This SHOCKING Truth About IVF Leaves Pastors Speechless (ft. Katy Faust) | Live Free w Josh Howerton

No, you don't have a right to marriage No, you don't have a right to marriage and you don't have a right to parenthood and you don't have a right to parenthood and you don't have a right to parenthood and you don't have a right to choose. and you don't have a right to choose. and you don't have a right to choose. Children have a right to life and they Children have a right to life and they Children have a right to life and they have a right to their mother and father. have a right to their mother and father. have a right to their mother and father. >> When you use something not according to >> When you use something not according to >> When you use something not according to it [music] design, things go wrong. it [music] design, things go wrong. it [music] design, things go wrong. >> What you believe has real life >> What you believe has real life >> What you believe has real life consequences, not just for yourself. consequences, not just for yourself. consequences, not just for yourself. It's not all about you. It's actually It's not all about you. It's actually It's not all about you. It's actually about the people around you. It's about about the people around you. It's about about the people around you. It's about your legacy, about your children. your legacy, about your children. your legacy, about your children. Well, hey, Lifree Nation. Before we jump Well, hey, Lifree Nation. Before we jump Well, hey, Lifree Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is into the episode, this podcast is into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lakepoint Church recorded right here at Lakepoint Church recorded right here at Lakepoint Church in Dallas, Texas. But the Lifree Nation in Dallas, Texas. But the Lifree Nation in Dallas, Texas. But the Lifree Nation is spread all over the country and all is spread all over the country and all is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been around the world. So if you've been around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I watching and thinking, man, I wish I watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this, we could be part of something like this, we could be part of something like this, we want to invite you to take a simple next want to invite you to take a simple next want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for church step, and that is join us for church step, and that is join us for church online. Every weekend, we stream our online. Every weekend, we stream our online. Every weekend, we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and services live on YouTube, Facebook, and services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our [music] church online platform. And our [music] church online platform. And our [music] church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. it's more than just watching a service. it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer There are live hosts in the chat, prayer There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and teams ready to stand with you, and teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world worshiping people all around the world worshiping people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether together in real time. And so whether together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back you're exploring the faith, coming back you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to church, or just looking for a place to church, or just looking for a place to start, church online is a great way to start, church online is a great way to start, church online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is to jump in and experience what God is to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lakepoint. We would love doing here at Lakepoint. We would love doing here at Lakepoint. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend. And to see you in the chat this weekend. And to see you in the chat this weekend. And now enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, now enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, now enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the welcome back to another episode of the welcome back to another episode of the Live Free Podcast. My name is Carlos Azo Live Free Podcast. My name is Carlos Azo Live Free Podcast. My name is Carlos Azo and I am here today with Pastor Paul and I am here today with Pastor Paul and I am here today with Pastor Paul Cunningham.

Cunningham. Cunningham. >> Come on, man. >> Come on, man. >> Come on, man. >> What's going on, bro? >> What's going on, bro? >> What's going on, bro? >> It is good to be back. >> It is good to be back. >> It is good to be back. >> Yeah. Where's Pastor Josh, >> Yeah. Where's Pastor Josh, >> Yeah. Where's Pastor Josh, >> man? [laughter] You know, who knows >> man? [laughter] You know, who knows >> man? [laughter] You know, who knows where he's at this week. He's been a where he's at this week. He's been a where he's at this week. He's been a world traveler. Now, I'm just missing. world traveler. Now, I'm just missing. world traveler. Now, I'm just missing. He is busy prepping for next year's He is busy prepping for next year's He is busy prepping for next year's sermon. So, he usually takes the summer sermon. So, he usually takes the summer sermon. So, he usually takes the summer to do some praying and some prepping for to do some praying and some prepping for to do some praying and some prepping for next year. So, he's right now praying next year. So, he's right now praying next year. So, he's right now praying over 2027 and what God's leading him to over 2027 and what God's leading him to over 2027 and what God's leading him to preach on. Man, preach on. Man, preach on. Man, >> we're going to do a little prank uh on >> we're going to do a little prank uh on >> we're going to do a little prank uh on Pastor Josh and uh we decided we're Pastor Josh and uh we decided we're Pastor Josh and uh we decided we're going to save it. going to save it. going to save it. >> Yes, we are. We are going to save that >> Yes, we are. We are going to save that >> Yes, we are. We are going to save that prank. I you know, I'm just saying I'm prank. I you know, I'm just saying I'm prank. I you know, I'm just saying I'm gone a week. I'm gone a week and I go to gone a week. I'm gone a week and I go to gone a week. I'm gone a week and I go to Israel. Um no, I did not. Um, everybody Israel. Um no, I did not. Um, everybody Israel. Um no, I did not. Um, everybody was commenting on that on social media, was commenting on that on social media, was commenting on that on social media, but but but >> Well, you should have let it linger a >> Well, you should have let it linger a >> Well, you should have let it linger a little bit and then you would have been little bit and then you would have been little bit and then you would have been like, "Actually, just kidding. That's like, "Actually, just kidding. That's like, "Actually, just kidding. That's >> I know. Well, but you guys, you >> I know. Well, but you guys, you >> I know. Well, but you guys, you advertised that last week." So, it's advertised that last week." So, it's advertised that last week." So, it's really no surprise. really no surprise. really no surprise. >> Whenever you get a chance to go to >> Whenever you get a chance to go to >> Whenever you get a chance to go to Israel, which I hope happens soon and I Israel, which I hope happens soon and I Israel, which I hope happens soon and I hope I get to be a part of that hope I get to be a part of that hope I get to be a part of that experience cuz I I want to share in the experience cuz I I want to share in the experience cuz I I want to share in the joy. That's going to be We're going to joy. That's going to be We're going to joy. That's going to be We're going to celebrate. celebrate. celebrate. >> We're going to celebrate. It's going to >> We're going to celebrate. It's going to >> We're going to celebrate. It's going to be a party. We'll maybe live like live be a party. We'll maybe live like live be a party. We'll maybe live like live broadcast from Israel that I'm there for broadcast from Israel that I'm there for broadcast from Israel that I'm there for proof and stuff like that. I'm I'm going proof and stuff like that. I'm I'm going proof and stuff like that. I'm I'm going to need a I'm going to need a Israel to need a I'm going to need a Israel to need a I'm going to need a Israel tattoo on you tattoo on you tattoo on you >> for that trip.

>> for that trip. >> for that trip. >> I think it can happen. >> I think it can happen. >> I think it can happen. >> Not on me, but definitely on you. >> Not on me, but definitely on you. >> Not on me, but definitely on you. >> Listen, uh I may talk you into it while >> Listen, uh I may talk you into it while >> Listen, uh I may talk you into it while we're there. Anyway, we're there. Anyway, we're there. Anyway, >> you can try it. >> you can try it. >> you can try it. >> I'm gone for a week and while I'm gone, >> I'm gone for a week and while I'm gone, >> I'm gone for a week and while I'm gone, apparently a new t-shirt is made in my apparently a new t-shirt is made in my apparently a new t-shirt is made in my honor. honor. honor. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And you know about joking about me going >> And you know about joking about me going >> And you know about joking about me going to Israel and how I have not been yet. to Israel and how I have not been yet. to Israel and how I have not been yet. >> It's a serious t-shirt. >> It's a serious t-shirt. >> It's a serious t-shirt. >> But but seriously though, when when Amy >> But but seriously though, when when Amy >> But but seriously though, when when Amy and I were posting and I were posting and I were posting >> available where all t-shirts are sold on >> available where all t-shirts are sold on >> available where all t-shirts are sold on our merch shop, that's a joke. It's not our merch shop, that's a joke. It's not our merch shop, that's a joke. It's not there. [laughter] there. [laughter] there. [laughter] >> This is not a hand make a lot of those. >> This is not a hand make a lot of those. >> This is not a hand make a lot of those. Let us know in the comments section if Let us know in the comments section if Let us know in the comments section if you want that shirt as a part of our you want that shirt as a part of our you want that shirt as a part of our merch. Someday, actually, we should merch. Someday, actually, we should merch. Someday, actually, we should remix it. Someday Paul will go to remix it. Someday Paul will go to remix it. Someday Paul will go to Israel. Israel. Israel. >> That's right. That's right. But anyways, >> That's right. That's right. But anyways, >> That's right. That's right. But anyways, before I even saw that video, by the before I even saw that video, by the before I even saw that video, by the way, when the when the podcast posted, way, when the when the podcast posted, way, when the when the podcast posted, like when we were posting pictures, we like when we were posting pictures, we like when we were posting pictures, we were in Quebec, Canada, people were were in Quebec, Canada, people were were in Quebec, Canada, people were literally just like on social media literally just like on social media literally just like on social media message, no Israel. And I was like, bro, message, no Israel. And I was like, bro, message, no Israel. And I was like, bro, like come on. So, they beat you to it on like come on. So, they beat you to it on like come on. So, they beat you to it on that. But anyways, I'm gone for a week that. But anyways, I'm gone for a week that. But anyways, I'm gone for a week and all that happens. And then, by the and all that happens. And then, by the and all that happens. And then, by the way, I'm gone for a week and you go to way, I'm gone for a week and you go to way, I'm gone for a week and you go to the capital. You go to DC and actually the capital. You go to DC and actually the capital. You go to DC and actually go to the capital. go to the capital. go to the capital. >> That was not on my bingo card this year. >> That was not on my bingo card this year. >> That was not on my bingo card this year. Oh man. Uh, tell us about it, man. How Oh man. Uh, tell us about it, man. How Oh man. Uh, tell us about it, man. How did you get there? What was was what was did you get there? What was was what was did you get there? What was was what was that about? that about? that about? >> Literally a couple days ago. Um, so our >> Literally a couple days ago. Um, so our >> Literally a couple days ago. Um, so our friend Frank Turk uh extended the friend Frank Turk uh extended the friend Frank Turk uh extended the invitation and uh had the opportunity to invitation and uh had the opportunity to invitation and uh had the opportunity to go to Washington DC to the capital go to Washington DC to the capital go to Washington DC to the capital >> and uh we spent an evening with uh >> and uh we spent an evening with uh >> and uh we spent an evening with uh speaker Mike Johnson which was speaker Mike Johnson which was speaker Mike Johnson which was phenomenal. No way.

phenomenal. No way. phenomenal. No way. >> And uh we had a little bit of a a >> And uh we had a little bit of a a >> And uh we had a little bit of a a spiritual heritage tour in the capital. spiritual heritage tour in the capital. spiritual heritage tour in the capital. Uh it man honestly it was really cool to Uh it man honestly it was really cool to Uh it man honestly it was really cool to see how faith is woven into the art of see how faith is woven into the art of see how faith is woven into the art of the capital and also the architecture the capital and also the architecture the capital and also the architecture and the history. Um there's a lot that I and the history. Um there's a lot that I and the history. Um there's a lot that I could share with you. Paul you you've could share with you. Paul you you've could share with you. Paul you you've been there, right? been there, right? been there, right? >> I have been. I I've been to Israel. I've >> I have been. I I've been to Israel. I've >> I have been. I I've been to Israel. I've actually been to the capital multiple actually been to the capital multiple actually been to the capital multiple times. times. times. >> Okay. More than me probably. >> Okay. More than me probably. >> Okay. More than me probably. >> No. No. I'm just saying I've been to the >> No. No. I'm just saying I've been to the >> No. No. I'm just saying I've been to the capital. I'm tracking with you on this capital. I'm tracking with you on this capital. I'm tracking with you on this one. one. one. >> So honestly like probably one of the >> So honestly like probably one of the >> So honestly like probably one of the coolest experiences ever. I wish I had coolest experiences ever. I wish I had coolest experiences ever. I wish I had more time to just spend there cuz it was more time to just spend there cuz it was more time to just spend there cuz it was literally like we just went there. Uh, literally like we just went there. Uh, literally like we just went there. Uh, but if you go in there, I mean, there's but if you go in there, I mean, there's but if you go in there, I mean, there's like a Capitol prayer room for members like a Capitol prayer room for members like a Capitol prayer room for members of Congress. There's like a stained of Congress. There's like a stained of Congress. There's like a stained glass window with the Psalm 16:1 that glass window with the Psalm 16:1 that glass window with the Psalm 16:1 that says, "Preserve me, oh God, for in thee says, "Preserve me, oh God, for in thee says, "Preserve me, oh God, for in thee do I put my trust." There's like do I put my trust." There's like do I put my trust." There's like literally artwork depicting um faith and literally artwork depicting um faith and literally artwork depicting um faith and religious elements like literally religious elements like literally religious elements like literally everywhere. There's like a painting of everywhere. There's like a painting of everywhere. There's like a painting of like the baptism of Pocahontas. Um, and like the baptism of Pocahontas. Um, and like the baptism of Pocahontas. Um, and so honestly, like so much history. Um so honestly, like so much history. Um so honestly, like so much history. Um the it really shows just how the it really shows just how the it really shows just how Christianity profoundly impacted the uh Christianity profoundly impacted the uh Christianity profoundly impacted the uh the the the founders of our nation. And the the the founders of our nation. And the the the founders of our nation. And I want to show you my favorite actually.

I want to show you my favorite actually. I want to show you my favorite actually. So Trinity, if you can pull up that So Trinity, if you can pull up that So Trinity, if you can pull up that photo. photo. photo. >> This right here is a photo of the House >> This right here is a photo of the House >> This right here is a photo of the House Chamber. And uh if you if you are Chamber. And uh if you if you are Chamber. And uh if you if you are familiar with this place uh like I was familiar with this place uh like I was familiar with this place uh like I was before, you probably seen the the before, you probably seen the the before, you probably seen the the presidential address state of the union. presidential address state of the union. presidential address state of the union. This is where it happened. The photo This is where it happened. The photo This is where it happened. The photo makes it seem like this is a very big makes it seem like this is a very big makes it seem like this is a very big room, but it's actually quite small. room, but it's actually quite small. room, but it's actually quite small. >> Yeah, really small. >> Yeah, really small. >> Yeah, really small. >> Lots of history. This is where the >> Lots of history. This is where the >> Lots of history. This is where the representatives meet to pass on uh to representatives meet to pass on uh to representatives meet to pass on uh to debate laws, to vote on legislation. debate laws, to vote on legislation. debate laws, to vote on legislation. Basically, like these decisions are made Basically, like these decisions are made Basically, like these decisions are made in that room. Again, lots of history in that room. Again, lots of history in that room. Again, lots of history there. Uh what I found fascinating is if there. Uh what I found fascinating is if there. Uh what I found fascinating is if you go to the next photo above the you go to the next photo above the you go to the next photo above the speaker's chair, not that one actually, speaker's chair, not that one actually, speaker's chair, not that one actually, uh the one with the American flag, above uh the one with the American flag, above uh the one with the American flag, above the speaker's chair, the speaker's chair, the speaker's chair, >> if you pay attention, right above the >> if you pay attention, right above the >> if you pay attention, right above the American flag, for whatever reason, this American flag, for whatever reason, this American flag, for whatever reason, this doesn't make the the the TV whenever doesn't make the the the TV whenever doesn't make the the the TV whenever this is aired, but I don't know why. We this is aired, but I don't know why. We this is aired, but I don't know why. We probably need to change that. Find a probably need to change that. Find a probably need to change that. Find a way. Um it says in God we trust big way. Um it says in God we trust big way. Um it says in God we trust big letters right above the American flag. letters right above the American flag. letters right above the American flag. Again this just means right above the Again this just means right above the Again this just means right above the American flag then we are one nation. American flag then we are one nation. American flag then we are one nation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Under God. >> Under God. >> Under God. >> Every law passed by the house begins its >> Every law passed by the house begins its >> Every law passed by the house begins its journey in a room where the words in God journey in a room where the words in God journey in a room where the words in God we trust are just you know big right we trust are just you know big right we trust are just you know big right there bold in your face. Um which means there bold in your face. Um which means there bold in your face. Um which means again government leaders are accountable again government leaders are accountable again government leaders are accountable to I hire more authority now in that to I hire more authority now in that to I hire more authority now in that room as well. One more thing. Um, around room as well. One more thing. Um, around room as well. One more thing. Um, around the room there are portraits of the room there are portraits of the room there are portraits of different lawgivers in history. So, let different lawgivers in history. So, let different lawgivers in history. So, let me let me show you one. This is like me let me show you one. This is like me let me show you one. This is like what it looks. These are like little what it looks. These are like little what it looks. These are like little circles around the room.

circles around the room. circles around the room. >> What a beard. >> What a beard. >> What a beard. >> I do not know. I try to recognize some >> I do not know. I try to recognize some >> I do not know. I try to recognize some of the names. Honestly, I I I wasn't of the names. Honestly, I I I wasn't of the names. Honestly, I I I wasn't aware of some of these. This is like aware of some of these. This is like aware of some of these. This is like Justinian, Hammurabi, etc. And every Justinian, Hammurabi, etc. And every Justinian, Hammurabi, etc. And every single one of these faces and portraits single one of these faces and portraits single one of these faces and portraits are looking towards the side except for are looking towards the side except for are looking towards the side except for one in the middle, right in front of of one in the middle, right in front of of one in the middle, right in front of of where the speaker is. If you if right where the speaker is. If you if right where the speaker is. If you if right across there is one photo and uh the across there is one photo and uh the across there is one photo and uh the lawgiver in that photo is this one. You lawgiver in that photo is this one. You lawgiver in that photo is this one. You can see it is Moses. can see it is Moses. can see it is Moses. >> He's the only one that's not looking to >> He's the only one that's not looking to >> He's the only one that's not looking to the side. He's looking to the front. And the side. He's looking to the front. And the side. He's looking to the front. And here's the point. He's the one that gave here's the point. He's the one that gave here's the point. He's the one that gave us the law of God. us the law of God. us the law of God. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> God's law is about God's law is above >> God's law is about God's law is above >> God's law is about God's law is above every other human law. And that's the every other human law. And that's the every other human law. And that's the point, point, point, >> dude. That's so cool. I'm so glad you >> dude. That's so cool. I'm so glad you >> dude. That's so cool. I'm so glad you had that experience, man. That's killer. had that experience, man. That's killer. had that experience, man. That's killer. >> It was amazing. Honestly, again, I wish >> It was amazing. Honestly, again, I wish >> It was amazing. Honestly, again, I wish I had more time. Like we had there's so I had more time. Like we had there's so I had more time. Like we had there's so much there, but uh very grateful for it. much there, but uh very grateful for it. much there, but uh very grateful for it. >> So good, man. Well, good to be back with >> So good, man. Well, good to be back with >> So good, man. Well, good to be back with you, man. Glad to be here with you. you, man. Glad to be here with you. you, man. Glad to be here with you. >> Hey, bro. Week two of at the Movies. >> Hey, bro. Week two of at the Movies. >> Hey, bro. Week two of at the Movies. >> Come on, dude. It's the best series. >> Come on, dude. It's the best series. >> Come on, dude. It's the best series. >> Did you like the movie? >> Did you like the movie? >> Did you like the movie? >> Oh, man. It's so good. It's so good. >> Oh, man. It's so good. It's so good. >> Oh, man. It's so good. It's so good. [laughter] Like, I love At the Movies. [laughter] Like, I love At the Movies. [laughter] Like, I love At the Movies. Uh we got we're getting to hear stories Uh we got we're getting to hear stories Uh we got we're getting to hear stories of people like we actually heard one at of people like we actually heard one at of people like we actually heard one at All Staff this week talking about how All Staff this week talking about how All Staff this week talking about how literally sometimes this will be the literally sometimes this will be the literally sometimes this will be the series that they would not come to series that they would not come to series that they would not come to church for any other reason. People who church for any other reason. People who church for any other reason. People who were far from God, but then they come were far from God, but then they come were far from God, but then they come and they hear the gospel explained in a and they hear the gospel explained in a and they hear the gospel explained in a simple way they can understand and they simple way they can understand and they simple way they can understand and they find new life in Christ. Man, it's one find new life in Christ. Man, it's one find new life in Christ. Man, it's one of our of our of our >> We had uh 170 plus students get >> We had uh 170 plus students get >> We had uh 170 plus students get baptized. Ah, it was so good, man. Big baptized. Ah, it was so good, man. Big baptized. Ah, it was so good, man. Big celebration here. Here's a quick story, celebration here. Here's a quick story, celebration here. Here's a quick story, not from this weekend, but of a family I not from this weekend, but of a family I not from this weekend, but of a family I met literally like a couple weeks met literally like a couple weeks met literally like a couple weeks before. Uh, Trin, if you got that photo, before. Uh, Trin, if you got that photo, before. Uh, Trin, if you got that photo, this right here is Anthony and Ununice this right here is Anthony and Ununice this right here is Anthony and Ununice and their beautiful family. So, um, and

and their beautiful family. So, um, and and their beautiful family. So, um, and they were telling me that they lived in they were telling me that they lived in they were telling me that they lived in Illinois. Illinois. Illinois. >> At some point, they stumbled upon >> At some point, they stumbled upon >> At some point, they stumbled upon Lakeoint Church online and live free. Lakeoint Church online and live free. Lakeoint Church online and live free. >> They started to tune in regularly. And >> They started to tune in regularly. And >> They started to tune in regularly. And at some point, they were like, man, at some point, they were like, man, at some point, they were like, man, whatever this church has, we want it. whatever this church has, we want it. whatever this church has, we want it. >> We need it in our family. And so they >> We need it in our family. And so they >> We need it in our family. And so they decided to come visit on an Easter and decided to come visit on an Easter and decided to come visit on an Easter and then they just felt the conviction. We then they just felt the conviction. We then they just felt the conviction. We believe God is calling us to move our believe God is calling us to move our believe God is calling us to move our family to sell our home to come over family to sell our home to come over family to sell our home to come over here. Uh they they literally drove to here. Uh they they literally drove to here. Uh they they literally drove to Dallas. They got this is literally a Dallas. They got this is literally a Dallas. They got this is literally a photo after they got baptized. U they're photo after they got baptized. U they're photo after they got baptized. U they're now plugged in. They're in a they're now plugged in. They're in a they're now plugged in. They're in a they're going to look for uh a rooted group and going to look for uh a rooted group and going to look for uh a rooted group and Lake Point is now their home. Lake Point is now their home. Lake Point is now their home. >> Dude, that's amazing. >> Dude, that's amazing. >> Dude, that's amazing. >> Welcome home. >> Welcome home. >> Welcome home. >> Welcome home, >> Welcome home, >> Welcome home, >> bro. That's amazing. >> bro. That's amazing. >> bro. That's amazing. >> That is so amazing. Um, hey, if you are >> That is so amazing. Um, hey, if you are >> That is so amazing. Um, hey, if you are ever in the uh DFW area and you're a ever in the uh DFW area and you're a ever in the uh DFW area and you're a part of the Lifree Nation, come hang part of the Lifree Nation, come hang part of the Lifree Nation, come hang out. We'd love to say hi. out. We'd love to say hi. out. We'd love to say hi. >> Yeah, man. >> Yeah, man. >> Yeah, man. >> We get to Who knows? God may call you to >> We get to Who knows? God may call you to >> We get to Who knows? God may call you to move here one day, man. move here one day, man. move here one day, man. >> Be careful. God may just be careful. >> Be careful. God may just be careful. >> Be careful. God may just be careful. >> Watch out. If you come visit, [laughter] >> Watch out. If you come visit, [laughter] >> Watch out. If you come visit, [laughter] God might say, "Actually, I want you to God might say, "Actually, I want you to God might say, "Actually, I want you to move here." [snorts] So, and if you do, move here." [snorts] So, and if you do, move here." [snorts] So, and if you do, we'd love to see you and on a regular. we'd love to see you and on a regular. we'd love to see you and on a regular. Uh, also, if you're here visiting for Uh, also, if you're here visiting for Uh, also, if you're here visiting for the first time, we got a free gift for the first time, we got a free gift for the first time, we got a free gift for you. So, come say hi. Uh, find our you. So, come say hi. Uh, find our you. So, come say hi. Uh, find our first-time guest tent. If, uh, we do a first-time guest tent. If, uh, we do a first-time guest tent. If, uh, we do a giveaway every single week. So, if giveaway every single week. So, if giveaway every single week. So, if you're on YouTube or Spotify, comment you're on YouTube or Spotify, comment you're on YouTube or Spotify, comment hat. We would love to hook you up. We hat. We would love to hook you up. We hat. We would love to hook you up. We got these two hats as well if you want got these two hats as well if you want got these two hats as well if you want some more merch. By the way, we're some more merch. By the way, we're some more merch. By the way, we're working on new merch.

working on new merch. working on new merch. >> No way. >> No way. >> No way. >> Uh, yes, absolutely. >> Uh, yes, absolutely. >> Uh, yes, absolutely. >> Including the Israel shirt. Is that be a >> Including the Israel shirt. Is that be a >> Including the Israel shirt. Is that be a part of it? Limited. Limited edition. part of it? Limited. Limited edition. part of it? Limited. Limited edition. >> People want it. >> People want it. >> People want it. >> Come on. >> Come on. >> Come on. >> And I want you to sign it to for people. >> And I want you to sign it to for people. >> And I want you to sign it to for people. >> Hand sign all of them. >> Hand sign all of them. >> Hand sign all of them. >> If you want to find our merch, go to >> If you want to find our merch, go to >> If you want to find our merch, go to live free.shop or text the word hat live free.shop or text the word hat live free.shop or text the word hat to20411. Thanks you. Thank you for to20411. Thanks you. Thank you for to20411. Thanks you. Thank you for subscribing and liking all the things on subscribing and liking all the things on subscribing and liking all the things on YouTube, Spotify. We're uh it's fun to YouTube, Spotify. We're uh it's fun to YouTube, Spotify. We're uh it's fun to see that, man. Uh, also to download the see that, man. Uh, also to download the see that, man. Uh, also to download the Lakeoint Church app, you can text the Lakeoint Church app, you can text the Lakeoint Church app, you can text the word app to 20411. That's where you'll word app to 20411. That's where you'll word app to 20411. That's where you'll find the daily Bible reading plan find the daily Bible reading plan find the daily Bible reading plan amongst other things. Bro, we have an a amongst other things. Bro, we have an a amongst other things. Bro, we have an a really unique episode today. really unique episode today. really unique episode today. >> Honestly, I'm so excited. Uh, we have >> Honestly, I'm so excited. Uh, we have >> Honestly, I'm so excited. Uh, we have Katie Faust. Katie Faust. Katie Faust. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Coming in as a guest. Think this is >> Coming in as a guest. Think this is >> Coming in as a guest. Think this is probably going to be one of the most probably going to be one of the most probably going to be one of the most interesting conversations literally interesting conversations literally interesting conversations literally we've ever had on this podcast. we've ever had on this podcast. we've ever had on this podcast. >> 100%. We're covering some some things >> 100%. We're covering some some things >> 100%. We're covering some some things that we've covered before. So, I think that we've covered before. So, I think that we've covered before. So, I think we hitting gay marriage. will address we hitting gay marriage. will address we hitting gay marriage. will address IVF, which we addressed, I think around IVF, which we addressed, I think around IVF, which we addressed, I think around a year ago, and some other things around a year ago, and some other things around a year ago, and some other things around that. But what Katie does so amazingly that. But what Katie does so amazingly that. But what Katie does so amazingly is she comes at it from angles that most is she comes at it from angles that most is she comes at it from angles that most people don't. So, if you're already people don't. So, if you're already people don't. So, if you're already hearing the topics and you're thinking, hearing the topics and you're thinking, hearing the topics and you're thinking, "Oh, I've heard you guys address this "Oh, I've heard you guys address this "Oh, I've heard you guys address this before." Nope.

before." Nope. before." Nope. >> I'm guessing you've never heard it >> I'm guessing you've never heard it >> I'm guessing you've never heard it addressed the way Katie does. So, really addressed the way Katie does. So, really addressed the way Katie does. So, really encourage you to tune into that encourage you to tune into that encourage you to tune into that conversation. conversation. conversation. >> Extremely valuable. Honestly, again, I >> Extremely valuable. Honestly, again, I >> Extremely valuable. Honestly, again, I think one of my personal favorites. Uh think one of my personal favorites. Uh think one of my personal favorites. Uh so, I'm so excited for it to this so, I'm so excited for it to this so, I'm so excited for it to this conversation. So, uh here's what we're conversation. So, uh here's what we're conversation. So, uh here's what we're going to do. We're going to do this one going to do. We're going to do this one going to do. We're going to do this one real quick and then we're going to jump real quick and then we're going to jump real quick and then we're going to jump into the conversation with Katie. Yeah. into the conversation with Katie. Yeah. into the conversation with Katie. Yeah. Here in just a minute. But uh this Here in just a minute. But uh this Here in just a minute. But uh this weekend obviously uh week two of At the weekend obviously uh week two of At the weekend obviously uh week two of At the Movies. Uh great week, man. Facing Movies. Uh great week, man. Facing Movies. Uh great week, man. Facing fears, fears, fears, >> running towards the storm by the grace >> running towards the storm by the grace >> running towards the storm by the grace of God. You know, if you're a Christian, of God. You know, if you're a Christian, of God. You know, if you're a Christian, um we are called to live not by fear, um we are called to live not by fear, um we are called to live not by fear, but by faith, but by faith, but by faith, >> running towards what whatever it is God >> running towards what whatever it is God >> running towards what whatever it is God has called us to run towards. So, here's has called us to run towards. So, here's has called us to run towards. So, here's what we're going to do. Paul, when we're what we're going to do. Paul, when we're what we're going to do. Paul, when we're going to try to make this super going to try to make this super going to try to make this super practical. practical. practical. >> Yeah. If somebody is uh coming out of >> Yeah. If somebody is uh coming out of >> Yeah. If somebody is uh coming out of this weekend's message and you know this weekend's message and you know this weekend's message and you know maybe still wrestling with with some maybe still wrestling with with some maybe still wrestling with with some sort of fear, we're going to try to be sort of fear, we're going to try to be sort of fear, we're going to try to be helpful. Um what's one nugget that helpful. Um what's one nugget that helpful. Um what's one nugget that you're like, "Hey, this is what I want you're like, "Hey, this is what I want you're like, "Hey, this is what I want you to keep in mind as you wrestle with you to keep in mind as you wrestle with you to keep in mind as you wrestle with your fear um that will help you in your your fear um that will help you in your your fear um that will help you in your walk with Jesus." You're going to share walk with Jesus." You're going to share walk with Jesus." You're going to share one nugget. I got a little something and one nugget. I got a little something and one nugget. I got a little something and then we're going to jump into the then we're going to jump into the then we're going to jump into the conversation with Katie F on conversation with Katie F on conversation with Katie F on >> I love it. Before I share that nugget >> I love it. Before I share that nugget >> I love it. Before I share that nugget though, I'm going to put you on the though, I'm going to put you on the though, I'm going to put you on the spot.

spot. spot. >> Okay. Oh my goodness. >> Okay. Oh my goodness. >> Okay. Oh my goodness. >> What's the fear you have? And I I I >> What's the fear you have? And I I I >> What's the fear you have? And I I I don't mean like like a deep-seated like don't mean like like a deep-seated like don't mean like like a deep-seated like philosophical fear. I mean like just philosophical fear. I mean like just philosophical fear. I mean like just like what's a superficial or random fear like what's a superficial or random fear like what's a superficial or random fear that you have that you have that you have >> like a Okay. So the superficial it can >> like a Okay. So the superficial it can >> like a Okay. So the superficial it can just be whatever like you know just be whatever like you know just be whatever like you know >> are you afraid of clowns or anything >> are you afraid of clowns or anything >> are you afraid of clowns or anything like that? like that? like that? >> I'm not afraid of clowns. >> I'm not afraid of clowns. >> I'm not afraid of clowns. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Huh. Putting me on the spot here. >> Huh. Putting me on the spot here. >> Huh. Putting me on the spot here. >> I know I am putting you on the spot. >> I know I am putting you on the spot. >> I know I am putting you on the spot. You're afraid of facing Messi if your You're afraid of facing Messi if your You're afraid of facing Messi if your team ever had to face. team ever had to face. team ever had to face. >> I would not be afraid. I would be >> I would not be afraid. I would be >> I would not be afraid. I would be excited to face Messi. [laughter] Uh, excited to face Messi. [laughter] Uh, excited to face Messi. [laughter] Uh, and uh, and yeah, and uh, and yeah, and uh, and yeah, >> I can share some of mine if you're >> I can share some of mine if you're >> I can share some of mine if you're because apparently you're not afraid of because apparently you're not afraid of because apparently you're not afraid of anything. anything. anything. >> No, I didn't say that. [laughter] >> No, I didn't say that. [laughter] >> No, I didn't say that. [laughter] >> I don't know if this is a fear. Go >> I don't know if this is a fear. Go >> I don't know if this is a fear. Go ahead. You share yours and then ahead. You share yours and then ahead. You share yours and then >> Oh, I mean for me mine are mine are >> Oh, I mean for me mine are mine are >> Oh, I mean for me mine are mine are pretty classic. It's like snakes, pretty classic. It's like snakes, pretty classic. It's like snakes, spiders, sharks, spiders, sharks, spiders, sharks, >> you know. I mean, this me the three S's >> you know. I mean, this me the three S's >> you know. I mean, this me the three S's for sure. Um, also like for me like for sure. Um, also like for me like for sure. Um, also like for me like >> Have you seen a shark in real life? >> Have you seen a shark in real life? >> Have you seen a shark in real life? >> Yes, I have. Okay. Uh, and for me >> Yes, I have. Okay. Uh, and for me >> Yes, I have. Okay. Uh, and for me though, like a random one actually when though, like a random one actually when though, like a random one actually when we were in Canada, I had to had to deal we were in Canada, I had to had to deal we were in Canada, I had to had to deal with this fear. Oh, I should have with this fear. Oh, I should have with this fear. Oh, I should have thought about this and brought the video thought about this and brought the video thought about this and brought the video for you guys to watch. Could you see me for you guys to watch. Could you see me for you guys to watch. Could you see me holding on for dear life? Ah, it's a holding on for dear life? Ah, it's a holding on for dear life? Ah, it's a fail on my part. Anyways, so when it fail on my part. Anyways, so when it fail on my part. Anyways, so when it comes to heights, I'm not afraid of comes to heights, I'm not afraid of comes to heights, I'm not afraid of heights. If I'm on like just natural heights. If I'm on like just natural heights. If I'm on like just natural land or something like that, like that.

