beginning, people are asking the very beginning, people are asking questions. Because of course, when questions. Because of course, when questions. Because of course, when people open their Bibles, we don't have people open their Bibles, we don't have people open their Bibles, we don't have that normal kind of letter format.

that normal kind of letter format. that normal kind of letter format. There's not a name, I so-and-so I'm There's not a name, I so-and-so I'm There's not a name, I so-and-so I'm writing you, so-and-so. It just goes. writing you, so-and-so. It just goes. writing you, so-and-so. It just goes. Like it's just this beautiful sermon, in Like it's just this beautiful sermon, in Like it's just this beautiful sermon, in many and various ways long ago. So, from many and various ways long ago. So, from many and various ways long ago. So, from the beginning, Christians have not the beginning, Christians have not the beginning, Christians have not known, and I think that's really known, and I think that's really known, and I think that's really beautiful. So, the the clearest answer beautiful. So, the the clearest answer beautiful. So, the the clearest answer is, we really don't know. is, we really don't know. is, we really don't know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And brothers and sisters throughout time >> And brothers and sisters throughout time >> And brothers and sisters throughout time have really not known who wrote this. have really not known who wrote this. have really not known who wrote this. Now, there are some good suggestions, Now, there are some good suggestions, Now, there are some good suggestions, and Paul is one of them. That's because and Paul is one of them. That's because and Paul is one of them. That's because in one of the earliest manuscript in one of the earliest manuscript in one of the earliest manuscript collections, Hebrews is slotted right collections, Hebrews is slotted right collections, Hebrews is slotted right alongside other Pauline letters, and alongside other Pauline letters, and alongside other Pauline letters, and anyone who reads through it is going to anyone who reads through it is going to anyone who reads through it is going to find a lot of resonance. A focus on what find a lot of resonance. A focus on what find a lot of resonance. A focus on what God has done in Jesus, even some of the God has done in Jesus, even some of the God has done in Jesus, even some of the same verses from the Old Testament are same verses from the Old Testament are same verses from the Old Testament are cited in other letters of Paul and in cited in other letters of Paul and in cited in other letters of Paul and in Hebrews. Hebrews. Hebrews. I personally don't adopt that position. I personally don't adopt that position. I personally don't adopt that position. Mainly, not only because the language is Mainly, not only because the language is Mainly, not only because the language is a little bit different when you read the a little bit different when you read the a little bit different when you read the Greek. I mean, if I can be I think Paul Greek. I mean, if I can be I think Paul Greek. I mean, if I can be I think Paul is brilliant, but his Greek is not this is brilliant, but his Greek is not this is brilliant, but his Greek is not this good. good. good. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> This person's Greek is really top-shelf.

>> This person's Greek is really top-shelf. >> This person's Greek is really top-shelf. So, there's some of that difference, but So, there's some of that difference, but So, there's some of that difference, but that could be explained in a variety of that could be explained in a variety of that could be explained in a variety of ways. For me, in chapter two, this ways. For me, in chapter two, this ways. For me, in chapter two, this author says, he's talking about author says, he's talking about author says, he's talking about salvation, and he says, "Salvation was salvation, and he says, "Salvation was salvation, and he says, "Salvation was spoken by the Lord, and then it was spoken by the Lord, and then it was spoken by the Lord, and then it was confirmed unto us by those who had confirmed unto us by those who had confirmed unto us by those who had heard." So, basically puts himself one heard." So, basically puts himself one heard." So, basically puts himself one step removed from Jesus. And if you read step removed from Jesus. And if you read step removed from Jesus. And if you read how intensely Paul fights for his claim how intensely Paul fights for his claim how intensely Paul fights for his claim to be an apostle, especially in to be an apostle, especially in to be an apostle, especially in Galatians, I just don't think that Paul Galatians, I just don't think that Paul Galatians, I just don't think that Paul offhanded would be like, "Oh yeah, I offhanded would be like, "Oh yeah, I offhanded would be like, "Oh yeah, I never encountered Jesus. I totally heard never encountered Jesus. I totally heard never encountered Jesus. I totally heard about salvation from someone else." about salvation from someone else." about salvation from someone else." I am I am really pretty firmly convinced I am I am really pretty firmly convinced I am I am really pretty firmly convinced that that's not Paul, but I do think that that's not Paul, but I do think that that's not Paul, but I do think this person is a friend of Paul. And this person is a friend of Paul. And this person is a friend of Paul. And therefore, really throughout church therefore, really throughout church therefore, really throughout church history, there've been suggestions of history, there've been suggestions of history, there've been suggestions of all these different friends of Paul. all these different friends of Paul. all these different friends of Paul. Maybe it's Luke, who also has really Maybe it's Luke, who also has really Maybe it's Luke, who also has really good Greek. Maybe it's Barnabas. Luther good Greek. Maybe it's Barnabas. Luther good Greek. Maybe it's Barnabas. Luther suggested that it was Apollos, and your suggested that it was Apollos, and your suggested that it was Apollos, and your listeners maybe would want to flip back listeners maybe would want to flip back listeners maybe would want to flip back to Acts 18, and we learn about Apollos. to Acts 18, and we learn about Apollos. to Acts 18, and we learn about Apollos. He studied the scriptures, he's good at He studied the scriptures, he's good at He studied the scriptures, he's good at rhetoric, and this book displays study rhetoric, and this book displays study rhetoric, and this book displays study of Greek rhetoric.

of Greek rhetoric. of Greek rhetoric. Friends with Paul, knew the scriptures, Friends with Paul, knew the scriptures, Friends with Paul, knew the scriptures, as a good orator, all as was a Jew, was as a good orator, all as was a Jew, was as a good orator, all as was a Jew, was in Christ. All of these things say, in Christ. All of these things say, in Christ. All of these things say, "Yeah, these things could fit." So, of "Yeah, these things could fit." So, of "Yeah, these things could fit." So, of the names that we have in the New the names that we have in the New the names that we have in the New Testament, I think Apollos is our best Testament, I think Apollos is our best Testament, I think Apollos is our best option. option. option. >> Great. >> Great. >> Great. >> But don't know for for >> But don't know for for >> But don't know for for >> And that's part of the fun with it. >> And that's part of the fun with it. >> And that's part of the fun with it. >> ahead. >> ahead. >> ahead. >> No, I was just going to say I think >> No, I was just going to say I think >> No, I was just going to say I think that's part of the fun with it because that's part of the fun with it because that's part of the fun with it because we don't come with some of the baggage we don't come with some of the baggage we don't come with some of the baggage that you get when you're like, "Ah, that you get when you're like, "Ah, that you get when you're like, "Ah, yeah, we know what this is and we can yeah, we know what this is and we can yeah, we know what this is and we can get into it." Instead, you're looking at get into it." Instead, you're looking at get into it." Instead, you're looking at it for the word like for the ideas it's it for the word like for the ideas it's it for the word like for the ideas it's presenting, for the words that it's presenting, for the words that it's presenting, for the words that it's using and you're using and you're using and you're and not trying to ascribe something to and not trying to ascribe something to and not trying to ascribe something to it, "Well, Paul was dealing with this at it, "Well, Paul was dealing with this at it, "Well, Paul was dealing with this at the time. He's responding to this." the time. He's responding to this." the time. He's responding to this." Instead, it's like, "Actually, we can Instead, it's like, "Actually, we can Instead, it's like, "Actually, we can It's It's almost like a little bit of It's It's almost like a little bit of It's It's almost like a little bit of fresh air if like we can actually just fresh air if like we can actually just fresh air if like we can actually just take it for what it's saying." And take it for what it's saying." And take it for what it's saying." And there's a lot to say in this. So, it is there's a lot to say in this. So, it is there's a lot to say in this. So, it is kind of a fun little kind of a fun little kind of a fun little kind of little nugget that like, you kind of little nugget that like, you kind of little nugget that like, you know, God, you know, knew that Hebrews know, God, you know, knew that Hebrews know, God, you know, knew that Hebrews would be a part of the canon of would be a part of the canon of would be a part of the canon of scripture and said, "I'm going to give scripture and said, "I'm going to give scripture and said, "I'm going to give you this little fresh little bit here."

you this little fresh little bit here." you this little fresh little bit here." >> That's right. Oh, that's a beautiful way >> That's right. Oh, that's a beautiful way >> That's right. Oh, that's a beautiful way to think about it. I really And you ask to think about it. I really And you ask to think about it. I really And you ask the really good question like what the really good question like what the really good question like what difference does it make for us? difference does it make for us? difference does it make for us? Sometimes these authorship questions can Sometimes these authorship questions can Sometimes these authorship questions can seem kind of arcane. Why do they matter? seem kind of arcane. Why do they matter? seem kind of arcane. Why do they matter? But I think there are two actually But I think there are two actually But I think there are two actually powerful things that matter for us as powerful things that matter for us as powerful things that matter for us as readers of scripture, one who want to readers of scripture, one who want to readers of scripture, one who want to align our lives with the text of the align our lives with the text of the align our lives with the text of the Bible. Bible. Bible. One is that Hebrews is in our canon and One is that Hebrews is in our canon and One is that Hebrews is in our canon and that's actually really powerful that we that's actually really powerful that we that's actually really powerful that we have it in the New Testament because one have it in the New Testament because one have it in the New Testament because one of the primary qualifications is you had of the primary qualifications is you had of the primary qualifications is you had to know who wrote it and it had to be to know who wrote it and it had to be to know who wrote it and it had to be someone who was directly connected with someone who was directly connected with someone who was directly connected with Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. But Hebrews is so powerful in what it But Hebrews is so powerful in what it But Hebrews is so powerful in what it tell us about Jesus that he is fully God tell us about Jesus that he is fully God tell us about Jesus that he is fully God and fully human. It proved itself and fully human. It proved itself and fully human. It proved itself indispensable for early Christian indispensable for early Christian indispensable for early Christian theology when they're trying to figure theology when they're trying to figure theology when they're trying to figure out how do we say that there is one God out how do we say that there is one God out how do we say that there is one God and Jesus is God. And Hebrews was and Jesus is God. And Hebrews was and Jesus is God. And Hebrews was necessary in that work. And then people necessary in that work. And then people necessary in that work. And then people said, "Well, we don't exactly know, but said, "Well, we don't exactly know, but said, "Well, we don't exactly know, but there's probably someone who's attached there's probably someone who's attached there's probably someone who's attached to Paul in some way." So, okay, that's to Paul in some way." So, okay, that's to Paul in some way." So, okay, that's good enough. But that speaks to the good enough. But that speaks to the good enough. But that speaks to the power of its theology. The second thing power of its theology. The second thing power of its theology. The second thing and this was something that I discovered and this was something that I discovered and this was something that I discovered in my work on my dissertation, which is in my work on my dissertation, which is in my work on my dissertation, which is kind of where I had my first kind of kind of where I had my first kind of kind of where I had my first kind of encounter with Hebrews academically, encounter with Hebrews academically, encounter with Hebrews academically, is that this author, I think, very is that this author, I think, very is that this author, I think, very intentionally kind of steps in the intentionally kind of steps in the intentionally kind of steps in the background because the method of background because the method of background because the method of citation is really unique. Every time citation is really unique. Every time citation is really unique. Every time the Old Testament is introduced, which the Old Testament is introduced, which the Old Testament is introduced, which is more so than any other book of the is more so than any other book of the is more so than any other book of the New Testament,

New Testament, New Testament, uh it's unlike what we have in the uh it's unlike what we have in the uh it's unlike what we have in the Pauline letters, where Paul will say, Pauline letters, where Paul will say, Pauline letters, where Paul will say, "It is written." Talking about the text "It is written." Talking about the text "It is written." Talking about the text of the Old Testament as written of the Old Testament as written of the Old Testament as written documents. Every time this author says, documents. Every time this author says, documents. Every time this author says, "It is spoken. God speaks." Or the Holy "It is spoken. God speaks." Or the Holy "It is spoken. God speaks." Or the Holy Spirit speaks. And so, we get this very Spirit speaks. And so, we get this very Spirit speaks. And so, we get this very live encounter with God's voice brought live encounter with God's voice brought live encounter with God's voice brought to us in the words of Israel's to us in the words of Israel's to us in the words of Israel's scriptures. And I see that as a way this scriptures. And I see that as a way this scriptures. And I see that as a way this author is kind of like, "I I don't author is kind of like, "I I don't author is kind of like, "I I don't matter that much. I want you to listen matter that much. I want you to listen matter that much. I want you to listen to God." And I thought, "What a good to God." And I thought, "What a good to God." And I thought, "What a good mode that is for ministry of any form, mode that is for ministry of any form, mode that is for ministry of any form, maybe teaching or preaching." Yes, we maybe teaching or preaching." Yes, we maybe teaching or preaching." Yes, we need to work hard. This person studied need to work hard. This person studied need to work hard. This person studied and thought very carefully, very, very and thought very carefully, very, very and thought very carefully, very, very brilliant. But is not that concerned brilliant. But is not that concerned brilliant. But is not that concerned with their own accolades or their own with their own accolades or their own with their own accolades or their own recognition. They're like, "I just want recognition. They're like, "I just want recognition. They're like, "I just want you to hear from God. So, I'm going to you to hear from God. So, I'm going to you to hear from God. So, I'm going to put God forward first." So, I think the put God forward first." So, I think the put God forward first." So, I think the anonymity anonymity anonymity uh uh uh both tells us the power of Hebrews both tells us the power of Hebrews both tells us the power of Hebrews theology and also gives us a mode not theology and also gives us a mode not theology and also gives us a mode not unlike John the Baptist. I want him to unlike John the Baptist. I want him to unlike John the Baptist. I want him to increase and I'm going to decrease. And increase and I'm going to decrease. And increase and I'm going to decrease. And that's okay.

