The Art of Evangelistic Preaching | What Billy Graham Taught Me About Gospel Invitations

My job, your job, our job as preachers My job, your job, our job as preachers is to proclaim the gospel and leave the is to proclaim the gospel and leave the is to proclaim the gospel and leave the results in the hands of God. You know, results in the hands of God. You know, results in the hands of God. You know, it's his harvest. It's his work. Success it's his harvest. It's his work. Success it's his harvest. It's his work. Success in evangelism is faithfulness in giving in evangelism is faithfulness in giving in evangelism is faithfulness in giving the message. Hey everybody, I'm here with my friend Hey everybody, I'm here with my friend Bob Frank, pastor of Calvary Fellowship Bob Frank, pastor of Calvary Fellowship Bob Frank, pastor of Calvary Fellowship in Myiramar, Florida. So I just got to in Myiramar, Florida. So I just got to in Myiramar, Florida. So I just got to know Bob. He came to church recently and know Bob. He came to church recently and know Bob. He came to church recently and he said, "Can I talk to you about he said, "Can I talk to you about he said, "Can I talk to you about evangelism after the service and so we evangelism after the service and so we evangelism after the service and so we went in my office and we're talking. I went in my office and we're talking. I went in my office and we're talking. I said, "Bob, those are great questions. said, "Bob, those are great questions. said, "Bob, those are great questions. We should record this." And so that's We should record this." And so that's We should record this." And so that's what you're about to hear. We sat down what you're about to hear. We sat down what you're about to hear. We sat down and he asked me a lot of questions. Not and he asked me a lot of questions. Not and he asked me a lot of questions. Not just that a pastor would ask of another just that a pastor would ask of another just that a pastor would ask of another pastor, but just questions that a pastor, but just questions that a pastor, but just questions that a Christian would ask of another believer Christian would ask of another believer Christian would ask of another believer on how to share our faith. So, if you're on how to share our faith. So, if you're on how to share our faith. So, if you're a pastor, if you're a leader, you will a pastor, if you're a leader, you will a pastor, if you're a leader, you will benefit from what you're about to hear.

benefit from what you're about to hear. benefit from what you're about to hear. But if you're just a believer wanting to But if you're just a believer wanting to But if you're just a believer wanting to know how to be more effective in telling know how to be more effective in telling know how to be more effective in telling others about Jesus, I think this will be others about Jesus, I think this will be others about Jesus, I think this will be a meaningful conversation for you, too. a meaningful conversation for you, too. a meaningful conversation for you, too. So, check it out. [music] So, check it out. [music] So, check it out. [music] >> Okay. So, when did you realize that you >> Okay. So, when did you realize that you >> Okay. So, when did you realize that you had the gift of evangelism? had the gift of evangelism? had the gift of evangelism? >> I think I realized that I had a gift of >> I think I realized that I had a gift of >> I think I realized that I had a gift of evangelism. evangelism. evangelism. When I just went out and started sharing When I just went out and started sharing When I just went out and started sharing the gospel with people, you know, that's the gospel with people, you know, that's the gospel with people, you know, that's what the pastor told us. Pastor Chuck what the pastor told us. Pastor Chuck what the pastor told us. Pastor Chuck Smith said, "Go out and share your Smith said, "Go out and share your Smith said, "Go out and share your faith." And and I started doing that. faith." And and I started doing that. faith." And and I started doing that. And I I noticed that it it was not that And I I noticed that it it was not that And I I noticed that it it was not that hard for me. In fact, that's kind of hard for me. In fact, that's kind of hard for me. In fact, that's kind of what prompted me to write a little what prompted me to write a little what prompted me to write a little cartoon booklet called the Living Water cartoon booklet called the Living Water cartoon booklet called the Living Water Track because all the tracks, that's Track because all the tracks, that's Track because all the tracks, that's what we called them, that were out in what we called them, that were out in what we called them, that were out in those days are kind of hellfire and those days are kind of hellfire and those days are kind of hellfire and brimstone. In fact, I even remember brimstone. In fact, I even remember brimstone. In fact, I even remember reading one before I was a Christian reading one before I was a Christian reading one before I was a Christian when I was high on drugs. And I laughed when I was high on drugs. And I laughed when I was high on drugs. And I laughed at it. at it. at it. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So, I thought, I want to write something >> So, I thought, I want to write something >> So, I thought, I want to write something that I think people will read and not that I think people will read and not that I think people will read and not laugh at me, get their attention. So, I laugh at me, get their attention. So, I laugh at me, get their attention. So, I was a cartoonist. So, I drew this little was a cartoonist. So, I drew this little was a cartoonist. So, I drew this little track and I took it to Pastor Chuck track and I took it to Pastor Chuck track and I took it to Pastor Chuck Smith. If you saw the Jesus Revolution Smith. If you saw the Jesus Revolution Smith. If you saw the Jesus Revolution movie, that scene is in the film and movie, that scene is in the film and movie, that scene is in the film and that's very accurate. I showed it to him that's very accurate. I showed it to him that's very accurate. I showed it to him and I think I was hoping he might want and I think I was hoping he might want and I think I was hoping he might want to do something with it because it was to do something with it because it was to do something with it because it was based on one of his sermons and he was based on one of his sermons and he was based on one of his sermons and he was giving from John 4 and he said redraw it giving from John 4 and he said redraw it giving from John 4 and he said redraw it in this format and then we published it.