land or something like that, like that. land or something like that, like that. So, I'm a backpacker, I'm a hiker, I So, I'm a backpacker, I'm a hiker, I So, I'm a backpacker, I'm a hiker, I could stand on the edge of a thousand could stand on the edge of a thousand could stand on the edge of a thousand foot cliff and not feel nervous at all. foot cliff and not feel nervous at all. foot cliff and not feel nervous at all. But if it is anything man-made, I do not But if it is anything man-made, I do not But if it is anything man-made, I do not like it. So, like a fear of my like I like it. So, like a fear of my like I like it. So, like a fear of my like I hate glass windowed elevators. So, like hate glass windowed elevators. So, like hate glass windowed elevators. So, like where I can see out of the elevator when where I can see out of the elevator when where I can see out of the elevator when it's moving. Like I'm right now like it's moving. Like I'm right now like it's moving. Like I'm right now like cringing thinking about it. I can feel cringing thinking about it. I can feel cringing thinking about it. I can feel it well enough. Or uh when we went to it well enough. Or uh when we went to it well enough. Or uh when we went to Quebec, we tried some different things. Quebec, we tried some different things. Quebec, we tried some different things. My wife and I did. It was just she and My wife and I did. It was just she and My wife and I did. It was just she and I. So she had to try a multi-course meal I. So she had to try a multi-course meal I. So she had to try a multi-course meal where she didn't know what food was where she didn't know what food was where she didn't know what food was coming out and that makes her nervous. coming out and that makes her nervous. coming out and that makes her nervous. Uh she made me go ziplining over a Uh she made me go ziplining over a Uh she made me go ziplining over a waterfall that's taller than Niagara waterfall that's taller than Niagara waterfall that's taller than Niagara Falls. Okay. Falls. Okay. Falls. Okay. >> And so I had to walk up these stairs up >> And so I had to walk up these stairs up >> And so I had to walk up these stairs up the side of a cliff like 487 stairs to the side of a cliff like 487 stairs to the side of a cliff like 487 stairs to it which I was freaking out the whole it which I was freaking out the whole it which I was freaking out the whole time. And then I had to zipline and we time. And then I had to zipline and we time. And then I had to zipline and we were up high. And were up high. And were up high. And >> were you afraid? >> were you afraid? >> were you afraid? >> Oh, are you kidding me? Oh yeah. It's >> Oh, are you kidding me? Oh yeah. It's >> Oh, are you kidding me? Oh yeah. It's like if you actually there's we have like if you actually there's we have like if you actually there's we have video of it. I am like clinging on. video of it. I am like clinging on. video of it. I am like clinging on. She's like screaming, "I love you, She's like screaming, "I love you, She's like screaming, "I love you, baby." I'm not even like looking at her. baby." I'm not even like looking at her. baby." I'm not even like looking at her. I'm like just looking straight ahead. I'm like just looking straight ahead. I'm like just looking straight ahead. Yeah. No, it's a huge fear of mine. Yeah. No, it's a huge fear of mine. Yeah. No, it's a huge fear of mine. >> But you enjoyed it. >> But you enjoyed it. >> But you enjoyed it. >> I enjoyed I enjoyed surviving. >> I enjoyed I enjoyed surviving. >> I enjoyed I enjoyed surviving. >> You enjoyed it when it [laughter] ended. >> You enjoyed it when it [laughter] ended. >> You enjoyed it when it [laughter] ended. >> When it ended. You said I was Yeah. Huge >> When it ended. You said I was Yeah. Huge >> When it ended. You said I was Yeah. Huge smile on my face when it was over.

smile on my face when it was over. smile on my face when it was over. >> Yeah. Well, I think uh I don't know if >> Yeah. Well, I think uh I don't know if >> Yeah. Well, I think uh I don't know if this is a fear, but this is definitely this is a fear, but this is definitely this is a fear, but this is definitely something that I'm like it it gives me something that I'm like it it gives me something that I'm like it it gives me something like I feel something like I feel something like I feel >> ebees or you know, just something. Uh, >> ebees or you know, just something. Uh, >> ebees or you know, just something. Uh, it's rats. I I hate rats. it's rats. I I hate rats. it's rats. I I hate rats. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Uh, whenever I hate it. I absolutely >> Uh, whenever I hate it. I absolutely >> Uh, whenever I hate it. I absolutely hate it whenever, you know, we've had hate it whenever, you know, we've had hate it whenever, you know, we've had not not in my current home, but in my not not in my current home, but in my not not in my current home, but in my previous home, um, it was an older home previous home, um, it was an older home previous home, um, it was an older home and we had a rat once in a while like and we had a rat once in a while like and we had a rat once in a while like somehow get inside and bro, I absolutely somehow get inside and bro, I absolutely somehow get inside and bro, I absolutely hated it cuz I'm like, dang it. Now it's hated it cuz I'm like, dang it. Now it's hated it cuz I'm like, dang it. Now it's my job to figure out a way to like my job to figure out a way to like my job to figure out a way to like squish this thing somehow kill it. squish this thing somehow kill it. squish this thing somehow kill it. >> Uh, and then uh, but and I I don't like >> Uh, and then uh, but and I I don't like >> Uh, and then uh, but and I I don't like it. [laughter] it. [laughter] it. [laughter] >> I really like it. Yes. >> I really like it. Yes. >> I really like it. Yes. >> By the way, uh for context for people >> By the way, uh for context for people >> By the way, uh for context for people that didn't, you know, were not able to that didn't, you know, were not able to that didn't, you know, were not able to join us for at the movies. Uh the movie join us for at the movies. Uh the movie join us for at the movies. Uh the movie was twisters. was twisters. was twisters. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, we're talking about fear and facing >> So, we're talking about fear and facing >> So, we're talking about fear and facing that. that. that. >> You afraid of tornadoes or storms. >> You afraid of tornadoes or storms. >> You afraid of tornadoes or storms. >> Storms. Uh I'm afraid of what they do to >> Storms. Uh I'm afraid of what they do to >> Storms. Uh I'm afraid of what they do to houses and people. Yeah. houses and people. Yeah. houses and people. Yeah. >> That's probably actually a decent thing >> That's probably actually a decent thing >> That's probably actually a decent thing to be afraid of. I wouldn't want you to to be afraid of. I wouldn't want you to to be afraid of. I wouldn't want you to see a tornado. I'm like, "Oh, I'm going see a tornado. I'm like, "Oh, I'm going see a tornado. I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to move towards that thing." to move towards that thing." to move towards that thing." >> No. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's the context.

>> No. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's the context. >> No. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's the context. What do you got for What do you got for What do you got for >> Well, and partly partly I was just >> Well, and partly partly I was just >> Well, and partly partly I was just interested as we were sharing. It just interested as we were sharing. It just interested as we were sharing. It just dawned on me. I'd never asked you these dawned on me. I'd never asked you these dawned on me. I'd never asked you these things. Good. Good little ammo to know things. Good. Good little ammo to know things. Good. Good little ammo to know that you were afraid of frats in case that you were afraid of frats in case that you were afraid of frats in case you ever pick on me too much about you ever pick on me too much about you ever pick on me too much about Israel. Um but [laughter] Israel. Um but [laughter] Israel. Um but [laughter] no that would I would never do such a no that would I would never do such a no that would I would never do such a thing. thing. thing. >> Oh boy. Okay. >> Oh boy. Okay. >> Oh boy. Okay. >> Anyways, uh no but also like we all have >> Anyways, uh no but also like we all have >> Anyways, uh no but also like we all have fears like and some of them are like fears like and some of them are like fears like and some of them are like superficial or small but then also some superficial or small but then also some superficial or small but then also some of them are very serious and partly I of them are very serious and partly I of them are very serious and partly I would just tell people hey fear is would just tell people hey fear is would just tell people hey fear is simply an emotion. It's an emotion that simply an emotion. It's an emotion that simply an emotion. It's an emotion that we feel. In fact I would even say in we feel. In fact I would even say in we feel. In fact I would even say in some ways it can be a godwired emotion some ways it can be a godwired emotion some ways it can be a godwired emotion because if we never felt any fear we because if we never felt any fear we because if we never felt any fear we would probably do some really stupid would probably do some really stupid would probably do some really stupid things. The issue becomes when the fear things. The issue becomes when the fear things. The issue becomes when the fear begins to control us and keep us from begins to control us and keep us from begins to control us and keep us from stepping into what God would have us to stepping into what God would have us to stepping into what God would have us to step into or to overcome. So, in terms step into or to overcome. So, in terms step into or to overcome. So, in terms of a practical nugget till people of a practical nugget till people of a practical nugget till people overcome it, I don't want to feel like overcome it, I don't want to feel like overcome it, I don't want to feel like I'm I'm um going against something that I'm I'm um going against something that I'm I'm um going against something that Pastor Josh said in sermon, but in his Pastor Josh said in sermon, but in his Pastor Josh said in sermon, but in his sermon, he said, "Face your fears." I'm sermon, he said, "Face your fears." I'm sermon, he said, "Face your fears." I'm going to amend it a little bit because going to amend it a little bit because going to amend it a little bit because one thing I've said for a while, one thing I've said for a while, one thing I've said for a while, although not amended, I think it's same although not amended, I think it's same although not amended, I think it's same it's the same basic point. You're like, it's the same basic point. You're like, it's the same basic point. You're like, "Oh, yeah. You waited till he was gone "Oh, yeah. You waited till he was gone "Oh, yeah. You waited till he was gone so you could disagree with him." That's so you could disagree with him." That's so you could disagree with him." That's right. I knew I knew that's what you right. I knew I knew that's what you right. I knew I knew that's what you were thinking.

were thinking. were thinking. >> No, actually, not at all. >> No, actually, not at all. >> No, actually, not at all. >> But no, no, no. So here's what I would >> But no, no, no. So here's what I would >> But no, no, no. So here's what I would say is this, man. If you're in a say is this, man. If you're in a say is this, man. If you're in a situation where you're seriously afraid situation where you're seriously afraid situation where you're seriously afraid to face your fear. I actually amend that to face your fear. I actually amend that to face your fear. I actually amend that a little bit to say, "Hey, don't try to a little bit to say, "Hey, don't try to a little bit to say, "Hey, don't try to face your fears, then make your fears face your fears, then make your fears face your fears, then make your fears face your God." So let me say that. face your God." So let me say that. face your God." So let me say that. >> Say that one more time. Yeah. Yeah. >> Say that one more time. Yeah. Yeah. >> Say that one more time. Yeah. Yeah. >> Don't If you're really scared of >> Don't If you're really scared of >> Don't If you're really scared of something, you just can't overcome it. something, you just can't overcome it. something, you just can't overcome it. Then stop trying to face your fears and Then stop trying to face your fears and Then stop trying to face your fears and instead make your fears face your God. instead make your fears face your God. instead make your fears face your God. Here's what I mean about it. If you look Here's what I mean about it. If you look Here's what I mean about it. If you look in scripture, so many of the places in scripture, so many of the places in scripture, so many of the places where it says, "Do not be afraid." where it says, "Do not be afraid." where it says, "Do not be afraid." Isaiah 41:10 or Psalm 23, what you'll Isaiah 41:10 or Psalm 23, what you'll Isaiah 41:10 or Psalm 23, what you'll see is a common uh theme is do not be see is a common uh theme is do not be see is a common uh theme is do not be afraid for I am with you. For I am with afraid for I am with you. For I am with afraid for I am with you. For I am with you. So the idea that God is saying hey you. So the idea that God is saying hey you. So the idea that God is saying hey don't be afraid of this thing is usually don't be afraid of this thing is usually don't be afraid of this thing is usually by the way something that they had a by the way something that they had a by the way something that they had a reason to be afraid of. reason to be afraid of. reason to be afraid of. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> So like even when you think about it >> So like even when you think about it >> So like even when you think about it anytime you tell someone don't be afraid anytime you tell someone don't be afraid anytime you tell someone don't be afraid it's because there is something they it's because there is something they it's because there is something they should be afraid of. should be afraid of. should be afraid of. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And so he's telling them hey in a sense >> And so he's telling them hey in a sense >> And so he's telling them hey in a sense you're in a situation where it would be you're in a situation where it would be you're in a situation where it would be natural to feel fear but don't feel fear natural to feel fear but don't feel fear natural to feel fear but don't feel fear because I am with you. And so the way because I am with you. And so the way because I am with you. And so the way you can overcome it is not to try to you can overcome it is not to try to you can overcome it is not to try to face your fears, but to make your fears face your fears, but to make your fears face your fears, but to make your fears face your God. Because whatever fear face your God. Because whatever fear face your God. Because whatever fear you're facing actually might be bigger you're facing actually might be bigger you're facing actually might be bigger than you.

than you. than you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It actually might be something that you >> It actually might be something that you >> It actually might be something that you cannot overcome on your own. cannot overcome on your own. cannot overcome on your own. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But God is bigger than anything that >> But God is bigger than anything that >> But God is bigger than anything that you'd be possibly facing. And so it even you'd be possibly facing. And so it even you'd be possibly facing. And so it even kind of put this on as an illustration kind of put this on as an illustration kind of put this on as an illustration or an analogy for how I like to think of or an analogy for how I like to think of or an analogy for how I like to think of this sometimes is, you know, when we this sometimes is, you know, when we this sometimes is, you know, when we were growing up, I don't know if you did were growing up, I don't know if you did were growing up, I don't know if you did this, but you know, if anytime you were this, but you know, if anytime you were this, but you know, if anytime you were kind of feuding or going back and forth kind of feuding or going back and forth kind of feuding or going back and forth with a kid or something and they'd like, with a kid or something and they'd like, with a kid or something and they'd like, "Oh, I'll beat you up." What you would "Oh, I'll beat you up." What you would "Oh, I'll beat you up." What you would then begin doing, at least where I grew then begin doing, at least where I grew then begin doing, at least where I grew up, is you would begin appealing like, up, is you would begin appealing like, up, is you would begin appealing like, "Well, my brother can beat you up, or my "Well, my brother can beat you up, or my "Well, my brother can beat you up, or my brother can beat your brother up." brother can beat your brother up." brother can beat your brother up." Because if I said, "I'll beat you up." Because if I said, "I'll beat you up." Because if I said, "I'll beat you up." He'd be like, "Well, my brother will He'd be like, "Well, my brother will He'd be like, "Well, my brother will beat you up." And I'm like, "Well, my beat you up." And I'm like, "Well, my beat you up." And I'm like, "Well, my brother will beat your brother up." brother will beat your brother up." brother will beat your brother up." Yeah. Yeah. Just go back and forth. Yeah. Yeah. Just go back and forth. Yeah. Yeah. Just go back and forth. >> Find your own fights, bro. >> Find your own fights, bro. >> Find your own fights, bro. >> Yeah. Well, what was fun is my dad was a >> Yeah. Well, what was fun is my dad was a >> Yeah. Well, what was fun is my dad was a pastor, so it's like, "Well, my dad will pastor, so it's like, "Well, my dad will pastor, so it's like, "Well, my dad will beat your dad up." And I'll be like, beat your dad up." And I'll be like, beat your dad up." And I'll be like, "Well, my dad will send your dad to "Well, my dad will send your dad to "Well, my dad will send your dad to hell." hell." hell." >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> That's not true theologically, by the >> That's not true theologically, by the >> That's not true theologically, by the way. It's just when you're when you're a way. It's just when you're when you're a way. It's just when you're when you're a pastor's kid that that was the truth pastor's kid that that was the truth pastor's kid that that was the truth heard about that would then send the kid heard about that would then send the kid heard about that would then send the kid home crying um and get me in home crying um and get me in home crying um and get me in punishments. Anyways, uh but the point punishments. Anyways, uh but the point punishments. Anyways, uh but the point is what would I do in that moment? I is what would I do in that moment? I is what would I do in that moment? I feel so bad now saying that out loud. feel so bad now saying that out loud. feel so bad now saying that out loud. >> That's that's very interesting. I never >> That's that's very interesting. I never >> That's that's very interesting. I never heard that before. heard that before. heard that before. >> But I did that as a kid. Again, pastor's >> But I did that as a kid. Again, pastor's >> But I did that as a kid. Again, pastor's kid thing. Point is in that moment even kid thing. Point is in that moment even kid thing. Point is in that moment even if I feel like I couldn't overcome the if I feel like I couldn't overcome the if I feel like I couldn't overcome the person in front of me, I appealed to person in front of me, I appealed to person in front of me, I appealed to someone who was stronger than them.

someone who was stronger than them. someone who was stronger than them. That's great. So the the whole idea here That's great. So the the whole idea here That's great. So the the whole idea here is that anything you're afraid of, any is that anything you're afraid of, any is that anything you're afraid of, any situation which you're facing some fears situation which you're facing some fears situation which you're facing some fears or hesitations, remember that whatever or hesitations, remember that whatever or hesitations, remember that whatever you're facing is no match for your God. you're facing is no match for your God. you're facing is no match for your God. So instead of focusing on your fear, put So instead of focusing on your fear, put So instead of focusing on your fear, put your focus on your God and then make your focus on your God and then make your focus on your God and then make your fear face your God. That'd be the your fear face your God. That'd be the your fear face your God. That'd be the one nugget I'd say. one nugget I'd say. one nugget I'd say. >> That's really good. Let me let me add to >> That's really good. Let me let me add to >> That's really good. Let me let me add to that because this is kind of kind of that because this is kind of kind of that because this is kind of kind of what I had uh of how to do that because what I had uh of how to do that because what I had uh of how to do that because here's what I've done and this is here's what I've done and this is here's what I've done and this is extremely practical. Anytime that I'm extremely practical. Anytime that I'm extremely practical. Anytime that I'm wrestling with a fear because you said wrestling with a fear because you said wrestling with a fear because you said Paul, everybody has fears. Paul, everybody has fears. Paul, everybody has fears. >> Yeah. Another thing is for you to >> Yeah. Another thing is for you to >> Yeah. Another thing is for you to honestly either be paralyzed by a fear honestly either be paralyzed by a fear honestly either be paralyzed by a fear or there's a point where like it becomes or there's a point where like it becomes or there's a point where like it becomes an anxiety that's just like a an anxiety that's just like a an anxiety that's just like a neverending you're constantly thinking neverending you're constantly thinking neverending you're constantly thinking about something and then you're like about something and then you're like about something and then you're like it's kind of like it it possesses you in it's kind of like it it possesses you in it's kind of like it it possesses you in some ways. Um and so here's here's what some ways. Um and so here's here's what some ways. Um and so here's here's what I I have done and this is what has been I I have done and this is what has been I I have done and this is what has been helpful to me. Three things real quick. helpful to me. Three things real quick. helpful to me. Three things real quick. The first thing that has been helpful to The first thing that has been helpful to The first thing that has been helpful to me is number one, bombard your mind with me is number one, bombard your mind with me is number one, bombard your mind with truth. truth. truth. >> That's good, >> That's good, >> That's good, >> right? And so, um, I heard somebody say >> right? And so, um, I heard somebody say >> right? And so, um, I heard somebody say once, the three most important words for once, the three most important words for once, the three most important words for you and I in in light of eternity is is you and I in in light of eternity is is you and I in in light of eternity is is it is finished. This is what Jesus said it is finished. This is what Jesus said it is finished. This is what Jesus said at the cross. It is finished. That's one at the cross. It is finished. That's one at the cross. It is finished. That's one of the three most important words. But of the three most important words. But of the three most important words. But the three most important words in this the three most important words in this the three most important words in this lifetime, it is written.

lifetime, it is written. lifetime, it is written. >> So, this is what it means. Uh, 2 Timothy >> So, this is what it means. Uh, 2 Timothy >> So, this is what it means. Uh, 2 Timothy 1:7 says, "For God gave us a spirit not 1:7 says, "For God gave us a spirit not 1:7 says, "For God gave us a spirit not of fear, but of power and love and of fear, but of power and love and of fear, but of power and love and self-control." what I've done and what I self-control." what I've done and what I self-control." what I've done and what I do on honestly on a regular basis is I do on honestly on a regular basis is I do on honestly on a regular basis is I whenever I'm going through something and whenever I'm going through something and whenever I'm going through something and if something is causing me anxiety or if something is causing me anxiety or if something is causing me anxiety or there is a fear inside of me, the way there is a fear inside of me, the way there is a fear inside of me, the way you combat a lie is with truth. you combat a lie is with truth. you combat a lie is with truth. >> And so I want to bombard my mind. God >> And so I want to bombard my mind. God >> And so I want to bombard my mind. God did not give me a spirit of fear but of did not give me a spirit of fear but of did not give me a spirit of fear but of power, love, and self-control. I want to power, love, and self-control. I want to power, love, and self-control. I want to bombard my mind. Psalm 23, the Lord is bombard my mind. Psalm 23, the Lord is bombard my mind. Psalm 23, the Lord is my shepherd. And I'm literally preaching my shepherd. And I'm literally preaching my shepherd. And I'm literally preaching the gospel to my mind because this is the gospel to my mind because this is the gospel to my mind because this is what literally happens by default with what literally happens by default with what literally happens by default with literally like the world. literally like the world. literally like the world. >> And so I'm trying to counter those lies >> And so I'm trying to counter those lies >> And so I'm trying to counter those lies with the truth of the word of God. So with the truth of the word of God. So with the truth of the word of God. So bombard your mind. And what I do bombard your mind. And what I do bombard your mind. And what I do practically literally I'll write note practically literally I'll write note practically literally I'll write note cards and put it in places where I'm cards and put it in places where I'm cards and put it in places where I'm literally constantly seeing those those literally constantly seeing those those literally constantly seeing those those reminders of what is true. I do it every reminders of what is true. I do it every reminders of what is true. I do it every time I wake up. I there's literally in time I wake up. I there's literally in time I wake up. I there's literally in my my bathroom, in my room, in my my my bathroom, in my room, in my my my bathroom, in my room, in my office. Like I got things that I'm office. Like I got things that I'm office. Like I got things that I'm seeing and I'm reminding myself of what seeing and I'm reminding myself of what seeing and I'm reminding myself of what is true. That's number one. Number two, is true. That's number one. Number two, is true. That's number one. Number two, pray. 1 Peter 5 6-9. Cast your anxieties pray. 1 Peter 5 6-9. Cast your anxieties pray. 1 Peter 5 6-9. Cast your anxieties on him because he cares.

on him because he cares. on him because he cares. >> Brother, something supernatural happened >> Brother, something supernatural happened >> Brother, something supernatural happened when you just start praying and say, when you just start praying and say, when you just start praying and say, "God, I am afraid of this. "God, I am afraid of this. "God, I am afraid of this. >> God, help me with this fear >> God, help me with this fear >> God, help me with this fear >> and I can't explain it. But when I do >> and I can't explain it. But when I do >> and I can't explain it. But when I do pray and I every single day, God, God, I pray and I every single day, God, God, I pray and I every single day, God, God, I can't sleep. can't sleep. can't sleep. >> Would you help me be?" And and there are >> Would you help me be?" And and there are >> Would you help me be?" And and there are situations where, you know, man, you situations where, you know, man, you situations where, you know, man, you need to be strong and courageous. Um need to be strong and courageous. Um need to be strong and courageous. Um God, would you help me be strong and God, would you help me be strong and God, would you help me be strong and courageous? There are other situations courageous? There are other situations courageous? There are other situations maybe it's outside of your control. God, maybe it's outside of your control. God, maybe it's outside of your control. God, this is outside of my control. Would you this is outside of my control. Would you this is outside of my control. Would you help me surrender this? There's help me surrender this? There's help me surrender this? There's something supernatural happening with something supernatural happening with something supernatural happening with you when you do that that I have there's you when you do that that I have there's you when you do that that I have there's been moments where I've felt fear and a been moments where I've felt fear and a been moments where I've felt fear and a burden on my soul. And when I release burden on my soul. And when I release burden on my soul. And when I release that in prayer, there's just like a a that in prayer, there's just like a a that in prayer, there's just like a a light-heartedness. light-heartedness. light-heartedness. >> I love that. I'll let you go to your >> I love that. I'll let you go to your >> I love that. I'll let you go to your third thing in a second, but it almost third thing in a second, but it almost third thing in a second, but it almost reminds me it's like, hey, when when you reminds me it's like, hey, when when you reminds me it's like, hey, when when you and I both have kids, when your kids and I both have kids, when your kids and I both have kids, when your kids kids are scared at night, what's their kids are scared at night, what's their kids are scared at night, what's their instinct to go to dad and to go to mom instinct to go to dad and to go to mom instinct to go to dad and to go to mom and to ask for help cuz they're afraid. and to ask for help cuz they're afraid. and to ask for help cuz they're afraid. Hey, we're afraid. And so that's the Hey, we're afraid. And so that's the Hey, we're afraid. And so that's the thing is, man, when you're afraid, you thing is, man, when you're afraid, you thing is, man, when you're afraid, you could act like you're not afraid or could act like you're not afraid or could act like you're not afraid or stuff it down or like, oh, whatever. Not stuff it down or like, oh, whatever. Not stuff it down or like, oh, whatever. Not in that moment, just recognize it. And in that moment, just recognize it. And in that moment, just recognize it. And again, that helps you get your eyes on again, that helps you get your eyes on again, that helps you get your eyes on the God who is bigger than whatever the God who is bigger than whatever the God who is bigger than whatever you're afraid of. So, love that. Keep you're afraid of. So, love that. Keep you're afraid of. So, love that. Keep going.

going. going. >> So, and then, so one, bombard your mind >> So, and then, so one, bombard your mind >> So, and then, so one, bombard your mind with truth. Number two, pray. It's with truth. Number two, pray. It's with truth. Number two, pray. It's simple. Um, and and number three, um, do simple. Um, and and number three, um, do simple. Um, and and number three, um, do it afraid. And so, whatever it is, like it afraid. And so, whatever it is, like it afraid. And so, whatever it is, like if you are wrestling with fear, whatever if you are wrestling with fear, whatever if you are wrestling with fear, whatever it is that God is calling you to do, it is that God is calling you to do, it is that God is calling you to do, just do that. Yeah. Even if you're just do that. Yeah. Even if you're just do that. Yeah. Even if you're afraid, if it's a step of faith towards afraid, if it's a step of faith towards afraid, if it's a step of faith towards something, if it's a if it's a decision, something, if it's a if it's a decision, something, if it's a if it's a decision, if it's a conversation, whatever it is if it's a conversation, whatever it is if it's a conversation, whatever it is that you believe that God is calling you that you believe that God is calling you that you believe that God is calling you to do, you and I are called to be to do, you and I are called to be to do, you and I are called to be obedient. Keep moving forward and do it obedient. Keep moving forward and do it obedient. Keep moving forward and do it afraid. It's interesting in the Bible, afraid. It's interesting in the Bible, afraid. It's interesting in the Bible, God doesn't move until we move. You you God doesn't move until we move. You you God doesn't move until we move. You you see this in multiple parts in scripture. see this in multiple parts in scripture. see this in multiple parts in scripture. In the Old Testament, it wasn't until In the Old Testament, it wasn't until In the Old Testament, it wasn't until Moses stretched out his hand Moses stretched out his hand Moses stretched out his hand [clears throat] that God opened the sea. [clears throat] that God opened the sea. [clears throat] that God opened the sea. Again, I'm pretty sure Moses had some Again, I'm pretty sure Moses had some Again, I'm pretty sure Moses had some fear in in his heart uh in that fear in in his heart uh in that fear in in his heart uh in that situation, but it wasn't until he moved situation, but it wasn't until he moved situation, but it wasn't until he moved that God, you know, did something when that God, you know, did something when that God, you know, did something when Israel leaders uh that when when uh the Israel leaders uh that when when uh the Israel leaders uh that when when uh the the leaders of Israel their feet touched the leaders of Israel their feet touched the leaders of Israel their feet touched the water of the Jordan River, like the water of the Jordan River, like the water of the Jordan River, like that's literally what the Bible says that's literally what the Bible says that's literally what the Bible says that when they they touched the water, that when they they touched the water, that when they they touched the water, then God parted the sea. In the New then God parted the sea. In the New then God parted the sea. In the New Testament, Jesus tells the lepers to Testament, Jesus tells the lepers to Testament, Jesus tells the lepers to show themselves to their leaders. And show themselves to their leaders. And show themselves to their leaders. And the Bible says that as they were going, the Bible says that as they were going, the Bible says that as they were going, >> they were obeying, they were moving in >> they were obeying, they were moving in >> they were obeying, they were moving in the direction that God told them to the direction that God told them to the direction that God told them to move, then they were healed. So again, move, then they were healed. So again, move, then they were healed. So again, um, whatever it is that God is calling um, whatever it is that God is calling um, whatever it is that God is calling you, man, and honestly, I can count you, man, and honestly, I can count you, man, and honestly, I can count situations in my life where I know God situations in my life where I know God situations in my life where I know God is calling me to do one thing in is calling me to do one thing in is calling me to do one thing in particular, and I'm afraid particular, and I'm afraid particular, and I'm afraid >> and I'm like, God, I am afraid. Help me.