that's okay. that's okay. >> I love that. Um okay, so now I get to >> I love that. Um okay, so now I get to >> I love that. Um okay, so now I get to pose to you perhaps the hardest question pose to you perhaps the hardest question pose to you perhaps the hardest question of of of the lot. How would you describe of of of the lot. How would you describe of of of the lot. How would you describe the book of Hebrews in one sentence? the book of Hebrews in one sentence? the book of Hebrews in one sentence? >> Ooh, I love that. And I've changed my >> Ooh, I love that. And I've changed my >> Ooh, I love that. And I've changed my answer to this question over [laughter] answer to this question over [laughter] answer to this question over [laughter] the years. But here's where I've landed the years. But here's where I've landed the years. But here's where I've landed for the last, I don't know, maybe three for the last, I don't know, maybe three for the last, I don't know, maybe three or four years. The one who promised is or four years. The one who promised is or four years. The one who promised is faithful. faithful. faithful. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And there's a lot packed in that phrase. >> And there's a lot packed in that phrase. >> And there's a lot packed in that phrase. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yes, which we will get in It really >> Yes, which we will get in It really >> Yes, which we will get in It really hearken It really puts a mind back to as hearken It really puts a mind back to as hearken It really puts a mind back to as we were as we had gone through this we were as we had gone through this we were as we had gone through this series going through the prophets, that series going through the prophets, that series going through the prophets, that was a common theme that we discovered was a common theme that we discovered was a common theme that we discovered through the prophets as we're talking through the prophets as we're talking through the prophets as we're talking about it. It was a lot of these about it. It was a lot of these about it. It was a lot of these one-sentence descriptions was really one-sentence descriptions was really one-sentence descriptions was really focused on the faithfulness of God. And focused on the faithfulness of God. And focused on the faithfulness of God. And so it so it's interesting that you that so it so it's interesting that you that so it so it's interesting that you that you pull that out, especially because you pull that out, especially because you pull that out, especially because there's so much Old Testament discussion there's so much Old Testament discussion there's so much Old Testament discussion going on in Hebrews. So going on in Hebrews. So going on in Hebrews. So so let's let's cling on to that for a so let's let's cling on to that for a so let's let's cling on to that for a second. But first let's talk about the second. But first let's talk about the second. But first let's talk about the trajectory of the letter. So what is the trajectory of the letter. So what is the trajectory of the letter. So what is the author taking us through from chapter 1 author taking us through from chapter 1 author taking us through from chapter 1 through chapter 13? What's going on through chapter 13? What's going on through chapter 13? What's going on throughout the course of Hebrews?

throughout the course of Hebrews? throughout the course of Hebrews? >> Wow, that's also a great question. And I >> Wow, that's also a great question. And I >> Wow, that's also a great question. And I don't know that the answer is don't know that the answer is don't know that the answer is satisfactory satisfactory satisfactory in the sense that that Hebrews is also a in the sense that that Hebrews is also a in the sense that that Hebrews is also a little weird here, too, and that I don't little weird here, too, and that I don't little weird here, too, and that I don't I don't ever conceive of the book as I don't ever conceive of the book as I don't ever conceive of the book as linear. It's not point A to point B. linear. It's not point A to point B. linear. It's not point A to point B. It's more cyclical. People will notice It's more cyclical. People will notice It's more cyclical. People will notice that the author kind of goes back and that the author kind of goes back and that the author kind of goes back and forth between a lot of citation of the forth between a lot of citation of the forth between a lot of citation of the Old Testament and then life application. Old Testament and then life application. Old Testament and then life application. And then more citation of the And then more citation of the And then more citation of the And so I some scholars have suggested And so I some scholars have suggested And so I some scholars have suggested maybe this is a homily or like a maybe this is a homily or like a maybe this is a homily or like a synagogue sermon. synagogue sermon. synagogue sermon. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> But I like the idea, and I think it's >> But I like the idea, and I think it's >> But I like the idea, and I think it's more fitting, that maybe this is a more fitting, that maybe this is a more fitting, that maybe this is a sermon series sermon series sermon series >> Yeah, that's That's the That's the exact >> Yeah, that's That's the That's the exact >> Yeah, that's That's the That's the exact thought that I had as you were saying thought that I had as you were saying thought that I had as you were saying that. I was like, it sounds like that. I was like, it sounds like that. I was like, it sounds like multiple messages that you kind of got multiple messages that you kind of got multiple messages that you kind of got put together into put together into put together into >> Exactly. Exactly. So but how do you get >> Exactly. Exactly. So but how do you get >> Exactly. Exactly. So but how do you get Where do you get I mean, it really does Where do you get I mean, it really does Where do you get I mean, it really does start with this majestic start with this majestic start with this majestic opening about who is Jesus, like the the opening about who is Jesus, like the the opening about who is Jesus, like the the identity of the son. And chapter 1 is identity of the son. And chapter 1 is identity of the son. And chapter 1 is largely Jesus the son is God. All of largely Jesus the son is God. All of largely Jesus the son is God. All of these attributes and qualities of these attributes and qualities of these attributes and qualities of divinity, eternal, sovereign, creator.

divinity, eternal, sovereign, creator. divinity, eternal, sovereign, creator. And then chapter 2 is just as robust to And then chapter 2 is just as robust to And then chapter 2 is just as robust to say this son became human, really flesh say this son became human, really flesh say this son became human, really flesh and blood all the way to the point of and blood all the way to the point of and blood all the way to the point of death, trial and temptation. So those death, trial and temptation. So those death, trial and temptation. So those stand right next to each other as a stand right next to each other as a stand right next to each other as a foundation like we need to know who foundation like we need to know who foundation like we need to know who Jesus is. And these people have already Jesus is. And these people have already Jesus is. And these people have already confessed like a little bit about the confessed like a little bit about the confessed like a little bit about the situation. This is not evangelistic. The situation. This is not evangelistic. The situation. This is not evangelistic. The author's not hey, I want to tell you author's not hey, I want to tell you author's not hey, I want to tell you about Jesus kind of Gospel of John-ish about Jesus kind of Gospel of John-ish about Jesus kind of Gospel of John-ish or even kind of Romans Road prophet. No, or even kind of Romans Road prophet. No, or even kind of Romans Road prophet. No, they've already made a confession of they've already made a confession of they've already made a confession of Christ. So he starts I think with Christ. So he starts I think with Christ. So he starts I think with largely what they agree, but then he largely what they agree, but then he largely what they agree, but then he shifts his focus again to how do they shifts his focus again to how do they shifts his focus again to how do they trust God's faithfulness cuz they're trust God's faithfulness cuz they're trust God's faithfulness cuz they're also persecuted. We know that they're also persecuted. We know that they're also persecuted. We know that they're struggling. struggling. struggling. So how do they endure in their faith? So how do they endure in their faith? So how do they endure in their faith? And the ingenious thing that the author And the ingenious thing that the author And the ingenious thing that the author does is to say yes, Jesus is divine and does is to say yes, Jesus is divine and does is to say yes, Jesus is divine and human. We already believe that. He's human. We already believe that. He's human. We already believe that. He's also our high priest. And you know this also our high priest. And you know this also our high priest. And you know this whole thing in Israel about the whole thing in Israel about the whole thing in Israel about the sacrificial system like this a really sacrificial system like this a really sacrificial system like this a really important piece that Paul says very important piece that Paul says very important piece that Paul says very little about actually. I think this guy little about actually. I think this guy little about actually. I think this guy is a friend of Paul's and he's like is a friend of Paul's and he's like is a friend of Paul's and he's like Paul, you have like two or three things Paul, you have like two or three things Paul, you have like two or three things about sacrifice and atonement that about sacrifice and atonement that about sacrifice and atonement that matters. I'm going to kind of run with matters. I'm going to kind of run with matters. I'm going to kind of run with that. And I'm going to introduce this that. And I'm going to introduce this that. And I'm going to introduce this language into Christian theology that language into Christian theology that language into Christian theology that Jesus is our high priest. And that Jesus is our high priest. And that Jesus is our high priest. And that serves as really the center of the serves as really the center of the serves as really the center of the letter.

letter. letter. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> What does it mean that he has sacrificed >> What does it mean that he has sacrificed >> What does it mean that he has sacrificed himself for us? What does it mean that himself for us? What does it mean that himself for us? What does it mean that he's advocating for us at the right hand he's advocating for us at the right hand he's advocating for us at the right hand of the Father? Actually today of the Father? Actually today of the Father? Actually today Christian tradition honors the feast of Christian tradition honors the feast of Christian tradition honors the feast of the Ascension today. So Christians the Ascension today. So Christians the Ascension today. So Christians across the world throughout time on this across the world throughout time on this across the world throughout time on this day we're remembering that Luke tells us day we're remembering that Luke tells us day we're remembering that Luke tells us at the end of Luke beginning of Acts and at the end of Luke beginning of Acts and at the end of Luke beginning of Acts and Hebrews reflects upon it that Jesus is Hebrews reflects upon it that Jesus is Hebrews reflects upon it that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father at the right hand of the Father at the right hand of the Father advocating for us. That is the ministry advocating for us. That is the ministry advocating for us. That is the ministry of his priesthood. And then it concludes of his priesthood. And then it concludes of his priesthood. And then it concludes in a very practical way. Chapter 13 is in a very practical way. Chapter 13 is in a very practical way. Chapter 13 is just this like boo boo boo boo boo boo just this like boo boo boo boo boo boo just this like boo boo boo boo boo boo boo like boo like boo like hot focus on all of these topics of how hot focus on all of these topics of how hot focus on all of these topics of how do you be faithful? Very practical do you be faithful? Very practical do you be faithful? Very practical things with marriage and money and things with marriage and money and things with marriage and money and visiting those who are in prison. visiting those who are in prison. visiting those who are in prison. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then this beautiful benediction that >> And then this beautiful benediction that >> And then this beautiful benediction that God is God is God is shepherding us through the great shepherding us through the great shepherding us through the great shepherd the son and bringing us to full shepherd the son and bringing us to full shepherd the son and bringing us to full restitution uh to do God's will. restitution uh to do God's will. restitution uh to do God's will. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, it is a beautiful letter. The >> So, it is a beautiful letter. The >> So, it is a beautiful letter. The language is so elegant. Many people will language is so elegant. Many people will language is so elegant. Many people will know Hebrews because it has these like know Hebrews because it has these like know Hebrews because it has these like great one-liners. Our God is a consuming great one-liners. Our God is a consuming great one-liners. Our God is a consuming fire. It's a fearful thing to fall into fire. It's a fearful thing to fall into fire. It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Uh Jesus is the hands of the living God. Uh Jesus is the hands of the living God. Uh Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

the same yesterday, today, and forever. the same yesterday, today, and forever. But, when you embed those uh kind of like one one-liner theology, when you like one one-liner theology, when you embed them in context, it's so rich. embed them in context, it's so rich. embed them in context, it's so rich. >> One thing we that I think is worth >> One thing we that I think is worth >> One thing we that I think is worth touching on a little bit more because touching on a little bit more because touching on a little bit more because you brought it up was was the difference you brought it up was was the difference you brought it up was was the difference in here between kind of the emphasis as in here between kind of the emphasis as in here between kind of the emphasis as having spent so much time through having spent so much time through having spent so much time through through Paul's letters and having all through Paul's letters and having all through Paul's letters and having all this emphasis on justification, on the this emphasis on justification, on the this emphasis on justification, on the church, and here and knowing that his church, and here and knowing that his church, and here and knowing that his audience was written to the Gentile audience was written to the Gentile audience was written to the Gentile audience. audience. audience. >> Mhm. Right. >> Mhm. Right. >> Mhm. Right. >> um in this one again with all of the Old >> um in this one again with all of the Old >> um in this one again with all of the Old Testament image I all all the calling Testament image I all all the calling Testament image I all all the calling back it to back it to back it to the sacrificial system, the high priest the sacrificial system, the high priest the sacrificial system, the high priest system, it seems very clear that it's system, it seems very clear that it's system, it seems very clear that it's written maybe for a different audience. written maybe for a different audience. written maybe for a different audience. So, what can you say about who this is So, what can you say about who this is So, what can you say about who this is being written for? being written for? being written for? >> Yeah, that's actually a fun kind of >> Yeah, that's actually a fun kind of >> Yeah, that's actually a fun kind of debate among Hebrews scholars. debate among Hebrews scholars. debate among Hebrews scholars. So, accordingly So, accordingly So, accordingly right, we have the name to the Hebrews. right, we have the name to the Hebrews. right, we have the name to the Hebrews. That tells you something. A large part That tells you something. A large part That tells you something. A large part of church history has imagined that of church history has imagined that of church history has imagined that these people are of Jewish background.

these people are of Jewish background. these people are of Jewish background. And you really do have to know a lot And you really do have to know a lot And you really do have to know a lot about the Old Testament for this letter about the Old Testament for this letter about the Old Testament for this letter to make sense. I often say if someone to make sense. I often say if someone to make sense. I often say if someone thinks about preaching it, you probably thinks about preaching it, you probably thinks about preaching it, you probably should do a series on Leviticus first. should do a series on Leviticus first. should do a series on Leviticus first. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] And then you can come to Hebrews, and And then you can come to Hebrews, and And then you can come to Hebrews, and then you'll be ready. then you'll be ready. then you'll be ready. >> popular series on Leviticus. >> popular series on Leviticus. >> popular series on Leviticus. >> Exactly. Why aren't people doing this? >> Exactly. Why aren't people doing this? >> Exactly. Why aren't people doing this? Yes. That would be amazing. Yes. That would be amazing. Yes. That would be amazing. Um so, that makes good sense, and that Um so, that makes good sense, and that Um so, that makes good sense, and that very well could be the case that they very well could be the case that they very well could be the case that they have grown up um as part members of the have grown up um as part members of the have grown up um as part members of the covenant. Now they've come to confess covenant. Now they've come to confess covenant. Now they've come to confess Jesus, and the author is filling that Jesus, and the author is filling that Jesus, and the author is filling that out for them. In recent years, there's out for them. In recent years, there's out for them. In recent years, there's been a growing interest in the been a growing interest in the been a growing interest in the possibility, especially based on some of possibility, especially based on some of possibility, especially based on some of the things said at the end of chapter the things said at the end of chapter the things said at the end of chapter five and into chapter six about their five and into chapter six about their five and into chapter six about their former way of life that maybe these are former way of life that maybe these are former way of life that maybe these are Gentiles that they've been instructed in Gentiles that they've been instructed in Gentiles that they've been instructed in the way of Israel. Corinthians becomes the way of Israel. Corinthians becomes the way of Israel. Corinthians becomes an interesting test case. These people an interesting test case. These people an interesting test case. These people are not Jewish and yet Paul can say our are not Jewish and yet Paul can say our are not Jewish and yet Paul can say our fathers and you know the story of the fathers and you know the story of the fathers and you know the story of the Exodus. So anyone who becomes Exodus. So anyone who becomes Exodus. So anyone who becomes an adherent to Jesus the Messiah is an adherent to Jesus the Messiah is an adherent to Jesus the Messiah is going to learn about Israel and so maybe going to learn about Israel and so maybe going to learn about Israel and so maybe that's a possibility. I think that's a that's a possibility. I think that's a that's a possibility. I think that's a little bit of in-house baseball little bit of in-house baseball little bit of in-house baseball >> Sure.