in this format and then we published it. in this format and then we published it. But then fast forward a bit, I'm hanging But then fast forward a bit, I'm hanging But then fast forward a bit, I'm hanging around at Calvary Chapel volunteering my around at Calvary Chapel volunteering my around at Calvary Chapel volunteering my time doing whatever uh needs to be done. time doing whatever uh needs to be done. time doing whatever uh needs to be done. And uh so Chuck wanted to do like these And uh so Chuck wanted to do like these And uh so Chuck wanted to do like these little Bible study classes, sort of like little Bible study classes, sort of like little Bible study classes, sort of like a little school that people could come a little school that people could come a little school that people could come to for a week, you know, and all of us to for a week, you know, and all of us to for a week, you know, and all of us would teach in different spaces. And I would teach in different spaces. And I would teach in different spaces. And I was just starting out. And he says, was just starting out. And he says, was just starting out. And he says, "Greg, you should teach a class on "Greg, you should teach a class on "Greg, you should teach a class on evangelism." I said, "Why?" He said, evangelism." I said, "Why?" He said, evangelism." I said, "Why?" He said, "Because you're an evangelist." "Because you're an evangelist." "Because you're an evangelist." >> And at that point, I thought I was a >> And at that point, I thought I was a >> And at that point, I thought I was a pastor. Which I was. But Chuck saw the pastor. Which I was. But Chuck saw the pastor. Which I was. But Chuck saw the gift in me even before I fully saw gift in me even before I fully saw gift in me even before I fully saw myself. I thought of my sharing the myself. I thought of my sharing the myself. I thought of my sharing the gospel as just doing what every gospel as just doing what every gospel as just doing what every Christian should do, you know, Christian should do, you know, Christian should do, you know, evangelizing. evangelizing. evangelizing. But there's a difference between But there's a difference between But there's a difference between evangelizing and being an evangelist. evangelizing and being an evangelist. evangelizing and being an evangelist. >> Every Christian may not be called to be >> Every Christian may not be called to be >> Every Christian may not be called to be an evangelist, but every Christian is an evangelist, but every Christian is an evangelist, but every Christian is called to evangelize. Paul said to called to evangelize. Paul said to called to evangelize. Paul said to Timothy, "Do the work of an evangelist." Timothy, "Do the work of an evangelist." Timothy, "Do the work of an evangelist." And the only person who was specifically And the only person who was specifically And the only person who was specifically identified as an evangelist was identified as an evangelist was identified as an evangelist was Philillip. And so it's not a common gift Philillip. And so it's not a common gift Philillip. And so it's not a common gift though I think Paul certainly had that though I think Paul certainly had that though I think Paul certainly had that gift as he obviously preached uh and gift as he obviously preached uh and gift as he obviously preached uh and Peter certainly had that gift day of Peter certainly had that gift day of Peter certainly had that gift day of Pentecost 3,000 believe later 5,000 Pentecost 3,000 believe later 5,000 Pentecost 3,000 believe later 5,000 believed but Philip specifically was believed but Philip specifically was believed but Philip specifically was called an evangelist and so it was called an evangelist and so it was called an evangelist and so it was pastor Chuck that really identified that pastor Chuck that really identified that pastor Chuck that really identified that gifting of evangelist in my life for the gifting of evangelist in my life for the gifting of evangelist in my life for the first time.