>> and I'm like, God, I am afraid. Help me. >> and I'm like, God, I am afraid. Help me. Give me the strength. Give me the power. Give me the strength. Give me the power. Give me the strength. Give me the power. Give me the courage. Because courage is Give me the courage. Because courage is Give me the courage. Because courage is not the absence of fear. It is the not the absence of fear. It is the not the absence of fear. It is the decision to move forward in spite of decision to move forward in spite of decision to move forward in spite of your fear. That's right. your fear. That's right. your fear. That's right. >> And so, uh, do those three things. >> And so, uh, do those three things. >> And so, uh, do those three things. That's going to be helpful. That's going to be helpful. That's going to be helpful. >> So, good, man. Glad we got that short >> So, good, man. Glad we got that short >> So, good, man. Glad we got that short convo. Then, now I guess we get to get convo. Then, now I guess we get to get convo. Then, now I guess we get to get to dive into the convo with Katie F, to dive into the convo with Katie F, to dive into the convo with Katie F, right? right? right? >> Get ready for an amazing conversation >> Get ready for an amazing conversation >> Get ready for an amazing conversation with the one and only Katie F. with the one and only Katie F. with the one and only Katie F. Well, hey, before we get back to the Well, hey, before we get back to the Well, hey, before we get back to the episode, I want to tell you about episode, I want to tell you about episode, I want to tell you about something coming up at Lake Point that something coming up at Lake Point that something coming up at Lake Point that we're really excited about this summer. we're really excited about this summer. we're really excited about this summer. We're hosting At the Movies, a 4-week We're hosting At the Movies, a 4-week We're hosting At the Movies, a 4-week sermon series where we'll use movie sermon series where we'll use movie sermon series where we'll use movie clips and stories to illustrate powerful clips and stories to illustrate powerful clips and stories to illustrate powerful biblical truths. It's one of the most biblical truths. It's one of the most biblical truths. It's one of the most fun and creative experiences we do all fun and creative experiences we do all fun and creative experiences we do all year at Lake Point. And it's designed year at Lake Point. And it's designed year at Lake Point. And it's designed for the entire family. And so every for the entire family. And so every for the entire family. And so every weekend at our physical locations, we'll weekend at our physical locations, we'll weekend at our physical locations, we'll feature unique movie themed experiences, feature unique movie themed experiences, feature unique movie themed experiences, fun characters in the lobby for both fun characters in the lobby for both fun characters in the lobby for both [music] kids and adults, incredible [music] kids and adults, incredible [music] kids and adults, incredible worship and practical teaching from the worship and practical teaching from the worship and practical teaching from the word of God, and of course, popcorn and word of God, and of course, popcorn and word of God, and of course, popcorn and drinks for everyone. So whether you are drinks for everyone. So whether you are drinks for everyone. So whether you are here and maybe you're a longtime church here and maybe you're a longtime church here and maybe you're a longtime church goer, someone who's been away from goer, someone who's been away from goer, someone who's been away from church for a while, or maybe you're church for a while, or maybe you're church for a while, or maybe you're looking for an easy way to invite a looking for an easy way to invite a looking for an easy way to invite a friend, neighbor, or co-orker to church, friend, neighbor, or co-orker to church, friend, neighbor, or co-orker to church, this right here is the perfect series this right here is the perfect series this right here is the perfect series for you. At the Movies is an in-person for you. At the Movies is an in-person for you. At the Movies is an in-person only event and begins July 11 and 12th only event and begins July 11 and 12th only event and begins July 11 and 12th and continues through August 1 and 2.

and continues through August 1 and 2. and continues through August 1 and 2. [music] And so if you're in the Dallas [music] And so if you're in the Dallas [music] And so if you're in the Dallas area, we'd love for you to join us at area, we'd love for you to join us at area, we'd love for you to join us at one of our campuses. You can find one of our campuses. You can find one of our campuses. You can find service times, locations, and more service times, locations, and more service times, locations, and more information by texting the word ATM information by texting the word ATM information by texting the word ATM [music] [music] [music] to 201411. Now, let's get back to the conversation. Now, let's get back to the conversation. Katie F, welcome to the Live Free Katie F, welcome to the Live Free Katie F, welcome to the Live Free Podcast. Podcast. Podcast. >> It's been a long time coming. >> It's been a long time coming. >> It's been a long time coming. >> Come on. >> Come on. >> Come on. >> Really glad to be here. >> Really glad to be here. >> Really glad to be here. >> Hey, I first heard about you, I think it >> Hey, I first heard about you, I think it >> Hey, I first heard about you, I think it was like three years ago because I was like three years ago because I was like three years ago because I connected with our common friend and connected with our common friend and connected with our common friend and your work colleague, uh, Josh Wood. M your work colleague, uh, Josh Wood. M your work colleague, uh, Josh Wood. M >> and honestly uh what I thought was I >> and honestly uh what I thought was I >> and honestly uh what I thought was I when I started listening to some of the when I started listening to some of the when I started listening to some of the things that you were sharing, I've never things that you were sharing, I've never things that you were sharing, I've never really heard anybody address those really heard anybody address those really heard anybody address those issues around marriage, family, and uh issues around marriage, family, and uh issues around marriage, family, and uh we're going to talk about this in just a we're going to talk about this in just a we're going to talk about this in just a second, reproductive technologies in the second, reproductive technologies in the second, reproductive technologies in the way that you have done it. And honestly, way that you have done it. And honestly, way that you have done it. And honestly, I I I I thought like, man, this is I I I I thought like, man, this is I I I I thought like, man, this is something honestly more people need to something honestly more people need to something honestly more people need to to hear about. And so, and we started to hear about. And so, and we started to hear about. And so, and we started having conversations about you having conversations about you having conversations about you potentially coming to the podcast and uh potentially coming to the podcast and uh potentially coming to the podcast and uh also even before we did, uh, Pastor Josh also even before we did, uh, Pastor Josh also even before we did, uh, Pastor Josh and I, we were already talking about, and I, we were already talking about, and I, we were already talking about, man, we need to bring Katie F at some man, we need to bring Katie F at some man, we need to bring Katie F at some point. So, so glad you're here. And it point. So, so glad you're here. And it point. So, so glad you're here. And it just so happens as well that we met in just so happens as well that we met in just so happens as well that we met in person for the first time literally like person for the first time literally like person for the first time literally like three days ago.

three days ago. three days ago. >> So [laughter] true. >> So [laughter] true. >> So [laughter] true. >> Yeah. Um, in the Capitol being toured >> Yeah. Um, in the Capitol being toured >> Yeah. Um, in the Capitol being toured >> out of all places >> out of all places >> out of all places >> by Mike Johnson. That's right. all these >> by Mike Johnson. That's right. all these >> by Mike Johnson. That's right. all these like secret places and like like secret places and like like secret places and like >> what I feel like is like newly unearthed >> what I feel like is like newly unearthed >> what I feel like is like newly unearthed historical knowledge about our amazing historical knowledge about our amazing historical knowledge about our amazing founding. Yeah, it was so it was so founding. Yeah, it was so it was so founding. Yeah, it was so it was so amazing. But amazing. But amazing. But >> have you been there? >> have you been there? >> have you been there? >> No. No. Well, I have been to DC. I don't >> No. No. Well, I have been to DC. I don't >> No. No. Well, I have been to DC. I don't think I've been in the capital think I've been in the capital think I've been in the capital buildings. I've been to some of the buildings. I've been to some of the buildings. I've been to some of the legislative buildings to meet with the legislative buildings to meet with the legislative buildings to meet with the different like senators and reps and different like senators and reps and different like senators and reps and things like that, but I've never been in things like that, but I've never been in things like that, but I've never been in the capital building. I've gotten great the capital building. I've gotten great the capital building. I've gotten great selfies with it behind me. selfies with it behind me. selfies with it behind me. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> But that's all. >> But that's all. >> But that's all. >> Man, uh it was it was it was really fun. >> Man, uh it was it was it was really fun. >> Man, uh it was it was it was really fun. >> It was amazing. >> It was amazing. >> It was amazing. And I want to say I'm really glad to be And I want to say I'm really glad to be And I want to say I'm really glad to be here because I am a fan of courage here because I am a fan of courage here because I am a fan of courage >> and I appreciate Pastor Josh or PJ >> and I appreciate Pastor Josh or PJ >> and I appreciate Pastor Josh or PJ >> as some people like to call him >> as some people like to call him >> as some people like to call him apparently. That's right. apparently. That's right. apparently. That's right. >> Um and I want more pastors to be bold. >> Um and I want more pastors to be bold. >> Um and I want more pastors to be bold. >> I want them to be clear. And I'll tell >> I want them to be clear. And I'll tell >> I want them to be clear. And I'll tell you what, like with all of the like you what, like with all of the like you what, like with all of the like >> smoke machines and jazz hands that a lot >> smoke machines and jazz hands that a lot >> smoke machines and jazz hands that a lot of people are adding to that. I mean, I of people are adding to that. I mean, I of people are adding to that. I mean, I say this as, you know, someone who was a say this as, you know, someone who was a say this as, you know, someone who was a pastor's wife for almost 30 years. Like pastor's wife for almost 30 years. Like pastor's wife for almost 30 years. Like all that you need from pastors today is all that you need from pastors today is all that you need from pastors today is tell us what the word of God says.

tell us what the word of God says. tell us what the word of God says. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Clearly and courageously about what's >> Clearly and courageously about what's >> Clearly and courageously about what's happening in our world today. happening in our world today. happening in our world today. >> And I think Pastor Josh does that really >> And I think Pastor Josh does that really >> And I think Pastor Josh does that really well. Had a chance to listen to the well. Had a chance to listen to the well. Had a chance to listen to the podcast um on my way over and I'm like podcast um on my way over and I'm like podcast um on my way over and I'm like ah a lot of you guys speaking clarity ah a lot of you guys speaking clarity ah a lot of you guys speaking clarity with courage. So it's a joy to be with with courage. So it's a joy to be with with courage. So it's a joy to be with you. you. you. >> Thank you for that. >> Thank you for that. >> Thank you for that. >> Glad to have you. Um hey for people that >> Glad to have you. Um hey for people that >> Glad to have you. Um hey for people that might not know you yet and they will. might not know you yet and they will. might not know you yet and they will. And uh let me just give you a quick And uh let me just give you a quick And uh let me just give you a quick little overview and I want to give you a little overview and I want to give you a little overview and I want to give you a chance to also explain what that is. You chance to also explain what that is. You chance to also explain what that is. You are the founder and president of Them are the founder and president of Them are the founder and president of Them Before Us, which is a nonprofit Before Us, which is a nonprofit Before Us, which is a nonprofit organization that focuses on the right organization that focuses on the right organization that focuses on the right of children to have a mother and a of children to have a mother and a of children to have a mother and a father and then how that affects father and then how that affects father and then how that affects policies around marriage, family, policies around marriage, family, policies around marriage, family, divorce, surrogacy, IVF, and more. Um, divorce, surrogacy, IVF, and more. Um, divorce, surrogacy, IVF, and more. Um, can you explain what that is and what can you explain what that is and what can you explain what that is and what that means? that means? that means? >> Yeah. So, children don't have a right to >> Yeah. So, children don't have a right to >> Yeah. So, children don't have a right to a mother and father, they have a right a mother and father, they have a right a mother and father, they have a right to their mother and father. And just to their mother and father. And just to their mother and father. And just like we understand that children have a like we understand that children have a like we understand that children have a right to life, children also have a right to life, children also have a right to life, children also have a right to be known and loved by the two right to be known and loved by the two right to be known and loved by the two people responsible for their existence. people responsible for their existence. people responsible for their existence. >> And this might sound a little strange to >> And this might sound a little strange to >> And this might sound a little strange to our ears, but when you're looking at um our ears, but when you're looking at um our ears, but when you're looking at um natural law, when you're looking at natural law, when you're looking at natural law, when you're looking at social science, when you're looking at social science, when you're looking at social science, when you're looking at the stories of children themselves, what the stories of children themselves, what the stories of children themselves, what you see is children do best. They fare you see is children do best. They fare you see is children do best. They fare best when they're raised by the man and best when they're raised by the man and best when they're raised by the man and woman that made them and they experience woman that made them and they experience woman that made them and they experience loss.

loss. loss. objective, measurable harm, identity objective, measurable harm, identity objective, measurable harm, identity struggles, development challenges, and struggles, development challenges, and struggles, development challenges, and are often placed in riskier homes when are often placed in riskier homes when are often placed in riskier homes when they're separated from their mother or they're separated from their mother or they're separated from their mother or father. [snorts] father. [snorts] father. [snorts] >> So, what we do with them before us is we >> So, what we do with them before us is we >> So, what we do with them before us is we defend that fundamental natural right defend that fundamental natural right defend that fundamental natural right children have to their mom and dad. And children have to their mom and dad. And children have to their mom and dad. And when you do that, um, it serves as a bit when you do that, um, it serves as a bit when you do that, um, it serves as a bit of a cheat sheet. You can lay that of a cheat sheet. You can lay that of a cheat sheet. You can lay that template over the top of any question of template over the top of any question of template over the top of any question of marriage or family and come out with the marriage or family and come out with the marriage or family and come out with the right policy decision and right personal right policy decision and right personal right policy decision and right personal decision. M decision. M decision. M >> it always results in the defense of >> it always results in the defense of >> it always results in the defense of children. It always results in having children. It always results in having children. It always results in having their needs met and it always requires their needs met and it always requires their needs met and it always requires that adults sacrifice. that adults sacrifice. that adults sacrifice. >> It always is going to cost adults >> It always is going to cost adults >> It always is going to cost adults something. And I often will say in something. And I often will say in something. And I often will say in interviews, give me enough time and I interviews, give me enough time and I interviews, give me enough time and I will piss you off too. will piss you off too. will piss you off too. >> Because this world where children have a >> Because this world where children have a >> Because this world where children have a right to life and a right to their right to life and a right to their right to life and a right to their mother and father means no adult gets a mother and father means no adult gets a mother and father means no adult gets a pass. Every adult, single, married, gay, pass. Every adult, single, married, gay, pass. Every adult, single, married, gay, straight, fertile, and infertile, at straight, fertile, and infertile, at straight, fertile, and infertile, at some point will have to say who's going some point will have to say who's going some point will have to say who's going to do the hard thing.

to do the hard thing. to do the hard thing. >> Is it going to be us, the adults, or is >> Is it going to be us, the adults, or is >> Is it going to be us, the adults, or is it going to be the kid? And in a just it going to be the kid? And in a just it going to be the kid? And in a just society, and certainly in a biblical society, and certainly in a biblical society, and certainly in a biblical worldview, it must be the adults worldview, it must be the adults worldview, it must be the adults sacrificing for the children. It must be sacrificing for the children. It must be sacrificing for the children. It must be the strong sacrificing for the weak. the strong sacrificing for the weak. the strong sacrificing for the weak. >> But what's happening in the world of >> But what's happening in the world of >> But what's happening in the world of marriage and family today is the exact marriage and family today is the exact marriage and family today is the exact opposite. It's always forcing the weak opposite. It's always forcing the weak opposite. It's always forcing the weak to sacrifice for the strong. It's always to sacrifice for the strong. It's always to sacrifice for the strong. It's always forcing children forcing children forcing children >> to do hard things on behalf of adults. >> to do hard things on behalf of adults. >> to do hard things on behalf of adults. >> So, we're going to talk about this right >> So, we're going to talk about this right >> So, we're going to talk about this right now uh in just a second. And honestly, now uh in just a second. And honestly, now uh in just a second. And honestly, we're going to get really practical we're going to get really practical we're going to get really practical because uh we're going to start with gay because uh we're going to start with gay because uh we're going to start with gay marriage marriage marriage >> and uh we're going to talk about IVF and >> and uh we're going to talk about IVF and >> and uh we're going to talk about IVF and surrogacy as well. And what's surrogacy as well. And what's surrogacy as well. And what's interesting to me is especially the interesting to me is especially the interesting to me is especially the reason I'm excited for this conversation reason I'm excited for this conversation reason I'm excited for this conversation Katie is because honestly if there are Katie is because honestly if there are Katie is because honestly if there are some issues in Christianity and honestly some issues in Christianity and honestly some issues in Christianity and honestly in the church in the last 1015 years gay in the church in the last 1015 years gay in the church in the last 1015 years gay marriage is probably one of those that I marriage is probably one of those that I marriage is probably one of those that I don't know that Christians are equipped don't know that Christians are equipped don't know that Christians are equipped enough or have been equipped enough to enough or have been equipped enough to enough or have been equipped enough to be able to uh the Bible says in first be able to uh the Bible says in first be able to uh the Bible says in first Peter 3:15 be ready to make a defense Peter 3:15 be ready to make a defense Peter 3:15 be ready to make a defense for what you believe. Somebody at some for what you believe. Somebody at some for what you believe. Somebody at some point will ask you hey why do you point will ask you hey why do you point will ask you hey why do you believe what you believe? Why do you believe what you believe? Why do you believe what you believe? Why do you stand for this or that? And we have a stand for this or that? And we have a stand for this or that? And we have a responsibility to be ready to defend responsibility to be ready to defend responsibility to be ready to defend what we believe. And so, um, this is what we believe. And so, um, this is what we believe. And so, um, this is probably one of those topics, gay probably one of those topics, gay probably one of those topics, gay marriage and homosexuality and and and marriage and homosexuality and and and marriage and homosexuality and and and what that looks like for us in our what that looks like for us in our what that looks like for us in our culture, in our nation, um, that I just culture, in our nation, um, that I just culture, in our nation, um, that I just genuinely don't think most Christian genuinely don't think most Christian genuinely don't think most Christian perhaps really know how to we know what perhaps really know how to we know what perhaps really know how to we know what the Bible says, but when it comes to the Bible says, but when it comes to the Bible says, but when it comes to hanging out with family or friends or hanging out with family or friends or hanging out with family or friends or people that are genuinely curious and people that are genuinely curious and people that are genuinely curious and they probably disagree with us, we are they probably disagree with us, we are they probably disagree with us, we are just not ready for it. And so what I

just not ready for it. And so what I just not ready for it. And so what I want to do uh in this conversation is I want to do uh in this conversation is I want to do uh in this conversation is I want to tackle every emotionally want to tackle every emotionally want to tackle every emotionally compelling argument that gets thrown at compelling argument that gets thrown at compelling argument that gets thrown at Christians all the time regarding gay Christians all the time regarding gay Christians all the time regarding gay marriage and then we'll transition to marriage and then we'll transition to marriage and then we'll transition to talk about IVF and surrogacy. Uh one talk about IVF and surrogacy. Uh one talk about IVF and surrogacy. Uh one quick disclaimer as well. quick disclaimer as well. quick disclaimer as well. >> There is no chance we're going to be >> There is no chance we're going to be >> There is no chance we're going to be able to cover every single thing able to cover every single thing able to cover every single thing regarding those conversation. This is regarding those conversation. This is regarding those conversation. This is such a huge conversation at some point such a huge conversation at some point such a huge conversation at some point likely we're we might even do like a likely we're we might even do like a likely we're we might even do like a deeper dive. Uh so in fact if somebody's deeper dive. Uh so in fact if somebody's deeper dive. Uh so in fact if somebody's joining right now and they're like man joining right now and they're like man joining right now and they're like man what about this thing and what about what about this thing and what about what about this thing and what about this other question let us know in the this other question let us know in the this other question let us know in the comment section if you go on YouTube or comment section if you go on YouTube or comment section if you go on YouTube or Spotify drop it in the comments and Spotify drop it in the comments and Spotify drop it in the comments and we're actually going to use that we're actually going to use that we're actually going to use that information to figure out okay this is information to figure out okay this is information to figure out okay this is what we need to do a deep dive in for what we need to do a deep dive in for what we need to do a deep dive in for the following episodes cuz obviously uh the following episodes cuz obviously uh the following episodes cuz obviously uh there's so much in this conversation and there's so much in this conversation and there's so much in this conversation and you know we only have so much time for you know we only have so much time for you know we only have so much time for this time so uh let's start with gay this time so uh let's start with gay this time so uh let's start with gay marriage marriage marriage >> Chad Gosia how are you man >> Chad Gosia how are you man >> Chad Gosia how are you man >> I'm doing good man >> I'm doing good man >> I'm doing good man >> were you earlier going to make a joke >> were you earlier going to make a joke >> were you earlier going to make a joke about if I've been building on your I about if I've been building on your I about if I've been building on your I was about to say it because he I just was about to say it because he I just was about to say it because he I just see him. They have an ongoing joke with see him. They have an ongoing joke with see him. They have an ongoing joke with me if I've [clears throat] been to me if I've [clears throat] been to me if I've [clears throat] been to Israel. Israel. Israel. >> Um, you know what I was going to say?

>> Um, you know what I was going to say? >> Um, you know what I was going to say? You know what I was going to say? Uh, I You know what I was going to say? Uh, I You know what I was going to say? Uh, I was going to say uh Yeah, cuz we were in was going to say uh Yeah, cuz we were in was going to say uh Yeah, cuz we were in DC. I was like I was going to say, Chad, DC. I was like I was going to say, Chad, DC. I was like I was going to say, Chad, you have you been to DC? you have you been to DC? you have you been to DC? >> I have been to DC. I used to live in the >> I have been to DC. I used to live in the >> I have been to DC. I used to live in the DC area. Thank you. Thank you. So, I've DC area. Thank you. Thank you. So, I've DC area. Thank you. Thank you. So, I've been to the capital multiple times. been to the capital multiple times. been to the capital multiple times. >> Oh, more than me. >> Oh, more than me. >> Oh, more than me. >> More. Wow. Yes. Yes. More than That >> More. Wow. Yes. Yes. More than That >> More. Wow. Yes. Yes. More than That makes me feel so good that I've been a makes me feel so good that I've been a makes me feel so good that I've been a place more than him. He's Mr. Worldwide. place more than him. He's Mr. Worldwide. place more than him. He's Mr. Worldwide. He's been pretty much everywhere. Him He's been pretty much everywhere. Him He's been pretty much everywhere. Him and Pipple. And uh for you, [laughter] and Pipple. And uh for you, [laughter] and Pipple. And uh for you, [laughter] >> thank you for only I got it. >> thank you for only I got it. >> thank you for only I got it. >> But I'm sorry. I could see it on his >> But I'm sorry. I could see it on his >> But I'm sorry. I could see it on his face and he just Yeah, I had to bring it face and he just Yeah, I had to bring it face and he just Yeah, I had to bring it back for you. So anyway, back for you. So anyway, back for you. So anyway, >> let me talk about gay marriage for a >> let me talk about gay marriage for a >> let me talk about gay marriage for a second. Okay, so in 2015, the law was second. Okay, so in 2015, the law was second. Okay, so in 2015, the law was changed so that every state required now changed so that every state required now changed so that every state required now after 2015 to recognize same-sex after 2015 to recognize same-sex after 2015 to recognize same-sex marriage. So this is what this means marriage. So this is what this means marriage. So this is what this means from a legal perspective. The definition from a legal perspective. The definition from a legal perspective. The definition of marriage was changed. of marriage was changed. of marriage was changed. >> Since then, Christians really again uh >> Since then, Christians really again uh >> Since then, Christians really again uh it's been like a thing. And we were just it's been like a thing. And we were just it's been like a thing. And we were just talking about this right before this talking about this right before this talking about this right before this podcast, like we we've struggled really podcast, like we we've struggled really podcast, like we we've struggled really to figure out, man, how do I I know what to figure out, man, how do I I know what to figure out, man, how do I I know what the Bible says. I don't know how to the Bible says. I don't know how to the Bible says. I don't know how to explain it to people or even not justify explain it to people or even not justify explain it to people or even not justify it, but help people understand why we it, but help people understand why we it, but help people understand why we believe what we believe. And so, we did believe what we believe. And so, we did believe what we believe. And so, we did a full episode on homosexuality, the a full episode on homosexuality, the a full episode on homosexuality, the whole ideology behind LGBTQ plus love is whole ideology behind LGBTQ plus love is whole ideology behind LGBTQ plus love is love with Paul, uh me and Paul, uh I love with Paul, uh me and Paul, uh I love with Paul, uh me and Paul, uh I think it was like a month ago. We're think it was like a month ago. We're think it was like a month ago. We're going to drop that in the show notes and going to drop that in the show notes and going to drop that in the show notes and in the description of this video.

in the description of this video. in the description of this video. Arthur's going to help me out with that. Arthur's going to help me out with that. Arthur's going to help me out with that. Um Paul, would you just briefly give us Um Paul, would you just briefly give us Um Paul, would you just briefly give us like an overview? Hey, if you are new like an overview? Hey, if you are new like an overview? Hey, if you are new joining the livery podcast and you just joining the livery podcast and you just joining the livery podcast and you just don't know, here's what the Bible says don't know, here's what the Bible says don't know, here's what the Bible says around this topic. around this topic. around this topic. >> That's good. Well, when we get into >> That's good. Well, when we get into >> That's good. Well, when we get into this, actually before we jump into this, actually before we jump into this, actually before we jump into definitions of marriage or men and definitions of marriage or men and definitions of marriage or men and women, I actually just like to start women, I actually just like to start women, I actually just like to start with, hey, we we really have to start with, hey, we we really have to start with, hey, we we really have to start with God. And that seems obvious, but with God. And that seems obvious, but with God. And that seems obvious, but but here's why is that we can ask a lot but here's why is that we can ask a lot but here's why is that we can ask a lot of questions around homosexuality and of questions around homosexuality and of questions around homosexuality and gay marriage and all these things, but gay marriage and all these things, but gay marriage and all these things, but really it all comes down to two really it all comes down to two really it all comes down to two questions. Who has designed me? And who questions. Who has designed me? And who questions. Who has designed me? And who has created me? Who's the designer and has created me? Who's the designer and has created me? Who's the designer and the creator? Because the one who designs the creator? Because the one who designs the creator? Because the one who designs is the one who gets to decide is the one who gets to decide is the one who gets to decide >> and whoever owns something is the one >> and whoever owns something is the one >> and whoever owns something is the one who gets to decide what is what is done who gets to decide what is what is done who gets to decide what is what is done with that. And so at the end of the day, with that. And so at the end of the day, with that. And so at the end of the day, if there is no God, we can construct if there is no God, we can construct if there is no God, we can construct marriage to be whatever we want it to marriage to be whatever we want it to marriage to be whatever we want it to be. Love whoever you want, do whatever be. Love whoever you want, do whatever be. Love whoever you want, do whatever you want, be whoever you want. But if you want, be whoever you want. But if you want, be whoever you want. But if there is a God who has actually designed there is a God who has actually designed there is a God who has actually designed me and created me, then the first me and created me, then the first me and created me, then the first question is is what does he want? Not question is is what does he want? Not question is is what does he want? Not what do I want? What is his desire? Not what do I want? What is his desire? Not what do I want? What is his desire? Not as what my desire. So then if we use as what my desire. So then if we use as what my desire. So then if we use that as an as a kind of a foundational that as an as a kind of a foundational that as an as a kind of a foundational idea and then say okay his will his idea and then say okay his will his idea and then say okay his will his desire is then revealed in the Bible desire is then revealed in the Bible desire is then revealed in the Bible then we have to say okay what does the then we have to say okay what does the then we have to say okay what does the Bible say about God's design Bible say about God's design Bible say about God's design specifically for marriage and the idea specifically for marriage and the idea specifically for marriage and the idea of marriage scriptures and we see this of marriage scriptures and we see this of marriage scriptures and we see this in Genesis so in creation before sin in Genesis so in creation before sin in Genesis so in creation before sin ever enters into the picture there's a ever enters into the picture there's a ever enters into the picture there's a marriage and then this design is then marriage and then this design is then marriage and then this design is then reaffirmed throughout the rest of reaffirmed throughout the rest of reaffirmed throughout the rest of scripture without fail and that is the scripture without fail and that is the scripture without fail and that is the idea that for a romantic relationship idea that for a romantic relationship idea that for a romantic relationship God has designed for a one biological God has designed for a one biological God has designed for a one biological man and one biological woman to be

man and one biological woman to be man and one biological woman to be together in a lifelong union we call together in a lifelong union we call together in a lifelong union we call marriage and it has a few big purposes marriage and it has a few big purposes marriage and it has a few big purposes when we look at scripture one is when we look at scripture one is when we look at scripture one is faithful intimate and loving faithful intimate and loving faithful intimate and loving companionship but another and this will companionship but another and this will companionship but another and this will go into a big thing that you that I love go into a big thing that you that I love go into a big thing that you that I love you lean into is the bearing and raising you lean into is the bearing and raising you lean into is the bearing and raising of children of children of children >> so idea of God has designed marriage to >> so idea of God has designed marriage to >> so idea of God has designed marriage to be the faithful and loving union be the faithful and loving union be the faithful and loving union lifelong union of one man one biological lifelong union of one man one biological lifelong union of one man one biological man one biological woman in marriage for man one biological woman in marriage for man one biological woman in marriage for loving and faithful companionship for loving and faithful companionship for loving and faithful companionship for raising of children and for rightly raising of children and for rightly raising of children and for rightly ordering sexual relationships there's ordering sexual relationships there's ordering sexual relationships there's more that could be said, but that's just more that could be said, but that's just more that could be said, but that's just kind of a foundational thing that we see kind of a foundational thing that we see kind of a foundational thing that we see all the way starting in Genesis with all the way starting in Genesis with all the way starting in Genesis with Adam and Eve, but then Jesus reaffirms Adam and Eve, but then Jesus reaffirms Adam and Eve, but then Jesus reaffirms this design in the Gospels. And so this design in the Gospels. And so this design in the Gospels. And so people like, "Oh, Jesus never said people like, "Oh, Jesus never said people like, "Oh, Jesus never said anything about marriage." No, he did. He anything about marriage." No, he did. He anything about marriage." No, he did. He reaffirmed God's original design in the reaffirmed God's original design in the reaffirmed God's original design in the book of Genesis. Anything you think I book of Genesis. Anything you think I book of Genesis. Anything you think I left out that is important? left out that is important? left out that is important? >> Obviously, as a church, we care about >> Obviously, as a church, we care about >> Obviously, as a church, we care about marriage because strong marriages build marriage because strong marriages build marriage because strong marriages build strong families and strong families strong families and strong families strong families and strong families build strong disciples. So, it's a big build strong disciples. So, it's a big build strong disciples. So, it's a big deal. Obviously, we're going to talk deal. Obviously, we're going to talk deal. Obviously, we're going to talk about this. Katie Foust, if you have two about this. Katie Foust, if you have two about this. Katie Foust, if you have two adults that are same sex, uh, that are adults that are same sex, uh, that are adults that are same sex, uh, that are of the same sex, they just love each of the same sex, they just love each of the same sex, they just love each other faithfully and they live together other faithfully and they live together other faithfully and they live together and they're faithful to each other.

and they're faithful to each other. and they're faithful to each other. >> What is wrong with that? >> What is wrong with that? >> What is wrong with that? >> Okay, let me back up. >> Okay, let me back up. >> Okay, let me back up. >> Please do. I thought I could tell you >> Please do. I thought I could tell you >> Please do. I thought I could tell you wanted to ask some stuff. wanted to ask some stuff. wanted to ask some stuff. >> I just fill in there because it will >> I just fill in there because it will >> I just fill in there because it will help us springboard answer this help us springboard answer this help us springboard answer this question. question. question. >> So, when Jesus was asked about marriage, >> So, when Jesus was asked about marriage, >> So, when Jesus was asked about marriage, he went back to the order of creation. he went back to the order of creation. he went back to the order of creation. >> Yes, he did. >> Yes, he did. >> Yes, he did. >> Okay. And his very tight definition of >> Okay. And his very tight definition of >> Okay. And his very tight definition of marriage had three specific marriage had three specific marriage had three specific characteristics to them, right? He said characteristics to them, right? He said characteristics to them, right? He said um a man um a man um a man >> while leave his father and mother and be >> while leave his father and mother and be >> while leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife. The two shall become joined to his wife. The two shall become joined to his wife. The two shall become one flesh. What God has joined together one flesh. What God has joined together one flesh. What God has joined together let no man separate. So what do you see? let no man separate. So what do you see? let no man separate. So what do you see? Three non-negotiables, three aspects Three non-negotiables, three aspects Three non-negotiables, three aspects that sets this relationship apart from that sets this relationship apart from that sets this relationship apart from all other relationships. The first is all other relationships. The first is all other relationships. The first is complimentarity. It's what you said, complimentarity. It's what you said, complimentarity. It's what you said, male and female, right? male and female, right? male and female, right? >> Man, wife, mother, father. We've got >> Man, wife, mother, father. We've got >> Man, wife, mother, father. We've got very gender specific terms used there. very gender specific terms used there. very gender specific terms used there. The second one is one flesh. So that The second one is one flesh. So that The second one is one flesh. So that idea is monogamous. There's only one idea is monogamous. There's only one idea is monogamous. There's only one other person in that relationship with other person in that relationship with other person in that relationship with you. It excludes all others. It forsakes you. It excludes all others. It forsakes you. It excludes all others. It forsakes all others. And number three, it's what all others. And number three, it's what all others. And number three, it's what God has joined together. Let no man God has joined together. Let no man God has joined together. Let no man separate. It should be permanent. It separate. It should be permanent. It separate. It should be permanent. It should be lifelong. So we think about should be lifelong. So we think about should be lifelong. So we think about that and we think, "Wow, this is that and we think, "Wow, this is that and we think, "Wow, this is beautiful. It's a picture of Christ in beautiful. It's a picture of Christ in beautiful. It's a picture of Christ in the church." Yes, all of that is true.