>> Sure. >> Sure. >> inside of baseball of like we don't know >> inside of baseball of like we don't know >> inside of baseball of like we don't know their ethnicity at the end of the day their ethnicity at the end of the day their ethnicity at the end of the day and there are substantive and good and there are substantive and good and there are substantive and good arguments on either side. arguments on either side. arguments on either side. All that we know is that they've All that we know is that they've All that we know is that they've confessed Christ. They are being confessed Christ. They are being confessed Christ. They are being persecuted. They've not been martyred persecuted. They've not been martyred persecuted. They've not been martyred yet and so they need some real yet and so they need some real yet and so they need some real encouragement to keep going. encouragement to keep going. encouragement to keep going. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. So let's get into some of the major So let's get into some of the major So let's get into some of the major themes of this book. What would you say themes of this book. What would you say themes of this book. What would you say are the are the major themes of Hebrews are the are the major themes of Hebrews are the are the major themes of Hebrews and I like to ask you this well how does and I like to ask you this well how does and I like to ask you this well how does knowing these things affect our reading knowing these things affect our reading knowing these things affect our reading of it? How do we approach it having now of it? How do we approach it having now of it? How do we approach it having now looking for these themes? looking for these themes? looking for these themes? >> Yes. Yes, that's good. >> Yes. Yes, that's good. >> Yes. Yes, that's good. So I've often thought about one reason I So I've often thought about one reason I So I've often thought about one reason I love Hebrews is that it brings into love Hebrews is that it brings into love Hebrews is that it brings into combination things that we might imagine combination things that we might imagine combination things that we might imagine are dichotomies. are dichotomies. are dichotomies. So I've already mentioned probably the So I've already mentioned probably the So I've already mentioned probably the primary theme and that is the identity primary theme and that is the identity primary theme and that is the identity of Christ and we have lots of names for of Christ and we have lots of names for of Christ and we have lots of names for Jesus throughout the New Testament. Jesus throughout the New Testament. Jesus throughout the New Testament. Hebrews primarily focuses on two that he Hebrews primarily focuses on two that he Hebrews primarily focuses on two that he is the son of God is the son of God is the son of God and so his relationship with the father and so his relationship with the father and so his relationship with the father is very important to lay out and that he is very important to lay out and that he is very important to lay out and that he is high priest on our behalf and that is high priest on our behalf and that is high priest on our behalf and that was nobody else. I know sometimes in our was nobody else. I know sometimes in our was nobody else. I know sometimes in our Bibles we think well John 17 the high Bibles we think well John 17 the high Bibles we think well John 17 the high priestly prayer but that's just a priestly prayer but that's just a priestly prayer but that's just a marginal note. I mean that's just like marginal note. I mean that's just like marginal note. I mean that's just like editors put that in. That's not in the editors put that in. That's not in the editors put that in. That's not in the Bible. I think it's fitting but it the Bible. I think it's fitting but it the Bible. I think it's fitting but it the only author of the New Testament who only author of the New Testament who only author of the New Testament who uses this language explicitly is uses this language explicitly is uses this language explicitly is Hebrews.

Hebrews. Hebrews. And so those things sonship and And so those things sonship and And so those things sonship and priesthood that's really powerful and if priesthood that's really powerful and if priesthood that's really powerful and if listeners like I grew up in the church, listeners like I grew up in the church, listeners like I grew up in the church, you're like, "Oh, yeah, Jesus, prophet, you're like, "Oh, yeah, Jesus, prophet, you're like, "Oh, yeah, Jesus, prophet, priest, and king." You kind of got that. priest, and king." You kind of got that. priest, and king." You kind of got that. But to think how fresh this was for the But to think how fresh this was for the But to think how fresh this was for the author to say, "Let's think about the author to say, "Let's think about the author to say, "Let's think about the Jewish sacrificial system." The priest Jewish sacrificial system." The priest Jewish sacrificial system." The priest offers these sacrifices so that a holy offers these sacrifices so that a holy offers these sacrifices so that a holy God can dwell with a not holy people. God can dwell with a not holy people. God can dwell with a not holy people. But the fact that the priest would offer But the fact that the priest would offer But the fact that the priest would offer himself, no one had ever thought about himself, no one had ever thought about himself, no one had ever thought about that before. I have the great privilege that before. I have the great privilege that before. I have the great privilege of being in a Jewish-Christian dialogue of being in a Jewish-Christian dialogue of being in a Jewish-Christian dialogue group. And I was brought in last year group. And I was brought in last year group. And I was brought in last year sometime to go through Hebrews. sometime to go through Hebrews. sometime to go through Hebrews. And some of the rabbis there had not And some of the rabbis there had not And some of the rabbis there had not really been exposed to it at all. When I really been exposed to it at all. When I really been exposed to it at all. When I kind of explain it, they're like, "Wait. kind of explain it, they're like, "Wait. kind of explain it, they're like, "Wait. So, you're saying this perfect priest So, you're saying this perfect priest So, you're saying this perfect priest offers himself? offers himself? offers himself? Well, then that would mean that you Well, then that would mean that you Well, then that would mean that you don't need the sacrificial system don't need the sacrificial system don't need the sacrificial system anymore." [laughter] anymore." [laughter] anymore." [laughter] You got it. You got it. You got it. It was a such an amazing conversation It was a such an amazing conversation It was a such an amazing conversation with someone who knew that way of being with someone who knew that way of being with someone who knew that way of being and understood sacrifice in a way that I and understood sacrifice in a way that I and understood sacrifice in a way that I never will. Like the light bulb was just never will. Like the light bulb was just never will. Like the light bulb was just immediate. This would be radical if a immediate. This would be radical if a immediate. This would be radical if a priest sacrifices himself and if he is a priest sacrifices himself and if he is a priest sacrifices himself and if he is a perfect priest.

perfect priest. perfect priest. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, that freshness I really would want >> So, that freshness I really would want >> So, that freshness I really would want people to capture. There's another theme people to capture. There's another theme people to capture. There's another theme then a dichotomy that God is then a dichotomy that God is then a dichotomy that God is depicted as incredibly holy in this depicted as incredibly holy in this depicted as incredibly holy in this letter, maybe even fearful. Right? I've letter, maybe even fearful. Right? I've letter, maybe even fearful. Right? I've already kind of alluded to these one already kind of alluded to these one already kind of alluded to these one sentence. It is a fearful thing to fall sentence. It is a fearful thing to fall sentence. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. into the hands of the living God. into the hands of the living God. Jonathan Edwards took that for his Jonathan Edwards took that for his Jonathan Edwards took that for his famous sermon. famous sermon. famous sermon. And you have these warning passages. I And you have these warning passages. I And you have these warning passages. I was first kind of drawn to Hebrews as a was first kind of drawn to Hebrews as a was first kind of drawn to Hebrews as a young person around 15 cuz I read some young person around 15 cuz I read some young person around 15 cuz I read some of these warning passages that seemed to of these warning passages that seemed to of these warning passages that seemed to say, "If you sin willfully, there no say, "If you sin willfully, there no say, "If you sin willfully, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin." longer remains a sacrifice for sin." longer remains a sacrifice for sin." Uh Esau repented with tears, but he Uh Esau repented with tears, but he Uh Esau repented with tears, but he couldn't get the blessing. Kind of couldn't get the blessing. Kind of couldn't get the blessing. Kind of sounds like if you do a certain kind of sounds like if you do a certain kind of sounds like if you do a certain kind of sin, you're out forever. And that's sin, you're out forever. And that's sin, you're out forever. And that's sobering. sobering. sobering. God is depicted in majesty and holiness God is depicted in majesty and holiness God is depicted in majesty and holiness and at the same time you have this and at the same time you have this and at the same time you have this unassailable assurance of the grace unassailable assurance of the grace unassailable assurance of the grace given in Christ that you can approach given in Christ that you can approach given in Christ that you can approach the throne of grace to find help in time the throne of grace to find help in time the throne of grace to find help in time of need. That though we are being though of need. That though we are being though of need. That though we are being though we are being sanctified, we're also we are being sanctified, we're also we are being sanctified, we're also perfect in Christ. That we are Christ's perfect in Christ. That we are Christ's perfect in Christ. That we are Christ's inheritance and that all things will be inheritance and that all things will be inheritance and that all things will be brought under his feet and we are a part brought under his feet and we are a part brought under his feet and we are a part of his household. So, God's graciousness of his household. So, God's graciousness of his household. So, God's graciousness and holiness, which really are affirmed and holiness, which really are affirmed and holiness, which really are affirmed throughout scripture, are held very throughout scripture, are held very throughout scripture, are held very tightly together in Hebrews and those tightly together in Hebrews and those tightly together in Hebrews and those themes are so important. And then that themes are so important. And then that themes are so important. And then that really manifests in the primary really manifests in the primary really manifests in the primary application theme for the listeners to

application theme for the listeners to application theme for the listeners to know who they are in Christ. That they know who they are in Christ. That they know who they are in Christ. That they are part of God's household. They are are part of God's household. They are are part of God's household. They are God's family. And again, that may be God's family. And again, that may be God's family. And again, that may be very common to us, but the way in which very common to us, but the way in which very common to us, but the way in which that's developed in Hebrews is really that's developed in Hebrews is really that's developed in Hebrews is really powerful. That God trains us. Chapter 12 powerful. That God trains us. Chapter 12 powerful. That God trains us. Chapter 12 has become incredibly formative for my has become incredibly formative for my has become incredibly formative for my spiritual life. God lets us go through spiritual life. God lets us go through spiritual life. God lets us go through hard things. Not because God hates us or hard things. Not because God hates us or hard things. Not because God hates us or is ignoring us, but because God has is ignoring us, but because God has is ignoring us, but because God has considered us worthy of going through a considered us worthy of going through a considered us worthy of going through a process of maturation. process of maturation. process of maturation. So, God is our father. And then we are So, God is our father. And then we are So, God is our father. And then we are made holy in Christ and therefore we made holy in Christ and therefore we made holy in Christ and therefore we have this assurance to keep going. At have this assurance to keep going. At have this assurance to keep going. At the end, you have this race motif, which the end, you have this race motif, which the end, you have this race motif, which I love as a runner, that we keep our I love as a runner, that we keep our I love as a runner, that we keep our eyes focused on Jesus so that we can run eyes focused on Jesus so that we can run eyes focused on Jesus so that we can run the race with endurance looking unto the race with endurance looking unto the race with endurance looking unto him, the author and perfecter of our him, the author and perfecter of our him, the author and perfecter of our faith. faith. faith. So, that endurance theme, knowing who So, that endurance theme, knowing who So, that endurance theme, knowing who you are so you can keep going, you are so you can keep going, you are so you can keep going, those are also brought together. And those are also brought together. And those are also brought together. And then just historically, it is such a then just historically, it is such a then just historically, it is such a great example not only of being great example not only of being great example not only of being attentive to Israel's scripture, attentive to Israel's scripture, attentive to Israel's scripture, Israel's sacrificial system, but it's Israel's sacrificial system, but it's Israel's sacrificial system, but it's also very Greek and Roman. It gets also very Greek and Roman. It gets also very Greek and Roman. It gets rhetoric. It gets the education system.