the church." Yes, all of that is true. the church." Yes, all of that is true. But God is the maker. He is the creator. But God is the maker. He is the creator. But God is the maker. He is the creator. He is the owner. And so he gets to He is the owner. And so he gets to He is the owner. And so he gets to decide. So what is it that he cares for? decide. So what is it that he cares for? decide. So what is it that he cares for? What is it that he loves? And you will What is it that he loves? And you will What is it that he loves? And you will see all throughout his laced through the see all throughout his laced through the see all throughout his laced through the Old Testament and the New Testament, Old Testament and the New Testament, Old Testament and the New Testament, do not touch the children. do not touch the children. do not touch the children. >> God has a fierce, ferocious, >> God has a fierce, ferocious, >> God has a fierce, ferocious, protective heart for kids. And I was protective heart for kids. And I was protective heart for kids. And I was listening to your podcast that was both listening to your podcast that was both listening to your podcast that was both about LGBTQ, but also about anger. And about LGBTQ, but also about anger. And about LGBTQ, but also about anger. And you guys talked about when you stand by you guys talked about when you stand by you guys talked about when you stand by and you refuse to be angry about things and you refuse to be angry about things and you refuse to be angry about things that deserve anger, there's actually that deserve anger, there's actually that deserve anger, there's actually something wrong with that. something wrong with that. something wrong with that. >> God gets angry when children are harmed. >> God gets angry when children are harmed. >> God gets angry when children are harmed. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> So his primary vehicle for child >> So his primary vehicle for child >> So his primary vehicle for child protection is actually marriage, protection is actually marriage, protection is actually marriage, >> complimentarity, monogamy and >> complimentarity, monogamy and >> complimentarity, monogamy and permanence. permanence. permanence. >> So what is it that those three things do >> So what is it that those three things do >> So what is it that those three things do for children that are so critical? for children that are so critical? for children that are so critical? Because we can look at this and we can Because we can look at this and we can Because we can look at this and we can say this is beautiful. You know, it's a say this is beautiful. You know, it's a say this is beautiful. You know, it's a sort of archetype. No, it actually has sort of archetype. No, it actually has sort of archetype. No, it actually has very sociological very sociological very sociological um receipts attached to them. um receipts attached to them. um receipts attached to them. >> So the complimentarity means that >> So the complimentarity means that >> So the complimentarity means that there's always going to be a male parent there's always going to be a male parent there's always going to be a male parent and a female parent. Why does that and a female parent. Why does that and a female parent. Why does that matter to kids? Because men and women matter to kids? Because men and women matter to kids? Because men and women are different. And I will often are different. And I will often are different. And I will often illustrate this when I go speak in large illustrate this when I go speak in large illustrate this when I go speak in large groups and I'll say,"I want you to raise groups and I'll say,"I want you to raise groups and I'll say,"I want you to raise your hand if you've ever seen a baby your hand if you've ever seen a baby your hand if you've ever seen a baby thrown up in the air." And everybody thrown up in the air." And everybody thrown up in the air." And everybody raises their hand. And then I say, "I raises their hand. And then I say, "I raises their hand. And then I say, "I want you to keep your hand up if the want you to keep your hand up if the want you to keep your hand up if the person throwing the baby was a woman person throwing the baby was a woman person throwing the baby was a woman >> and almost everybody puts their hands >> and almost everybody puts their hands >> and almost everybody puts their hands down." So that is one of the easiest down." So that is one of the easiest down." So that is one of the easiest ways to illustrate the benefits and the

ways to illustrate the benefits and the ways to illustrate the benefits and the distinctions between fathers and distinctions between fathers and distinctions between fathers and mothers. mothers. mothers. >> I I say, you know, moms don't throw >> I I say, you know, moms don't throw >> I I say, you know, moms don't throw babies, babies, babies, >> moms wear babies. And so it's this >> moms wear babies. And so it's this >> moms wear babies. And so it's this picture of what mothers and fathers do picture of what mothers and fathers do picture of what mothers and fathers do differently and both of them are differently and both of them are differently and both of them are critical to kids. So mothers promote critical to kids. So mothers promote critical to kids. So mothers promote attachment. Mothers promote security, attachment. Mothers promote security, attachment. Mothers promote security, right? By literally keeping the baby right? By literally keeping the baby right? By literally keeping the baby close, by responding more quickly to, close, by responding more quickly to, close, by responding more quickly to, for example, infant cries. A woman, a for example, infant cries. A woman, a for example, infant cries. A woman, a mother will respond in half the time to mother will respond in half the time to mother will respond in half the time to a distressed baby as a dad will. a distressed baby as a dad will. a distressed baby as a dad will. >> But dads promote independence. Dad >> But dads promote independence. Dad >> But dads promote independence. Dad promotes separation. Dads are the ones promotes separation. Dads are the ones promotes separation. Dads are the ones that are saying, "You can make it. Run that are saying, "You can make it. Run that are saying, "You can make it. Run higher, go faster, go bigger, swing the higher, go faster, go bigger, swing the higher, go faster, go bigger, swing the hammer, climb the tree." And the moms hammer, climb the tree." And the moms hammer, climb the tree." And the moms will say, "Not so high. Can you go will say, "Not so high. Can you go will say, "Not so high. Can you go slower?" And you actually need both of slower?" And you actually need both of slower?" And you actually need both of those, right? You need the one that is those, right? You need the one that is those, right? You need the one that is focused on their immediate emotional focused on their immediate emotional focused on their immediate emotional well-being, and you need the one that well-being, and you need the one that well-being, and you need the one that says, says, says, >> "Actually, it's time for you to just get >> "Actually, it's time for you to just get >> "Actually, it's time for you to just get a job, a job, a job, >> you know?" So you need that comp kids >> you know?" So you need that comp kids >> you know?" So you need that comp kids need that complimentarity for maximum need that complimentarity for maximum need that complimentarity for maximum development. development. development. Monogamy Monogamy Monogamy monogamy is probably one of the most monogamy is probably one of the most monogamy is probably one of the most important tools to our human species important tools to our human species important tools to our human species when it comes to child protection. So if when it comes to child protection. So if when it comes to child protection. So if monogamy if every relationship was monogamy if every relationship was monogamy if every relationship was monogamus if there was only one other monogamus if there was only one other monogamus if there was only one other person and it was the child's other person and it was the child's other person and it was the child's other parent in the family what does that parent in the family what does that parent in the family what does that mean? That means that statistically the mean? That means that statistically the mean? That means that statistically the child is being raised by the two adults child is being raised by the two adults child is being raised by the two adults who are the safest in their life, who are the safest in their life, who are the safest in their life, >> the most invested in their life, >> the most invested in their life, >> the most invested in their life, >> the most connected to the child. So >> the most connected to the child. So >> the most connected to the child. So this is actually so well known and so this is actually so well known and so this is actually so well known and so well understood that a child's own well understood that a child's own well understood that a child's own mother and father afford them this level

mother and father afford them this level mother and father afford them this level of protection that unrelated adults do of protection that unrelated adults do of protection that unrelated adults do not. that evolutionary biologists have a not. that evolutionary biologists have a not. that evolutionary biologists have a name for the kind of risk that children name for the kind of risk that children name for the kind of risk that children encounter when there's an unrelated encounter when there's an unrelated encounter when there's an unrelated adult in the home. And the name of that adult in the home. And the name of that adult in the home. And the name of that risk is called the Cinderella effect. risk is called the Cinderella effect. risk is called the Cinderella effect. >> And it is the objective, measurable, >> And it is the objective, measurable, >> And it is the objective, measurable, diminished input and protection that a diminished input and protection that a diminished input and protection that a stepfather or a mother's boyfriend or a stepfather or a mother's boyfriend or a stepfather or a mother's boyfriend or a father's boyfriend or a father's father's boyfriend or a father's father's boyfriend or a father's girlfriend is going to bring to the girlfriend is going to bring to the girlfriend is going to bring to the home. That's not to say that all home. That's not to say that all home. That's not to say that all stepparents are abusive or anything like stepparents are abusive or anything like stepparents are abusive or anything like that. We have heroic stepparents that that. We have heroic stepparents that that. We have heroic stepparents that are doing what they can to fill the gap are doing what they can to fill the gap are doing what they can to fill the gap left by a negligent biological parent. left by a negligent biological parent. left by a negligent biological parent. But on a populationwide level, unrelated But on a populationwide level, unrelated But on a populationwide level, unrelated adults in the home will always increase adults in the home will always increase adults in the home will always increase risk of abuse and neglect. And in the risk of abuse and neglect. And in the risk of abuse and neglect. And in the case of a cohabiting man, statistically, case of a cohabiting man, statistically, case of a cohabiting man, statistically, again, there's heroic stepfathers, but again, there's heroic stepfathers, but again, there's heroic stepfathers, but statistically an unrelated man living statistically an unrelated man living statistically an unrelated man living with a child left to care for the child with a child left to care for the child with a child left to care for the child alone is the most dangerous person in a alone is the most dangerous person in a alone is the most dangerous person in a child's life. M child's life. M child's life. M >> so if you want to forsake monogamy you >> so if you want to forsake monogamy you >> so if you want to forsake monogamy you are just swapping out child protection are just swapping out child protection are just swapping out child protection [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> and then third permanence children need >> and then third permanence children need >> and then third permanence children need that complimentarity they need that that complimentarity they need that that complimentarity they need that maximized development they need that maximized development they need that maximized development they need that safety the protection the investment safety the protection the investment safety the protection the investment they don't need it for two months they they don't need it for two months they they don't need it for two months they don't need it for two years they don't don't need it for two years they don't don't need it for two years they don't need it for 12 years they need it all need it for 12 years they need it all need it for 12 years they need it all their life so we can look at this their life so we can look at this their life so we can look at this beautiful picture that God has given for beautiful picture that God has given for beautiful picture that God has given for his definition of marriage and we see his definition of marriage and we see his definition of marriage and we see that that that that tells us what God says about that tells us what God says about that tells us what God says about marriage marriage, but the natural law

marriage marriage, but the natural law marriage marriage, but the natural law and social science tell us why and social science tell us why and social science tell us why >> his definition is so good. >> his definition is so good. >> his definition is so good. >> So those are the non-negotiables of the >> So those are the non-negotiables of the >> So those are the non-negotiables of the human child. human child. human child. >> They come from a man and woman. That man >> They come from a man and woman. That man >> They come from a man and woman. That man and woman are going to be the safest, and woman are going to be the safest, and woman are going to be the safest, most invested, most connected to them. most invested, most connected to them. most invested, most connected to them. Overall, that the male parent and the Overall, that the male parent and the Overall, that the male parent and the female parent are going to do things for female parent are going to do things for female parent are going to do things for children that generic love is not going children that generic love is not going children that generic love is not going to and they need them all their life. So to and they need them all their life. So to and they need them all their life. So those are not going to change. Those those are not going to change. Those those are not going to change. Those things will not change. Regardless of things will not change. Regardless of things will not change. Regardless of what five Supreme Court justices say, what five Supreme Court justices say, what five Supreme Court justices say, regardless of whether or not you wear a regardless of whether or not you wear a regardless of whether or not you wear a t-shirt that says love makes a family, t-shirt that says love makes a family, t-shirt that says love makes a family, regardless of how we tinker with regardless of how we tinker with regardless of how we tinker with children in a laboratory, these are children in a laboratory, these are children in a laboratory, these are non-negotiable biological facts of the non-negotiable biological facts of the non-negotiable biological facts of the human family that God human family that God human family that God >> ordained and designed. And they will not >> ordained and designed. And they will not >> ordained and designed. And they will not pass away pass away pass away >> until human nature changes, until human >> until human nature changes, until human >> until human nature changes, until human nature passes away. And that doesn't nature passes away. And that doesn't nature passes away. And that doesn't seem to be in the cards. That's right. seem to be in the cards. That's right. seem to be in the cards. That's right. >> Right. We're going to be restored. We're >> Right. We're going to be restored. We're >> Right. We're going to be restored. We're going to be redeemed. about we are going to be redeemed. about we are going to be redeemed. about we are human. These are human realities. So human. These are human realities. So human. These are human realities. So once you understand those once you understand those once you understand those non-negotiables of the human child, it non-negotiables of the human child, it non-negotiables of the human child, it gives you the foundation to respond to gives you the foundation to respond to gives you the foundation to respond to all these other questions about marriage all these other questions about marriage all these other questions about marriage and family.

and family. and family. >> Katie, that is fantastic. Honestly, so >> Katie, that is fantastic. Honestly, so >> Katie, that is fantastic. Honestly, so you said three things I want to make you said three things I want to make you said three things I want to make sure people don't don't miss it. You sure people don't don't miss it. You sure people don't don't miss it. You said one uh monogamy was one. said one uh monogamy was one. said one uh monogamy was one. >> Go ahead, repeat those three once again. >> Go ahead, repeat those three once again. >> Go ahead, repeat those three once again. >> Monogamy like married only to one other >> Monogamy like married only to one other >> Monogamy like married only to one other person. So it keeps the child's person. So it keeps the child's person. So it keeps the child's biological parents in. It keeps biological parents in. It keeps biological parents in. It keeps unrelated adults out. unrelated adults out. unrelated adults out. >> That's great. That was what was the >> That's great. That was what was the >> That's great. That was what was the other one? other one? other one? >> Complimentarity. So, it's always both >> Complimentarity. So, it's always both >> Complimentarity. So, it's always both halves of the human species, both the halves of the human species, both the halves of the human species, both the male and the female, because children male and the female, because children male and the female, because children need male love and female love, and they need male love and female love, and they need male love and female love, and they crave maternal love and paternal love. crave maternal love and paternal love. crave maternal love and paternal love. >> Dads are important, moms are important. >> Dads are important, moms are important. >> Dads are important, moms are important. It's not an either or. There's not a It's not an either or. There's not a It's not an either or. There's not a competition. It's like we need them competition. It's like we need them competition. It's like we need them both. both. both. >> Yeah, that's the third one, >> Yeah, that's the third one, >> Yeah, that's the third one, >> permanence. You need them all their >> permanence. You need them all their >> permanence. You need them all their life. life. life. >> Okay, that's great. >> Okay, that's great. >> Okay, that's great. >> And what's interesting there is a couple >> And what's interesting there is a couple >> And what's interesting there is a couple things. One is I intentionally start things. One is I intentionally start things. One is I intentionally start with the idea, the one who designs is with the idea, the one who designs is with the idea, the one who designs is the one who decides. Even if you think the one who decides. Even if you think the one who decides. Even if you think of the idea of of the idea of of the idea of >> when you use something not according to >> when you use something not according to >> when you use something not according to its design, things go wrong. its design, things go wrong. its design, things go wrong. >> Things go wrong. >> Things go wrong. >> Things go wrong. >> And so you also then talked about the >> And so you also then talked about the >> And so you also then talked about the social sciences. So there's literally social sciences. So there's literally social sciences. So there's literally data out there now that tells us and data out there now that tells us and data out there now that tells us and confirms all these things. So even if confirms all these things. So even if confirms all these things. So even if you don't believe in scripture, if you you don't believe in scripture, if you you don't believe in scripture, if you take those three things you just laid take those three things you just laid take those three things you just laid out, there are now social sciences and out, there are now social sciences and out, there are now social sciences and data that tells us when those things data that tells us when those things data that tells us when those things aren't in place, things go wrong. Right.

aren't in place, things go wrong. Right. aren't in place, things go wrong. Right. >> And it's because we're not using things >> And it's because we're not using things >> And it's because we're not using things according to God's design. When that according to God's design. When that according to God's design. When that happens, society is not going to happens, society is not going to happens, society is not going to flourish and individual couples and flourish and individual couples and flourish and individual couples and people's lives are not going to people's lives are not going to people's lives are not going to flourish. I just want to connect those flourish. I just want to connect those flourish. I just want to connect those dots because that's why we really wanted dots because that's why we really wanted dots because that's why we really wanted to start with the idea of it's God's to start with the idea of it's God's to start with the idea of it's God's design and when you don't do it design and when you don't do it design and when you don't do it according to God's design, things can go according to God's design, things can go according to God's design, things can go wrong. wrong. wrong. >> Okay. So, let me help some people here. >> Okay. So, let me help some people here. >> Okay. So, let me help some people here. Yeah, Katie. But you're you're talking Yeah, Katie. But you're you're talking Yeah, Katie. But you're you're talking about children. Honestly, uh I I just about children. Honestly, uh I I just about children. Honestly, uh I I just want to know like I just see my my best want to know like I just see my my best want to know like I just see my my best friend who's a man is in love with friend who's a man is in love with friend who's a man is in love with another man and they just want to be another man and they just want to be another man and they just want to be together because they're happy like together because they're happy like together because they're happy like they're not bothering ch they're not they're not bothering ch they're not they're not bothering ch they're not maybe they won't even have children. maybe they won't even have children. maybe they won't even have children. They just want to be happy together. Who They just want to be happy together. Who They just want to be happy together. Who are you? Like what's wrong with that? are you? Like what's wrong with that? are you? Like what's wrong with that? So we um I started writing about the So we um I started writing about the So we um I started writing about the importance of mothers and fathers in importance of mothers and fathers in importance of mothers and fathers in 2012 when my state Washington state 2012 when my state Washington state 2012 when my state Washington state started to consider gay marriage. This started to consider gay marriage. This started to consider gay marriage. This was right after President Obama evolved was right after President Obama evolved was right after President Obama evolved on the topic of marriage. He went from on the topic of marriage. He went from on the topic of marriage. He went from being a supporter of traditional being a supporter of traditional being a supporter of traditional marriage to supporting gay marriage. Um marriage to supporting gay marriage. Um marriage to supporting gay marriage. Um he had just secured his second he had just secured his second he had just secured his second re-election. And um what I heard re-election. And um what I heard re-election. And um what I heard everybody say is kids don't need moms everybody say is kids don't need moms everybody say is kids don't need moms and dads. They just need to be safe and and dads. They just need to be safe and and dads. They just need to be safe and loved and love makes a family. And um I loved and love makes a family. And um I loved and love makes a family. And um I had been working with kids. My husband had been working with kids. My husband had been working with kids. My husband and I have been in ministry together and I have been in ministry together and I have been in ministry together since we were like 19 in college. And I since we were like 19 in college. And I since we were like 19 in college. And I yeah at that point 20 years of youth yeah at that point 20 years of youth yeah at that point 20 years of youth ministry, junior high ministry, senior I ministry, junior high ministry, senior I ministry, junior high ministry, senior I had been the assistant director of the had been the assistant director of the had been the assistant director of the largest Chinese adoption agency in the largest Chinese adoption agency in the largest Chinese adoption agency in the world. Like I had a lot of close contact world. Like I had a lot of close contact world. Like I had a lot of close contact with kids. And this idea that kids don't with kids. And this idea that kids don't with kids. And this idea that kids don't need their mom and dad. um was just it need their mom and dad. um was just it need their mom and dad. um was just it incensed me because I mean like you guys incensed me because I mean like you guys incensed me because I mean like you guys I'm sure I had been in these rooms with I'm sure I had been in these rooms with I'm sure I had been in these rooms with kids at the lock the junior high lock in

kids at the lock the junior high lock in kids at the lock the junior high lock in at 3:00 a.m. when everyone's asleep and at 3:00 a.m. when everyone's asleep and at 3:00 a.m. when everyone's asleep and that one kid wants to stay up and that one kid wants to stay up and that one kid wants to stay up and they're crying and what are they talking they're crying and what are they talking they're crying and what are they talking about? Where is my father? about? Where is my father? about? Where is my father? >> Where is my mother? Why did she leave? >> Where is my mother? Why did she leave? >> Where is my mother? Why did she leave? Why did she move three states away? Um Why did she move three states away? Um Why did she move three states away? Um it creates what we call a primal wound it creates what we call a primal wound it creates what we call a primal wound when a child is rejected by their mom or when a child is rejected by their mom or when a child is rejected by their mom or dad. And thank God, you know, we can dad. And thank God, you know, we can dad. And thank God, you know, we can work to redeem that through adoption or work to redeem that through adoption or work to redeem that through adoption or other people stepping in. But what was other people stepping in. But what was other people stepping in. But what was happening in the world of gay marriage happening in the world of gay marriage happening in the world of gay marriage was normalizing the absence of a child's was normalizing the absence of a child's was normalizing the absence of a child's mother or father in the name of mother or father in the name of mother or father in the name of progress. progress. progress. >> Not a child losing their mother or >> Not a child losing their mother or >> Not a child losing their mother or father to tragedy or death, but actually father to tragedy or death, but actually father to tragedy or death, but actually saying it's good. It's good that they saying it's good. It's good that they saying it's good. It's good that they don't have their mother and father. Um, don't have their mother and father. Um, don't have their mother and father. Um, so this actually was one of the main so this actually was one of the main so this actually was one of the main vectors, one of the main arguments for vectors, one of the main arguments for vectors, one of the main arguments for legalizing gay marriage. legalizing gay marriage. legalizing gay marriage. >> Um, and sure there was some of this >> Um, and sure there was some of this >> Um, and sure there was some of this libertarian like, you know, just stay libertarian like, you know, just stay libertarian like, you know, just stay out of my bedroom kind of stuff. Um, but out of my bedroom kind of stuff. Um, but out of my bedroom kind of stuff. Um, but the truth is that in 2015, I submitted the truth is that in 2015, I submitted the truth is that in 2015, I submitted an amikas brief to the Supreme Court in an amikas brief to the Supreme Court in an amikas brief to the Supreme Court in the Oberfeld decision alongside a woman the Oberfeld decision alongside a woman the Oberfeld decision alongside a woman that had been raised by two mothers. that had been raised by two mothers. that had been raised by two mothers. >> Explain what that is for somebody that >> Explain what that is for somebody that >> Explain what that is for somebody that doesn't know. doesn't know. doesn't know. >> It's a friend of the court brief. It's >> It's a friend of the court brief. It's >> It's a friend of the court brief. It's something that anybody can submit uh something that anybody can submit uh something that anybody can submit uh somebody saying, "I have something that somebody saying, "I have something that somebody saying, "I have something that the court should probably know about the the court should probably know about the the court should probably know about the case that they are considering."

case that they are considering." case that they are considering." >> And so my mom is in a relationship with >> And so my mom is in a relationship with >> And so my mom is in a relationship with her partner. They've been together since her partner. They've been together since her partner. They've been together since I was 10. My parents divorced. So, um, I was 10. My parents divorced. So, um, I was 10. My parents divorced. So, um, I'm not a a fatherless girl with two I'm not a a fatherless girl with two I'm not a a fatherless girl with two mothers. I'm just a woman who loves her mothers. I'm just a woman who loves her mothers. I'm just a woman who loves her mother and her mother's partner. Um, but mother and her mother's partner. Um, but mother and her mother's partner. Um, but I've been kind of in this LGBT world I've been kind of in this LGBT world I've been kind of in this LGBT world almost all of my life. So, I co-authored almost all of my life. So, I co-authored almost all of my life. So, I co-authored a brief with a woman who had exclusively a brief with a woman who had exclusively a brief with a woman who had exclusively been raised by two mothers. And we just been raised by two mothers. And we just been raised by two mothers. And we just filled it with the stories of 30 filled it with the stories of 30 filled it with the stories of 30 children that were raised by same-sex children that were raised by same-sex children that were raised by same-sex couples talking about how if you couples talking about how if you couples talking about how if you redefine marriage, you will redefine redefine marriage, you will redefine redefine marriage, you will redefine parenthood. parenthood. parenthood. >> If you make husbands and wives optional >> If you make husbands and wives optional >> If you make husbands and wives optional in marriage, mothers and fathers will in marriage, mothers and fathers will in marriage, mothers and fathers will become optional in parenting. And that become optional in parenting. And that become optional in parenting. And that is bad for children. Here's 30 children is bad for children. Here's 30 children is bad for children. Here's 30 children who have been raised by same-sex who have been raised by same-sex who have been raised by same-sex couples. Look at them. Look at their couples. Look at them. Look at their couples. Look at them. Look at their identity struggles. Look at how identity struggles. Look at how identity struggles. Look at how disconnected they are from their disconnected they are from their disconnected they are from their non-biological parent. Look at how non-biological parent. Look at how non-biological parent. Look at how there's so much instability in their there's so much instability in their there's so much instability in their life. Look at how they hunger for male life. Look at how they hunger for male life. Look at how they hunger for male attention or female attention. Look at attention or female attention. Look at attention or female attention. Look at the vulnerable places they've put the vulnerable places they've put the vulnerable places they've put themselves in to get the missing male themselves in to get the missing male themselves in to get the missing male attention or female attention that they attention or female attention that they attention or female attention that they desperately wanted. And so while there desperately wanted. And so while there desperately wanted. And so while there was a lot of narrative that this is just was a lot of narrative that this is just was a lot of narrative that this is just about adult decision, adult behavior, about adult decision, adult behavior, about adult decision, adult behavior, a lot of us were warning about the fact a lot of us were warning about the fact a lot of us were warning about the fact that redefining the institution of that redefining the institution of that redefining the institution of marriage will require freeing children, marriage will require freeing children, marriage will require freeing children, freeing children from a connection to freeing children from a connection to freeing children from a connection to their own mother and father. And that their own mother and father. And that their own mother and father. And that has happened. So we've got eight we've has happened. So we've got eight we've has happened. So we've got eight we've got 11 years of receipts for this. We got 11 years of receipts for this. We got 11 years of receipts for this. We have seen over the last 11 years how gay have seen over the last 11 years how gay have seen over the last 11 years how gay marriage has redefined parenthood. How

marriage has redefined parenthood. How marriage has redefined parenthood. How children no longer have as much of a children no longer have as much of a children no longer have as much of a claim to their own mother and father and claim to their own mother and father and claim to their own mother and father and in some states and countries no claim at in some states and countries no claim at in some states and countries no claim at all to them. So even if some same-sex all to them. So even if some same-sex all to them. So even if some same-sex couples choose not to have children, the couples choose not to have children, the couples choose not to have children, the law in the name of being uh law in the name of being uh law in the name of being uh constitutional. So what is it that constitutional. So what is it that constitutional. So what is it that Justice Kennedy said in his majority Justice Kennedy said in his majority Justice Kennedy said in his majority opinion in that Oberfeld decision? He opinion in that Oberfeld decision? He opinion in that Oberfeld decision? He said same-sex couples in the name of said same-sex couples in the name of said same-sex couples in the name of non-discrimination need to be afforded non-discrimination need to be afforded non-discrimination need to be afforded the full constellation of benefits of the full constellation of benefits of the full constellation of benefits of marriage. One of those benefits is marriage. One of those benefits is marriage. One of those benefits is children. [clears throat] children. [clears throat] children. [clears throat] >> So it was always part of the plan to go >> So it was always part of the plan to go >> So it was always part of the plan to go directly from marriage to now we are directly from marriage to now we are directly from marriage to now we are going to redefine parenthood. So going to redefine parenthood. So going to redefine parenthood. So >> which means that if you are in a uh >> which means that if you are in a uh >> which means that if you are in a uh same-sex relationship in a now quote same-sex relationship in a now quote same-sex relationship in a now quote unquote gay marriage uh gay marriage you unquote gay marriage uh gay marriage you unquote gay marriage uh gay marriage you are entitled to children is what you're are entitled to children is what you're are entitled to children is what you're saying. That means that the law is now saying. That means that the law is now saying. That means that the law is now reorienting itself around your desire to reorienting itself around your desire to reorienting itself around your desire to access somebody else's kids if you want access somebody else's kids if you want access somebody else's kids if you want them. Yes, that's exactly what that them. Yes, that's exactly what that them. Yes, that's exactly what that means. And even if a lot of same-sex means. And even if a lot of same-sex means. And even if a lot of same-sex couples choose not to have children, but couples choose not to have children, but couples choose not to have children, but the very existence of gay marriage means the very existence of gay marriage means the very existence of gay marriage means that the law had to reorient around an that the law had to reorient around an that the law had to reorient around an institution that was no longer institution that was no longer institution that was no longer procreative, but centered around adult procreative, but centered around adult procreative, but centered around adult validation.

validation. validation. >> Okay. So on that note, um if somebody >> Okay. So on that note, um if somebody >> Okay. So on that note, um if somebody were to say, "Yeah, but but don't they were to say, "Yeah, but but don't they were to say, "Yeah, but but don't they have don't shouldn't they have the same have don't shouldn't they have the same have don't shouldn't they have the same rights that heterosexual couples have?" rights that heterosexual couples have?" rights that heterosexual couples have?" Like you're saying sounds like you're Like you're saying sounds like you're Like you're saying sounds like you're saying they don't, but it sounds we saying they don't, but it sounds we saying they don't, but it sounds we should have the same rights, right? Gay should have the same rights, right? Gay should have the same rights, right? Gay couples and heterosexual couples. What couples and heterosexual couples. What couples and heterosexual couples. What would you say? would you say? would you say? >> So the very first book that I >> So the very first book that I >> So the very first book that I co-authored with Stacy Manning is called co-authored with Stacy Manning is called co-authored with Stacy Manning is called Done Before Us: Why We Need a Global Done Before Us: Why We Need a Global Done Before Us: Why We Need a Global Children's Rights Movement. So it's very Children's Rights Movement. So it's very Children's Rights Movement. So it's very very important to properly understand very important to properly understand very important to properly understand what a right is. Conveniently, anything what a right is. Conveniently, anything what a right is. Conveniently, anything that an adult really, really wants, they that an adult really, really wants, they that an adult really, really wants, they will frame as a right. will frame as a right. will frame as a right. >> I have a right to housing. I have a >> I have a right to housing. I have a >> I have a right to housing. I have a right to government funded birth right to government funded birth right to government funded birth control. Um, I have a right to control. Um, I have a right to control. Um, I have a right to parenthood. I have a right to choose. I parenthood. I have a right to choose. I parenthood. I have a right to choose. I have a right to marriage. have a right to marriage. have a right to marriage. >> But just because you want something >> But just because you want something >> But just because you want something >> doesn't make it a right. >> doesn't make it a right. >> doesn't make it a right. >> So, no, you don't have a right to >> So, no, you don't have a right to >> So, no, you don't have a right to marriage and you don't have a right to marriage and you don't have a right to marriage and you don't have a right to parenthood and you don't have a right to parenthood and you don't have a right to parenthood and you don't have a right to choose. Um, children have a right to choose. Um, children have a right to choose. Um, children have a right to life and they have a right to their life and they have a right to their life and they have a right to their mother and father. Those are fundamental mother and father. Those are fundamental mother and father. Those are fundamental natural rights. natural rights. natural rights. And if you have a pseudo right that And if you have a pseudo right that And if you have a pseudo right that conflicts with the child's fundamental conflicts with the child's fundamental conflicts with the child's fundamental natural right, there's a really good natural right, there's a really good natural right, there's a really good chance that that's actually no right at chance that that's actually no right at chance that that's actually no right at all. That's probably something else all. That's probably something else all. That's probably something else posing as a right because you are trying posing as a right because you are trying posing as a right because you are trying to manipulate and coersse government to manipulate and coersse government to manipulate and coersse government powers to get behind something that you powers to get behind something that you powers to get behind something that you want at the expense of the most want at the expense of the most want at the expense of the most vulnerable. [snorts] vulnerable. [snorts] vulnerable. [snorts] >> So we spend some time in the first >> So we spend some time in the first >> So we spend some time in the first chapter of that book kind of outlining chapter of that book kind of outlining chapter of that book kind of outlining criteria for what makes something a criteria for what makes something a criteria for what makes something a natural right. And um when it comes to natural right. And um when it comes to natural right. And um when it comes to somebody marrying another person of the somebody marrying another person of the somebody marrying another person of the same sex, the answer is no.

same sex, the answer is no. same sex, the answer is no. >> So just so just because you want it >> So just so just because you want it >> So just so just because you want it doesn't mean you have the right to get doesn't mean you have the right to get doesn't mean you have the right to get it. it. it. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and some of these things that we >> And and some of these things that we >> And and some of these things that we want are important. They may be a very want are important. They may be a very want are important. They may be a very strong drive. Sometimes you might even strong drive. Sometimes you might even strong drive. Sometimes you might even need it to survive like shelter or food, need it to survive like shelter or food, need it to survive like shelter or food, but that does not make it a natural but that does not make it a natural but that does not make it a natural right. If something is a natural right, right. If something is a natural right, right. If something is a natural right, that means the government must organize that means the government must organize that means the government must organize around and protect it at all costs and around and protect it at all costs and around and protect it at all costs and sometimes deliver it to you. sometimes deliver it to you. sometimes deliver it to you. >> Okay? So that's that's not a right. >> Okay? So that's that's not a right. >> Okay? So that's that's not a right. >> And even to maybe connect some dots for >> And even to maybe connect some dots for >> And even to maybe connect some dots for people, maybe for a lot of people this people, maybe for a lot of people this people, maybe for a lot of people this probably the first time they're hearing probably the first time they're hearing probably the first time they're hearing this line of argumentation. So even this line of argumentation. So even this line of argumentation. So even connecting the dots for people cuz I connecting the dots for people cuz I connecting the dots for people cuz I think one of your original questions think one of your original questions think one of your original questions was, "Man, can't just two people love was, "Man, can't just two people love was, "Man, can't just two people love each other." Sounds like you're saying, each other." Sounds like you're saying, each other." Sounds like you're saying, "Hey, we actually should choose a "Hey, we actually should choose a "Hey, we actually should choose a totally different angle totally different angle totally different angle >> because I've even thought this for a >> because I've even thought this for a >> because I've even thought this for a while. If Christians only ever talk while. If Christians only ever talk while. If Christians only ever talk about the idea of love is if that's the about the idea of love is if that's the about the idea of love is if that's the main purpose of marriage, we're going to main purpose of marriage, we're going to main purpose of marriage, we're going to be in an endless cycle of back and forth be in an endless cycle of back and forth be in an endless cycle of back and forth with people." It sounds like you're with people." It sounds like you're with people." It sounds like you're advocating for saying no, let's actually advocating for saying no, let's actually advocating for saying no, let's actually change the venue of this discussion change the venue of this discussion change the venue of this discussion because and I know that not everyone because and I know that not everyone because and I know that not everyone we're talking to would obviously agree. we're talking to would obviously agree. we're talking to would obviously agree. Most people witness on this, but it's Most people witness on this, but it's Most people witness on this, but it's interesting that I'm just opened up interesting that I'm just opened up interesting that I'm just opened up Genesis again and literally right it Genesis again and literally right it Genesis again and literally right it says gra so God created man his own says gra so God created man his own says gra so God created man his own image in the image of God he created image in the image of God he created image in the image of God he created male and female he created them. What is male and female he created them. What is male and female he created them. What is the first thing he says? Now be fruitful the first thing he says? Now be fruitful the first thing he says? Now be fruitful and multiply. So marriage yes as we laid and multiply. So marriage yes as we laid and multiply. So marriage yes as we laid out earlier is for sure for faithful and out earlier is for sure for faithful and out earlier is for sure for faithful and loving companionship. That is part of loving companionship. That is part of loving companionship. That is part of marriage but it's not the main or even marriage but it's not the main or even marriage but it's not the main or even only part of marriage. In fact, the only part of marriage. In fact, the only part of marriage. In fact, the first thing God does is he says the first thing God does is he says the first thing God does is he says the purpose of marriage is to bear children.

purpose of marriage is to bear children. purpose of marriage is to bear children. At least it's one of the main things of At least it's one of the main things of At least it's one of the main things of marriage. And so you're basically marriage. And so you're basically marriage. And so you're basically saying, "Hey, let's move the venue to saying, "Hey, let's move the venue to saying, "Hey, let's move the venue to this discussion." Am I am I interpreting this discussion." Am I am I interpreting this discussion." Am I am I interpreting you correctly? you correctly? you correctly? >> So that is 100% true. Um and I will take >> So that is 100% true. Um and I will take >> So that is 100% true. Um and I will take it even a step further. But first, we it even a step further. But first, we it even a step further. But first, we will talk about Malachi. Yeah. will talk about Malachi. Yeah. will talk about Malachi. Yeah. >> Um because what was going on in Malachi >> Um because what was going on in Malachi >> Um because what was going on in Malachi is, you know, they're like, "Why don't is, you know, they're like, "Why don't is, you know, they're like, "Why don't you hear our prayers, Lord? Why don't you hear our prayers, Lord? Why don't you hear our prayers, Lord? Why don't you love it? Why won't you listen to you love it? Why won't you listen to you love it? Why won't you listen to us?" And he's like, "Because you offend us?" And he's like, "Because you offend us?" And he's like, "Because you offend me, [laughter] me, [laughter] me, [laughter] >> right? It is because you have wronged >> right? It is because you have wronged >> right? It is because you have wronged me." me." me." we how us how have we wronged you? And we how us how have we wronged you? And we how us how have we wronged you? And he's like, you're bringing me the trash he's like, you're bringing me the trash he's like, you're bringing me the trash offerings. offerings. offerings. >> But one of the things he said is >> But one of the things he said is >> But one of the things he said is >> you're divorcing the wife of your youth >> you're divorcing the wife of your youth >> you're divorcing the wife of your youth in essence to marry the trophy wife. in essence to marry the trophy wife. in essence to marry the trophy wife. >> Right? And he was speaking specifically >> Right? And he was speaking specifically >> Right? And he was speaking specifically to the religious leaders, right? to the religious leaders, right? to the religious leaders, right? [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> And then he gives an explanation for and >> And then he gives an explanation for and >> And then he gives an explanation for and this is the famous passage where he this is the famous passage where he this is the famous passage where he says, "I hate divorce." says, "I hate divorce." says, "I hate divorce." >> Is where God says, "I hate divorce." And >> Is where God says, "I hate divorce." And >> Is where God says, "I hate divorce." And then he says, "In spirit and flesh, they then he says, "In spirit and flesh, they then he says, "In spirit and flesh, they are one." Right? And why has God made are one." Right? And why has God made are one." Right? And why has God made them one? What was the one God seeking? them one? What was the one God seeking? them one? What was the one God seeking? >> Do you know what his answer to his own >> Do you know what his answer to his own >> Do you know what his answer to his own question is? question is? question is? >> Go ahead. >> Go ahead. >> Go ahead. >> Godly offspring. >> Godly offspring. >> Godly offspring. >> Why is it that he is so offended when >> Why is it that he is so offended when >> Why is it that he is so offended when you throw off I mean there's there are you throw off I mean there's there are you throw off I mean there's there are there can be times for legitimate there can be times for legitimate there can be times for legitimate reasons for a marriage to end.

reasons for a marriage to end. reasons for a marriage to end. >> But that is not what was happening in >> But that is not what was happening in >> But that is not what was happening in Malachi. That was not necessarily what Malachi. That was not necessarily what Malachi. That was not necessarily what the Pharisees were asking Jesus when the Pharisees were asking Jesus when the Pharisees were asking Jesus when they were saying when can a man get they were saying when can a man get they were saying when can a man get divorced? There is something that God divorced? There is something that God divorced? There is something that God seeks from marriage and it is godly seeks from marriage and it is godly seeks from marriage and it is godly >> offspring. >> offspring. >> offspring. that has always been a major focus of that has always been a major focus of that has always been a major focus of why God is advancing this critical why God is advancing this critical why God is advancing this critical institution. The offspring, the institution. The offspring, the institution. The offspring, the offspring matter. [clears throat] offspring matter. [clears throat] offspring matter. [clears throat] >> So there have been um authors and there >> So there have been um authors and there >> So there have been um authors and there have been even prominent Christian have been even prominent Christian have been even prominent Christian teachers that have not included this teachers that have not included this teachers that have not included this aspect of fruitfulness aspect of fruitfulness aspect of fruitfulness >> and procreation when they think about >> and procreation when they think about >> and procreation when they think about the definition of marriage. God always the definition of marriage. God always the definition of marriage. God always includes it. It's always central for includes it. It's always central for includes it. It's always central for him. But when it comes to Christians him. But when it comes to Christians him. But when it comes to Christians entering the public square and wanting entering the public square and wanting entering the public square and wanting to talk about why marriage matters, I to talk about why marriage matters, I to talk about why marriage matters, I would say yes, you want to talk about would say yes, you want to talk about would say yes, you want to talk about permanence, complimentarity, and permanence, complimentarity, and permanence, complimentarity, and monogamy. That's all really important. monogamy. That's all really important. monogamy. That's all really important. But I would say the bigger factor for But I would say the bigger factor for But I would say the bigger factor for Christians is God's people in the Old Christians is God's people in the Old Christians is God's people in the Old Testament or the New Testament or Testament or the New Testament or Testament or the New Testament or throughout the pages of church history, throughout the pages of church history, throughout the pages of church history, we have interfaced with with all manner we have interfaced with with all manner we have interfaced with with all manner of hostile religions and cultures um in of hostile religions and cultures um in of hostile religions and cultures um in the same way.

the same way. the same way. And that is a posture of child And that is a posture of child And that is a posture of child protection. protection. protection. >> There's probably 39 references in the >> There's probably 39 references in the >> There's probably 39 references in the Old Testament about the mandate to Old Testament about the mandate to Old Testament about the mandate to protect the fatherless. protect the fatherless. protect the fatherless. >> You know, in the New Testament, it says, >> You know, in the New Testament, it says, >> You know, in the New Testament, it says, you want to test your religion. You want you want to test your religion. You want you want to test your religion. You want to know what's pure and undefiled. to know what's pure and undefiled. to know what's pure and undefiled. >> Watch yourself, care for orphans and >> Watch yourself, care for orphans and >> Watch yourself, care for orphans and widows. widows. widows. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, there's always been this aspect of >> So, there's always been this aspect of >> So, there's always been this aspect of if there is a vulnerable child, it is if there is a vulnerable child, it is if there is a vulnerable child, it is your job to protect them. Yeah, your job to protect them. Yeah, your job to protect them. Yeah, >> that is the motiv that should be the >> that is the motiv that should be the >> that is the motiv that should be the motivator for Christians when it comes motivator for Christians when it comes motivator for Christians when it comes to interfacing with and engaging with to interfacing with and engaging with to interfacing with and engaging with culture, not to be welcoming and culture, not to be welcoming and culture, not to be welcoming and affirming. affirming. affirming. >> I mean, I I don't want to unnecessarily >> I mean, I I don't want to unnecessarily >> I mean, I I don't want to unnecessarily trigger. I want to love the people in my trigger. I want to love the people in my trigger. I want to love the people in my life that disagree. Never. Never at the life that disagree. Never. Never at the life that disagree. Never. Never at the expense of child protection. expense of child protection. expense of child protection. >> Never. If it means that I'm going to >> Never. If it means that I'm going to >> Never. If it means that I'm going to forsake truths that will make children forsake truths that will make children forsake truths that will make children more vulnerable. So, what's happening in more vulnerable. So, what's happening in more vulnerable. So, what's happening in the legal world postgay marriage? what's the legal world postgay marriage? what's the legal world postgay marriage? what's happening in the technological space happening in the technological space happening in the technological space around reproductive technologies and around reproductive technologies and around reproductive technologies and what's happening in the cultural what's happening in the cultural what's happening in the cultural revolution, the sexual revolution in revolution, the sexual revolution in revolution, the sexual revolution in terms of normalizing children raised terms of normalizing children raised terms of normalizing children raised apart from their mother and father. It apart from their mother and father. It apart from their mother and father. It is the exact opposite of caring for the is the exact opposite of caring for the is the exact opposite of caring for the fatherless. It is the manufacturing of fatherless. It is the manufacturing of fatherless. It is the manufacturing of the motherless and the fatherless. And the motherless and the fatherless. And the motherless and the fatherless. And that is why Christians have to get very that is why Christians have to get very that is why Christians have to get very very serious about understanding and very serious about understanding and very serious about understanding and engaging on all these marriage and engaging on all these marriage and engaging on all these marriage and family issues.

family issues. family issues. >> Yeah. But Katie, um, isn't it isn't it >> Yeah. But Katie, um, isn't it isn't it >> Yeah. But Katie, um, isn't it isn't it better for a child to be adopted by a better for a child to be adopted by a better for a child to be adopted by a gay couple than to not be adopted at gay couple than to not be adopted at gay couple than to not be adopted at all? all? all? >> Yeah. So, this is a really popular um, >> Yeah. So, this is a really popular um, >> Yeah. So, this is a really popular um, objection that people will bring. And I objection that people will bring. And I objection that people will bring. And I want to say like what what do you have want to say like what what do you have want to say like what what do you have to do to get to that question? You're to do to get to that question? You're to do to get to that question? You're appealing to a really specific edge appealing to a really specific edge appealing to a really specific edge case. So, this is a really common tactic case. So, this is a really common tactic case. So, this is a really common tactic whenever you want to overhaul some kind whenever you want to overhaul some kind whenever you want to overhaul some kind of social norm is you will bring up the of social norm is you will bring up the of social norm is you will bring up the most morally problematic example that most morally problematic example that most morally problematic example that you can find. This is why if you're in a you can find. This is why if you're in a you can find. This is why if you're in a conversation about abortion, conversation about abortion, conversation about abortion, >> somebody will say, "But what about rape >> somebody will say, "But what about rape >> somebody will say, "But what about rape and incest, right?" Which is less than and incest, right?" Which is less than and incest, right?" Which is less than 1% of the of the cases, right? And 1% of the of the cases, right? And 1% of the of the cases, right? And that's not to say that it doesn't that's not to say that it doesn't that's not to say that it doesn't deserve a response. It does. deserve a response. It does. deserve a response. It does. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But let's talk about the 99% first. >> But let's talk about the 99% first. >> But let's talk about the 99% first. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, what is the 99% as it relates to >> So, what is the 99% as it relates to >> So, what is the 99% as it relates to marriage and family? The [clears throat] marriage and family? The [clears throat] marriage and family? The [clears throat] 99% is that a child's own mother and 99% is that a child's own mother and 99% is that a child's own mother and father are going to invest more money in father are going to invest more money in father are going to invest more money in them, more time in them. They're going them, more time in them. They're going them, more time in them. They're going to be more protective of that child. to be more protective of that child. to be more protective of that child. Those children are more likely to Those children are more likely to Those children are more likely to graduate from college, have money saved graduate from college, have money saved graduate from college, have money saved for college, not go to prison, not be for college, not go to prison, not be for college, not go to prison, not be teen pregnancies, not find themselves on teen pregnancies, not find themselves on teen pregnancies, not find themselves on the street, not have behavioral issues, the street, not have behavioral issues, the street, not have behavioral issues, not deal with drugs and alcohol. They not deal with drugs and alcohol. They not deal with drugs and alcohol. They they are going to be able to form and they are going to be able to form and they are going to be able to form and maintain their own relationships if they maintain their own relationships if they maintain their own relationships if they get married in the future. Period.

get married in the future. Period. get married in the future. Period. >> You can make that case statistically >> You can make that case statistically >> You can make that case statistically from research, from the stories of from research, from the stories of from research, from the stories of children, from natural law. That is the children, from natural law. That is the children, from natural law. That is the ironclad rule. ironclad rule. ironclad rule. Now, there are sometimes when biological Now, there are sometimes when biological Now, there are sometimes when biological parents are abusive or they can't or parents are abusive or they can't or parents are abusive or they can't or should not raise their own children. um should not raise their own children. um should not raise their own children. um or tragedy strikes and that child is or tragedy strikes and that child is or tragedy strikes and that child is deprived of their own mother and father. deprived of their own mother and father. deprived of their own mother and father. In those cases, we mourn. In those cases, we mourn. In those cases, we mourn. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And we seek to mend the wound of the >> And we seek to mend the wound of the >> And we seek to mend the wound of the children who have experienced that kind children who have experienced that kind children who have experienced that kind of parental loss. of parental loss. of parental loss. And as an adoptive mom of a child who And as an adoptive mom of a child who And as an adoptive mom of a child who spent his first two years of life in an spent his first two years of life in an spent his first two years of life in an institution, um I will say that all institution, um I will say that all institution, um I will say that all children need a mother and father. But children need a mother and father. But children need a mother and father. But children who have undergone the children who have undergone the children who have undergone the significant trauma of mother or father significant trauma of mother or father significant trauma of mother or father love and institutionalization and maybe love and institutionalization and maybe love and institutionalization and maybe a revolving door of foster homes, they a revolving door of foster homes, they a revolving door of foster homes, they might need a mother and a father more might need a mother and a father more might need a mother and a father more than anyone else. than anyone else. than anyone else. >> They especially need that soft, >> They especially need that soft, >> They especially need that soft, nurturing, understanding motherly nurturing, understanding motherly nurturing, understanding motherly presence and the father that says the presence and the father that says the presence and the father that says the answer is no. I said no. You can run answer is no. I said no. You can run answer is no. I said no. You can run into me and you can beat my chest as into me and you can beat my chest as into me and you can beat my chest as much as you want. The answer is still much as you want. The answer is still much as you want. The answer is still no. So even those kids that are in that no. So even those kids that are in that no. So even those kids that are in that challenging situation, challenging situation, challenging situation, the answer is not we'll give them the answer is not we'll give them the answer is not we'll give them same-sex parents. The answer is more same-sex parents. The answer is more same-sex parents. The answer is more heterosexual couples that understand it heterosexual couples that understand it heterosexual couples that understand it is their duty is their duty is their duty >> to care for the vulnerable need to step >> to care for the vulnerable need to step >> to care for the vulnerable need to step in.

in. in. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And adopt kids. >> And adopt kids. >> And adopt kids. There are yearslong waiting lists for There are yearslong waiting lists for There are yearslong waiting lists for white drug-free infants white drug-free infants white drug-free infants >> when it comes to adopting. There's not >> when it comes to adopting. There's not >> when it comes to adopting. There's not enough heterosexual couples that want enough heterosexual couples that want enough heterosexual couples that want the sibling group, the older kid, the the sibling group, the older kid, the the sibling group, the older kid, the disabled child. disabled child. disabled child. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, that's when I say that the world of >> So, that's when I say that the world of >> So, that's when I say that the world of children's rights insists that all children's rights insists that all children's rights insists that all adults do g do hard things, that's what adults do g do hard things, that's what adults do g do hard things, that's what I mean. Some of you out there that are I mean. Some of you out there that are I mean. Some of you out there that are listening have great marriages, no listening have great marriages, no listening have great marriages, no fertility problems. You're in strong fertility problems. You're in strong fertility problems. You're in strong relationships. Maybe the way that you, relationships. Maybe the way that you, relationships. Maybe the way that you, the strong, are going to sacrifice for the strong, are going to sacrifice for the strong, are going to sacrifice for the weak is being called to bring a the weak is being called to bring a the weak is being called to bring a child into your home that doesn't have child into your home that doesn't have child into your home that doesn't have parents. parents. parents. >> So once you say all that, is it better >> So once you say all that, is it better >> So once you say all that, is it better for a child to remain in an orphanage for a child to remain in an orphanage for a child to remain in an orphanage overseas, be in the foster care turn overseas, be in the foster care turn overseas, be in the foster care turn rather than placed with a same-sex rather than placed with a same-sex rather than placed with a same-sex couple? Um, there might be times where a couple? Um, there might be times where a couple? Um, there might be times where a same-sex couple is a better fit for a same-sex couple is a better fit for a same-sex couple is a better fit for a child than a foster care situation, but child than a foster care situation, but child than a foster care situation, but those are decisions that need to be made those are decisions that need to be made those are decisions that need to be made individually by a social worker who's individually by a social worker who's individually by a social worker who's seeing the whole seeing the whole seeing the whole the whole landscape. You know, I know a the whole landscape. You know, I know a the whole landscape. You know, I know a child who was deaf and was adopted by a child who was deaf and was adopted by a child who was deaf and was adopted by a single deaf mother.

single deaf mother. single deaf mother. >> So, that's a situation where the child's >> So, that's a situation where the child's >> So, that's a situation where the child's not having their ideal met, but based on not having their ideal met, but based on not having their ideal met, but based on all the different options, that was the all the different options, that was the all the different options, that was the best fit for the child, right? And what best fit for the child, right? And what best fit for the child, right? And what is adoption? Adoption adoption is not a is adoption? Adoption adoption is not a is adoption? Adoption adoption is not a delivery system so that infertile delivery system so that infertile delivery system so that infertile couples or same-sex couples can have a couples or same-sex couples can have a couples or same-sex couples can have a family. Adoption is an institution family. Adoption is an institution family. Adoption is an institution centered around the best interest of the centered around the best interest of the centered around the best interest of the child. They are the client. If adoption child. They are the client. If adoption child. They are the client. If adoption happens properly, the child will always happens properly, the child will always happens properly, the child will always get what they need. But not every adult get what they need. But not every adult get what they need. But not every adult is going to get what they want. is going to get what they want. is going to get what they want. >> So even with adoption, we have to change >> So even with adoption, we have to change >> So even with adoption, we have to change the way we think about it. the way we think about it. the way we think about it. >> This is not about adults completing >> This is not about adults completing >> This is not about adults completing their family. This is about children's their family. This is about children's their family. This is about children's needs being met. and usually adults needs being met. and usually adults needs being met. and usually adults bearing what is often a lifelong burden. bearing what is often a lifelong burden. bearing what is often a lifelong burden. >> I did a little research about this and >> I did a little research about this and >> I did a little research about this and uh actually kind of surprised uh uh actually kind of surprised uh uh actually kind of surprised uh research, some research actually shows research, some research actually shows research, some research actually shows that children that are adopted by that children that are adopted by that children that are adopted by same-sex couples do well in light of same-sex couples do well in light of same-sex couples do well in light of that research, Katie, why oppose it? So, that research, Katie, why oppose it? So, that research, Katie, why oppose it? So, you can be [clears throat] I guarantee you can be [clears throat] I guarantee you can be [clears throat] I guarantee you won't be in a conversation with you won't be in a conversation with you won't be in a conversation with somebody talking about gay marriage and somebody talking about gay marriage and somebody talking about gay marriage and gay parenting until somebody's like gay parenting until somebody's like gay parenting until somebody's like outcomes for children with same-sex outcomes for children with same-sex outcomes for children with same-sex parents. And up will pop um a return parents. And up will pop um a return parents. And up will pop um a return from I think Cornell or Colombia that from I think Cornell or Colombia that from I think Cornell or Colombia that says 75 out of 79 studies show that says 75 out of 79 studies show that says 75 out of 79 studies show that children with gay parents fare no children with gay parents fare no children with gay parents fare no different or even better than kids different or even better than kids different or even better than kids raised by heterosexual parents. And raised by heterosexual parents. And raised by heterosexual parents. And they'll say, "See, all kids need is they'll say, "See, all kids need is they'll say, "See, all kids need is love."

love." love." >> So, I looked at every single study >> So, I looked at every single study >> So, I looked at every single study there. I looked at all 75 of those there. I looked at all 75 of those there. I looked at all 75 of those studies and the other four as well. And studies and the other four as well. And studies and the other four as well. And what you see when you actually look at what you see when you actually look at what you see when you actually look at it is you can create an awful lot of it is you can create an awful lot of it is you can create an awful lot of trash studies really fast. And that's trash studies really fast. And that's trash studies really fast. And that's what it was. It was trash studies. So I what it was. It was trash studies. So I what it was. It was trash studies. So I often like to pose it this way. Whenever often like to pose it this way. Whenever often like to pose it this way. Whenever researchers are studying anything other researchers are studying anything other researchers are studying anything other than same-sex parenting, when they're than same-sex parenting, when they're than same-sex parenting, when they're doing studies on family structure, which doing studies on family structure, which doing studies on family structure, which we've been doing since the 60s, like we've been doing since the 60s, like we've been doing since the 60s, like right when no fault divorce came on the right when no fault divorce came on the right when no fault divorce came on the scene, we really started to study what scene, we really started to study what scene, we really started to study what are what, you know, what kind of are what, you know, what kind of are what, you know, what kind of configurations can we arrange this in? configurations can we arrange this in? configurations can we arrange this in? How does how do kids do? So, we've got How does how do kids do? So, we've got How does how do kids do? So, we've got decades of family studies, family decades of family studies, family decades of family studies, family research under our belt. Whenever research under our belt. Whenever research under our belt. Whenever researchers are studying anything other researchers are studying anything other researchers are studying anything other than two men or two women raising a than two men or two women raising a than two men or two women raising a child, they all agree on three things. child, they all agree on three things. child, they all agree on three things. Number one, complimentarity matters. Number one, complimentarity matters. Number one, complimentarity matters. Mothers and fathers offer distinct and Mothers and fathers offer distinct and Mothers and fathers offer distinct and complimentary benefits to children. Dads complimentary benefits to children. Dads complimentary benefits to children. Dads do things for kids that moms don't do. do things for kids that moms don't do. do things for kids that moms don't do. Moms do things for kids that dads don't Moms do things for kids that dads don't Moms do things for kids that dads don't do. The second thing they agree on is do. The second thing they agree on is do. The second thing they agree on is that biological parents advantage that biological parents advantage that biological parents advantage children and unrelated adults put children and unrelated adults put children and unrelated adults put children at risk. Again, that is so children at risk. Again, that is so children at risk. Again, that is so airtight that the evolutionary airtight that the evolutionary airtight that the evolutionary biologists are like, biologists are like, biologists are like, >> "Yeah, >> "Yeah, >> "Yeah, >> open and shut." The third is that >> open and shut." The third is that >> open and shut." The third is that maternal or paternal loss harms children maternal or paternal loss harms children maternal or paternal loss harms children whether through death, divorce, whether through death, divorce, whether through death, divorce, abandonment, or third party abandonment, or third party abandonment, or third party reproduction.

reproduction. reproduction. >> There's no scenario where a child loses >> There's no scenario where a child loses >> There's no scenario where a child loses their mother and father as a population their mother and father as a population their mother and father as a population and they fare just as well even if and they fare just as well even if and they fare just as well even if they're adopted by loving heterosexual they're adopted by loving heterosexual they're adopted by loving heterosexual parents. Mhm. parents. Mhm. parents. Mhm. >> So, it's sort of the sociological >> So, it's sort of the sociological >> So, it's sort of the sociological miracle that you have 75 studies where miracle that you have 75 studies where miracle that you have 75 studies where children are always missing a biological children are always missing a biological children are always missing a biological parent, parent, parent, >> always raised by an unrelated adult, >> always raised by an unrelated adult, >> always raised by an unrelated adult, always deprived of maternal or paternal always deprived of maternal or paternal always deprived of maternal or paternal love, and have always suffered the love, and have always suffered the love, and have always suffered the trauma of mother or father loss. How do trauma of mother or father loss. How do trauma of mother or father loss. How do those kids fare no different? And the those kids fare no different? And the those kids fare no different? And the answer is all of those studies answer is all of those studies answer is all of those studies show significant bias. Wow. show significant bias. Wow. show significant bias. Wow. >> They >> They >> They didn't survey the actual kids's didn't survey the actual kids's didn't survey the actual kids's experience. They asked the parents experience. They asked the parents experience. They asked the parents themselves, "Hey, does your kid love themselves, "Hey, does your kid love themselves, "Hey, does your kid love having two moms or two dads?" having two moms or two dads?" having two moms or two dads?" >> They recruited their samples, you know, >> They recruited their samples, you know, >> They recruited their samples, you know, at an LGBTQ um, you know, activity at an LGBTQ um, you know, activity at an LGBTQ um, you know, activity center or something or a bookstore. They center or something or a bookstore. They center or something or a bookstore. They didn't find their participants at didn't find their participants at didn't find their participants at random. They tended to be small sample random. They tended to be small sample random. They tended to be small sample sizes. So, they didn't use the gold sizes. So, they didn't use the gold sizes. So, they didn't use the gold standard of the social science method.

standard of the social science method. standard of the social science method. Now, those four studies that showed Now, those four studies that showed Now, those four studies that showed significant difference, three of them significant difference, three of them significant difference, three of them did use the gold standard and they did use the gold standard and they did use the gold standard and they showed that these kids are significantly showed that these kids are significantly showed that these kids are significantly disadvantaged, especially as it relates disadvantaged, especially as it relates disadvantaged, especially as it relates to their emotional well-being, which to their emotional well-being, which to their emotional well-being, which should not be a surprise at all. That should not be a surprise at all. That should not be a surprise at all. That aligns with everything else that we know aligns with everything else that we know aligns with everything else that we know about what children need for about what children need for about what children need for development, for identity, for safety. development, for identity, for safety. development, for identity, for safety. So, um we've written a lot about this So, um we've written a lot about this So, um we've written a lot about this atm before us. We've got a Substack atm before us. We've got a Substack atm before us. We've got a Substack Before us. We've got several same-sex Before us. We've got several same-sex Before us. We've got several same-sex parenting studies um posts. So you don't parenting studies um posts. So you don't parenting studies um posts. So you don't need to go into any of those fights need to go into any of those fights need to go into any of those fights unarmed. There are really good answers unarmed. There are really good answers unarmed. There are really good answers to them. to them. to them. >> That's great. So let me let me zoom out >> That's great. So let me let me zoom out >> That's great. So let me let me zoom out before we move on to IVF for a second. before we move on to IVF for a second. before we move on to IVF for a second. So it's you know when it comes to gay So it's you know when it comes to gay So it's you know when it comes to gay marriage I think uh people will say well marriage I think uh people will say well marriage I think uh people will say well you know people say oh Katie but your you know people say oh Katie but your you know people say oh Katie but your view they're so traditional. They're view they're so traditional. They're view they're so traditional. They're they're so um and it's interesting when they're so um and it's interesting when they're so um and it's interesting when people say that because actually when people say that because actually when people say that because actually when you look at history and all the you look at history and all the you look at history and all the different cultures in history what the different cultures in history what the different cultures in history what the Bible actually says about sexuality is Bible actually says about sexuality is Bible actually says about sexuality is uh has actually stood against the uh has actually stood against the uh has actually stood against the tradition of the culture. And you see tradition of the culture. And you see tradition of the culture. And you see this pattern all over history. Let me this pattern all over history. Let me this pattern all over history. Let me just give you a couple of examples. So, just give you a couple of examples. So, just give you a couple of examples. So, for example, you kind of alluded to for example, you kind of alluded to for example, you kind of alluded to this, but polygamy. Uh, all throughout this, but polygamy. Uh, all throughout this, but polygamy. Uh, all throughout history, that's that's been the norm.

history, that's that's been the norm. history, that's that's been the norm. Uh, then comes Genesis 1 and 2 written Uh, then comes Genesis 1 and 2 written Uh, then comes Genesis 1 and 2 written 3,000 years ago. And, uh, here you see 3,000 years ago. And, uh, here you see 3,000 years ago. And, uh, here you see God saying, "Hey, it's one husband and God saying, "Hey, it's one husband and God saying, "Hey, it's one husband and one wife becoming one flesh." And then one wife becoming one flesh." And then one wife becoming one flesh." And then Jesus, you said this Katie, he Jesus, you said this Katie, he Jesus, you said this Katie, he reaffirmed this in Matthew 19. Um, that reaffirmed this in Matthew 19. Um, that reaffirmed this in Matthew 19. Um, that is not traditional. That is literally is not traditional. That is literally is not traditional. That is literally against the tradition of the day. Uh, against the tradition of the day. Uh, against the tradition of the day. Uh, homosexuality is not new. We've there's homosexuality is not new. We've there's homosexuality is not new. We've there's been homosexuality uh all throughout been homosexuality uh all throughout been homosexuality uh all throughout history, all different cultures in the history, all different cultures in the history, all different cultures in the Greco Roman world. This was it was not Greco Roman world. This was it was not Greco Roman world. This was it was not unusual for there to be samesex unusual for there to be samesex unusual for there to be samesex relationships as well. Then comes the relationships as well. Then comes the relationships as well. Then comes the Apostle Paul writes Romans chapter 1. He Apostle Paul writes Romans chapter 1. He Apostle Paul writes Romans chapter 1. He explicitly names samesex behavior explicitly names samesex behavior explicitly names samesex behavior between men and women. I believe this is between men and women. I believe this is between men and women. I believe this is the only time in uh the whole Bible the only time in uh the whole Bible the only time in uh the whole Bible where lesbianism is explicitly where lesbianism is explicitly where lesbianism is explicitly mentioned. Um again, and he talks about mentioned. Um again, and he talks about mentioned. Um again, and he talks about how those things uh ultimately they it's how those things uh ultimately they it's how those things uh ultimately they it's a rejection of God's design and God's a rejection of God's design and God's a rejection of God's design and God's glory. And in some ways it's a form of glory. And in some ways it's a form of glory. And in some ways it's a form of God's passive wrath. God's passive wrath. God's passive wrath. >> Um that is not traditional. That is >> Um that is not traditional. That is >> Um that is not traditional. That is literally against the tradition of the literally against the tradition of the literally against the tradition of the culture. And then same thing with this culture. And then same thing with this culture. And then same thing with this idea of seeing children be less. Um idea of seeing children be less. Um idea of seeing children be less. Um there's this practice in the Greor Roman there's this practice in the Greor Roman there's this practice in the Greor Roman culture called exposure which is culture called exposure which is culture called exposure which is basically like back in the day. Um if basically like back in the day. Um if basically like back in the day. Um if you had a baby and you just didn't want you had a baby and you just didn't want you had a baby and you just didn't want it, you could just dispose of it by it, you could just dispose of it by it, you could just dispose of it by basically just putting him out in the basically just putting him out in the basically just putting him out in the street. Um and when that happened, street. Um and when that happened, street. Um and when that happened, usually two things would occur. either usually two things would occur. either usually two things would occur. either the baby would die because of starvation the baby would die because of starvation the baby would die because of starvation or because of um uh somebody would take or because of um uh somebody would take or because of um uh somebody would take it or or just just just being abandoned.

it or or just just just being abandoned. it or or just just just being abandoned. >> Wild animals, >> Wild animals, >> Wild animals, >> wild animals or it would be taken to >> wild animals or it would be taken to >> wild animals or it would be taken to become a slave or be forced into become a slave or be forced into become a slave or be forced into prostitution. And again, it was actually prostitution. And again, it was actually prostitution. And again, it was actually legal and common for that to happen if legal and common for that to happen if legal and common for that to happen if there was a baby because it was unwanted there was a baby because it was unwanted there was a baby because it was unwanted or because it was a female. Um there are or because it was a female. Um there are or because it was a female. Um there are letters by Roman soldiers that have been letters by Roman soldiers that have been letters by Roman soldiers that have been found where the soldiers telling the found where the soldiers telling the found where the soldiers telling the wife, "Hey, if it's a boy, uh keep it. wife, "Hey, if it's a boy, uh keep it. wife, "Hey, if it's a boy, uh keep it. If it's a girl, dispose of it. And If it's a girl, dispose of it. And If it's a girl, dispose of it. And history tells us that Christians history tells us that Christians history tells us that Christians radically oppose this practice to the radically oppose this practice to the radically oppose this practice to the point where they're saying, "Hey, uh, point where they're saying, "Hey, uh, point where they're saying, "Hey, uh, this is actually a val, our Bible tells this is actually a val, our Bible tells this is actually a val, our Bible tells us this is a a valuable human being made us this is a a valuable human being made us this is a a valuable human being made in the image of God, and we have a in the image of God, and we have a in the image of God, and we have a responsibility to protect it." Um, responsibility to protect it." Um, responsibility to protect it." Um, Christians actively rescued these Christians actively rescued these Christians actively rescued these babies. They they picked them up. They babies. They they picked them up. They babies. They they picked them up. They adopted them. Um, they started adopted them. Um, they started adopted them. Um, they started institutions to to protect them and care institutions to to protect them and care institutions to to protect them and care for them. And then at some point for them. And then at some point for them. And then at some point infanticide was outlawed in AD 374 infanticide was outlawed in AD 374 infanticide was outlawed in AD 374 because of the strong influence of because of the strong influence of because of the strong influence of Christians pushing for that. Christians pushing for that. Christians pushing for that. >> And so here's the point. >> And so here's the point. >> And so here's the point. >> Ideas have consequences. >> Ideas have consequences. >> Ideas have consequences. >> It is a pagan idea to see children as >> It is a pagan idea to see children as >> It is a pagan idea to see children as useful or convenient or disposable or useful or convenient or disposable or useful or convenient or disposable or even valuable only if they meet certain even valuable only if they meet certain even valuable only if they meet certain conditions. And it is a Christian idea conditions. And it is a Christian idea conditions. And it is a Christian idea to treat children uh including the to treat children uh including the to treat children uh including the unborn and also pertaining uh all this unborn and also pertaining uh all this unborn and also pertaining uh all this conversation regarding uh you know IVF conversation regarding uh you know IVF conversation regarding uh you know IVF and everything we're going to talk about and everything we're going to talk about and everything we're going to talk about today as intrinsically valuable and uh today as intrinsically valuable and uh today as intrinsically valuable and uh made in the image of God and worthy of made in the image of God and worthy of made in the image of God and worthy of our protection.

our protection. our protection. >> Are there some consequence add to that? >> Are there some consequence add to that? >> Are there some consequence add to that? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. >> Okay. Because this is [clears throat] >> Okay. Because this is [clears throat] >> Okay. Because this is [clears throat] what I'm saying like Old Testament, New what I'm saying like Old Testament, New what I'm saying like Old Testament, New Testament and the pages of history. Testament and the pages of history. Testament and the pages of history. >> So threats to children have changed >> So threats to children have changed >> So threats to children have changed across cultures, across countries, across cultures, across countries, across cultures, across countries, across centuries. One of the first across centuries. One of the first across centuries. One of the first terrible examples of that was exposure. terrible examples of that was exposure. terrible examples of that was exposure. But you've got offenses against children But you've got offenses against children But you've got offenses against children in so many different ways. You know, um in so many different ways. You know, um in so many different ways. You know, um footbinding, footbinding in China was footbinding, footbinding in China was footbinding, footbinding in China was rampant and um the Christian rampant and um the Christian rampant and um the Christian missionaries hit the shores and they're missionaries hit the shores and they're missionaries hit the shores and they're like, "What is going?" And they were like, "What is going?" And they were like, "What is going?" And they were like, "No, not on get off our lawn." I like, "No, not on get off our lawn." I like, "No, not on get off our lawn." I mean, like they literally like we are mean, like they literally like we are mean, like they literally like we are going to do something about this because going to do something about this because going to do something about this because it was cruel, right? It literally was um it was cruel, right? It literally was um it was cruel, right? It literally was um mutilation of children, right? In the mutilation of children, right? In the mutilation of children, right? In the name of often, you know, improving their name of often, you know, improving their name of often, you know, improving their marriage prospects. And so the Christian marriage prospects. And so the Christian marriage prospects. And so the Christian missionaries um they started schools and missionaries um they started schools and missionaries um they started schools and they said anybody can come in the they said anybody can come in the they said anybody can come in the schools, boys or girls, but schools, boys or girls, but schools, boys or girls, but [clears throat] only girls with natural [clears throat] only girls with natural [clears throat] only girls with natural feet are going to be able to come. feet are going to be able to come. feet are going to be able to come. Unfortunately, bound feet's not going to Unfortunately, bound feet's not going to Unfortunately, bound feet's not going to work for us. work for us. work for us. >> And they started campaigns against bound >> And they started campaigns against bound >> And they started campaigns against bound feet. And within a a century, bound feet feet. And within a a century, bound feet feet. And within a a century, bound feet were completely eradicated. They changed were completely eradicated. They changed were completely eradicated. They changed the entire society because they brought the entire society because they brought the entire society because they brought these child dignifying principles to the these child dignifying principles to the these child dignifying principles to the four.