rhetoric. It gets the education system. rhetoric. It gets the education system. It's a beautiful picture of that It's a beautiful picture of that It's a beautiful picture of that Hellenized Judaism that is the fertile Hellenized Judaism that is the fertile Hellenized Judaism that is the fertile soil for Christianity in the first soil for Christianity in the first soil for Christianity in the first century. century. century. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. I I I couldn't help but think as as you I I I couldn't help but think as as you I I I couldn't help but think as as you were talking about these themes, it were talking about these themes, it were talking about these themes, it seems like a book seems like a book seems like a book that is that is that is read really well in partnership with the read really well in partnership with the read really well in partnership with the other other other with the Pauline letters. Like reading with the Pauline letters. Like reading with the Pauline letters. Like reading Romans and Hebrews together, reading Romans and Hebrews together, reading Romans and Hebrews together, reading Galatians and Hebrews together, right? Galatians and Hebrews together, right? Galatians and Hebrews together, right? A lot of Paul's letters is it's a We had A lot of Paul's letters is it's a We had A lot of Paul's letters is it's a We had a fun exercise in doing this series of a fun exercise in doing this series of a fun exercise in doing this series of kind of tracing like like when Paul was kind of tracing like like when Paul was kind of tracing like like when Paul was writing these letters and kind of what writing these letters and kind of what writing these letters and kind of what may you know, how long he had been in may you know, how long he had been in may you know, how long he had been in ministry, how many churches he had ministry, how many churches he had ministry, how many churches he had planted. It was kind of interesting planted. It was kind of interesting planted. It was kind of interesting little way of looking at it was how how little way of looking at it was how how little way of looking at it was how how how the context of the writing would how the context of the writing would how the context of the writing would affect, you know, what he chose to affect, you know, what he chose to affect, you know, what he chose to emphasize or how how he answered. Um but emphasize or how how he answered. Um but emphasize or how how he answered. Um but Hebrews, as you say like because of the Hebrews, as you say like because of the Hebrews, as you say like because of the themes that it really focuses in on and themes that it really focuses in on and themes that it really focuses in on and presents in a little bit of a different presents in a little bit of a different presents in a little bit of a different way with that Old Testament emphasis, way with that Old Testament emphasis, way with that Old Testament emphasis, it's an interesting partnership to be it's an interesting partnership to be it's an interesting partnership to be reading them like side by side in many reading them like side by side in many reading them like side by side in many cases cuz you can see these two two cases cuz you can see these two two cases cuz you can see these two two approaches to the same truths, but these approaches to the same truths, but these approaches to the same truths, but these two different approaches and it kind of two different approaches and it kind of two different approaches and it kind of creates a beautiful mosaic picture that creates a beautiful mosaic picture that creates a beautiful mosaic picture that looks beautiful together.

looks beautiful together. looks beautiful together. >> Absolutely. I really think that they >> Absolutely. I really think that they >> Absolutely. I really think that they were friends and whomever this author were friends and whomever this author were friends and whomever this author the and and so we're the and and so we're the and and so we're using their own skills and their own using their own skills and their own using their own skills and their own situations to give us this gift of this situations to give us this gift of this situations to give us this gift of this whole picture. And of course we need whole picture. And of course we need whole picture. And of course we need Peter and Jude and James and all the Peter and Jude and James and all the Peter and Jude and James and all the rest, but rest, but rest, but Hebrews and and Paul are meant to go Hebrews and and Paul are meant to go Hebrews and and Paul are meant to go together. Yes, I think so. together. Yes, I think so. together. Yes, I think so. >> So what does Hebrews teach us about God? >> So what does Hebrews teach us about God? >> So what does Hebrews teach us about God? >> Wow. This aspect that it really One reason I This aspect that it really One reason I chose to focus on Hebrews as a doctoral chose to focus on Hebrews as a doctoral chose to focus on Hebrews as a doctoral student is that I knew I wanted to go student is that I knew I wanted to go student is that I knew I wanted to go into undergraduate teaching and I into undergraduate teaching and I into undergraduate teaching and I thought Hebrews would help me stay thought Hebrews would help me stay thought Hebrews would help me stay conversant with the whole canon. I conversant with the whole canon. I conversant with the whole canon. I didn't want to kind of get locked into didn't want to kind of get locked into didn't want to kind of get locked into one place. I wanted to be able to teach one place. I wanted to be able to teach one place. I wanted to be able to teach well across all of God's word. well across all of God's word. well across all of God's word. And Hebrews does that, and it has And Hebrews does that, and it has And Hebrews does that, and it has impacted me with a way of seeing God's impacted me with a way of seeing God's impacted me with a way of seeing God's incredible grace to the people of incredible grace to the people of incredible grace to the people of Israel. Sometimes some phrases in Israel. Sometimes some phrases in Israel. Sometimes some phrases in Hebrews might sound like, "Oh, that Hebrews might sound like, "Oh, that Hebrews might sound like, "Oh, that whole priest stuff and that tabernacle, whole priest stuff and that tabernacle, whole priest stuff and that tabernacle, that was like a bad idea. Let's do plan that was like a bad idea. Let's do plan that was like a bad idea. Let's do plan B."

B." B." It's growing old, it's near It's growing old, it's near It's growing old, it's near disappearing, the law doesn't perfect disappearing, the law doesn't perfect disappearing, the law doesn't perfect anything. There are some negative anything. There are some negative anything. There are some negative statements if you kind of cherry-pick statements if you kind of cherry-pick statements if you kind of cherry-pick them out. But if you listen to them in them out. But if you listen to them in them out. But if you listen to them in the whole, the author is saying the only the whole, the author is saying the only the whole, the author is saying the only way we can really understand what Jesus way we can really understand what Jesus way we can really understand what Jesus is doing is because God got us ready is doing is because God got us ready is doing is because God got us ready with this amazingly gracious system. One with this amazingly gracious system. One with this amazingly gracious system. One of my favorite examples of that is the of my favorite examples of that is the of my favorite examples of that is the language of shadow, that the law is the language of shadow, that the law is the language of shadow, that the law is the shadow. And the picture that makes shadow. And the picture that makes shadow. And the picture that makes really good sense to me is that like really good sense to me is that like really good sense to me is that like imagine you're sitting on the ground imagine you're sitting on the ground imagine you're sitting on the ground somewhere. Imagine it's a sunny day. somewhere. Imagine it's a sunny day. somewhere. Imagine it's a sunny day. Maybe you're kind of looking out over a Maybe you're kind of looking out over a Maybe you're kind of looking out over a hill or journaling or whatever. And you hill or journaling or whatever. And you hill or journaling or whatever. And you notice from behind you like a shadow on notice from behind you like a shadow on notice from behind you like a shadow on the ground. the ground. the ground. That shadow means That shadow means That shadow means in this instance, I'm going to have it in this instance, I'm going to have it in this instance, I'm going to have it mean that a person is approaching. So, mean that a person is approaching. So, mean that a person is approaching. So, the shadow is a like you can see maybe the shadow is a like you can see maybe the shadow is a like you can see maybe the outline. You don't know fully, but the outline. You don't know fully, but the outline. You don't know fully, but that's if if you like the person who's that's if if you like the person who's that's if if you like the person who's coming, that's a good thing. That that coming, that's a good thing. That that coming, that's a good thing. That that helps you feel out that something good helps you feel out that something good helps you feel out that something good is on the horizon. That's how I see how is on the horizon. That's how I see how is on the horizon. That's how I see how the author talks about the priesthood the author talks about the priesthood the author talks about the priesthood and the tabernacle and the law. This is and the tabernacle and the law. This is and the tabernacle and the law. This is a beautiful signpost, and it is a way of a beautiful signpost, and it is a way of a beautiful signpost, and it is a way of God clarifying, "Hey, I am holy. You God clarifying, "Hey, I am holy. You God clarifying, "Hey, I am holy. You aren't. I could just leave you to your aren't. I could just leave you to your aren't. I could just leave you to your own devices, but I've, you know, come up own devices, but I've, you know, come up own devices, but I've, you know, come up with all of these intricate patterns of with all of these intricate patterns of with all of these intricate patterns of relating not to put a burden upon you, relating not to put a burden upon you, relating not to put a burden upon you, but because I want my presence to be but because I want my presence to be but because I want my presence to be among you. And I'm getting you ready for among you. And I'm getting you ready for among you. And I'm getting you ready for my presence to not just be among you in my presence to not just be among you in my presence to not just be among you in this kind of manifestation of cloud and

this kind of manifestation of cloud and this kind of manifestation of cloud and glory, but personified in the person of glory, but personified in the person of glory, but personified in the person of the son who becomes one of you. the son who becomes one of you. the son who becomes one of you. But we wouldn't have known how to But we wouldn't have known how to But we wouldn't have known how to understand the depth of the cross and understand the depth of the cross and understand the depth of the cross and the majesty and the impossibility of us the majesty and the impossibility of us the majesty and the impossibility of us being with a holy God save God making a being with a holy God save God making a being with a holy God save God making a way if we didn't have that entire way if we didn't have that entire way if we didn't have that entire system. system. system. >> Yeah, it really puts things to like as a >> Yeah, it really puts things to like as a >> Yeah, it really puts things to like as a way to digest everything from the Old way to digest everything from the Old way to digest everything from the Old Testament, the whole everything that Testament, the whole everything that Testament, the whole everything that that if you've been reading through the that if you've been reading through the that if you've been reading through the can it's like, "Hey, all of that stuff can it's like, "Hey, all of that stuff can it's like, "Hey, all of that stuff that you read about was important and that you read about was important and that you read about was important and served a right? served a right? served a right? And yes, you had read a whole bunch of And yes, you had read a whole bunch of And yes, you had read a whole bunch of these letters and the story of and these letters and the story of and these letters and the story of and Jesus' life through the Gospels which Jesus' life through the Gospels which Jesus' life through the Gospels which was which is wonderful and and let me was which is wonderful and and let me was which is wonderful and and let me show you how they connect and it's kind show you how they connect and it's kind show you how they connect and it's kind of a beautiful thing that Hebrews does of a beautiful thing that Hebrews does of a beautiful thing that Hebrews does almost serving as the bridge, the key almost serving as the bridge, the key almost serving as the bridge, the key between Old and New Testaments here. between Old and New Testaments here. between Old and New Testaments here. >> Yeah. Oh, that makes me think I mean we >> Yeah. Oh, that makes me think I mean we >> Yeah. Oh, that makes me think I mean we can't go back and redo the canon, but can't go back and redo the canon, but can't go back and redo the canon, but >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> might might might it be good if Hebrews >> might might might it be good if Hebrews >> might might might it be good if Hebrews was the first book of the New Testament was the first book of the New Testament was the first book of the New Testament and not Matthew? How interesting would and not Matthew? How interesting would and not Matthew? How interesting would that be to say, "Okay, let's stitch them that be to say, "Okay, let's stitch them that be to say, "Okay, let's stitch them together."

together." together." >> Doesn't hurt to encourage people, "Hey, >> Doesn't hurt to encourage people, "Hey, >> Doesn't hurt to encourage people, "Hey, let's let's read this and then let's let's let's read this and then let's let's let's read this and then let's dive into this." Which is which is hey, dive into this." Which is which is hey, dive into this." Which is which is hey, for you listening if you're doing a for you listening if you're doing a for you listening if you're doing a reading the Bible here through a year reading the Bible here through a year reading the Bible here through a year plan or whatever it is, I consider plan or whatever it is, I consider plan or whatever it is, I consider switching some things around a little switching some things around a little switching some things around a little bit and that's okay. That's okay. bit and that's okay. That's okay. bit and that's okay. That's okay. Okay, what does Hebrews teach us about Okay, what does Hebrews teach us about Okay, what does Hebrews teach us about people about ourselves? people about ourselves? people about ourselves? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Hebrews Hebrews Hebrews teaches us that we cannot do teaches us that we cannot do teaches us that we cannot do Christianity alone. Christianity alone. Christianity alone. There and all of the New Testament is There and all of the New Testament is There and all of the New Testament is very communal, right? It was birthed very communal, right? It was birthed very communal, right? It was birthed among a people and in a time that among a people and in a time that among a people and in a time that kind of didn't struggle with kind of didn't struggle with kind of didn't struggle with individualism in ways that maybe our my individualism in ways that maybe our my individualism in ways that maybe our my growing up society did. growing up society did. growing up society did. But there is still an is focused on the But there is still an is focused on the But there is still an is focused on the individual heart matters. I think this individual heart matters. I think this individual heart matters. I think this is most clear in chapter 3 where you do is most clear in chapter 3 where you do is most clear in chapter 3 where you do have a lot of heart language. Make sure have a lot of heart language. Make sure have a lot of heart language. Make sure there's not this evil heart of unbelief. there's not this evil heart of unbelief. there's not this evil heart of unbelief. Interrogate yourself, but the way to Interrogate yourself, but the way to Interrogate yourself, but the way to prevent yourself from walking away from prevent yourself from walking away from prevent yourself from walking away from God and that really is the chief concern God and that really is the chief concern God and that really is the chief concern in this letter, apostasy is kind of the in this letter, apostasy is kind of the in this letter, apostasy is kind of the theological word, but it just means to theological word, but it just means to theological word, but it just means to turn away. Say, "Hey God, I know what turn away. Say, "Hey God, I know what turn away. Say, "Hey God, I know what you did in Jesus. I don't want that you did in Jesus. I don't want that you did in Jesus. I don't want that anymore." The best prevention for that anymore." The best prevention for that anymore." The best prevention for that in chapter 3 is encourage one another.