four. four. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Christians around the world were the >> Christians around the world were the >> Christians around the world were the first to start and then maintain first to start and then maintain first to start and then maintain orphanages in every country. Y right. orphanages in every country. Y right. orphanages in every country. Y right. Unwanted children have been a part of Unwanted children have been a part of Unwanted children have been a part of nearly every culture and it was the nearly every culture and it was the nearly every culture and it was the Christians that said we will care for Christians that said we will care for Christians that said we will care for them. them. them. >> You have situations in Nigeria where >> You have situations in Nigeria where >> You have situations in Nigeria where there was a tradition superstition that there was a tradition superstition that there was a tradition superstition that one of those children was probably born one of those children was probably born one of those children was probably born of a demon if they were twins. And so of a demon if they were twins. And so of a demon if they were twins. And so you couldn't tell which one was the you couldn't tell which one was the you couldn't tell which one was the demon child. So they would put both demon child. So they would put both demon child. So they would put both children in a jar in in jars in the children in a jar in in jars in the children in a jar in in jars in the jungle and leave them. And there was a jungle and leave them. And there was a jungle and leave them. And there was a Christian missionary named Mary Christian missionary named Mary Christian missionary named Mary Slesinger Mary [clears throat] Sleser Slesinger Mary [clears throat] Sleser Slesinger Mary [clears throat] Sleser who was like absolutely not. So she came who was like absolutely not. So she came who was like absolutely not. So she came in and she started protecting those in and she started protecting those in and she started protecting those children and she slowly started to children and she slowly started to children and she slowly started to change the culture. So it's like what do change the culture. So it's like what do change the culture. So it's like what do we see? we see? we see? Cultures have endless ways of Cultures have endless ways of Cultures have endless ways of victimizing children. Children have victimizing children. Children have victimizing children. Children have Christians have always had one response Christians have always had one response Christians have always had one response and that is stand between the cultural and that is stand between the cultural and that is stand between the cultural threats and the child victims. So the threats and the child victims. So the threats and the child victims. So the the threats to children are going to the threats to children are going to the threats to children are going to morph and change. But the Christian morph and change. But the Christian morph and change. But the Christian response is always the same. It is response is always the same. It is response is always the same. It is always not my millstone. No, not me. I always not my millstone. No, not me. I always not my millstone. No, not me. I have a duty to protect children. And so have a duty to protect children. And so have a duty to protect children. And so today, we're not necessarily dealing today, we're not necessarily dealing today, we're not necessarily dealing with footbinding. We're dealing with with footbinding. We're dealing with with footbinding. We're dealing with other kinds of child mutilation. We're other kinds of child mutilation. We're other kinds of child mutilation. We're not dealing with exposure in the same not dealing with exposure in the same not dealing with exposure in the same way, but we are dealing with in many way, but we are dealing with in many way, but we are dealing with in many ways the commodification of children in ways the commodification of children in ways the commodification of children in the world of reproductive technologies the world of reproductive technologies the world of reproductive technologies that we can talk about. You know, we're that we can talk about. You know, we're that we can talk about. You know, we're not talking necessarily about um not talking necessarily about um not talking necessarily about um offloading our children to pay off our offloading our children to pay off our offloading our children to pay off our debt, but we are talking about freeing debt, but we are talking about freeing debt, but we are talking about freeing children up from their mother and father children up from their mother and father children up from their mother and father to be acquired by anybody and everybody

to be acquired by anybody and everybody to be acquired by anybody and everybody with a valid contract. I mean, the with a valid contract. I mean, the with a valid contract. I mean, the threats change, the Christian response threats change, the Christian response threats change, the Christian response does not. does not. does not. >> Good. >> Good. >> Good. >> Let's uh talk about IVF. >> Let's uh talk about IVF. >> Let's uh talk about IVF. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh Pastor Paul, let's put on our pastor >> Uh Pastor Paul, let's put on our pastor >> Uh Pastor Paul, let's put on our pastor hat for a second here. Uh what's uh if hat for a second here. Uh what's uh if hat for a second here. Uh what's uh if somebody's asking, explain it for somebody's asking, explain it for somebody's asking, explain it for somebody that maybe is new to this whole somebody that maybe is new to this whole somebody that maybe is new to this whole world, there's a lot of terms here. I world, there's a lot of terms here. I world, there's a lot of terms here. I want to make sure we get them right and want to make sure we get them right and want to make sure we get them right and people understand what we're talking people understand what we're talking people understand what we're talking about here. Um actually, about here. Um actually, about here. Um actually, >> Katie, what is IVF? >> Katie, what is IVF? >> Katie, what is IVF? >> Yeah. Okay. IVF is in vitro >> Yeah. Okay. IVF is in vitro >> Yeah. Okay. IVF is in vitro fertilization. So, fertilization of a fertilization. So, fertilization of a fertilization. So, fertilization of a human. Well, actually, you can do human. Well, actually, you can do human. Well, actually, you can do fertilization of all different kinds of fertilization of all different kinds of fertilization of all different kinds of animals. In vitro, in glass. So, it's animals. In vitro, in glass. So, it's animals. In vitro, in glass. So, it's literally making a baby in a petri dish. literally making a baby in a petri dish. literally making a baby in a petri dish. That's what in vitro fertilization is. That's what in vitro fertilization is. That's what in vitro fertilization is. >> Most of the time, if you're going to go >> Most of the time, if you're going to go >> Most of the time, if you're going to go through in vitro fertilization, if through in vitro fertilization, if through in vitro fertilization, if you're going to spend the 10 to $25,000 you're going to spend the 10 to $25,000 you're going to spend the 10 to $25,000 to create embryos. You don't want to to create embryos. You don't want to to create embryos. You don't want to create two. You want to create as many create two. You want to create as many create two. You want to create as many as possible. So very often somebody will as possible. So very often somebody will as possible. So very often somebody will be done with a round of IVF and they'll be done with a round of IVF and they'll be done with a round of IVF and they'll have 10 or 15 or 25 embryos that they have 10 or 15 or 25 embryos that they have 10 or 15 or 25 embryos that they will then decide what am I going to do will then decide what am I going to do will then decide what am I going to do with them. Very few people are prepared with them. Very few people are prepared with them. Very few people are prepared to parent 25 children. But the fertility to parent 25 children. But the fertility to parent 25 children. But the fertility doctors and the clinics will encourage doctors and the clinics will encourage doctors and the clinics will encourage you to mass-roduce children because they you to mass-roduce children because they you to mass-roduce children because they will go through a process of grading the will go through a process of grading the will go through a process of grading the embryos, genetically screening the embryos, genetically screening the embryos, genetically screening the embryos, often sex selecting the embryos, often sex selecting the embryos, often sex selecting the embryos. So if you'd like to pay a embryos. So if you'd like to pay a embryos. So if you'd like to pay a little bit extra, you can get biomarkers little bit extra, you can get biomarkers little bit extra, you can get biomarkers for,200 different traits. Early for,200 different traits. Early for,200 different traits. Early baldness, premature blindness, you can baldness, premature blindness, you can baldness, premature blindness, you can test the eye colors of the children. You

test the eye colors of the children. You test the eye colors of the children. You can customize the baby. And by can customize the baby. And by can customize the baby. And by customize, I don't mean create a child, customize, I don't mean create a child, customize, I don't mean create a child, a boy that has a specific color of blue a boy that has a specific color of blue a boy that has a specific color of blue eyes. By customize, I mean you eyes. By customize, I mean you eyes. By customize, I mean you mass-produce children and you eliminate mass-produce children and you eliminate mass-produce children and you eliminate the ones the ones the ones >> that don't fit your specifications. >> that don't fit your specifications. >> that don't fit your specifications. So, um, a lot of times these surplus So, um, a lot of times these surplus So, um, a lot of times these surplus embryos are then frozen and then every embryos are then frozen and then every embryos are then frozen and then every time you go back to the clinic after the time you go back to the clinic after the time you go back to the clinic after the first or second or third IVF transfer first or second or third IVF transfer first or second or third IVF transfer fails, you go back and get a few more fails, you go back and get a few more fails, you go back and get a few more embryos and try to implant again. embryos and try to implant again. embryos and try to implant again. >> Okay. And that's before we jump into >> Okay. And that's before we jump into >> Okay. And that's before we jump into some of the theology around it and some of the theology around it and some of the theology around it and connect some dots for people, just just connect some dots for people, just just connect some dots for people, just just a few things. One is I just want to a few things. One is I just want to a few things. One is I just want to recognize that it's a very sensitive recognize that it's a very sensitive recognize that it's a very sensitive topic for people. Um, fertility topic for people. Um, fertility topic for people. Um, fertility struggles are very real. Pastor Josh and struggles are very real. Pastor Josh and struggles are very real. Pastor Josh and Jen, they've been very open about Jen, they've been very open about Jen, they've been very open about theirs. Um, and we just know a lot of theirs. Um, and we just know a lot of theirs. Um, and we just know a lot of people listening on people to our church people listening on people to our church people listening on people to our church struggle with that. And I don't in any struggle with that. And I don't in any struggle with that. And I don't in any way want to make it sound like we're way want to make it sound like we're way want to make it sound like we're being insensitive to that or or downplay being insensitive to that or or downplay being insensitive to that or or downplay that whatso. In fact, I was even that whatso. In fact, I was even that whatso. In fact, I was even thinking earlier when we were discussing thinking earlier when we were discussing thinking earlier when we were discussing samesex marriage and I talked about one samesex marriage and I talked about one samesex marriage and I talked about one of the main things that God had designed of the main things that God had designed of the main things that God had designed to be in marriages for the procreation to be in marriages for the procreation to be in marriages for the procreation of children. My mind went into like, oh, of children. My mind went into like, oh, of children. My mind went into like, oh, I hope a couple did not hear that and I hope a couple did not hear that and I hope a couple did not hear that and think that if they're dealing with think that if they're dealing with think that if they're dealing with fertility issues that their marriage is fertility issues that their marriage is fertility issues that their marriage is less than. That is not what we mean by less than. That is not what we mean by less than. That is not what we mean by that whatsoever. But I just want I want that whatsoever. But I just want I want that whatsoever. But I just want I want us to be sensitive and know that this is us to be sensitive and know that this is us to be sensitive and know that this is something that people struggle with.

something that people struggle with. something that people struggle with. Also, some people may have already gone Also, some people may have already gone Also, some people may have already gone through in vitro fertization and don't through in vitro fertization and don't through in vitro fertization and don't know some of the things we're about to know some of the things we're about to know some of the things we're about to bring to bear. And that's another thing bring to bear. And that's another thing bring to bear. And that's another thing I would say is as we're entering to this I would say is as we're entering to this I would say is as we're entering to this conversation, what's really hit me the conversation, what's really hit me the conversation, what's really hit me the last three to five years is just how last three to five years is just how last three to five years is just how little Christians are prepared to have little Christians are prepared to have little Christians are prepared to have this conversation and how little we know this conversation and how little we know this conversation and how little we know because the first I think flinch Katie, because the first I think flinch Katie, because the first I think flinch Katie, at least the people I've talked to on at least the people I've talked to on at least the people I've talked to on this is been like, well, why wouldn't we this is been like, well, why wouldn't we this is been like, well, why wouldn't we want to have more babies in any means want to have more babies in any means want to have more babies in any means possible to make that happen without possible to make that happen without possible to make that happen without asking some tough questions exactly of asking some tough questions exactly of asking some tough questions exactly of how that happens? and hey well hey if we how that happens? and hey well hey if we how that happens? and hey well hey if we dispose of these embryos well then what dispose of these embryos well then what dispose of these embryos well then what did we just do and so I just want to I did we just do and so I just want to I did we just do and so I just want to I just want to say hey this is very just want to say hey this is very just want to say hey this is very sensitive topic and so we're going to sensitive topic and so we're going to sensitive topic and so we're going to handle it with care but also we're going handle it with care but also we're going handle it with care but also we're going to try to give a lot of the details so to try to give a lot of the details so to try to give a lot of the details so that people can make more informed that people can make more informed that people can make more informed decisions and really understand if decisions and really understand if decisions and really understand if they're thinking about IVF really what they're thinking about IVF really what they're thinking about IVF really what they're getting into. So, I just I just they're getting into. So, I just I just they're getting into. So, I just I just wanted to say that before we get into wanted to say that before we get into wanted to say that before we get into some of the theology of it, some of the theology of it, some of the theology of it, >> here's some theological things that >> here's some theological things that >> here's some theological things that really intersect with this that really really intersect with this that really really intersect with this that really should inform the conversations we're should inform the conversations we're should inform the conversations we're having. And that's really just this having. And that's really just this having. And that's really just this basic principle that every person is basic principle that every person is basic principle that every person is created in God's image from conception. created in God's image from conception. created in God's image from conception. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And have worth and value from >> And have worth and value from >> And have worth and value from conception. We see in Psalm 119, David conception. We see in Psalm 119, David conception. We see in Psalm 119, David says, "You saw my unformed substance."

says, "You saw my unformed substance." says, "You saw my unformed substance." >> I love that detail. Not my body, not my >> I love that detail. Not my body, not my >> I love that detail. Not my body, not my heart. But he said, "You saw my unformed heart. But he said, "You saw my unformed heart. But he said, "You saw my unformed substance." From conception, we have substance." From conception, we have substance." From conception, we have value. And even Okay, you may can go value. And even Okay, you may can go value. And even Okay, you may can go back and forth on these kind of back and forth on these kind of back and forth on these kind of questions. I say from conception because questions. I say from conception because questions. I say from conception because at conception, a new life is created. at conception, a new life is created. at conception, a new life is created. Because I don't know in the Because I don't know in the Because I don't know in the conversations you're having with people, conversations you're having with people, conversations you're having with people, but often times like, well, that's just but often times like, well, that's just but often times like, well, that's just a clump of cells. In fact, what do you a clump of cells. In fact, what do you a clump of cells. In fact, what do you say to people when they're like, "Oh, say to people when they're like, "Oh, say to people when they're like, "Oh, this is just a clump of cells." What this is just a clump of cells." What this is just a clump of cells." What what do you say? I'll give my response what do you say? I'll give my response what do you say? I'll give my response to say, "But what do you like to say to say, "But what do you like to say to say, "But what do you like to say here?" here?" here?" >> I'm like, "So are you. You're a clump of >> I'm like, "So are you. You're a clump of >> I'm like, "So are you. You're a clump of cells, too. I mean, we're all just an cells, too. I mean, we're all just an cells, too. I mean, we're all just an organization of cells at different organization of cells at different organization of cells at different stages of development. stages of development. stages of development. >> I mean, and the truth is you're saying >> I mean, and the truth is you're saying >> I mean, and the truth is you're saying that because you must dehumanize this that because you must dehumanize this that because you must dehumanize this thing so you can do what you want with thing so you can do what you want with thing so you can do what you want with it. it. it. >> Exactly. And often what I'll do is I >> Exactly. And often what I'll do is I >> Exactly. And often what I'll do is I say, "Okay, yeah, yeah, it is." But in say, "Okay, yeah, yeah, it is." But in say, "Okay, yeah, yeah, it is." But in fact, when it's first created, the Srio, fact, when it's first created, the Srio, fact, when it's first created, the Srio, it's one cell. It's called a zygote. it's one cell. It's called a zygote. it's one cell. It's called a zygote. Okay. Yeah. And and and whose cells are Okay. Yeah. And and and whose cells are Okay. Yeah. And and and whose cells are those? Actually, what kind of cells are those? Actually, what kind of cells are those? Actually, what kind of cells are there? They're human cells. there? They're human cells. there? They're human cells. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Are they living or non-living? They're >> Are they living or non-living? They're >> Are they living or non-living? They're living. Oh, so living as in they're living. Oh, so living as in they're living. Oh, so living as in they're alive. As in other words, they have alive. As in other words, they have alive. As in other words, they have life. So it's a life. life. So it's a life. life. So it's a life. >> Is it the mother's cells? No. Is it the >> Is it the mother's cells? No. Is it the >> Is it the mother's cells? No. Is it the father cells? No. In fact, it has unique father cells? No. In fact, it has unique father cells? No. In fact, it has unique DNA. The first cell, the first zygote DNA. The first cell, the first zygote DNA. The first cell, the first zygote from this moment of conception. It is from this moment of conception. It is from this moment of conception. It is alive and has a unique DNA that is a alive and has a unique DNA that is a alive and has a unique DNA that is a combination of his mothers and fathers combination of his mothers and fathers combination of his mothers and fathers of DNA. But it is unique. So we're of DNA. But it is unique. So we're of DNA. But it is unique. So we're dealing with the human life that is dealing with the human life that is dealing with the human life that is precious from conception. Here's where precious from conception. Here's where precious from conception. Here's where this interfaces with IVF is that if you this interfaces with IVF is that if you this interfaces with IVF is that if you have these embryos that have been have these embryos that have been have these embryos that have been fertilized artificially, that means that fertilized artificially, that means that fertilized artificially, that means that each of these embryos is a human life.

each of these embryos is a human life. each of these embryos is a human life. They are cells. They are human cells. They are cells. They are human cells. They are cells. They are human cells. They are alive. So they are lives. They are alive. So they are lives. They are alive. So they are lives. >> And so then if we just dispose of them, >> And so then if we just dispose of them, >> And so then if we just dispose of them, that means we are disposing of people that means we are disposing of people that means we are disposing of people that were created in the image of God. that were created in the image of God. that were created in the image of God. Um and so when we talk about IVF, I know Um and so when we talk about IVF, I know Um and so when we talk about IVF, I know I think in fact Pastor Josh believe even I think in fact Pastor Josh believe even I think in fact Pastor Josh believe even talked about this episode. We'll put talked about this episode. We'll put talked about this episode. We'll put that in in the show guide and just make that in in the show guide and just make that in in the show guide and just make sure that people can go listen to that. sure that people can go listen to that. sure that people can go listen to that. Pastor Josh responded today and I would Pastor Josh responded today and I would Pastor Josh responded today and I would as well, but I would love to have you as well, but I would love to have you as well, but I would love to have you thought some details because it's a very thought some details because it's a very thought some details because it's a very nuanced topic is that hey, what about if nuanced topic is that hey, what about if nuanced topic is that hey, what about if people want to pursue IVF? We'd say, people want to pursue IVF? We'd say, people want to pursue IVF? We'd say, well, hey, in order to do this well, hey, in order to do this well, hey, in order to do this ethically, in a way that honors God, you ethically, in a way that honors God, you ethically, in a way that honors God, you would for sure not be able to do this in would for sure not be able to do this in would for sure not be able to do this in a way that disposes of those embryos. a way that disposes of those embryos. a way that disposes of those embryos. But as you've said, that is the standard But as you've said, that is the standard But as you've said, that is the standard practice. That is normal practice. So, practice. That is normal practice. So, practice. That is normal practice. So, you know, that if you're going to go you know, that if you're going to go you know, that if you're going to go into this, Christians got to know this into this, Christians got to know this into this, Christians got to know this is a tight rope. This is I would say a is a tight rope. This is I would say a is a tight rope. This is I would say a minefield that it is theoretically minefield that it is theoretically minefield that it is theoretically possible to get through it, but you've possible to get through it, but you've possible to get through it, but you've really got to do it carefully because if really got to do it carefully because if really got to do it carefully because if not, you're devaluing and throwing away not, you're devaluing and throwing away not, you're devaluing and throwing away and destroying life that is precious to and destroying life that is precious to and destroying life that is precious to God. So, Pastor Josh said, and I would God. So, Pastor Josh said, and I would God. So, Pastor Josh said, and I would say that, hey, if you can do this in a say that, hey, if you can do this in a say that, hey, if you can do this in a way that does not dispose of those way that does not dispose of those way that does not dispose of those embryos, then yes, it's possible. But embryos, then yes, it's possible. But embryos, then yes, it's possible. But you would actually I'll add in some you would actually I'll add in some you would actually I'll add in some other qualifications. I'd love to hear other qualifications. I'd love to hear other qualifications. I'd love to hear you say some other things. If you're you say some other things. If you're you say some other things. If you're going to do this in a way that honors going to do this in a way that honors going to do this in a way that honors God, because this is a mindfield, how God, because this is a mindfield, how God, because this is a mindfield, how would you tell people, hey, it's would you tell people, hey, it's would you tell people, hey, it's possible if you do X, Y, and Z, what possible if you do X, Y, and Z, what possible if you do X, Y, and Z, what would you say, Katie?

would you say, Katie? would you say, Katie? >> So, remember how I said that nobody gets >> So, remember how I said that nobody gets >> So, remember how I said that nobody gets a pass? Yeah. a pass? Yeah. a pass? Yeah. >> Like, everybody has to bend here, right? >> Like, everybody has to bend here, right? >> Like, everybody has to bend here, right? Somebody with samesex attraction that Somebody with samesex attraction that Somebody with samesex attraction that would be a wonderful husband or be a would be a wonderful husband or be a would be a wonderful husband or be a wonderful father, a wonderful mother. wonderful father, a wonderful mother. wonderful father, a wonderful mother. They can either form a family that um They can either form a family that um They can either form a family that um denies children their mother and father denies children their mother and father denies children their mother and father so they can have what they want or they so they can have what they want or they so they can have what they want or they can conform their life to make sure that can conform their life to make sure that can conform their life to make sure that the children they have have both their the children they have have both their the children they have have both their mother and [clears throat] father loving mother and [clears throat] father loving mother and [clears throat] father loving them and loving each other every day. them and loving each other every day. them and loving each other every day. >> Those in healthy marriages might feel >> Those in healthy marriages might feel >> Those in healthy marriages might feel called to adopt um where they're going called to adopt um where they're going called to adopt um where they're going to do the hard things on behalf of to do the hard things on behalf of to do the hard things on behalf of children. children. children. >> People struggling with infertility, >> People struggling with infertility, >> People struggling with infertility, this is their opportunity, this is their opportunity, this is their opportunity, >> their their call to do hard things on >> their their call to do hard things on >> their their call to do hard things on behalf of children. And that means that behalf of children. And that means that behalf of children. And that means that as you work through your struggles with as you work through your struggles with as you work through your struggles with infertility, you cannot victimize infertility, you cannot victimize infertility, you cannot victimize children in the process. children in the process. children in the process. >> And big fertility offers so many ways to >> And big fertility offers so many ways to >> And big fertility offers so many ways to victimize children. You know, it's not victimize children. You know, it's not victimize children. You know, it's not just the loss of life. just the loss of life. just the loss of life. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> well, first let's talk about the loss of >> well, first let's talk about the loss of >> well, first let's talk about the loss of life. life. life. >> So because couples are encouraged and >> So because couples are encouraged and >> So because couples are encouraged and and the people that have gone through and the people that have gone through and the people that have gone through IVF, they actually know what I'm talking IVF, they actually know what I'm talking IVF, they actually know what I'm talking about. Yeah.

about. Yeah. about. Yeah. >> They know that they create that they >> They know that they create that they >> They know that they create that they were encouraged at least to create were encouraged at least to create were encouraged at least to create multiple embryos. They know that they multiple embryos. They know that they multiple embryos. They know that they were probably pressured to grade their were probably pressured to grade their were probably pressured to grade their embryos. They know that embryos. They know that embryos. They know that >> at 75% of clinics they will do genetic >> at 75% of clinics they will do genetic >> at 75% of clinics they will do genetic screening, right? 74% do sex selection. screening, right? 74% do sex selection. screening, right? 74% do sex selection. And so like these are menu options that And so like these are menu options that And so like these are menu options that are given to people who are desperate are given to people who are desperate are given to people who are desperate for a child. And I think that big for a child. And I think that big for a child. And I think that big fertility prays on that desperation like fertility prays on that desperation like fertility prays on that desperation like really really exploits especially women really really exploits especially women really really exploits especially women >> who have this god-given desire to be a >> who have this god-given desire to be a >> who have this god-given desire to be a mother. Yes. and um they'll just take mother. Yes. and um they'll just take mother. Yes. and um they'll just take you for all your worth because of it. you for all your worth because of it. you for all your worth because of it. So, the people that have gone through So, the people that have gone through So, the people that have gone through IVF, they know that especially if they IVF, they know that especially if they IVF, they know that especially if they went in with pro-life convictions, a lot went in with pro-life convictions, a lot went in with pro-life convictions, a lot of them found themselves fighting their of them found themselves fighting their of them found themselves fighting their doctors to not discard embryos or they doctors to not discard embryos or they doctors to not discard embryos or they were told, "Well, this this is not were told, "Well, this this is not were told, "Well, this this is not viable, viable, viable, >> so we have to discard it." And the truth >> so we have to discard it." And the truth >> so we have to discard it." And the truth is viability is a very subjective term, is viability is a very subjective term, is viability is a very subjective term, right? So it is very hard to go into right? So it is very hard to go into right? So it is very hard to go into this honoring the IMO day this honoring the IMO day this honoring the IMO day >> of children that are fertilized in >> of children that are fertilized in >> of children that are fertilized in vitro, fertilized in glass because vitro, fertilized in glass because vitro, fertilized in glass because you're working against an industry that you're working against an industry that you're working against an industry that does not have the same priorities.

does not have the same priorities. does not have the same priorities. >> Given all the different the gauntlet of >> Given all the different the gauntlet of >> Given all the different the gauntlet of really eugenics-like screening that really eugenics-like screening that really eugenics-like screening that these little lives have to go through, these little lives have to go through, these little lives have to go through, maybe 10% of them will even be maybe 10% of them will even be maybe 10% of them will even be transferred to the womb. Maybe 10%. The transferred to the womb. Maybe 10%. The transferred to the womb. Maybe 10%. The vast majority will be screened out of vast majority will be screened out of vast majority will be screened out of existence or frozen forever. existence or frozen forever. existence or frozen forever. >> Of the >> we don't know how many children are made >> we don't know how many children are made in vitro every year because big in vitro every year because big in vitro every year because big fertility has no requirement to track or fertility has no requirement to track or fertility has no requirement to track or share what they do with these little share what they do with these little share what they do with these little lives, where they go, who takes them lives, where they go, who takes them lives, where they go, who takes them home. home. home. >> But our best estimate is only 2 to 3% of >> But our best estimate is only 2 to 3% of >> But our best estimate is only 2 to 3% of children created in a laboratory will be children created in a laboratory will be children created in a laboratory will be born alive. Only 2 to 3%. born alive. Only 2 to 3%. born alive. Only 2 to 3%. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. And every one of those children, we have And every one of those children, we have And every one of those children, we have about a 100,000 children born in the about a 100,000 children born in the about a 100,000 children born in the United States through IVF. Every one of United States through IVF. Every one of United States through IVF. Every one of them is precious, them is precious, them is precious, >> have dignity, they're worthy of life. >> have dignity, they're worthy of life. >> have dignity, they're worthy of life. There's just a good chance they had nine There's just a good chance they had nine There's just a good chance they had nine siblings that are never going to have siblings that are never going to have siblings that are never going to have the same chance. the same chance. the same chance. >> And those kids deserved protection, too. >> And those kids deserved protection, too. >> And those kids deserved protection, too. They deserve to be cherished. They They deserve to be cherished. They They deserve to be cherished. They deserved a chance to just know the deserved a chance to just know the deserved a chance to just know the warmth of their own mother's womb. So if warmth of their own mother's womb. So if warmth of their own mother's womb. So if you are going to do IVF, it cannot be at you are going to do IVF, it cannot be at you are going to do IVF, it cannot be at the expense of children.

the expense of children. the expense of children. >> No child can lose their right to life. >> No child can lose their right to life. >> No child can lose their right to life. That means no genetic screening. That That means no genetic screening. That That means no genetic screening. That means no sex selection. That means no means no sex selection. That means no means no sex selection. That means no selective reduction, which is what the selective reduction, which is what the selective reduction, which is what the doctor will encourage you to do. If you doctor will encourage you to do. If you doctor will encourage you to do. If you have multiples, um, or if a child have multiples, um, or if a child have multiples, um, or if a child doesn't look like they're developing doesn't look like they're developing doesn't look like they're developing properly, they will encourage you to properly, they will encourage you to properly, they will encourage you to abort at 12 to 20 weeks. It also means abort at 12 to 20 weeks. It also means abort at 12 to 20 weeks. It also means no freezing because when kids go into a no freezing because when kids go into a no freezing because when kids go into a freezer, they very often don't come out. freezer, they very often don't come out. freezer, they very often don't come out. Maybe you think, well, we're going to go Maybe you think, well, we're going to go Maybe you think, well, we're going to go back for all of them. But then on your back for all of them. But then on your back for all of them. But then on your third pregnancy, because IVF is a third pregnancy, because IVF is a third pregnancy, because IVF is a high-risisk pregnancy, you have a high-risisk pregnancy, you have a high-risisk pregnancy, you have a hysterctomy hysterctomy hysterctomy >> and then what do you do? Or then you end >> and then what do you do? Or then you end >> and then what do you do? Or then you end up getting a divorce and he doesn't want up getting a divorce and he doesn't want up getting a divorce and he doesn't want any more children and you desperately any more children and you desperately any more children and you desperately want to have those babies. I mean at want to have those babies. I mean at want to have those babies. I mean at then before us we get letters weekly, then before us we get letters weekly, then before us we get letters weekly, multiple times a week of people saying multiple times a week of people saying multiple times a week of people saying I have these five surplus embryos or I I have these five surplus embryos or I I have these five surplus embryos or I have these 15 surplus embryos. What do I have these 15 surplus embryos. What do I have these 15 surplus embryos. What do I do? I'm just in agony over it. do? I'm just in agony over it. do? I'm just in agony over it. >> The answer is like there is no path >> The answer is like there is no path >> The answer is like there is no path forward that does not involve forward that does not involve forward that does not involve significant child loss here. There's significant child loss here. There's significant child loss here. There's something about manufacturing children something about manufacturing children something about manufacturing children in mass and keeping them in frozen in mass and keeping them in frozen in mass and keeping them in frozen orphanages that inherently puts them at orphanages that inherently puts them at orphanages that inherently puts them at risk. But that is not the only problem risk. But that is not the only problem risk. But that is not the only problem with IVF.

with IVF. with IVF. about our best estimate is anywhere from about our best estimate is anywhere from about our best estimate is anywhere from you know 30,000 to maybe 60,000 children you know 30,000 to maybe 60,000 children you know 30,000 to maybe 60,000 children of those 100,000 that are born will also of those 100,000 that are born will also of those 100,000 that are born will also lose their mother or father in the lose their mother or father in the lose their mother or father in the process. So if for example you are process. So if for example you are process. So if for example you are infertile and I say infertile because a infertile and I say infertile because a infertile and I say infertile because a lot of times doctors aren't even lot of times doctors aren't even lot of times doctors aren't even diagnosing infertility and they're not diagnosing infertility and they're not diagnosing infertility and they're not even doing the work to figure out what even doing the work to figure out what even doing the work to figure out what are the fertility challenges. They're are the fertility challenges. They're are the fertility challenges. They're just saying IVF pipeline get you into just saying IVF pipeline get you into just saying IVF pipeline get you into the IVF pipeline. Um, but a lot of times the IVF pipeline. Um, but a lot of times the IVF pipeline. Um, but a lot of times they'll say, "Well, you you your eggs they'll say, "Well, you you your eggs they'll say, "Well, you you your eggs aren't good." And sometimes they're not. aren't good." And sometimes they're not. aren't good." And sometimes they're not. So, you need to use a donor egg. So, you need to use a donor egg. So, you need to use a donor egg. >> Well, what does that mean? That means >> Well, what does that mean? That means >> Well, what does that mean? That means you are going to commercially deny you are going to commercially deny you are going to commercially deny children a right to their own mother. children a right to their own mother. children a right to their own mother. That's what it means. So, probably 30 to That's what it means. So, probably 30 to That's what it means. So, probably 30 to 60, a third to twothirds of the children 60, a third to twothirds of the children 60, a third to twothirds of the children born through IVF every year will lose born through IVF every year will lose born through IVF every year will lose their mother or father or both in the their mother or father or both in the their mother or father or both in the process. And that's a violation of process. And that's a violation of process. And that's a violation of children's rights. And then children children's rights. And then children children's rights. And then children have a right to be born free, not bought have a right to be born free, not bought have a right to be born free, not bought and sold. And what are you doing when and sold. And what are you doing when and sold. And what are you doing when you hire uh when you purchase egg from a you hire uh when you purchase egg from a you hire uh when you purchase egg from a catalog or sperm from a catalog? What catalog or sperm from a catalog? What catalog or sperm from a catalog? What are you doing if you pay another woman are you doing if you pay another woman are you doing if you pay another woman to carry your child?

to carry your child? to carry your child? >> Contractually, you are paying them to >> Contractually, you are paying them to >> Contractually, you are paying them to relinquish their parental rights for relinquish their parental rights for relinquish their parental rights for money. money. money. And in the adoption world, when I used And in the adoption world, when I used And in the adoption world, when I used to be in charge of compliance for our to be in charge of compliance for our to be in charge of compliance for our adoption agency, whenever a birth adoption agency, whenever a birth adoption agency, whenever a birth parent, whenever money went from parent, whenever money went from parent, whenever money went from intended parents to birth parent to intended parents to birth parent to intended parents to birth parent to transfer custody of the child, that was transfer custody of the child, that was transfer custody of the child, that was not adoption. That was now trafficking. not adoption. That was now trafficking. not adoption. That was now trafficking. When you are paying adults to hand over When you are paying adults to hand over When you are paying adults to hand over their parental rights for money, that is their parental rights for money, that is their parental rights for money, that is baby buying. So unfortunately, big baby buying. So unfortunately, big baby buying. So unfortunately, big fertility gets a lot of mileage off of fertility gets a lot of mileage off of fertility gets a lot of mileage off of this idea that we have that this is just this idea that we have that this is just this idea that we have that this is just a way for our infertile sister to have a way for our infertile sister to have a way for our infertile sister to have the baby she desperately wants. In the baby she desperately wants. In the baby she desperately wants. In reality, it is an industry that reality, it is an industry that reality, it is an industry that victimizes children on the level of victimizes children on the level of victimizes children on the level of violating their right to life, violating violating their right to life, violating violating their right to life, violating their right to their mother and father, their right to their mother and father, their right to their mother and father, and violating their right to be born and violating their right to be born and violating their right to be born free and not bought and sold. free and not bought and sold. free and not bought and sold. >> Right. Well, I was going to say so >> Right. Well, I was going to say so >> Right. Well, I was going to say so distinguished to even kind of help distinguished to even kind of help distinguished to even kind of help summarize this. You would not say that summarize this. You would not say that summarize this. You would not say that IVF is sinful in and of itself just like IVF is sinful in and of itself just like IVF is sinful in and of itself just like the practice that there you would say I the practice that there you would say I the practice that there you would say I think we talked about before that there think we talked about before that there think we talked about before that there is a very it's a very thin line you can is a very it's a very thin line you can is a very it's a very thin line you can walk to be able to get to it but you walk to be able to get to it but you walk to be able to get to it but you would say you got to know that the would say you got to know that the would say you got to know that the industry so it's almost like separating industry so it's almost like separating industry so it's almost like separating people who are thinking about IVF saying people who are thinking about IVF saying people who are thinking about IVF saying hey it could be theoretically possible hey it could be theoretically possible hey it could be theoretically possible to do it in a way that would not to do it in a way that would not to do it in a way that would not dishonor God but you got to know if dishonor God but you got to know if dishonor God but you got to know if you're thinking about that you're going you're thinking about that you're going you're thinking about that you're going into an industry that this is their into an industry that this is their into an industry that this is their standard operating procedure is to do it standard operating procedure is to do it standard operating procedure is to do it in ways that would dishonor God. Is that in ways that would dishonor God. Is that in ways that would dishonor God. Is that a is that a helpful distinction to make?

a is that a helpful distinction to make? a is that a helpful distinction to make? But I would say you might want to do it But I would say you might want to do it But I would say you might want to do it that way, but you probably don't have that way, but you probably don't have that way, but you probably don't have the money. the money. the money. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You probably don't have the money to do >> You probably don't have the money to do >> You probably don't have the money to do it in the way where you only create one it in the way where you only create one it in the way where you only create one or two embryos that you don't screen, or two embryos that you don't screen, or two embryos that you don't screen, that you immediately implant, and then that you immediately implant, and then that you immediately implant, and then you go back for a third or fourth or you go back for a third or fourth or you go back for a third or fourth or seventh time because those fail over and seventh time because those fail over and seventh time because those fail over and over and over. over and over. over and over. >> And if you did want to go into it with >> And if you did want to go into it with >> And if you did want to go into it with pro-life convictions, you probably will pro-life convictions, you probably will pro-life convictions, you probably will argue with your doctor and clinic about argue with your doctor and clinic about argue with your doctor and clinic about it because they don't want you to use it because they don't want you to use it because they don't want you to use the lowgrade embryos. The one thing that the lowgrade embryos. The one thing that the lowgrade embryos. The one thing that fertility clinics actually have to fertility clinics actually have to fertility clinics actually have to publicize and share is their live birth publicize and share is their live birth publicize and share is their live birth rates. How many of the babies that are rates. How many of the babies that are rates. How many of the babies that are how many of the embryos that are how many of the embryos that are how many of the embryos that are transferred result in a live birth? So transferred result in a live birth? So transferred result in a live birth? So from their perspective, they don't want from their perspective, they don't want from their perspective, they don't want poor embryos to be transferred because poor embryos to be transferred because poor embryos to be transferred because it will drop their live birth rate. So it will drop their live birth rate. So it will drop their live birth rate. So they will encourage you to discard. They they will encourage you to discard. They they will encourage you to discard. They will encourage you to freeze the will encourage you to freeze the will encourage you to freeze the undesirable children. So if you're going undesirable children. So if you're going undesirable children. So if you're going to go into this with pro-life to go into this with pro-life to go into this with pro-life convictions, with pro-child convictions, convictions, with pro-child convictions, convictions, with pro-child convictions, you're going to be alone. you're going to be alone. you're going to be alone. >> You're going to be on your own. There >> You're going to be on your own. There >> You're going to be on your own. There was a really famous, well publicized was a really famous, well publicized was a really famous, well publicized decision by the Alabama Supreme Court in decision by the Alabama Supreme Court in decision by the Alabama Supreme Court in February of 2024 where couples sued a February of 2024 where couples sued a February of 2024 where couples sued a clinic for the wrongful death of their clinic for the wrongful death of their clinic for the wrongful death of their embryos. Their embryos were mishandled.

embryos. Their embryos were mishandled. embryos. Their embryos were mishandled. There was three different couples. The There was three different couples. The There was three different couples. The embryos were lost because they were embryos were lost because they were embryos were lost because they were dropped and they were thought or dropped and they were thought or dropped and they were thought or something. And they brought a wrongful something. And they brought a wrongful something. And they brought a wrongful death claim against the clinic as if death claim against the clinic as if death claim against the clinic as if their children had died because their their children had died because their their children had died because their children had died. And the Alabama children had died. And the Alabama children had died. And the Alabama Supreme Court said, "Yes, you can sue a Supreme Court said, "Yes, you can sue a Supreme Court said, "Yes, you can sue a clinic for killing your children because clinic for killing your children because clinic for killing your children because they mishandled these frozen embryos." they mishandled these frozen embryos." they mishandled these frozen embryos." It was the most pro-life decision that It was the most pro-life decision that It was the most pro-life decision that any court had ever handed down because any court had ever handed down because any court had ever handed down because it was recognizing the personhood it was recognizing the personhood it was recognizing the personhood >> of these little lives, even though they >> of these little lives, even though they >> of these little lives, even though they were outside the womb. were outside the womb. were outside the womb. >> The immediate result is IVF ground to a >> The immediate result is IVF ground to a >> The immediate result is IVF ground to a halt in Alabama. Mhm. halt in Alabama. Mhm. halt in Alabama. Mhm. >> Every clinic and every hospital that was >> Every clinic and every hospital that was >> Every clinic and every hospital that was conducting IVF said, conducting IVF said, conducting IVF said, >> "Whoa, >> "Whoa, >> "Whoa, >> you're telling me we are responsible if >> you're telling me we are responsible if >> you're telling me we are responsible if embryos die in this pro. We can't do embryos die in this pro. We can't do embryos die in this pro. We can't do business here." business here." business here." >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> They said our whole they lit I have >> They said our whole they lit I have >> They said our whole they lit I have quotes from doctors. Our all of our quotes from doctors. Our all of our quotes from doctors. Our all of our services to adults are are conditioned services to adults are are conditioned services to adults are are conditioned on being able to grade and select the on being able to grade and select the on being able to grade and select the child that's right for them. And child that's right for them. And child that's right for them. And freezing is a really important part of freezing is a really important part of freezing is a really important part of this process. What they're saying is this process. What they're saying is this process. What they're saying is we're not going to make any money if we we're not going to make any money if we we're not going to make any money if we cannot eliminate the undesirabs um for cannot eliminate the undesirabs um for cannot eliminate the undesirabs um for whatever adults wanted, especially if whatever adults wanted, especially if whatever adults wanted, especially if that has to do with purposeful and that has to do with purposeful and that has to do with purposeful and accidental. So, the doctors themselves accidental. So, the doctors themselves accidental. So, the doctors themselves are not going into this with a pro-life are not going into this with a pro-life are not going into this with a pro-life understanding. They will make money by understanding. They will make money by understanding. They will make money by mass-producing children and help you mass-producing children and help you mass-producing children and help you choose the ones that you want.

choose the ones that you want. choose the ones that you want. >> I just I know Carlos probably has some >> I just I know Carlos probably has some >> I just I know Carlos probably has some follow-up questions, but I just feel follow-up questions, but I just feel follow-up questions, but I just feel sorry in my heart right now just to to sorry in my heart right now just to to sorry in my heart right now just to to share this. If if you're listening to share this. If if you're listening to share this. If if you're listening to this or watching this and you this or watching this and you this or watching this and you >> have been struggling with fertility >> have been struggling with fertility >> have been struggling with fertility issues and have been thinking about IVF, issues and have been thinking about IVF, issues and have been thinking about IVF, let me just encourage you. This is why let me just encourage you. This is why let me just encourage you. This is why being in a good local church matters so being in a good local church matters so being in a good local church matters so much. much. much. >> And so I would encourage you for sure >> And so I would encourage you for sure >> And so I would encourage you for sure take everything we're saying in take everything we're saying in take everything we're saying in conservation. But this is something I conservation. But this is something I conservation. But this is something I would encourage you for sure if you're would encourage you for sure if you're would encourage you for sure if you're if you're home here at Lake Point, but if you're home here at Lake Point, but if you're home here at Lake Point, but also anywhere where you're coming from, also anywhere where you're coming from, also anywhere where you're coming from, man, be a part of a good local church man, be a part of a good local church man, be a part of a good local church and talk to your pastors. Number one, and talk to your pastors. Number one, and talk to your pastors. Number one, they want to weep with you and more with they want to weep with you and more with they want to weep with you and more with you in your struggles. you in your struggles. you in your struggles. >> Scripture tells us to weep with those >> Scripture tells us to weep with those >> Scripture tells us to weep with those who weeps more with those who mourn. and who weeps more with those who mourn. and who weeps more with those who mourn. and we would love to do that. But number we would love to do that. But number we would love to do that. But number two, it's also why because they can help two, it's also why because they can help two, it's also why because they can help you navigate all these nuances cuz we're you navigate all these nuances cuz we're you navigate all these nuances cuz we're talking very broad things. This is where talking very broad things. This is where talking very broad things. This is where people can walk you through these people can walk you through these people can walk you through these conversations and we I walked through conversations and we I walked through conversations and we I walked through this with a couple one time and they this with a couple one time and they this with a couple one time and they took a very narrow path and they had the took a very narrow path and they had the took a very narrow path and they had the means to do so, but I know that was not means to do so, but I know that was not means to do so, but I know that was not the norm, but I love that they wrestled the norm, but I love that they wrestled the norm, but I love that they wrestled with the elders at their local church with the elders at their local church with the elders at their local church through of which I was a part. So, I through of which I was a part. So, I through of which I was a part. So, I just encourage you right now if there's just encourage you right now if there's just encourage you right now if there's something you're thinking about. I don't something you're thinking about. I don't something you're thinking about. I don't want you to hear condemnation from us or want you to hear condemnation from us or want you to hear condemnation from us or judgment from us. If anything, we're judgment from us. If anything, we're judgment from us. If anything, we're just sharing these things that you can just sharing these things that you can just sharing these things that you can be aware of things you maybe not were be aware of things you maybe not were be aware of things you maybe not were not aware of and to encourage you to not aware of and to encourage you to not aware of and to encourage you to wrestle with it with your pastors in wrestle with it with your pastors in wrestle with it with your pastors in your local churches.

your local churches. your local churches. >> That's right. Well, regarding surrogacy >> That's right. Well, regarding surrogacy >> That's right. Well, regarding surrogacy as well, I'm trying to as well, I'm trying to as well, I'm trying to >> Before we do that, can I just say, >> Before we do that, can I just say, >> Before we do that, can I just say, >> please, >> please, >> please, >> let me give some hope. >> let me give some hope. >> let me give some hope. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Your doctors probably haven't even >> Your doctors probably haven't even >> Your doctors probably haven't even looked and asked to see why you're looked and asked to see why you're looked and asked to see why you're struggling to get pregnant struggling to get pregnant struggling to get pregnant >> because they will not get a lot of >> because they will not get a lot of >> because they will not get a lot of money. They're not going to be able to money. They're not going to be able to money. They're not going to be able to earn anything if they actually resolve earn anything if they actually resolve earn anything if they actually resolve the low sperm count or the the low sperm count or the the low sperm count or the endometriosis. It's going to cost them endometriosis. It's going to cost them endometriosis. It's going to cost them money. But there's a whole branch of money. But there's a whole branch of money. But there's a whole branch of medicine called restorative reproductive medicine called restorative reproductive medicine called restorative reproductive medicine that exists specifically to medicine that exists specifically to medicine that exists specifically to identify and diagnose the underlying identify and diagnose the underlying identify and diagnose the underlying fertility issues of which there could be fertility issues of which there could be fertility issues of which there could be dozens on his side and her side. And dozens on his side and her side. And dozens on his side and her side. And when those are resolved, sometimes it's when those are resolved, sometimes it's when those are resolved, sometimes it's as simple as um a hormonal um supplement as simple as um a hormonal um supplement as simple as um a hormonal um supplement in the woman. So maybe you're getting in the woman. So maybe you're getting in the woman. So maybe you're getting pregnant, but you're not staying pregnant, but you're not staying pregnant, but you're not staying pregnant. Um sometimes there's lifestyle pregnant. Um sometimes there's lifestyle pregnant. Um sometimes there's lifestyle changes on his part that can allow you changes on his part that can allow you changes on his part that can allow you to more easily get pregnant. And this is to more easily get pregnant. And this is to more easily get pregnant. And this is called restorative reproductive called restorative reproductive called restorative reproductive medicine. RRM, restorative reproductive medicine. RRM, restorative reproductive medicine. RRM, restorative reproductive medicine. go to one of these doctors medicine. go to one of these doctors medicine. go to one of these doctors >> and a lot of times they are going to be >> and a lot of times they are going to be >> and a lot of times they are going to be able to solve this and they're depending able to solve this and they're depending able to solve this and they're depending on the problem their success rates far on the problem their success rates far on the problem their success rates far outweigh what you're going to get outweigh what you're going to get outweigh what you're going to get through IVF. You will be healthier on through IVF. You will be healthier on through IVF. You will be healthier on the side on the other side and you won't the side on the other side and you won't the side on the other side and you won't have to deal with these gut-wrenching have to deal with these gut-wrenching have to deal with these gut-wrenching struggles of struggles of struggles of >> figuring out which embryo lives and >> figuring out which embryo lives and >> figuring out which embryo lives and which one dies. So, there's actually a which one dies. So, there's actually a which one dies. So, there's actually a lot of hope for people struggling with lot of hope for people struggling with lot of hope for people struggling with infertility infertility infertility >> and there's a good chance your doctor's >> and there's a good chance your doctor's >> and there's a good chance your doctor's never going to tell you about it.

never going to tell you about it. never going to tell you about it. >> That's helpful. Katie, uh, before we >> That's helpful. Katie, uh, before we >> That's helpful. Katie, uh, before we show this, um, explain the connection show this, um, explain the connection show this, um, explain the connection between surrogacy and IVF. between surrogacy and IVF. between surrogacy and IVF. >> Okay. If you are going to outsource the >> Okay. If you are going to outsource the >> Okay. If you are going to outsource the production of a baby, you need three production of a baby, you need three production of a baby, you need three things. You need sperm, egg, and womb. things. You need sperm, egg, and womb. things. You need sperm, egg, and womb. Sperm is easy to access. We've been able Sperm is easy to access. We've been able Sperm is easy to access. We've been able to get to it for a long time. Eggs are to get to it for a long time. Eggs are to get to it for a long time. Eggs are harder to access, but we've figured out harder to access, but we've figured out harder to access, but we've figured out ways to hyper stimulate a woman's ways to hyper stimulate a woman's ways to hyper stimulate a woman's ovaries and laparoscopically extract ovaries and laparoscopically extract ovaries and laparoscopically extract them. Um, you know, not one that women them. Um, you know, not one that women them. Um, you know, not one that women tend to release per month, but maybe 10, tend to release per month, but maybe 10, tend to release per month, but maybe 10, 20, or 30 if you're young and healthy. 20, or 30 if you're young and healthy. 20, or 30 if you're young and healthy. Um but you also need a womb. And so now Um but you also need a womb. And so now Um but you also need a womb. And so now there is um a whole crop, a whole new there is um a whole crop, a whole new there is um a whole crop, a whole new industry of um wombs for rent, industry of um wombs for rent, industry of um wombs for rent, surrogacy. Um so that an infertile surrogacy. Um so that an infertile surrogacy. Um so that an infertile heterosexual couple or a single, double heterosexual couple or a single, double heterosexual couple or a single, double or triple male couple or just a or triple male couple or just a or triple male couple or just a celebrity couple that doesn't want to celebrity couple that doesn't want to celebrity couple that doesn't want to ruin the bikini bod or interrupt the ruin the bikini bod or interrupt the ruin the bikini bod or interrupt the movie career, you can outsource movie career, you can outsource movie career, you can outsource pregnancy to another woman. And so pregnancy to another woman. And so pregnancy to another woman. And so >> you say single, double or triple male >> you say single, double or triple male >> you say single, double or triple male couple. Yes. couple. Yes. couple. Yes. >> Can you explain that? Um there's >> Can you explain that? Um there's >> Can you explain that? Um there's international organizations that um international organizations that um international organizations that um specifically cater to gay men so that specifically cater to gay men so that specifically cater to gay men so that they can have children without being they can have children without being they can have children without being connected to or in a relationship with a connected to or in a relationship with a connected to or in a relationship with a woman at all. They globally source all woman at all. They globally source all woman at all. They globally source all the different parts of the female from the different parts of the female from the different parts of the female from different places around the globe.

different places around the globe. different places around the globe. They'll navigate you to countries where They'll navigate you to countries where They'll navigate you to countries where you can easily acquire the child and you can easily acquire the child and you can easily acquire the child and take them across international borders. take them across international borders. take them across international borders. It's called men having babies and they It's called men having babies and they It's called men having babies and they specifically advertise to single men, specifically advertise to single men, specifically advertise to single men, double men, throppples of men, HIV double men, throppples of men, HIV double men, throppples of men, HIV positive men. Um, but that womb that positive men. Um, but that womb that positive men. Um, but that womb that womb is really, really important. It's womb is really, really important. It's womb is really, really important. It's very, very hard to secure. very, very hard to secure. very, very hard to secure. >> I'm sure there's a lot you can say about >> I'm sure there's a lot you can say about >> I'm sure there's a lot you can say about this. And again, if you have any this. And again, if you have any this. And again, if you have any questions as we, somebody's listening questions as we, somebody's listening questions as we, somebody's listening right now and maybe you have all these right now and maybe you have all these right now and maybe you have all these questions that I'm sure you will, let us questions that I'm sure you will, let us questions that I'm sure you will, let us know in the comments section. And this know in the comments section. And this know in the comments section. And this is what we're using to continue to, you is what we're using to continue to, you is what we're using to continue to, you know, we're going to use it as a know, we're going to use it as a know, we're going to use it as a launchpad for future episodes. Um, launchpad for future episodes. Um, launchpad for future episodes. Um, explain why you are against that. I explain why you are against that. I explain why you are against that. I mean, uh, again, uh, if, uh, in regards mean, uh, again, uh, if, uh, in regards mean, uh, again, uh, if, uh, in regards to surrogacy, the Korean mother is to surrogacy, the Korean mother is to surrogacy, the Korean mother is actually giving an infertile couple the actually giving an infertile couple the actually giving an infertile couple the greatest gift imaginable. Well, Katie, greatest gift imaginable. Well, Katie, greatest gift imaginable. Well, Katie, why would you oppose that? why would you oppose that? why would you oppose that? >> From the adults perspective, surrogacy >> From the adults perspective, surrogacy >> From the adults perspective, surrogacy is awesome. The person that's selling is awesome. The person that's selling is awesome. The person that's selling her egg is going to be able to pay off her egg is going to be able to pay off her egg is going to be able to pay off her student loans. The military wife her student loans. The military wife her student loans. The military wife who's renting her womb is going to be who's renting her womb is going to be who's renting her womb is going to be able to cover some school fees while her able to cover some school fees while her able to cover some school fees while her husband is abroad. um the intended husband is abroad. um the intended husband is abroad. um the intended parents love it for whatever reason parents love it for whatever reason parents love it for whatever reason because maybe they don't have a womb, because maybe they don't have a womb, because maybe they don't have a womb, you know, there's there's a man or two you know, there's there's a man or two you know, there's there's a man or two men. Um maybe it's in a retired couple men. Um maybe it's in a retired couple men. Um maybe it's in a retired couple like we have a higher in a higher an like we have a higher in a higher an like we have a higher in a higher an increased um number of people that are increased um number of people that are increased um number of people that are significantly older, maybe even elderly significantly older, maybe even elderly significantly older, maybe even elderly who are using surrogates to have who are using surrogates to have who are using surrogates to have children because their womb is no longer children because their womb is no longer children because their womb is no longer functional. Um you know, or maybe it is functional. Um you know, or maybe it is functional. Um you know, or maybe it is a pedophile who can't get an adopted a pedophile who can't get an adopted a pedophile who can't get an adopted child because there's too much child because there's too much child because there's too much screening, vetting, and fingerprinting.

screening, vetting, and fingerprinting. screening, vetting, and fingerprinting. so they can access children through so they can access children through so they can access children through surrogacy. So the adults in these surrogacy. So the adults in these surrogacy. So the adults in these surrogacy arrangements tend to be very surrogacy arrangements tend to be very surrogacy arrangements tend to be very very happy with the outcome. very happy with the outcome. very happy with the outcome. >> It is always an injustice to children >> It is always an injustice to children >> It is always an injustice to children regardless of who takes the child home. regardless of who takes the child home. regardless of who takes the child home. And the reason is because what surrogacy And the reason is because what surrogacy And the reason is because what surrogacy does is it splices what God intended to does is it splices what God intended to does is it splices what God intended to be one woman mother into three be one woman mother into three be one woman mother into three purchasable and optional women. So sacy purchasable and optional women. So sacy purchasable and optional women. So sacy allows you to separate off the genetic allows you to separate off the genetic allows you to separate off the genetic mother, right? the the egg donor. And if mother, right? the the egg donor. And if mother, right? the the egg donor. And if you want, you can go right now on your you want, you can go right now on your you want, you can go right now on your phone and you can look up egg donor phone and you can look up egg donor phone and you can look up egg donor catalog and you can filter your child's catalog and you can filter your child's catalog and you can filter your child's genetic mother like you're shopping for genetic mother like you're shopping for genetic mother like you're shopping for a purse on Amazon, okay? But that a purse on Amazon, okay? But that a purse on Amazon, okay? But that genetic mother is so important to genetic mother is so important to genetic mother is so important to children because she gives kids half of children because she gives kids half of children because she gives kids half of their biological identity. You know, their biological identity. You know, their biological identity. You know, that mother helps children answer the that mother helps children answer the that mother helps children answer the question, who am I? It's hard for kids question, who am I? It's hard for kids question, who am I? It's hard for kids to answer the question, who am I? If to answer the question, who am I? If to answer the question, who am I? If they can't answer the question, who's am they can't answer the question, who's am they can't answer the question, who's am I? M I? M I? M >> so that's that's the mother that gives >> so that's that's the mother that gives >> so that's that's the mother that gives kids that biological identity piece. The kids that biological identity piece. The kids that biological identity piece. The birth mother is the one with whom we birth mother is the one with whom we birth mother is the one with whom we bond for 9 and a half months. Um she is bond for 9 and a half months. Um she is bond for 9 and a half months. Um she is the one that the baby knows in terms of the one that the baby knows in terms of the one that the baby knows in terms of her voice and her smell. It is her body her voice and her smell. It is her body her voice and her smell. It is her body that drops baby's cortisol levels after that drops baby's cortisol levels after that drops baby's cortisol levels after they're born. It lowers their stress in they're born. It lowers their stress in they're born. It lowers their stress in a ways that skin-to-skin contact with a ways that skin-to-skin contact with a ways that skin-to-skin contact with other adults do not. You know, we we other adults do not. You know, we we other adults do not. You know, we we don't put babies on their mother's chest don't put babies on their mother's chest don't put babies on their mother's chest right away so they can form a bond. We right away so they can form a bond. We right away so they can form a bond. We put babies on their mother's chest put babies on their mother's chest put babies on their mother's chest because they have an existing bond,

because they have an existing bond, because they have an existing bond, >> right? An existing bond that does >> right? An existing bond that does >> right? An existing bond that does something to the child's neurological something to the child's neurological something to the child's neurological system that allows them to adapt to this system that allows them to adapt to this system that allows them to adapt to this brand new world in a way that brand new world in a way that brand new world in a way that skin-to-skin with even the biological skin-to-skin with even the biological skin-to-skin with even the biological father won't. But then the third mom is father won't. But then the third mom is father won't. But then the third mom is the social mother. The one that's there the social mother. The one that's there the social mother. The one that's there every day. The one that's wearing the every day. The one that's wearing the every day. The one that's wearing the baby and wrapping the baby and baby and wrapping the baby and baby and wrapping the baby and simplifying her language right down to simplifying her language right down to simplifying her language right down to the child's level. Whereas dad walks in the child's level. Whereas dad walks in the child's level. Whereas dad walks in and says, "You wouldn't believe this and says, "You wouldn't believe this and says, "You wouldn't believe this incredible commentary that I bought." incredible commentary that I bought." incredible commentary that I bought." And I just learned so much about the And I just learned so much about the And I just learned so much about the world, the word ruach today. And um the world, the word ruach today. And um the world, the word ruach today. And um the you know, mommy would be like, "Bible is you know, mommy would be like, "Bible is you know, mommy would be like, "Bible is so good. It's God's word." You know, so good. It's God's word." You know, so good. It's God's word." You know, like children need that female presence like children need that female presence like children need that female presence that is going to interact with them that is going to interact with them that is going to interact with them differently than men. differently than men. differently than men. Surrogacy requires that children lose at Surrogacy requires that children lose at Surrogacy requires that children lose at least one of those mothers. least one of those mothers. least one of those mothers. >> Always the birth mother. Very often the >> Always the birth mother. Very often the >> Always the birth mother. Very often the genetic mother as well. And sometimes genetic mother as well. And sometimes genetic mother as well. And sometimes children go home to a house where children go home to a house where children go home to a house where there's no mother at all. [snorts] So there's no mother at all. [snorts] So there's no mother at all. [snorts] So the problem is every one of these three the problem is every one of these three the problem is every one of these three mothers is important to children. And mothers is important to children. And mothers is important to children. And surrogacy allows you to treat each of surrogacy allows you to treat each of surrogacy allows you to treat each of them as optional, purchasable or them as optional, purchasable or them as optional, purchasable or disposable. So from the child's disposable. So from the child's disposable. So from the child's perspective, there's no form of perspective, there's no form of perspective, there's no form of surrogacy that does not inflict an surrogacy that does not inflict an surrogacy that does not inflict an injustice on them. [clears throat] injustice on them. [clears throat] injustice on them. [clears throat] >> There's this article that actually went >> There's this article that actually went >> There's this article that actually went viral literally this week. This is what viral literally this week. This is what viral literally this week. This is what the article is. Trinity, if you can pull the article is. Trinity, if you can pull the article is. Trinity, if you can pull it up, a can, it says, "Couple sued it up, a can, it says, "Couple sued it up, a can, it says, "Couple sued surrogate who refused to abort their surrogate who refused to abort their surrogate who refused to abort their baby over a minor birth defect." Then baby over a minor birth defect." Then baby over a minor birth defect." Then what happened is a Canadian sex samesex what happened is a Canadian sex samesex what happened is a Canadian sex samesex couple is who in the surrogate who couple is who in the surrogate who couple is who in the surrogate who carried their now two-year-old son after carried their now two-year-old son after carried their now two-year-old son after she refused her request to abort the

she refused her request to abort the she refused her request to abort the pregnancy at 22 weeks upon learning of a pregnancy at 22 weeks upon learning of a pregnancy at 22 weeks upon learning of a minor heart defect and a cleft lip. minor heart defect and a cleft lip. minor heart defect and a cleft lip. >> Um what are your what's your response to >> Um what are your what's your response to >> Um what are your what's your response to that Katie? that Katie? that Katie? >> So it's so interesting because a lot of >> So it's so interesting because a lot of >> So it's so interesting because a lot of the times the way you pitch surrogacy is the times the way you pitch surrogacy is the times the way you pitch surrogacy is well I'm not the mother. I'm just the well I'm not the mother. I'm just the well I'm not the mother. I'm just the oven for somebody else's bun. But very oven for somebody else's bun. But very oven for somebody else's bun. But very interestingly what we see is the oven interestingly what we see is the oven interestingly what we see is the oven tends to love the baby more than the tends to love the baby more than the tends to love the baby more than the people that paid for the dough. M and people that paid for the dough. M and people that paid for the dough. M and you see it in this story. There was you see it in this story. There was you see it in this story. There was another story that I just posted this another story that I just posted this another story that I just posted this morning on Twitter of of a black woman morning on Twitter of of a black woman morning on Twitter of of a black woman in Florida who carried triplets for a in Florida who carried triplets for a in Florida who carried triplets for a single Chinese man and he didn't come single Chinese man and he didn't come single Chinese man and he didn't come get the babies. So, she's raising these get the babies. So, she's raising these get the babies. So, she's raising these three triplets with her husband and just three triplets with her husband and just three triplets with her husband and just loves them. loves them. loves them. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And he's like, I'm going to get over >> And he's like, I'm going to get over >> And he's like, I'm going to get over there soon. I'll be there at some point. there soon. I'll be there at some point. there soon. I'll be there at some point. Um he like sends a black car to like Um he like sends a black car to like Um he like sends a black car to like collect them and she's like, I don't collect them and she's like, I don't collect them and she's like, I don't know who these people are. You can't know who these people are. You can't know who these people are. You can't have these babies. Wait a minute. You have these babies. Wait a minute. You have these babies. Wait a minute. You can't have these. and she's protective can't have these. and she's protective can't have these. and she's protective of these babies. Um, and now she's of these babies. Um, and now she's of these babies. Um, and now she's fighting for custody of these babies and fighting for custody of these babies and fighting for custody of these babies and that the single Chinese father hasn't that the single Chinese father hasn't that the single Chinese father hasn't even stepped foot in the United States even stepped foot in the United States even stepped foot in the United States yet. So, there's something about that yet. So, there's something about that yet. So, there's something about that bond that actually seems to deliver a bond that actually seems to deliver a bond that actually seems to deliver a level of protection that a contract level of protection that a contract level of protection that a contract doesn't.

doesn't. doesn't. >> Strange. [snorts] And if we think that >> Strange. [snorts] And if we think that >> Strange. [snorts] And if we think that the woman has a bond with the baby like the woman has a bond with the baby like the woman has a bond with the baby like that, even though she has dozens or that, even though she has dozens or that, even though she has dozens or hundreds of other relationships, how hundreds of other relationships, how hundreds of other relationships, how much of a bond does the baby have to her much of a bond does the baby have to her much of a bond does the baby have to her when the baby has no other when the baby has no other when the baby has no other relationships? relationships? relationships? You would think that the only person in You would think that the only person in You would think that the only person in the whole pantheon of our human the whole pantheon of our human the whole pantheon of our human experience that we are connected to by a experience that we are connected to by a experience that we are connected to by a literal cord would matter to us. literal cord would matter to us. literal cord would matter to us. >> And they do. They do in terms of >> And they do. They do in terms of >> And they do. They do in terms of outcomes for children, the long-term outcomes for children, the long-term outcomes for children, the long-term ability to bond and trust and attach. ability to bond and trust and attach. ability to bond and trust and attach. It's critical for kids, but we are It's critical for kids, but we are It's critical for kids, but we are treating it as disposable. As if two men treating it as disposable. As if two men treating it as disposable. As if two men who are contracting for a child who who are contracting for a child who who are contracting for a child who probably have burned through dozens of probably have burned through dozens of probably have burned through dozens of embryos through that eugenic selection embryos through that eugenic selection embryos through that eugenic selection that we've already talked about. that we've already talked about. that we've already talked about. >> Why do we presume that if they're paying >> Why do we presume that if they're paying >> Why do we presume that if they're paying six figures for a baby, they're not six figures for a baby, they're not six figures for a baby, they're not going to return a defective product. going to return a defective product. going to return a defective product. >> We're going to land the plane here with >> We're going to land the plane here with >> We're going to land the plane here with two videos that I want to react to. Um, two videos that I want to react to. Um, two videos that I want to react to. Um, and then, uh, Paul, I'm going to give and then, uh, Paul, I'm going to give and then, uh, Paul, I'm going to give you some a little bit of time to just you some a little bit of time to just you some a little bit of time to just give final thoughts as we wrap this give final thoughts as we wrap this give final thoughts as we wrap this conversation. Um, the first one, uh, conversation. Um, the first one, uh, conversation. Um, the first one, uh, it's, uh, it's it's a it's one that's it's, uh, it's it's a it's one that's it's, uh, it's it's a it's one that's going to be more of a You know what?

going to be more of a You know what? going to be more of a You know what? Let's just watch it. Here's the first Let's just watch it. Here's the first Let's just watch it. Here's the first one. Uh, Train, if you can play it. one. Uh, Train, if you can play it. one. Uh, Train, if you can play it. We're ready for it. We're ready for it. We're ready for it. >> Hey. Hey. >> Hey. Hey. >> Hey. Hey. >> Who do you want? Da or Pop? >> No. [laughter] Mama, do you want Da or >> No. [laughter] Mama, do you want Da or Pop? Who do you want? Da da or pop? Who do you want? Da da or pop? [crying] >> No. >> No. Do you want da da? You want pop? Do you want da da? You want pop? Do you want da da? You want pop? >> No way. Jose, >> I think. Oh, >> I think. Oh, >> you There is no mama. >> you There is no mama. >> you There is no mama. I'm so sorry. [crying] I'm so sorry. [crying] I'm so sorry. [crying] You have dad. Dad and you have two You have dad. Dad and you have two You have dad. Dad and you have two choices. choices. choices. >> No mama. >> No mama. >> No mama. >> No. >> [crying] >> [crying] >> But no, mama. >> But no, mama. >> But no, mama. Dad, dad or pop.