in chapter 3 is encourage one another. in chapter 3 is encourage one another. Now that sounds so simple, right? I'll Now that sounds so simple, right? I'll Now that sounds so simple, right? I'll send a card or like, you know, get send a card or like, you know, get send a card or like, you know, get coffee with someone. But the necessity coffee with someone. But the necessity coffee with someone. But the necessity of being in community together is a big of being in community together is a big of being in community together is a big feature of this letter. feature of this letter. feature of this letter. And that when we have each other And that when we have each other And that when we have each other supporting and that's also true in supporting and that's also true in supporting and that's also true in chapter 12. He's like this race motif. chapter 12. He's like this race motif. chapter 12. He's like this race motif. If your hands if your knees get weak, If your hands if your knees get weak, If your hands if your knees get weak, you need someone else to help carry you. you need someone else to help carry you. you need someone else to help carry you. So I I often have students especially at So I I often have students especially at So I I often have students especially at a Christian college who may say, "Well, a Christian college who may say, "Well, a Christian college who may say, "Well, I get a lot of Bible while I'm here, a I get a lot of Bible while I'm here, a I get a lot of Bible while I'm here, a lot of theology. Do I have to go to lot of theology. Do I have to go to lot of theology. Do I have to go to church?" And my clear answer is yes. church?" And my clear answer is yes. church?" And my clear answer is yes. Yes, you do actually. Yes, you do actually. Yes, you do actually. >> Let me tell you about ecclesiology and >> Let me tell you about ecclesiology and >> Let me tell you about ecclesiology and why we believe you need to go to church. why we believe you need to go to church. why we believe you need to go to church. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Exactly. And Hebrews >> Exactly. And Hebrews >> Exactly. And Hebrews that does such a good job of saying you that does such a good job of saying you that does such a good job of saying you cannot do this on your own. cannot do this on your own. cannot do this on your own. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Jesus wants you to have this family, >> Jesus wants you to have this family, >> Jesus wants you to have this family, these brothers and sisters around you. these brothers and sisters around you. these brothers and sisters around you. There's much more, but that's often what There's much more, but that's often what There's much more, but that's often what rises to the surface for me is the first rises to the surface for me is the first rises to the surface for me is the first thing it tells us. thing it tells us. thing it tells us. >> Yeah, you've mentioned the race motif >> Yeah, you've mentioned the race motif >> Yeah, you've mentioned the race motif and I have to say I relate to nothing and I have to say I relate to nothing and I have to say I relate to nothing less because with a bad back and bad less because with a bad back and bad less because with a bad back and bad neck neck neck running does not suit me.

running does not suit me. running does not suit me. Uh Uh Uh >> not for everyone. [laughter] It is not >> not for everyone. [laughter] It is not >> not for everyone. [laughter] It is not for everyone. Yeah. for everyone. Yeah. for everyone. Yeah. >> But I I I couldn't help but think too >> But I I I couldn't help but think too >> But I I I couldn't help but think too like to go back to the idea of maybe like to go back to the idea of maybe like to go back to the idea of maybe this was Apollos this was Apollos this was Apollos uh who may have written this letter, uh who may have written this letter, uh who may have written this letter, right? Cuz there's, you know, the right? Cuz there's, you know, the right? Cuz there's, you know, the well-known part of Paul planted, Apollos well-known part of Paul planted, Apollos well-known part of Paul planted, Apollos watered. And this is a great picture of watered. And this is a great picture of watered. And this is a great picture of Apollos water. If this is truly was, it Apollos water. If this is truly was, it Apollos water. If this is truly was, it speaks perfectly to how Apollos speaks perfectly to how Apollos speaks perfectly to how Apollos approached his approached his role in approached his approached his role in approached his approached his role in ministry and how he served these ministry and how he served these ministry and how he served these churches. It doesn't read like a church churches. It doesn't read like a church churches. It doesn't read like a church planter like somebody who is is planter like somebody who is is planter like somebody who is is answering these questions about how to answering these questions about how to answering these questions about how to do that it it reads like somebody who's do that it it reads like somebody who's do that it it reads like somebody who's who's talking with people who have been who's talking with people who have been who's talking with people who have been in the faith a little bit and is driving in the faith a little bit and is driving in the faith a little bit and is driving at these issue of encouragement of at these issue of encouragement of at these issue of encouragement of pointing back of making these deeper pointing back of making these deeper pointing back of making these deeper connections of as you said in connections of as you said in connections of as you said in encouraging away from apostasy of encouraging away from apostasy of encouraging away from apostasy of keeping people keeping people keeping people pointed in the right direction. pointed in the right direction. pointed in the right direction. So, it it just if you read it in that So, it it just if you read it in that So, it it just if you read it in that light is you can kind of see the light is you can kind of see the light is you can kind of see the watering going on in here. watering going on in here. watering going on in here. >> It's kind of like a 2.0 book. Like it's >> It's kind of like a 2.0 book. Like it's >> It's kind of like a 2.0 book. Like it's not the basics and that's why it's not the basics and that's why it's not the basics and that's why it's really fun to use as discipleship. Like really fun to use as discipleship. Like really fun to use as discipleship. Like it's it's not I think a lot of young it's it's not I think a lot of young it's it's not I think a lot of young people especially are hungry for hard people especially are hungry for hard people especially are hungry for hard and real answers. They don't want to be and real answers. They don't want to be and real answers. They don't want to be kind of pandered to with easy kind of pandered to with easy kind of pandered to with easy Christianity. They want something ask of Christianity. They want something ask of Christianity. They want something ask of them. And Hebrews does that. It it takes them. And Hebrews does that. It it takes them. And Hebrews does that. It it takes devotion and attention and it's saying, devotion and attention and it's saying, devotion and attention and it's saying, "Hey, discipleship "Hey, discipleship "Hey, discipleship easy, but it's absolutely worth it. And

easy, but it's absolutely worth it. And easy, but it's absolutely worth it. And you have Jesus himself who shows you the you have Jesus himself who shows you the you have Jesus himself who shows you the way and who's praying for you to finish way and who's praying for you to finish way and who's praying for you to finish well." well." well." >> Now, I think you know, a lot of people >> Now, I think you know, a lot of people >> Now, I think you know, a lot of people know Hebrews know Hebrews know Hebrews maybe best from chapter 11 and I can maybe best from chapter 11 and I can maybe best from chapter 11 and I can hear them through the speaker right now hear them through the speaker right now hear them through the speaker right now as they're listening saying, "You as they're listening saying, "You as they're listening saying, "You haven't talked yet about Hebrews 11." haven't talked yet about Hebrews 11." haven't talked yet about Hebrews 11." So, what can you So, so let's appease So, what can you So, so let's appease So, what can you So, so let's appease the people here. What can you say about the people here. What can you say about the people here. What can you say about Hebrews 11? [laughter] Hebrews 11? [laughter] Hebrews 11? [laughter] >> I love it. You know, that kind of >> I love it. You know, that kind of >> I love it. You know, that kind of discloses and I and I realized this in discloses and I and I realized this in discloses and I and I realized this in the writing of my commentary and people the writing of my commentary and people the writing of my commentary and people may hate me for saying this, [laughter] may hate me for saying this, [laughter] may hate me for saying this, [laughter] but it was it was my least favorite but it was it was my least favorite but it was it was my least favorite chapter. chapter. chapter. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Awful. I know. True confession. >> Awful. I know. True confession. >> Awful. I know. True confession. something something something Because it really is something kind of Because it really is something kind of Because it really is something kind of unique. So, you have this unique. So, you have this unique. So, you have this the whole letter is really making an the whole letter is really making an the whole letter is really making an argument. Like, how are you going to argument. Like, how are you going to argument. Like, how are you going to live? It's deliberative rhetoric. It's live? It's deliberative rhetoric. It's live? It's deliberative rhetoric. It's very intentional. Here's the truth. How very intentional. Here's the truth. How very intentional. Here's the truth. How are you going to endure? are you going to endure? are you going to endure? And 11 is this whole different thing. And 11 is this whole different thing. And 11 is this whole different thing. It's kind of poetry. It's kind of like, It's kind of poetry. It's kind of like, It's kind of poetry. It's kind of like, now for something different.

now for something different. now for something different. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I came in the and I when I wrote my >> I came in the and I when I wrote my >> I came in the and I when I wrote my commentary, I wrote that chapter first. commentary, I wrote that chapter first. commentary, I wrote that chapter first. Exactly. [laughter] Exactly. [laughter] Exactly. [laughter] Eat your vegetables first and then you Eat your vegetables first and then you Eat your vegetables first and then you get the ice cream. get the ice cream. get the ice cream. And it's long. Oh, it's so long. Which I And it's long. Oh, it's so long. Which I And it's long. Oh, it's so long. Which I know all my Old Testament colleagues are know all my Old Testament colleagues are know all my Old Testament colleagues are like, cry me a river, right? like, cry me a river, right? like, cry me a river, right? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> IT'S LIKE, WHAT ARE YOU WE HAVE NOTHING >> IT'S LIKE, WHAT ARE YOU WE HAVE NOTHING >> IT'S LIKE, WHAT ARE YOU WE HAVE NOTHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT. ANYHOW, but in giving TO COMPLAIN ABOUT. ANYHOW, but in giving TO COMPLAIN ABOUT. ANYHOW, but in giving it close attention, I just came away it close attention, I just came away it close attention, I just came away with such an appreciation of these with such an appreciation of these with such an appreciation of these stories that are told and the threads stories that are told and the threads stories that are told and the threads that connect them. One major thread that that connect them. One major thread that that connect them. One major thread that became apparent to me is that all of became apparent to me is that all of became apparent to me is that all of these stories of people being faithful these stories of people being faithful these stories of people being faithful what they're facing is some expression what they're facing is some expression what they're facing is some expression of death. Right? Abel dies. Enoch of death. Right? Abel dies. Enoch of death. Right? Abel dies. Enoch doesn't. doesn't. doesn't. Abraham has to sacrifice his son. Sarah Abraham has to sacrifice his son. Sarah Abraham has to sacrifice his son. Sarah and Abraham, even before that a son is and Abraham, even before that a son is and Abraham, even before that a son is born, their bodies are as good as dead. born, their bodies are as good as dead. born, their bodies are as good as dead. Moses faces death. Moses faces death. Moses faces death. I think this author is drawing these I think this author is drawing these I think this author is drawing these stories to say, friends, you might have stories to say, friends, you might have stories to say, friends, you might have to endure for a very long time and you to endure for a very long time and you to endure for a very long time and you might face death because of your might face death because of your might face death because of your confession of Christ. I want you to know confession of Christ. I want you to know confession of Christ. I want you to know that faith is not just for this life.

that faith is not just for this life. that faith is not just for this life. Faith, because of the resurrection of Faith, because of the resurrection of Faith, because of the resurrection of Christ, you hope for something beyond Christ, you hope for something beyond Christ, you hope for something beyond death. And that will help you endure in death. And that will help you endure in death. And that will help you endure in the here and now. the here and now. the here and now. And and faith also is not blind. I And and faith also is not blind. I And and faith also is not blind. I really appreciate this about chapter 11 really appreciate this about chapter 11 really appreciate this about chapter 11 as well. as well. as well. You line up all of these stories to say, You line up all of these stories to say, You line up all of these stories to say, look at what God has done in the past look at what God has done in the past look at what God has done in the past over and over again. over and over again. over and over again. What do you think God's going to do now? What do you think God's going to do now? What do you think God's going to do now? Do something totally different? Do something totally different? Do something totally different? Completely abandon you? Probably not, Completely abandon you? Probably not, Completely abandon you? Probably not, right? God is rather consistent. But how right? God is rather consistent. But how right? God is rather consistent. But how often in our lives, right? It's like the often in our lives, right? It's like the often in our lives, right? It's like the people of Israel. God provided and people of Israel. God provided and people of Israel. God provided and provided and provided, and then they provided and provided, and then they provided and provided, and then they complain and not trust. I I do the same complain and not trust. I I do the same complain and not trust. I I do the same thing, right? I need that reminder, that thing, right? I need that reminder, that thing, right? I need that reminder, that kind of moment to look back. And maybe kind of moment to look back. And maybe kind of moment to look back. And maybe this is why Hebrews rhetorically is a this is why Hebrews rhetorically is a this is why Hebrews rhetorically is a little bit different. It is kind of a little bit different. It is kind of a little bit different. It is kind of a pause. Let's pause for a minute. pause. Let's pause for a minute. pause. Let's pause for a minute. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> Let's consider parts of the story. Don't >> Let's consider parts of the story. Don't >> Let's consider parts of the story. Don't we think that God's going to be we think that God's going to be we think that God's going to be consistent and act with the same kind of consistent and act with the same kind of consistent and act with the same kind of character? And nothing can stand in character? And nothing can stand in character? And nothing can stand in God's way, not even death itself. And God's way, not even death itself. And God's way, not even death itself. And then it culminates in this amazing then it culminates in this amazing then it culminates in this amazing picture of like all the faithful are picture of like all the faithful are picture of like all the faithful are cheering us on, and we're enduring, and cheering us on, and we're enduring, and cheering us on, and we're enduring, and we had to wait until the right time so we had to wait until the right time so we had to wait until the right time so we could all be together. And we will we could all be together. And we will we could all be together. And we will all be together on God's heavenly all be together on God's heavenly all be together on God's heavenly Jerusalem, and that's really where it Jerusalem, and that's really where it Jerusalem, and that's really where it ends in chapter 12. And then chapter 13 ends in chapter 12. And then chapter 13 ends in chapter 12. And then chapter 13 are all these great, important, are all these great, important, are all these great, important, practical things, but the kind of high practical things, but the kind of high practical things, but the kind of high watermark, the like where the music watermark, the like where the music watermark, the like where the music soars is at the end of chapter 12, where soars is at the end of chapter 12, where soars is at the end of chapter 12, where we're all together with all of the we're all together with all of the we're all together with all of the faithful. And Jesus is our mediator.