Dad, dad or pop. Dad, dad or pop. [crying] >> Well, of course, that's the video that >> Well, of course, that's the video that broke the internet. broke the internet. broke the internet. >> I mean, everybody was sharing and >> I mean, everybody was sharing and >> I mean, everybody was sharing and looking at that. looking at that. looking at that. >> And um you know, he there was such >> And um you know, he there was such >> And um you know, he there was such outrage because he's like, "Hey, it was outrage because he's like, "Hey, it was outrage because he's like, "Hey, it was just a funny video and the baby doesn't just a funny video and the baby doesn't just a funny video and the baby doesn't speak English. The baby doesn't know speak English. The baby doesn't know speak English. The baby doesn't know what they're saying." Um but the reality what they're saying." Um but the reality what they're saying." Um but the reality is that why is it and that's true. is that why is it and that's true. is that why is it and that's true. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But why is it that mama some form of >> But why is it that mama some form of >> But why is it that mama some form of mama is the word for mother in Chinese mama is the word for mother in Chinese mama is the word for mother in Chinese in Hindi in Hindi in Hindi >> in South Korean in most of the um you >> in South Korean in most of the um you >> in South Korean in most of the um you know western languages know western languages know western languages >> because it is the first it is the >> because it is the first it is the >> because it is the first it is the easiest sound for a baby to make. It's easiest sound for a baby to make. It's easiest sound for a baby to make. It's the it's the same movement as what the it's the same movement as what the it's the same movement as what they're going to be doing when they're they're going to be doing when they're they're going to be doing when they're nursing. And so it makes sense that the nursing. And so it makes sense that the nursing. And so it makes sense that the first sounds that a baby make first sounds that a baby make first sounds that a baby make universally are attached to the first universally are attached to the first universally are attached to the first person that the child is connected to. person that the child is connected to. person that the child is connected to. >> So what this child was doing was >> So what this child was doing was >> So what this child was doing was actually so much more profound than actually so much more profound than actually so much more profound than understanding what English is. Right?

understanding what English is. Right? understanding what English is. Right? They were voicing that there is a They were voicing that there is a They were voicing that there is a primary person that I don't have. I I primary person that I don't have. I I primary person that I don't have. I I have this innate instinctual have this innate instinctual have this innate instinctual response and the person that's supposed response and the person that's supposed response and the person that's supposed to be connected to it is gone. M to be connected to it is gone. M to be connected to it is gone. M >> the other thing that I noticed about >> the other thing that I noticed about >> the other thing that I noticed about this video is the dad is doing what dads this video is the dad is doing what dads this video is the dad is doing what dads do. They're being playful. do. They're being playful. do. They're being playful. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Right. They're they're being um they're >> Right. They're they're being um they're >> Right. They're they're being um they're more it's more tactile, more it's more tactile, more it's more tactile, >> what would a mom do in that situation? >> what would a mom do in that situation? >> what would a mom do in that situation? If if a mom had said, "Who do you want? If if a mom had said, "Who do you want? If if a mom had said, "Who do you want? Mama or dad?" And he went, "Mama." What Mama or dad?" And he went, "Mama." What Mama or dad?" And he went, "Mama." What would a mom do? Oh, baby, baby. Right? would a mom do? Oh, baby, baby. Right? would a mom do? Oh, baby, baby. Right? She would have pulled the baby really She would have pulled the baby really She would have pulled the baby really close. When I talk about how mothers are close. When I talk about how mothers are close. When I talk about how mothers are more intuitive, more emotionally more intuitive, more emotionally more intuitive, more emotionally connected, that's what I'm saying. That connected, that's what I'm saying. That connected, that's what I'm saying. That five-month old baby at that moment five-month old baby at that moment five-month old baby at that moment needed the person that would pull them needed the person that would pull them needed the person that would pull them in. They didn't need more um tactile in. They didn't need more um tactile in. They didn't need more um tactile excitement, bouncing. They needed the excitement, bouncing. They needed the excitement, bouncing. They needed the connection. Dads can't turn that on. connection. Dads can't turn that on. connection. Dads can't turn that on. Maternal love is not a switch that Maternal love is not a switch that Maternal love is not a switch that somebody can flip and say, "Now I'm somebody can flip and say, "Now I'm somebody can flip and say, "Now I'm going to be a mom." going to be a mom." going to be a mom." >> You will act like a man to that child.

>> You will act like a man to that child. >> You will act like a man to that child. It does not matter if you've got long It does not matter if you've got long It does not matter if you've got long hair or you're wearing an apron or hair or you're wearing an apron or hair or you're wearing an apron or you're more maternal. Men are going to you're more maternal. Men are going to you're more maternal. Men are going to act like men around children. And that's act like men around children. And that's act like men around children. And that's good good good >> as long as they have a mother that's >> as long as they have a mother that's >> as long as they have a mother that's going to act like women around children going to act like women around children going to act like women around children too. And that kid did not have it. too. And that kid did not have it. too. And that kid did not have it. >> And it's just, you know, that's such an >> And it's just, you know, that's such an >> And it's just, you know, that's such an example of these are human realities example of these are human realities example of these are human realities about children that you will never about children that you will never about children that you will never legislate away legislate away legislate away >> are never going to go away. Even if you >> are never going to go away. Even if you >> are never going to go away. Even if you justate a child in a third party, even justate a child in a third party, even justate a child in a third party, even if you take them to pride parades and if you take them to pride parades and if you take them to pride parades and you're around a diversity of families, you're around a diversity of families, you're around a diversity of families, that child has fundamental needs that that child has fundamental needs that that child has fundamental needs that culture, law, and technology are never culture, law, and technology are never culture, law, and technology are never going to override. going to override. going to override. >> That's right. Oh, any thoughts on that >> That's right. Oh, any thoughts on that >> That's right. Oh, any thoughts on that before we move on to the next video? before we move on to the next video? before we move on to the next video? >> Yeah, it's honestly hard to get out. Um, >> Yeah, it's honestly hard to get out. Um, >> Yeah, it's honestly hard to get out. Um, I don't know. Something about that I don't know. Something about that I don't know. Something about that video. video. video. Um, Um, Um, it hurts. it hurts. it hurts. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. I'm I'm honestly just kind of being raw I'm I'm honestly just kind of being raw I'm I'm honestly just kind of being raw right now. Um, I couldn't even watch it right now. Um, I couldn't even watch it right now. Um, I couldn't even watch it anymore at one point. anymore at one point. anymore at one point. Um yeah, I just double click something Um yeah, I just double click something Um yeah, I just double click something on you said Katie that I thought a lot on you said Katie that I thought a lot on you said Katie that I thought a lot lot that you've been sharing today has lot that you've been sharing today has lot that you've been sharing today has just come up multiple times of a lot of just come up multiple times of a lot of just come up multiple times of a lot of times in our culture and this it's funny times in our culture and this it's funny times in our culture and this it's funny how all these different issues related how all these different issues related how all these different issues related >> in our culture in our society there's >> in our culture in our society there's >> in our culture in our society there's such a resistance against the idea of such a resistance against the idea of such a resistance against the idea of complimentarianism complimentarianism complimentarianism >> against the idea that God has made us >> against the idea that God has made us >> against the idea that God has made us male and female and we are distinct.

male and female and we are distinct. male and female and we are distinct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> We're both created in his image. We both >> We're both created in his image. We both >> We're both created in his image. We both have value and and all those things but have value and and all those things but have value and and all those things but we are different. And in our culture and we are different. And in our culture and we are different. And in our culture and our society is like, "No, we're our society is like, "No, we're our society is like, "No, we're interchangeable. We're the same." And we interchangeable. We're the same." And we interchangeable. We're the same." And we think when we say that, it's actually, think when we say that, it's actually, think when we say that, it's actually, and especially men, we think, "Oh, we're and especially men, we think, "Oh, we're and especially men, we think, "Oh, we're valuing women more now." Because we're valuing women more now." Because we're valuing women more now." Because we're like, "No, we're the exact same." When like, "No, we're the exact same." When like, "No, we're the exact same." When actually you're devaluing women. actually you're devaluing women. actually you're devaluing women. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Because if I say that, hey, you and I >> Because if I say that, hey, you and I >> Because if I say that, hey, you and I are the exact same in every way. I'm are the exact same in every way. I'm are the exact same in every way. I'm basically saying there's nothing that basically saying there's nothing that basically saying there's nothing that you have to give to other people that I you have to give to other people that I you have to give to other people that I can't give to. can't give to. can't give to. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> When that is simply a lie from the pit >> When that is simply a lie from the pit >> When that is simply a lie from the pit of hell of hell of hell >> that God has customdesigned you to be >> that God has customdesigned you to be >> that God has customdesigned you to be able to give things to your husband and able to give things to your husband and able to give things to your husband and to your kids and to society and to the to your kids and to society and to the to your kids and to society and to the church that I will never be able to give church that I will never be able to give church that I will never be able to give as a man as a man as a man >> and vice versa. >> and vice versa. >> and vice versa. >> So that's why complimentarianism is not >> So that's why complimentarianism is not >> So that's why complimentarianism is not an ugly thing. It's a beautiful thing. I an ugly thing. It's a beautiful thing. I an ugly thing. It's a beautiful thing. I think it's something to your point that think it's something to your point that think it's something to your point that we all feel at a gut level. M we all feel at a gut level. M we all feel at a gut level. M >> so I think when you see something like >> so I think when you see something like >> so I think when you see something like that that to your point you said it so that that to your point you said it so that that to your point you said it so well that basically you've robbed that well that basically you've robbed that well that basically you've robbed that child of ever being able to receive what child of ever being able to receive what child of ever being able to receive what only his mother was designed to give. only his mother was designed to give. only his mother was designed to give. >> It's a tragedy. I would it's a tragedy.

>> It's a tragedy. I would it's a tragedy. >> It's a tragedy. I would it's a tragedy. So again, sorry if it's a little bit raw So again, sorry if it's a little bit raw So again, sorry if it's a little bit raw and coming out. It's just there's and coming out. It's just there's and coming out. It's just there's something about that video that just hit something about that video that just hit something about that video that just hit me hard today. me hard today. me hard today. >> Yeah. And that's why you know I think >> Yeah. And that's why you know I think >> Yeah. And that's why you know I think our culture has bought that lie and our culture has bought that lie and our culture has bought that lie and that's why you see a lot of uh young that's why you see a lot of uh young that's why you see a lot of uh young women trying to quote unquote compete women trying to quote unquote compete women trying to quote unquote compete with men because they think well we're with men because they think well we're with men because they think well we're the same so therefore this is even plain the same so therefore this is even plain the same so therefore this is even plain so we need to figure that out. And then so we need to figure that out. And then so we need to figure that out. And then you see a lot of men that don't know how you see a lot of men that don't know how you see a lot of men that don't know how to engage with women because they're to engage with women because they're to engage with women because they're saying, "Well, I'm just treating you saying, "Well, I'm just treating you saying, "Well, I'm just treating you like I would treat my bro and my dude." like I would treat my bro and my dude." like I would treat my bro and my dude." And that's just not how it works. And that's just not how it works. And that's just not how it works. >> That's right. We got one more video here >> That's right. We got one more video here >> That's right. We got one more video here and we're landing the plane here. and we're landing the plane here. and we're landing the plane here. >> 11-year-old Carter Wilds is about to get >> 11-year-old Carter Wilds is about to get >> 11-year-old Carter Wilds is about to get the Christmas surprise of a lifetime. the Christmas surprise of a lifetime. the Christmas surprise of a lifetime. >> This is from all of us. Give me all of >> This is from all of us. Give me all of >> This is from all of us. Give me all of us. us. us. >> That's his aunt, Leah Kipart, offering >> That's his aunt, Leah Kipart, offering >> That's his aunt, Leah Kipart, offering him a final gift to unwrap on Christmas him a final gift to unwrap on Christmas him a final gift to unwrap on Christmas morning. Inside this family photo of the morning. Inside this family photo of the morning. Inside this family photo of the Kiparts showing Carter's aunt, uncle, Kiparts showing Carter's aunt, uncle, Kiparts showing Carter's aunt, uncle, and his cousins along with a very and his cousins along with a very and his cousins along with a very special letter. Carter, this is our most special letter. Carter, this is our most special letter. Carter, this is our most recent picture of of our family. All of recent picture of of our family. All of recent picture of of our family. All of us would love for you to be in the next us would love for you to be in the next us would love for you to be in the next picture and to be part of our family.

picture and to be part of our family. picture and to be part of our family. Carter, would you like to be a part and Carter, would you like to be a part and Carter, would you like to be a part and be in our brother? >> [applause] >> [applause] >> his aunt and uncle surprising him with >> his aunt and uncle surprising him with >> his aunt and uncle surprising him with an adoption. an adoption. an adoption. >> We're going to adopt [snorts] you, >> We're going to adopt [snorts] you, >> We're going to adopt [snorts] you, Carter. Carter. Carter. >> Oh, thank you so much. >> Oh, thank you so much. >> Oh, thank you so much. >> His aunt tells us Carter's adoption >> His aunt tells us Carter's adoption >> His aunt tells us Carter's adoption status was nearing a deadline about to status was nearing a deadline about to status was nearing a deadline about to change so someone outside the family change so someone outside the family change so someone outside the family would be able to adopt him. would be able to adopt him. would be able to adopt him. >> This might have been the last time that >> This might have been the last time that >> This might have been the last time that we were ever going to see Carter and we were ever going to see Carter and we were ever going to see Carter and felt that it was really important for us felt that it was really important for us felt that it was really important for us I'm just going to open it up. [laughter] >> So, you know, we talk about the >> So, you know, we talk about the importance of a child's biological importance of a child's biological importance of a child's biological mother and father, and a lot of people mother and father, and a lot of people mother and father, and a lot of people say, "Well, you must be anti-adoption." say, "Well, you must be anti-adoption." say, "Well, you must be anti-adoption." >> And, you know, that's not the case >> And, you know, that's not the case >> And, you know, that's not the case because adoption is a situation where because adoption is a situation where because adoption is a situation where adults are doing hard things on behalf adults are doing hard things on behalf adults are doing hard things on behalf of children. M of children. M of children. M >> um and we it's actually a pretty >> um and we it's actually a pretty >> um and we it's actually a pretty potent way of describing the potent way of describing the potent way of describing the distinctions between um and the distinctions between um and the distinctions between um and the shortfalls of big fertility because in shortfalls of big fertility because in shortfalls of big fertility because in the world of adoption what you see is the world of adoption what you see is the world of adoption what you see is whenever when it's done according to whenever when it's done according to whenever when it's done according to kind of the guidance of adop of like kind of the guidance of adop of like kind of the guidance of adop of like adoption best practice the child is adoption best practice the child is adoption best practice the child is going to have their needs met they're going to have their needs met they're going to have their needs met they're going to have their needs met by people going to have their needs met by people going to have their needs met by people that are seeking to mend their wound that are seeking to mend their wound that are seeking to mend their wound right the child has a wound that child right the child has a wound that child right the child has a wound that child has a wound I don't know the backstory has a wound I don't know the backstory has a wound I don't know the backstory there, but obviously their own mother, there, but obviously their own mother, there, but obviously their own mother, his own mother and father were not able

his own mother and father were not able his own mother and father were not able or willing to do what he needed them to or willing to do what he needed them to or willing to do what he needed them to do. So other adults came and stepped in do. So other adults came and stepped in do. So other adults came and stepped in and said, "We're going to seek to mend and said, "We're going to seek to mend and said, "We're going to seek to mend your wound." In the world of big your wound." In the world of big your wound." In the world of big fertility, the people raising the child fertility, the people raising the child fertility, the people raising the child are the ones who inflicted the wound. are the ones who inflicted the wound. are the ones who inflicted the wound. They're the ones who decided that the They're the ones who decided that the They're the ones who decided that the mother or father would be out of the mother or father would be out of the mother or father would be out of the picture. They they literally paid the picture. They they literally paid the picture. They they literally paid the child's mother or father to stay out of child's mother or father to stay out of child's mother or father to stay out of their life forever. their life forever. their life forever. So there's one study that we have that So there's one study that we have that So there's one study that we have that compares outcomes between adopes and compares outcomes between adopes and compares outcomes between adopes and children created through sperm donation. children created through sperm donation. children created through sperm donation. So the sperm donor kids were raised by So the sperm donor kids were raised by So the sperm donor kids were raised by their biological mother, maybe as a their biological mother, maybe as a their biological mother, maybe as a single mother, maybe with a social single mother, maybe with a social single mother, maybe with a social father, maybe with another mother. The father, maybe with another mother. The father, maybe with another mother. The adoptes had neither mother nor father. adoptes had neither mother nor father. adoptes had neither mother nor father. But the adopes did better But the adopes did better But the adopes did better >> than the kids created through sperm >> than the kids created through sperm >> than the kids created through sperm donation. donation. donation. And I think because both of these kids And I think because both of these kids And I think because both of these kids have a wound, both of them have suffered have a wound, both of them have suffered have a wound, both of them have suffered loss, but the adoptive parents are in it loss, but the adoptive parents are in it loss, but the adoptive parents are in it with them, with them, with them, >> the child is not isolated in their >> the child is not isolated in their >> the child is not isolated in their grief. grief. grief. >> They're not asking those questions >> They're not asking those questions >> They're not asking those questions alone. You know, when when my adopted alone. You know, when when my adopted alone. You know, when when my adopted son asked me, son asked me, son asked me, you know, why did my birth parents leave you know, why did my birth parents leave you know, why did my birth parents leave me in a box in the town square?

me in a box in the town square? me in a box in the town square? >> You know, I said, I don't know, but that >> You know, I said, I don't know, but that >> You know, I said, I don't know, but that makes me really sad. I'm so sorry and I makes me really sad. I'm so sorry and I makes me really sad. I'm so sorry and I wish that I could have been there right wish that I could have been there right wish that I could have been there right away. I wish that you didn't have to away. I wish that you didn't have to away. I wish that you didn't have to spend that time without your Chinese mom spend that time without your Chinese mom spend that time without your Chinese mom or me. or me. or me. These kids over here, they have the same These kids over here, they have the same These kids over here, they have the same kind of questions. Why am I Where's my kind of questions. Why am I Where's my kind of questions. Why am I Where's my mother or father? Do they love me? Do mother or father? Do they love me? Do mother or father? Do they love me? Do they know that I exist? Would they want they know that I exist? Would they want they know that I exist? Would they want me if I were to write them a letter? But me if I were to write them a letter? But me if I were to write them a letter? But the response from these kids is often, the response from these kids is often, the response from these kids is often, you should just be grateful to be alive. you should just be grateful to be alive. you should just be grateful to be alive. You wouldn't exist without these You wouldn't exist without these You wouldn't exist without these technologies. You know, all you need is technologies. You know, all you need is technologies. You know, all you need is to be safe and loved. So these kids are to be safe and loved. So these kids are to be safe and loved. So these kids are supported in their grief. These kids supported in their grief. These kids supported in their grief. These kids aren't alone in their questions. These aren't alone in their questions. These aren't alone in their questions. These kids often have to mourn in isolation kids often have to mourn in isolation kids often have to mourn in isolation and that creates a real significant and that creates a real significant and that creates a real significant psychological burden for them. So psychological burden for them. So psychological burden for them. So adoption um is a just society's response adoption um is a just society's response adoption um is a just society's response to children who have lost their parents. to children who have lost their parents. to children who have lost their parents. It is adults doing hard things on behalf It is adults doing hard things on behalf It is adults doing hard things on behalf of children. of children. of children. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's the exact opposite of what's >> And it's the exact opposite of what's >> And it's the exact opposite of what's happening in the world of big fertility. happening in the world of big fertility. happening in the world of big fertility. >> Right. Well, I think so much of what >> Right. Well, I think so much of what >> Right. Well, I think so much of what you've been trying to say to us is that you've been trying to say to us is that you've been trying to say to us is that >> and really since we talked about the >> and really since we talked about the >> and really since we talked about the beginning of the idea of God being the beginning of the idea of God being the beginning of the idea of God being the designer and the creator is that we're designer and the creator is that we're designer and the creator is that we're talking about what should be the norm talking about what should be the norm talking about what should be the norm and what society is trying to do is to and what society is trying to do is to and what society is trying to do is to upend that norm and it's wreaking chaos upend that norm and it's wreaking chaos upend that norm and it's wreaking chaos >> and the data backs it up. But we also >> and the data backs it up. But we also >> and the data backs it up. But we also know that even though that God does have know that even though that God does have know that even though that God does have a design, we live in a sinful fallen a design, we live in a sinful fallen a design, we live in a sinful fallen world world world >> where unfortunately not every kid can be >> where unfortunately not every kid can be >> where unfortunately not every kid can be raised by their biological parents. And raised by their biological parents. And raised by their biological parents. And sometimes it's because of death. Because sometimes it's because of death. Because sometimes it's because of death. Because again, we live in a sinful world where again, we live in a sinful world where again, we live in a sinful world where there's death.

there's death. there's death. >> Sometimes it's because the sinful >> Sometimes it's because the sinful >> Sometimes it's because the sinful choices of one or even both parents. And choices of one or even both parents. And choices of one or even both parents. And in those cases, man, God calls us to in those cases, man, God calls us to in those cases, man, God calls us to step forward and do this beautiful thing step forward and do this beautiful thing step forward and do this beautiful thing of giving ourselves away and adopting a of giving ourselves away and adopting a of giving ourselves away and adopting a kid that, by the way, then ends up kid that, by the way, then ends up kid that, by the way, then ends up blessing those who are sacrificing. blessing those who are sacrificing. blessing those who are sacrificing. >> And uh I just shared this. I wasn't >> And uh I just shared this. I wasn't >> And uh I just shared this. I wasn't planning to, but um I'm not speaking planning to, but um I'm not speaking planning to, but um I'm not speaking from uh from theory on this one. Um, from uh from theory on this one. Um, from uh from theory on this one. Um, so my my wife and I dated in college and so my my wife and I dated in college and so my my wife and I dated in college and she uh she she broke up with me my she uh she she broke up with me my she uh she she broke up with me my junior year and had a season of uh junior year and had a season of uh junior year and had a season of uh season of walk away from the Lord, which season of walk away from the Lord, which season of walk away from the Lord, which I'm not tying those together. I'm just I'm not tying those together. I'm just I'm not tying those together. I'm just talking about sequentially. She broke up talking about sequentially. She broke up talking about sequentially. She broke up with me and they just had a season with me and they just had a season with me and they just had a season around then that she was just walking around then that she was just walking around then that she was just walking away from the Lord and um got pregnant. away from the Lord and um got pregnant. away from the Lord and um got pregnant. And um And um And um uh and the guy wanted nothing to do with uh and the guy wanted nothing to do with uh and the guy wanted nothing to do with him or with her. Mhm. him or with her. Mhm. him or with her. Mhm. >> Uh he wasn't a good guy. Uh not a guy >> Uh he wasn't a good guy. Uh not a guy >> Uh he wasn't a good guy. Uh not a guy that you would probably even want in the that you would probably even want in the that you would probably even want in the picture, but refused to sign birth picture, but refused to sign birth picture, but refused to sign birth certificate. Didn't visit or anything. certificate. Didn't visit or anything. certificate. Didn't visit or anything. And uh I found out and God has put in my And uh I found out and God has put in my And uh I found out and God has put in my heart to pray for my wife. Not then, but heart to pray for my wife. Not then, but heart to pray for my wife. Not then, but now. And uh for this only time I ever now. And uh for this only time I ever now. And uh for this only time I ever say her son is when I'm telling the say her son is when I'm telling the say her son is when I'm telling the story.

story. story. >> Uh but pray for her son. And I prayed >> Uh but pray for her son. And I prayed >> Uh but pray for her son. And I prayed for them from afar for about three or for them from afar for about three or for them from afar for about three or four years. And um God brought us back four years. And um God brought us back four years. And um God brought us back together in the same city and we just together in the same city and we just together in the same city and we just reconnected. Had no idea how she was reconnected. Had no idea how she was reconnected. Had no idea how she was doing um if she was still far from the doing um if she was still far from the doing um if she was still far from the Lord. But, uh, we got connected and, uh, Lord. But, uh, we got connected and, uh, Lord. But, uh, we got connected and, uh, we're just catching up. And the Lord had we're just catching up. And the Lord had we're just catching up. And the Lord had brought her back to himself, brought her back to himself, brought her back to himself, >> just restored her to fellowship. >> just restored her to fellowship. >> just restored her to fellowship. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, and I got to just share how I've been and I got to just share how I've been and I got to just share how I've been praying for them from afar for a few praying for them from afar for a few praying for them from afar for a few years. Well, God just rekindles that years. Well, God just rekindles that years. Well, God just rekindles that romantic interest there. And we just romantic interest there. And we just romantic interest there. And we just knew pretty quickly that this is where knew pretty quickly that this is where knew pretty quickly that this is where God was leading us. Um, and I had the God was leading us. Um, and I had the God was leading us. Um, and I had the honor and the privilege of my life of on honor and the privilege of my life of on honor and the privilege of my life of on our wedding day, uh, uh, my son, not our wedding day, uh, uh, my son, not our wedding day, uh, uh, my son, not biologically, but he is my son getting biologically, but he is my son getting biologically, but he is my son getting to walk my wife with her dad down the to walk my wife with her dad down the to walk my wife with her dad down the aisle and on the same day I became a aisle and on the same day I became a aisle and on the same day I became a husband and a daddy. husband and a daddy. husband and a daddy. >> And it's the honor of my life >> And it's the honor of my life >> And it's the honor of my life >> and Nate is my boy. Um, but to even what >> and Nate is my boy. Um, but to even what >> and Nate is my boy. Um, but to even what you were sharing, um, as he got older, you were sharing, um, as he got older, you were sharing, um, as he got older, you know, we had to tell him, hey, the you know, we had to tell him, hey, the you know, we had to tell him, hey, the the story behind that and he struggled the story behind that and he struggled the story behind that and he struggled and especially in his late teenage years and especially in his late teenage years and especially in his late teenage years and and I even remember there was a and and I even remember there was a and and I even remember there was a night where he had to be pretty blunt night where he had to be pretty blunt night where he had to be pretty blunt honest. He was just really struggling honest. He was just really struggling honest. He was just really struggling with, hey, like to your point like why'd with, hey, like to your point like why'd with, hey, like to your point like why'd my dad leave me? Because that's hard.

my dad leave me? Because that's hard. my dad leave me? Because that's hard. >> That's hard. But I just got to sit >> That's hard. But I just got to sit >> That's hard. But I just got to sit beside him in that car and he said some beside him in that car and he said some beside him in that car and he said some things that uh not not at me but just things that uh not not at me but just things that uh not not at me but just like you're not my biological dad. like you're not my biological dad. like you're not my biological dad. >> Yeah. And I just sat there and I >> Yeah. And I just sat there and I >> Yeah. And I just sat there and I listened to him and I just was able to listened to him and I just was able to listened to him and I just was able to say, "I love you, bro, say, "I love you, bro, say, "I love you, bro, >> and I'm here for you." And I was able to >> and I'm here for you." And I was able to >> and I'm here for you." And I was able to walk with him through that. And so I walk with him through that. And so I walk with him through that. And so I just want to share that to say this just want to share that to say this just want to share that to say this isn't theoretical. Um, and I'd also isn't theoretical. Um, and I'd also isn't theoretical. Um, and I'd also share that encourage you. I think you share that encourage you. I think you share that encourage you. I think you gave this encouragement earlier is that gave this encouragement earlier is that gave this encouragement earlier is that if you're out there, I would genuinely if you're out there, I would genuinely if you're out there, I would genuinely um encourage you to pray. Could God be um encourage you to pray. Could God be um encourage you to pray. Could God be calling you to be a part of this calling you to be a part of this calling you to be a part of this adoption process to have the same adoption process to have the same adoption process to have the same privilege and honor that I got to have privilege and honor that I got to have privilege and honor that I got to have for my son. for my son. for my son. >> So, thank you for sharing that, man. >> So, thank you for sharing that, man. >> So, thank you for sharing that, man. amazing. amazing. amazing. >> Um, I know you personally >> Um, I know you personally >> Um, I know you personally >> and I need you to know that you're a >> and I need you to know that you're a >> and I need you to know that you're a great pastor. great pastor. great pastor. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> You're a great husband. >> You're a great husband. >> You're a great husband. >> You're a great dad and I've seen you be >> You're a great dad and I've seen you be >> You're a great dad and I've seen you be that. So, bro, that's an example for me. that. So, bro, that's an example for me. that. So, bro, that's an example for me. >> Thanks, man. >> Thanks, man. >> Thanks, man. >> Yeah. Well done. Well done. >> Yeah. Well done. Well done. >> Yeah. Well done. Well done. >> That's amazing. >> That's amazing. >> That's amazing. >> Um Katie, any any any final thoughts? I >> Um Katie, any any any final thoughts? I >> Um Katie, any any any final thoughts? I got a couple things to say, but I want got a couple things to say, but I want got a couple things to say, but I want to make sure that you have any time. to make sure that you have any time. to make sure that you have any time. >> Well, just that adults doing hard things >> Well, just that adults doing hard things >> Well, just that adults doing hard things is kind of the way out of this, you is kind of the way out of this, you is kind of the way out of this, you know, and that he did suffer significant know, and that he did suffer significant know, and that he did suffer significant loss, loss, loss, >> but he didn't have to process it alone.

>> but he didn't have to process it alone. >> but he didn't have to process it alone. >> Yeah. you know, and you were able to >> Yeah. you know, and you were able to >> Yeah. you know, and you were able to bear his burden bear his burden bear his burden >> when he was asking the very human >> when he was asking the very human >> when he was asking the very human questions that children ask questions that children ask questions that children ask >> is like why and where and hard I think >> is like why and where and hard I think >> is like why and where and hard I think hard for so many of those kids because hard for so many of those kids because hard for so many of those kids because especially if it's that conversation's especially if it's that conversation's especially if it's that conversation's only happening in their head oftenimes only happening in their head oftenimes only happening in their head oftenimes it ends up manifesting as um it ends up manifesting as um it ends up manifesting as um self-depreciation, self-depreciation, self-depreciation, >> right? It must be me. There was >> right? It must be me. There was >> right? It must be me. There was something wrong with me. [clears throat] something wrong with me. [clears throat] something wrong with me. [clears throat] So, it's really important to have those So, it's really important to have those So, it's really important to have those redemptive adults in your life to say, redemptive adults in your life to say, redemptive adults in your life to say, "No, "No, "No, >> he's missing out on something great. >> he's missing out on something great. >> he's missing out on something great. >> You know, it wasn't you." >> You know, it wasn't you." >> You know, it wasn't you." >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> You're a great kid, but um but kids need >> You're a great kid, but um but kids need >> You're a great kid, but um but kids need other adults to bear those burdens with other adults to bear those burdens with other adults to bear those burdens with them. them. them. >> So, thank God he had >> So, thank God he had >> So, thank God he had >> his dad there to do it with him. >> his dad there to do it with him. >> his dad there to do it with him. >> Thank you, >> Thank you, >> Thank you, >> man. Here's what we would say, you know, >> man. Here's what we would say, you know, >> man. Here's what we would say, you know, as we wrap this conversation. Um what as we wrap this conversation. Um what as we wrap this conversation. Um what you believe about these issues matters. you believe about these issues matters. you believe about these issues matters. >> They are not inconsequential. your >> They are not inconsequential. your >> They are not inconsequential. your ideas, what you believe actually has ideas, what you believe actually has ideas, what you believe actually has real life consequences, not just for real life consequences, not just for real life consequences, not just for yourself. It's not all about you. It's yourself. It's not all about you. It's yourself. It's not all about you. It's actually about the people around you.

actually about the people around you. actually about the people around you. It's about your legacy, about your It's about your legacy, about your It's about your legacy, about your children. Um, and so, uh, God's order children. Um, and so, uh, God's order children. Um, and so, uh, God's order matters. matters. matters. >> That's why we look towards God's word, >> That's why we look towards God's word, >> That's why we look towards God's word, not towards the world to inform us on not towards the world to inform us on not towards the world to inform us on what we do, who we are as husbands, what we do, who we are as husbands, what we do, who we are as husbands, wives, parents. Uh, mom, you have a wives, parents. Uh, mom, you have a wives, parents. Uh, mom, you have a unique responsibility that is a gift uh unique responsibility that is a gift uh unique responsibility that is a gift uh to your family, to your husband, to your to your family, to your husband, to your to your family, to your husband, to your children. Dads, you have a God-given children. Dads, you have a God-given children. Dads, you have a God-given responsibility to love, serve, lead your responsibility to love, serve, lead your responsibility to love, serve, lead your family, take responsibility. And when we family, take responsibility. And when we family, take responsibility. And when we align with God's purposes, um, blessings align with God's purposes, um, blessings align with God's purposes, um, blessings happen and and we flourish. This is happen and and we flourish. This is happen and and we flourish. This is literally how God designed the world. literally how God designed the world. literally how God designed the world. Reality always wins. When we don't, Reality always wins. When we don't, Reality always wins. When we don't, chaos happens, disorder happens. And so, chaos happens, disorder happens. And so, chaos happens, disorder happens. And so, um, if somebody's listening right now um, if somebody's listening right now um, if somebody's listening right now and maybe you are in a spot where you're and maybe you are in a spot where you're and maybe you are in a spot where you're like, man, maybe I've been in a in a like, man, maybe I've been in a in a like, man, maybe I've been in a in a spot where I haven't done that. spot where I haven't done that. spot where I haven't done that. >> Um, we, this is why we love Jesus >> Um, we, this is why we love Jesus >> Um, we, this is why we love Jesus because there is hope in Christ for because there is hope in Christ for because there is hope in Christ for reconciliation and restoration. Um, this reconciliation and restoration. Um, this reconciliation and restoration. Um, this is literally the good news. The gospel is literally the good news. The gospel is literally the good news. The gospel is not just something that happens after is not just something that happens after is not just something that happens after you die. It is good news for you today you die. It is good news for you today you die. It is good news for you today that there is healing and hope and that there is healing and hope and that there is healing and hope and restoration. Um, the ultimate invitation restoration. Um, the ultimate invitation restoration. Um, the ultimate invitation in scripture is from Deuteronomy chapter in scripture is from Deuteronomy chapter in scripture is from Deuteronomy chapter 30 19. This day I call the heavens and 30 19. This day I call the heavens and 30 19. This day I call the heavens and earth as witnesses against you that I earth as witnesses against you that I earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death.

have set before you life and death. have set before you life and death. blessings and curses. Now, choose life blessings and curses. Now, choose life blessings and curses. Now, choose life so that you and your children may live so that you and your children may live so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, and that you may love the Lord your God, and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to listen to his voice, and hold fast to listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. Katie F, thank you for joining. him. Katie F, thank you for joining. him. Katie F, thank you for joining. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> it was such a joy to be with you guys. >> it was such a joy to be with you guys. >> it was such a joy to be with you guys. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.