faithful. And Jesus is our mediator. faithful. And Jesus is our mediator. >> Well, now that I've gotten you to talk >> Well, now that I've gotten you to talk >> Well, now that I've gotten you to talk about your least favorite chapter, I can about your least favorite chapter, I can about your least favorite chapter, I can >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I yeah I I get to offer you the >> I yeah I I get to offer you the >> I yeah I I get to offer you the opportunity to talk about some of your opportunity to talk about some of your opportunity to talk about some of your favorite parts. So So what are like two favorite parts. So So what are like two favorite parts. So So what are like two or so like of your of of you could be or so like of your of of you could be or so like of your of of you could be verses, chapters, passages, whatever verses, chapters, passages, whatever verses, chapters, passages, whatever that you think are particularly worth that you think are particularly worth that you think are particularly worth paying extra attention to? paying extra attention to? paying extra attention to? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um so Um so Um so as a young person, when I really as a young person, when I really as a young person, when I really struggled with those warning passages, struggled with those warning passages, struggled with those warning passages, where I and I had such good mentors who where I and I had such good mentors who where I and I had such good mentors who who encouraged me not to run away from who encouraged me not to run away from who encouraged me not to run away from scripture, but to press in. I really scripture, but to press in. I really scripture, but to press in. I really think that's where my identity as an think that's where my identity as an think that's where my identity as an exegete might have been born. And and so exegete might have been born. And and so exegete might have been born. And and so I'm grateful for the wrestling that I I'm grateful for the wrestling that I I'm grateful for the wrestling that I did. But for me early on, 10:14, um he's did. But for me early on, 10:14, um he's did. But for me early on, 10:14, um he's perfected forever those who are being perfected forever those who are being perfected forever those who are being sanctified. That was a recognition, hey, sanctified. That was a recognition, hey, sanctified. That was a recognition, hey, we're in the process of sanctification. we're in the process of sanctification. we're in the process of sanctification. You're not perf- you're not you're not You're not perf- you're not you're not You're not perf- you're not you're not there yet. You're going to make there yet. You're going to make there yet. You're going to make mistakes. And it was really good for a mistakes. And it was really good for a mistakes. And it was really good for a mentor to to tell me like what the sins mentor to to tell me like what the sins mentor to to tell me like what the sins that are being talked about here are that are being talked about here are that are being talked about here are like a high-handed I reject Jesus not like a high-handed I reject Jesus not like a high-handed I reject Jesus not gossiping or in my instance it was going gossiping or in my instance it was going gossiping or in my instance it was going to a PG-13 movie when I didn't think I to a PG-13 movie when I didn't think I to a PG-13 movie when I didn't think I should have.

should have. should have. >> Scandalous. >> Scandalous. >> Scandalous. >> You know, I wow, I was a very >> You know, I wow, I was a very >> You know, I wow, I was a very very spiritually sensitive and prudish very spiritually sensitive and prudish very spiritually sensitive and prudish kind of kid. So, kind of kid. So, kind of kid. So, we we are seen as perfect because of we we are seen as perfect because of we we are seen as perfect because of what Christ has done even though we have what Christ has done even though we have what Christ has done even though we have this process of growth. I mean, how much this process of growth. I mean, how much this process of growth. I mean, how much is that like Paul, right? That's so is that like Paul, right? That's so is that like Paul, right? That's so resonant with Paul with slightly resonant with Paul with slightly resonant with Paul with slightly different language. So, that was different language. So, that was different language. So, that was important early on. You've already heard important early on. You've already heard important early on. You've already heard me mention another one, chapter 7. me mention another one, chapter 7. me mention another one, chapter 7. He lives forever to intercede for us, He lives forever to intercede for us, He lives forever to intercede for us, 7:25 through 28 in that section. That 7:25 through 28 in that section. That 7:25 through 28 in that section. That revolutionizes my prayer life, right? We revolutionizes my prayer life, right? We revolutionizes my prayer life, right? We all have moments in which we're not sure all have moments in which we're not sure all have moments in which we're not sure what to pray or we're maybe exhausted or what to pray or we're maybe exhausted or what to pray or we're maybe exhausted or but but to know but but to know but but to know Jesus himself is praying for us. Jesus himself is praying for us. Jesus himself is praying for us. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> At the right hand of the Father, before >> At the right hand of the Father, before >> At the right hand of the Father, before the very face of God. That is radical. the very face of God. That is radical. the very face of God. That is radical. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Maybe I'll close with this as what as >> Maybe I'll close with this as what as >> Maybe I'll close with this as what as and it shifts all the time, I guess, but and it shifts all the time, I guess, but and it shifts all the time, I guess, but these these are ones I've come back to. these these are ones I've come back to. these these are ones I've come back to. Chapter 4, and this is one that people Chapter 4, and this is one that people Chapter 4, and this is one that people know well. The word of God is living and know well. The word of God is living and know well. The word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged active, sharper than any two-edged active, sharper than any two-edged sword. Able to pierce the division of sword. Able to pierce the division of sword. Able to pierce the division of soul and spirit, body and marrow.

soul and spirit, body and marrow. soul and spirit, body and marrow. So, this is So, this is So, this is often in my growing up it was said like often in my growing up it was said like often in my growing up it was said like the word of God is powerful. And I think the word of God is powerful. And I think the word of God is powerful. And I think that's right that and that's good. But that's right that and that's good. But that's right that and that's good. But it's a very sobering text. It goes on to it's a very sobering text. It goes on to it's a very sobering text. It goes on to say all creation is laid bare before him say all creation is laid bare before him say all creation is laid bare before him with their necks bent back. And it's with their necks bent back. And it's with their necks bent back. And it's really, I think, a sacrificial image of really, I think, a sacrificial image of really, I think, a sacrificial image of like the animal's neck is pulled back, like the animal's neck is pulled back, like the animal's neck is pulled back, the high priest has the knife already to the high priest has the knife already to the high priest has the knife already to slit the neck. slit the neck. slit the neck. And and it says that's you before God. And and it says that's you before God. And and it says that's you before God. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> There is nothing you can hide. In my >> There is nothing you can hide. In my >> There is nothing you can hide. In my tradition, we have a prayer at the tradition, we have a prayer at the tradition, we have a prayer at the opening of our service that says, "All opening of our service that says, "All opening of our service that says, "All desires are known, no secrets are hid." desires are known, no secrets are hid." desires are known, no secrets are hid." And in some moments, that's like, "Oh, And in some moments, that's like, "Oh, And in some moments, that's like, "Oh, right. God, you know everything." But right. God, you know everything." But right. God, you know everything." But more often than not for me, that and and more often than not for me, that and and more often than not for me, that and and I I really should be honest here, not I I really should be honest here, not I I really should be honest here, not kind of cutesy with my words, that's kind of cutesy with my words, that's kind of cutesy with my words, that's really, really comforting. That like I I really, really comforting. That like I I really, really comforting. That like I I don't have to pretend before God. don't have to pretend before God. don't have to pretend before God. There's no pretense. He knows He knows There's no pretense. He knows He knows There's no pretense. He knows He knows it all. it all. it all. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He knows the parts I don't even can't >> He knows the parts I don't even can't >> He knows the parts I don't even can't understand about myself.

understand about myself. understand about myself. And in that exposure, truly that And in that exposure, truly that And in that exposure, truly that nakedness, that being worthy of death, nakedness, that being worthy of death, nakedness, that being worthy of death, then you get then you get then you get we have so great a high priest who's we have so great a high priest who's we have so great a high priest who's passed through the heavens, Jesus, the passed through the heavens, Jesus, the passed through the heavens, Jesus, the son of God, the one who's righteous, who son of God, the one who's righteous, who son of God, the one who's righteous, who has been tempted and always yet are we has been tempted and always yet are we has been tempted and always yet are we yet without sin. Like the picture you yet without sin. Like the picture you yet without sin. Like the picture you get is the sacrificial animal, the high get is the sacrificial animal, the high get is the sacrificial animal, the high priest with the knife raised, but our priest with the knife raised, but our priest with the knife raised, but our high priest doesn't slaughter us, though high priest doesn't slaughter us, though high priest doesn't slaughter us, though we deserve it, but takes the knife we deserve it, but takes the knife we deserve it, but takes the knife himself, himself, himself, so that we might have mercy. so that we might have mercy. so that we might have mercy. >> Yeah, it really seems like at its heart, >> Yeah, it really seems like at its heart, >> Yeah, it really seems like at its heart, this Hebrews is a book of comfort. this Hebrews is a book of comfort. this Hebrews is a book of comfort. And even even when it's not like And even even when it's not like And even even when it's not like bold-faced, doesn't really read like bold-faced, doesn't really read like bold-faced, doesn't really read like comfort all the time, comfort all the time, comfort all the time, um um um at its core, the like like the depths of at its core, the like like the depths of at its core, the like like the depths of what it's saying about who we are and what it's saying about who we are and what it's saying about who we are and who God is, who Jesus is like is is is who God is, who Jesus is like is is is who God is, who Jesus is like is is is comforting. When you accept the truth of comforting. When you accept the truth of comforting. When you accept the truth of what is. what is. what is. So, even as as you were saying just just So, even as as you were saying just just So, even as as you were saying just just now about that that bareness, that now about that that bareness, that now about that that bareness, that nakedness, like on its face, it may read nakedness, like on its face, it may read nakedness, like on its face, it may read as scary or vulnerable or whatnot, but as scary or vulnerable or whatnot, but as scary or vulnerable or whatnot, but at its heart, at its heart, at its heart, when you fully accept what it means, when you fully accept what it means, when you fully accept what it means, then it can be and should be a comfort.

then it can be and should be a comfort. then it can be and should be a comfort. Same thing with the idea of Jesus Same thing with the idea of Jesus Same thing with the idea of Jesus uh being an intercessor at the right uh being an intercessor at the right uh being an intercessor at the right hand of the Father praying for you. I I hand of the Father praying for you. I I hand of the Father praying for you. I I I loved how Kyle Strobel had framed this I loved how Kyle Strobel had framed this I loved how Kyle Strobel had framed this at one point to me. He he said he said at one point to me. He he said he said at one point to me. He he said he said um there's nothing that you can pray um there's nothing that you can pray um there's nothing that you can pray that Jesus has not already prayed for that Jesus has not already prayed for that Jesus has not already prayed for for you. And to be able to enter that for you. And to be able to enter that for you. And to be able to enter that and again have that comfort of like it's and again have that comfort of like it's and again have that comfort of like it's not just it's not just Jesus that's not just it's not just Jesus that's not just it's not just Jesus that's praying for you. It's Jesus the high praying for you. It's Jesus the high praying for you. It's Jesus the high priest is praying for you. And going priest is praying for you. And going priest is praying for you. And going ahead of you in your prayer in prayer, ahead of you in your prayer in prayer, ahead of you in your prayer in prayer, too. And um so too. And um so too. And um so so yes, there is a lot going on in in so yes, there is a lot going on in in so yes, there is a lot going on in in this book. There's a whole chapter about this book. There's a whole chapter about this book. There's a whole chapter about Melchizedek is greater than Abraham. Melchizedek is greater than Abraham. Melchizedek is greater than Abraham. There's all this stuff about sacrifice There's all this stuff about sacrifice There's all this stuff about sacrifice and all this stuff about these examples and all this stuff about these examples and all this stuff about these examples and living all this stuff. and living all this stuff. and living all this stuff. But really when you boil if you put it But really when you boil if you put it But really when you boil if you put it all into into the boiling plate and you all into into the boiling plate and you all into into the boiling plate and you boil it down and what comes out is boil it down and what comes out is boil it down and what comes out is comfort is is saying like this is comfort is is saying like this is comfort is is saying like this is how much God loves you that he wants how much God loves you that he wants how much God loves you that he wants this type of relationship with you and this type of relationship with you and this type of relationship with you and has made the way and it looks like this.

has made the way and it looks like this. has made the way and it looks like this. And um I think that's so And um I think that's so And um I think that's so helpful. As you said, it really stands helpful. As you said, it really stands helpful. As you said, it really stands out in the New Testament canon cuz it's out in the New Testament canon cuz it's out in the New Testament canon cuz it's not that Paul's letters are not not that Paul's letters are not not that Paul's letters are not comforting, but it's always pointed. comforting, but it's always pointed. comforting, but it's always pointed. Paul's letters are very pointed in a way Paul's letters are very pointed in a way Paul's letters are very pointed in a way cuz he's responding to situations at cuz he's responding to situations at cuz he's responding to situations at these churches that he is writing to. these churches that he is writing to. these churches that he is writing to. Hebrews in this case is afforded a Hebrews in this case is afforded a Hebrews in this case is afforded a little bit something different. And so little bit something different. And so little bit something different. And so it really it it sits with us in a way it really it it sits with us in a way it really it it sits with us in a way that I think is is much needed. Um and that I think is is much needed. Um and that I think is is much needed. Um and so I I just I I love that we can boil it so I I just I I love that we can boil it so I I just I I love that we can boil it down to this central push of down to this central push of down to this central push of hey, like God loves you so much that it hey, like God loves you so much that it hey, like God loves you so much that it looks like this. And and you and you can looks like this. And and you and you can looks like this. And and you and you can see that story through all of scripture, see that story through all of scripture, see that story through all of scripture, through all of history. And that's the through all of history. And that's the through all of history. And that's the case that the author is making. It's case that the author is making. It's case that the author is making. It's through all of history, it's pointing through all of history, it's pointing through all of history, it's pointing towards to this. Um so it really is towards to this. Um so it really is towards to this. Um so it really is beautiful. And so and I understand why beautiful. And so and I understand why beautiful. And so and I understand why you wanted to emphasize this book so you wanted to emphasize this book so you wanted to emphasize this book so much and spend so much time in Hebrews. much and spend so much time in Hebrews. much and spend so much time in Hebrews. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Um >> Um >> Um Okay. Are there any sticky parts in this Okay. Are there any sticky parts in this Okay. Are there any sticky parts in this book? And I define sticky as parts that book? And I define sticky as parts that book? And I define sticky as parts that are particularly maybe confusing, are particularly maybe confusing, are particularly maybe confusing, troublesome, um parts that a new person troublesome, um parts that a new person troublesome, um parts that a new person reading you'd be like, "Just so you reading you'd be like, "Just so you reading you'd be like, "Just so you know, it says this. We may need to know, it says this. We may need to know, it says this. We may need to unpack this a little bit."

unpack this a little bit." unpack this a little bit." >> Right. Right. Yes, I think we've already >> Right. Right. Yes, I think we've already >> Right. Right. Yes, I think we've already kind of um mentioned a few of them, but kind of um mentioned a few of them, but kind of um mentioned a few of them, but one would be the temptation one would be the temptation one would be the temptation to see this letter as very dismissive of to see this letter as very dismissive of to see this letter as very dismissive of what God did with the people of Israel. what God did with the people of Israel. what God did with the people of Israel. Because you get a lot of comparative Because you get a lot of comparative Because you get a lot of comparative language, like these things and then language, like these things and then language, like these things and then Jesus is better, better than Moses, Jesus is better, better than Moses, Jesus is better, better than Moses, better than the prophets, better than better than the prophets, better than better than the prophets, better than the priests, better than Melchizedek. the priests, better than Melchizedek. the priests, better than Melchizedek. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> But it's really important to recognize >> But it's really important to recognize >> But it's really important to recognize that this is a comparison not between that this is a comparison not between that this is a comparison not between something bad and something good, but something bad and something good, but something bad and something good, but between something really good and then between something really good and then between something really good and then the fulfillment of that really good the fulfillment of that really good the fulfillment of that really good thing. The the the the completion or the thing. The the the the completion or the thing. The the the the completion or the telos. And I have had great conversation telos. And I have had great conversation telos. And I have had great conversation with some Jewish scholars, even Jewish with some Jewish scholars, even Jewish with some Jewish scholars, even Jewish scholars of the New Testament, and scholars of the New Testament, and scholars of the New Testament, and they're like, "You know, you still are they're like, "You know, you still are they're like, "You know, you still are saying Jesus is the best." I'm like, saying Jesus is the best." I'm like, saying Jesus is the best." I'm like, "Yep. Yep, we totally that's what "Yep. Yep, we totally that's what "Yep. Yep, we totally that's what Hebrews is saying." Hebrews is saying." Hebrews is saying." >> Unashamedly, yep. >> Unashamedly, yep. >> Unashamedly, yep. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Unashamedly. And and the scholar I have >> Unashamedly. And and the scholar I have >> Unashamedly. And and the scholar I have in mind is like, "But let's just all be in mind is like, "But let's just all be in mind is like, "But let's just all be honest about that." I'm like, "Awesome. honest about that." I'm like, "Awesome. honest about that." I'm like, "Awesome. Let's do that." But that doesn't mean Let's do that." But that doesn't mean Let's do that." But that doesn't mean and that then it is not the case that it and that then it is not the case that it and that then it is not the case that it is dismissive. We only, as I stated is dismissive. We only, as I stated is dismissive. We only, as I stated earlier, we only really understand Jesus earlier, we only really understand Jesus earlier, we only really understand Jesus because we have this picture. Maybe because we have this picture. Maybe because we have this picture. Maybe another to go to is the whole new another to go to is the whole new another to go to is the whole new covenant. Right? So, this language of covenant. Right? So, this language of covenant. Right? So, this language of new covenant that's very prominent in new covenant that's very prominent in new covenant that's very prominent in chapter 8, the author's not making this chapter 8, the author's not making this chapter 8, the author's not making this up. The author's getting it from up. The author's getting it from up. The author's getting it from Jeremiah, from the prophet that that Jeremiah, from the prophet that that Jeremiah, from the prophet that that even the prophets recognized um the even the prophets recognized um the even the prophets recognized um the Sinaitic law, the law given to Moses on Sinaitic law, the law given to Moses on Sinaitic law, the law given to Moses on Mount Sinai was awesome, but it wasn't Mount Sinai was awesome, but it wasn't Mount Sinai was awesome, but it wasn't meant to be forever. It was pointing to

meant to be forever. It was pointing to meant to be forever. It was pointing to something else. And then the new something else. And then the new something else. And then the new covenant where the law is within us in covenant where the law is within us in covenant where the law is within us in our hearts, that comes through Christ. our hearts, that comes through Christ. our hearts, that comes through Christ. So, that's one thing to pay attention So, that's one thing to pay attention So, that's one thing to pay attention to. And then, really that one of the to. And then, really that one of the to. And then, really that one of the weightiest issues about Hebrews are weightiest issues about Hebrews are weightiest issues about Hebrews are these warning passages. And this too, I these warning passages. And this too, I these warning passages. And this too, I take a lot of comfort in knowing this take a lot of comfort in knowing this take a lot of comfort in knowing this isn't a modern issue. Early Christians isn't a modern issue. Early Christians isn't a modern issue. Early Christians also really struggled with these also really struggled with these also really struggled with these passages. Cuz if you read them passages. Cuz if you read them passages. Cuz if you read them thinly or just kind of pass over them, thinly or just kind of pass over them, thinly or just kind of pass over them, it really does sound like you do it really does sound like you do it really does sound like you do something and you've lost salvation something and you've lost salvation something and you've lost salvation forever. forever. forever. Which then, how do you put that into Which then, how do you put that into Which then, how do you put that into conversation with things like Peter's conversation with things like Peter's conversation with things like Peter's denial and restoration or the prodigal denial and restoration or the prodigal denial and restoration or the prodigal son or or so much of God's faithfulness son or or so much of God's faithfulness son or or so much of God's faithfulness with Israel. Over and over again, God with Israel. Over and over again, God with Israel. Over and over again, God will not abrogate the covenant. will not abrogate the covenant. will not abrogate the covenant. So, those warning passages really do So, those warning passages really do So, those warning passages really do take some thought, but I think you've take some thought, but I think you've take some thought, but I think you've said it well. said it well. said it well. They they And then maybe I want to They they And then maybe I want to They they And then maybe I want to emphasize, they are warning passages. emphasize, they are warning passages. emphasize, they are warning passages. This this author is writing to a This this author is writing to a This this author is writing to a community who maybe are feeling very community who maybe are feeling very community who maybe are feeling very weary. They might be tempted to give up, weary. They might be tempted to give up, weary. They might be tempted to give up, but they haven't yet. And so, he's but they haven't yet. And so, he's but they haven't yet. And so, he's saying, "I just want to remind you, if saying, "I just want to remind you, if saying, "I just want to remind you, if you turn away from what God has done in you turn away from what God has done in you turn away from what God has done in Christ, Christ, Christ, that puts you outside of God's grace.

that puts you outside of God's grace. that puts you outside of God's grace. God is does is not going to offer God is does is not going to offer God is does is not going to offer another instance of grace. That's it." another instance of grace. That's it." another instance of grace. That's it." And the reason why is that God's not And the reason why is that God's not And the reason why is that God's not just like mean, "I've done something just like mean, "I've done something just like mean, "I've done something once, I'm never going to do thing once, I'm never going to do thing once, I'm never going to do thing again." But because of the power of what again." But because of the power of what again." But because of the power of what Christ done, Christ has taken on human Christ done, Christ has taken on human Christ done, Christ has taken on human flesh, defeated death itself and the flesh, defeated death itself and the flesh, defeated death itself and the power of sin, raised indestructible power of sin, raised indestructible power of sin, raised indestructible life, he cannot go through that process life, he cannot go through that process life, he cannot go through that process again. His life is indestructible. So, again. His life is indestructible. So, again. His life is indestructible. So, if someone says, "Hey, I would like that if someone says, "Hey, I would like that if someone says, "Hey, I would like that problem of death and sin solved, but problem of death and sin solved, but problem of death and sin solved, but this Jesus, he's kind of, you know, this Jesus, he's kind of, you know, this Jesus, he's kind of, you know, shameful. He's costing me a lot of shameful. He's costing me a lot of shameful. He's costing me a lot of issues. Can you provide another way to issues. Can you provide another way to issues. Can you provide another way to deal with death and sin?" God's like deal with death and sin?" God's like deal with death and sin?" God's like like it's done. I can't redo. And that's like it's done. I can't redo. And that's like it's done. I can't redo. And that's the emphasis of Hebrews, once for all. the emphasis of Hebrews, once for all. the emphasis of Hebrews, once for all. Once for all for what Christ has done. Once for all for what Christ has done. Once for all for what Christ has done. So, those warning passages are So, those warning passages are So, those warning passages are challenging, but if that framework is challenging, but if that framework is challenging, but if that framework is kept in mind that this author really is kept in mind that this author really is kept in mind that this author really is saying to this community, "Friends, saying to this community, "Friends, saying to this community, "Friends, don't turn away. don't turn away. don't turn away. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Don't turn away from the one offer. And >> Don't turn away from the one offer. And >> Don't turn away from the one offer. And and and God is is there, ready for you. and and God is is there, ready for you. and and God is is there, ready for you. And here's all these ways I'm And here's all these ways I'm And here's all these ways I'm encouraging you to endure. Don't turn encouraging you to endure. Don't turn encouraging you to endure. Don't turn away." And then I would say when the away." And then I would say when the away." And then I would say when the early church, when they had people who early church, when they had people who early church, when they had people who denied the faith, who gave up their denied the faith, who gave up their denied the faith, who gave up their scriptures under time of persecution, scriptures under time of persecution, scriptures under time of persecution, and then later they wanted to repent, and then later they wanted to repent, and then later they wanted to repent, they said, "Yeah, you can repent. You they said, "Yeah, you can repent. You they said, "Yeah, you can repent. You can come back." And maybe we would say, can come back." And maybe we would say, can come back." And maybe we would say, "Well, how did they say that in light of "Well, how did they say that in light of "Well, how did they say that in light of Hebrews?"

Hebrews?" Hebrews?" Hebrews is only saying, "You can't find Hebrews is only saying, "You can't find Hebrews is only saying, "You can't find salvation outside of Jesus." salvation outside of Jesus." salvation outside of Jesus." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But if you come back to him, well, then >> But if you come back to him, well, then >> But if you come back to him, well, then it's up to God. it's up to God. it's up to God. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh God gets to decide. And and God has >> Uh God gets to decide. And and God has >> Uh God gets to decide. And and God has shown uh the divine character to be one shown uh the divine character to be one shown uh the divine character to be one of mercy, of comfort, as you emphasized of mercy, of comfort, as you emphasized of mercy, of comfort, as you emphasized so well. so well. so well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. As we start to wrap up, um As we start to wrap up, um As we start to wrap up, um what's something that you want to leave what's something that you want to leave what's something that you want to leave people thinking about with Hebrews? people thinking about with Hebrews? people thinking about with Hebrews? >> Yes. What I continue to think about with this What I continue to think about with this letter letter letter is how to is how to is how to apply this letter in a time in which apply this letter in a time in which apply this letter in a time in which which we are not facing which we are not facing which we are not facing um total persecution because of our um total persecution because of our um total persecution because of our faith. And I know that's tricky. I don't faith. And I know that's tricky. I don't faith. And I know that's tricky. I don't know all listeners. I don't know what know all listeners. I don't know what know all listeners. I don't know what your social settings are. But I'll kind your social settings are. But I'll kind your social settings are. But I'll kind of say from my own location here in of say from my own location here in of say from my own location here in Wheaton, Illinois, Wheaton, Illinois, Wheaton, Illinois, it doesn't cost me my livelihood or my it doesn't cost me my livelihood or my it doesn't cost me my livelihood or my life to be a Christian. In fact, there life to be a Christian. In fact, there life to be a Christian. In fact, there are actually a lot of social benefits to are actually a lot of social benefits to are actually a lot of social benefits to me being a Christian.

me being a Christian. me being a Christian. So, I often muse over how do I So, I often muse over how do I So, I often muse over how do I um um um receive the power of this letter when receive the power of this letter when receive the power of this letter when I'm in a really different situation. I'm in a really different situation. I'm in a really different situation. Because I don't want to make it too easy Because I don't want to make it too easy Because I don't want to make it too easy or domesticated. or domesticated. or domesticated. I and I want to pray for and suffer with I and I want to pray for and suffer with I and I want to pray for and suffer with and grieve for those brothers and and grieve for those brothers and and grieve for those brothers and sisters across the world who are facing sisters across the world who are facing sisters across the world who are facing that kind of persecution, that kind of persecution, that kind of persecution, but but but I I want to make sure that I'm hearing I I want to make sure that I'm hearing I I want to make sure that I'm hearing it well, and it well, and it well, and I do believe that God gave us the I do believe that God gave us the I do believe that God gave us the scripture not just for these people in scripture not just for these people in scripture not just for these people in the first century, but the Holy Spirit the first century, but the Holy Spirit the first century, but the Holy Spirit intended for all of us to have it, but I intended for all of us to have it, but I intended for all of us to have it, but I want to make sure that I receive it want to make sure that I receive it want to make sure that I receive it rightly, that I really hear its radical rightly, that I really hear its radical rightly, that I really hear its radical truth that that that confessing Christ truth that that that confessing Christ truth that that that confessing Christ is some shame. And if that is not is some shame. And if that is not is some shame. And if that is not immediately apparent in my life, it's immediately apparent in my life, it's immediately apparent in my life, it's something I want to pay attention to. something I want to pay attention to. something I want to pay attention to. Because I think if we confessed Christ, Because I think if we confessed Christ, Because I think if we confessed Christ, if we are called to take up our cross, if we are called to take up our cross, if we are called to take up our cross, it's going to cost us something, and I it's going to cost us something, and I it's going to cost us something, and I don't mean to be go out and you know, don't mean to be go out and you know, don't mean to be go out and you know, search for suffering and we you know, search for suffering and we you know, search for suffering and we you know, we make ourselves weird and annoying so we make ourselves weird and annoying so we make ourselves weird and annoying so that people will persecute us. Not at that people will persecute us. Not at that people will persecute us. Not at all, but I I want to continue to be all, but I I want to continue to be all, but I I want to continue to be mindful mindful mindful that that that the honor and the shame spoken of in the honor and the shame spoken of in the honor and the shame spoken of in this letter, that my honor is primarily this letter, that my honor is primarily this letter, that my honor is primarily coming from what God says about me. And coming from what God says about me. And coming from what God says about me. And that that might then bring some shame that that might then bring some shame that that might then bring some shame among other communities, even among other communities, even among other communities, even communities that identify as Christian, communities that identify as Christian, communities that identify as Christian, because we too can be kind of captured

because we too can be kind of captured because we too can be kind of captured by the standards of by the standards of by the standards of not God's kingdom. And I want to pay not God's kingdom. And I want to pay not God's kingdom. And I want to pay attention to that. Am I hearing the attention to that. Am I hearing the attention to that. Am I hearing the radical call of this letter well in my radical call of this letter well in my radical call of this letter well in my own situation? own situation? own situation? >> Yeah, I really do >> Yeah, I really do >> Yeah, I really do love that. We hadn't talked much about love that. We hadn't talked much about love that. We hadn't talked much about that, so I'm I'm happy to end with that that, so I'm I'm happy to end with that that, so I'm I'm happy to end with that is the idea is the idea is the idea of of the radical nature of what is of of the radical nature of what is of of the radical nature of what is being asked, that that being set apart being asked, that that being set apart being asked, that that being set apart is a radical thing. And it now that word is a radical thing. And it now that word is a radical thing. And it now that word radical may look different in any sort radical may look different in any sort radical may look different in any sort of context, but it doesn't change the of context, but it doesn't change the of context, but it doesn't change the fact that it is set apart, that it is fact that it is set apart, that it is fact that it is set apart, that it is different, that it is for a different different, that it is for a different different, that it is for a different purpose than of the world. And purpose than of the world. And purpose than of the world. And that looks different in different that looks different in different that looks different in different contexts, in different cultures, for contexts, in different cultures, for contexts, in different cultures, for different people, for sure. But, don't different people, for sure. But, don't different people, for sure. But, don't lose sight lose sight lose sight of of of the power of what not just what Christ the power of what not just what Christ the power of what not just what Christ has done, but what he's calling us into. has done, but what he's calling us into. has done, but what he's calling us into. Cuz that is something different. And Cuz that is something different. And Cuz that is something different. And that's a part of what we see in Hebrews that's a part of what we see in Hebrews that's a part of what we see in Hebrews does such a well a beautiful job of it does such a well a beautiful job of it does such a well a beautiful job of it is tracing what that looked like all the is tracing what that looked like all the is tracing what that looked like all the way through. All those instances of way through. All those instances of way through. All those instances of faithfulness, especially through your faithfulness, especially through your faithfulness, especially through your favorite chapter going through it's the favorite chapter going through it's the favorite chapter going through it's the Hall of Fame there is instances of Hall of Fame there is instances of Hall of Fame there is instances of people who were fighting back against people who were fighting back against people who were fighting back against something, who were who were embracing a something, who were who were embracing a something, who were who were embracing a different way, a way of God, or a way of different way, a way of God, or a way of different way, a way of God, or a way of Christ, rather than what, you know, the Christ, rather than what, you know, the Christ, rather than what, you know, the way of empire, or the way of Pharaoh, or way of empire, or the way of Pharaoh, or way of empire, or the way of Pharaoh, or the way of whatever was at the time.

the way of whatever was at the time. the way of whatever was at the time. And so, there is a radical nature, and And so, there is a radical nature, and And so, there is a radical nature, and we need to be we need to be we need to be not just aware of that, not just aware of that, not just aware of that, but almost but almost but almost um um um taking time to genuinely appreciate what taking time to genuinely appreciate what taking time to genuinely appreciate what that means, because that will shape your that means, because that will shape your that means, because that will shape your faith a little bit differently. faith a little bit differently. faith a little bit differently. It takes it away from just being like, It takes it away from just being like, It takes it away from just being like, "Oh, I you know, I get to be a "Oh, I you know, I get to be a "Oh, I you know, I get to be a Christian. I believe this, and yada yada Christian. I believe this, and yada yada Christian. I believe this, and yada yada yada." Instead, it it embraces a little yada." Instead, it it embraces a little yada." Instead, it it embraces a little bit that cost of discipleshipness that bit that cost of discipleshipness that bit that cost of discipleshipness that Bonhoeffer talks about of now there is Bonhoeffer talks about of now there is Bonhoeffer talks about of now there is something more. And something more. And something more. And you know, and you can discern with the you know, and you can discern with the you know, and you can discern with the Lord through prayer what that looks like Lord through prayer what that looks like Lord through prayer what that looks like in your life, in your context. in your life, in your context. in your life, in your context. >> And maybe one way if I you know, as we >> And maybe one way if I you know, as we >> And maybe one way if I you know, as we as you say that, that's so helpful. One as you say that, that's so helpful. One as you say that, that's so helpful. One way that Hebrews helps us to crystallize way that Hebrews helps us to crystallize way that Hebrews helps us to crystallize that is that is this theme of wandering. that is that is this theme of wandering. that is that is this theme of wandering. Ernst Käsemann, who wrote his commentary Ernst Käsemann, who wrote his commentary Ernst Käsemann, who wrote his commentary on Hebrews like reflecting on and being on Hebrews like reflecting on and being on Hebrews like reflecting on and being in prison in the midst of the war, like in prison in the midst of the war, like in prison in the midst of the war, like there are people on the way. And maybe there are people on the way. And maybe there are people on the way. And maybe that's why I kind of balked a little bit that's why I kind of balked a little bit that's why I kind of balked a little bit at that earlier question. It's not point at that earlier question. It's not point at that earlier question. It's not point A and point B, cuz we're not done yet.

A and point B, cuz we're not done yet. A and point B, cuz we're not done yet. We're on a race. We're on a journey. We're on a race. We're on a journey. We're on a race. We're on a journey. We're in the the We're in the the We're in the the We haven't arrived. We're looking for a We haven't arrived. We're looking for a We haven't arrived. We're looking for a city that is that God has built. And city that is that God has built. And city that is that God has built. And that's not to say that Hebrews is that's not to say that Hebrews is that's not to say that Hebrews is escapist in the sense like, "Oh, we're escapist in the sense like, "Oh, we're escapist in the sense like, "Oh, we're all going to heaven. Like, who cares all going to heaven. Like, who cares all going to heaven. Like, who cares what happens in this place?" No, it's what happens in this place?" No, it's what happens in this place?" No, it's actually very affirming that God's actually very affirming that God's actually very affirming that God's kingdom will be new heavens and new kingdom will be new heavens and new kingdom will be new heavens and new earth in ways that are aligned with earth in ways that are aligned with earth in ways that are aligned with Revelation. But, it does say to us, Revelation. But, it does say to us, Revelation. But, it does say to us, "Don't get too comfortable here cuz it's "Don't get too comfortable here cuz it's "Don't get too comfortable here cuz it's really as the world as we experience it really as the world as we experience it really as the world as we experience it now, it's not home. It's not home." And now, it's not home. It's not home." And now, it's not home. It's not home." And I think that living like I'm not quite I think that living like I'm not quite I think that living like I'm not quite at home yet, and that is a way in which at home yet, and that is a way in which at home yet, and that is a way in which maybe we'll experience some resistance maybe we'll experience some resistance maybe we'll experience some resistance from communities around us. We care very from communities around us. We care very from communities around us. We care very much about our neighbors and our much about our neighbors and our much about our neighbors and our peoples. We want the blessings of the peoples. We want the blessings of the peoples. We want the blessings of the cities that God has called us to live cities that God has called us to live cities that God has called us to live in, but we're not resident here. in, but we're not resident here. in, but we're not resident here. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> As it is, we are looking for something >> As it is, we are looking for something >> As it is, we are looking for something to come. to come. to come. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I think that's a call to all of us >> And I think that's a call to all of us >> And I think that's a call to all of us to ask, "Does my life display that to ask, "Does my life display that to ask, "Does my life display that journey motif?" journey motif?" journey motif?" >> Yeah. Mhm. >> Yeah. Mhm. >> Yeah. Mhm. What a way to end. Thank you so much for What a way to end. Thank you so much for What a way to end. Thank you so much for being our guide today through the book being our guide today through the book being our guide today through the book of Hebrews, Amy. I really appreciate it.

of Hebrews, Amy. I really appreciate it. of Hebrews, Amy. I really appreciate it. Would you mind closing us in prayer? Would you mind closing us in prayer? Would you mind closing us in prayer? >> I'd be delighted to. Thank you, Jason. >> I'd be delighted to. Thank you, Jason. >> I'd be delighted to. Thank you, Jason. Thanks for great questions. This was Thanks for great questions. This was Thanks for great questions. This was fun. fun. fun. >> This is so much fun. >> This is so much fun. >> This is so much fun. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Well, let's pray. God, we are so grateful that this book God, we are so grateful that this book gives us the clear assurance that we gives us the clear assurance that we gives us the clear assurance that we [music] can approach your throne. [music] can approach your throne. [music] can approach your throne. You are sovereign over all creation, You are sovereign over all creation, You are sovereign over all creation, mighty and holy, eternal. [music] mighty and holy, eternal. [music] mighty and holy, eternal. [music] We We are in reverent fear before you, We We are in reverent fear before you, We We are in reverent fear before you, and yet [music] because the veil has and yet [music] because the veil has and yet [music] because the veil has been opened, a way has been opened been opened, a way has been opened been opened, a way has been opened through the body of Jesus, we can come. through the body of Jesus, we can come. through the body of Jesus, we can come. And not just come with trepidation, but And not just come with trepidation, but And not just come with trepidation, but boldly [music] boldly [music] boldly [music] to ask for everything we need at the to ask for everything we need at the to ask for everything we need at the right time. right time. right time. Thank you that Jesus, you right now are Thank you that Jesus, you right now are Thank you that Jesus, you right now are praying for us, praying for those who praying for us, praying for those who praying for us, praying for those who are listening. are listening. are listening. Thank you that you [music] invite us to Thank you that you [music] invite us to Thank you that you [music] invite us to keep our eyes upon you. keep our eyes upon you. keep our eyes upon you. I do ask that those who are listening, I do ask that those who are listening, I do ask that those who are listening, if they've ever experienced a bit of uh if they've ever experienced a bit of uh if they've ever experienced a bit of uh trepidation about Hebrews, [music] that trepidation about Hebrews, [music] that trepidation about Hebrews, [music] that it's complicated or talks a lot about it's complicated or talks a lot about it's complicated or talks a lot about blood, or not quite sure what to do with blood, or not quite sure what to do with blood, or not quite sure what to do with it, but they might experience an it, but they might experience an it, but they might experience an inquisitiveness, inquisitiveness, inquisitiveness, a desire to come and see, [music] a desire to come and see, [music] a desire to come and see, [music] an invitation to take their time and not an invitation to take their time and not an invitation to take their time and not rush, but sit with the amazing truths rush, but sit with the amazing truths rush, but sit with the amazing truths and beauty [music] that you've given and beauty [music] that you've given and beauty [music] that you've given through your servant in this letter, a through your servant in this letter, a through your servant in this letter, a servant that we don't even know, [music] servant that we don't even know, [music] servant that we don't even know, [music] but that someday we'll meet in your but that someday we'll meet in your but that someday we'll meet in your heavenly kingdom.

heavenly kingdom. heavenly kingdom. Ask that we [music] might have the Ask that we [music] might have the Ask that we [music] might have the endurance we need, that when you make a endurance we need, that when you make a endurance we need, that when you make a promise, you keep it. promise, you keep it. promise, you keep it. Thank you for Christ's priesthood, that Thank you for Christ's priesthood, that Thank you for Christ's priesthood, that he gave himself [music] he gave himself [music] he gave himself [music] so that we can come to you. so that we can come to you. so that we can come to you. And thank you for the inheritance to And thank you for the inheritance to And thank you for the inheritance to which we look forward, that we will which we look forward, that we will which we look forward, that we will celebrate you with you and be with you celebrate you with you and be with you celebrate you with you and be with you forever. forever. forever. We thank you for the work of Jason and We thank you for the work of Jason and We thank you for the work of Jason and this church, the great faithfulness, this church, the great faithfulness, this church, the great faithfulness, [music] [music] [music] not only of these mentioned in chapter not only of these mentioned in chapter not only of these mentioned in chapter 11, but generations who have kept their 11, but generations who have kept their 11, but generations who have kept their vision on you. vision on you. vision on you. Through the power of your spirit, might Through the power of your spirit, might Through the power of your spirit, might you help us, and might this conversation you help us, and might this conversation you help us, and might this conversation be an encouragement [music] and a be an encouragement [music] and a be an encouragement [music] and a challenge for us to keep running well, challenge for us to keep running well, challenge for us to keep running well, so that we, when we finish, [music] so that we, when we finish, [music] so that we, when we finish, [music] might be also proclaimed and testified might be also proclaimed and testified might be also proclaimed and testified by you as those who are faithful. by you as those who are faithful. by you as those who are faithful. For that end, we will give you all the For that end, we will give you all the For that end, we will give you all the glory and do so through the name of glory and do so through the name of glory and do so through the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Amen.