first time. first time. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> That's amazing. So you start teaching. >> That's amazing. So you start teaching. >> That's amazing. So you start teaching. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> And when you started teaching the Bible, >> And when you started teaching the Bible, >> And when you started teaching the Bible, was it immediate that you started giving was it immediate that you started giving was it immediate that you started giving invitations for people to come to know invitations for people to come to know invitations for people to come to know Jesus? Jesus? Jesus? >> Yeah, it's kind of the reverse of that. >> Yeah, it's kind of the reverse of that. >> Yeah, it's kind of the reverse of that. So, I started preaching with the So, I started preaching with the So, I started preaching with the Christian bands. I was traveling around Christian bands. I was traveling around Christian bands. I was traveling around with them and I would get up and with them and I would get up and with them and I would get up and evangelize. And so, that's what I now evangelize. And so, that's what I now evangelize. And so, that's what I now thought I was called to do, be an thought I was called to do, be an thought I was called to do, be an evangelist. And there was this little evangelist. And there was this little evangelist. And there was this little Bible study in Riverside, which is about Bible study in Riverside, which is about Bible study in Riverside, which is about 45 minutes from Orange County where I 45 minutes from Orange County where I 45 minutes from Orange County where I was living that needed someone to teach. was living that needed someone to teach. was living that needed someone to teach. And I went up and started doing it. And And I went up and started doing it. And And I went up and started doing it. And it began to grow. And I thought, I need it began to grow. And I thought, I need it began to grow. And I thought, I need to find a pastor to take this thing over to find a pastor to take this thing over to find a pastor to take this thing over >> because I'm going to go travel around >> because I'm going to go travel around >> because I'm going to go travel around and evangelize. Well, I couldn't find and evangelize. Well, I couldn't find and evangelize. Well, I couldn't find anyone to take it over. And pretty soon, anyone to take it over. And pretty soon, anyone to take it over. And pretty soon, people were calling me pastor, pastor people were calling me pastor, pastor people were calling me pastor, pastor Greg. And I'm thinking, I'm not a Greg. And I'm thinking, I'm not a Greg. And I'm thinking, I'm not a pastor. I'd only been a Christian two pastor. I'd only been a Christian two pastor. I'd only been a Christian two years. I was still learning. I'm still years. I was still learning. I'm still years. I was still learning. I'm still learning, but I was really still learning, but I was really still learning, but I was really still learning then. So, I was I I really was learning then. So, I was I I really was learning then. So, I was I I really was already naturally an evangelist. So, it already naturally an evangelist. So, it already naturally an evangelist. So, it was always very easy for me to sort of, was always very easy for me to sort of, was always very easy for me to sort of, you know, put an evangelistic hook at you know, put an evangelistic hook at you know, put an evangelistic hook at the end of a message. That was the easy the end of a message. That was the easy the end of a message. That was the easy part. The part where I had to really part. The part where I had to really part. The part where I had to really discipline myself was learning to teach.

discipline myself was learning to teach. discipline myself was learning to teach. Because when you're a traveling preacher Because when you're a traveling preacher Because when you're a traveling preacher or an evangelist, you know, you have one or an evangelist, you know, you have one or an evangelist, you know, you have one simple message. I I remember once simple message. I I remember once simple message. I I remember once hearing the story of Billy Graham and hearing the story of Billy Graham and hearing the story of Billy Graham and his longtime associate TWW Wilson. Billy his longtime associate TWW Wilson. Billy his longtime associate TWW Wilson. Billy was thinking about what he was going to was thinking about what he was going to was thinking about what he was going to preach. He said, "TW, I can't really preach. He said, "TW, I can't really preach. He said, "TW, I can't really think of what I should preach on think of what I should preach on think of what I should preach on tonight." And TWW said, "Billy, you only tonight." And TWW said, "Billy, you only tonight." And TWW said, "Billy, you only have one message." [laughter] have one message." [laughter] have one message." [laughter] You know, so technically an evangelist You know, so technically an evangelist You know, so technically an evangelist really only has one message. He may have really only has one message. He may have really only has one message. He may have a different text, different a different text, different a different text, different illustrations, but it's a message of the illustrations, but it's a message of the illustrations, but it's a message of the gospel. So I was doing that already and gospel. So I was doing that already and gospel. So I was doing that already and I had a few messages I would preach over I had a few messages I would preach over I had a few messages I would preach over and over again. But now to teach people and over again. But now to teach people and over again. But now to teach people to take them through a book of the Bible to take them through a book of the Bible to take them through a book of the Bible to let the text dictate the direction of to let the text dictate the direction of to let the text dictate the direction of the message that was a new discipline the message that was a new discipline the message that was a new discipline and to study because I was not a good and to study because I was not a good and to study because I was not a good student in school. So to build a library student in school. So to build a library student in school. So to build a library and to learn how to process information and to learn how to process information and to learn how to process information and organize it and then deliver it. and organize it and then deliver it. and organize it and then deliver it. That was where I that was where I needed That was where I that was where I needed That was where I that was where I needed to use discipline in my life to use discipline in my life to use discipline in my life >> and I had to really leave my comfort >> and I had to really leave my comfort >> and I had to really leave my comfort zone. Evangelizing was the easy part.

zone. Evangelizing was the easy part. zone. Evangelizing was the easy part. Teaching was the more challenging part. Teaching was the more challenging part. Teaching was the more challenging part. >> So it's been over 50 years >> So it's been over 50 years >> So it's been over 50 years >> since you've been preaching and >> since you've been preaching and >> since you've been preaching and pastoring. How would you say obviously pastoring. How would you say obviously pastoring. How would you say obviously the gospel doesn't change. How has your the gospel doesn't change. How has your the gospel doesn't change. How has your presentation of the gospel changed or presentation of the gospel changed or presentation of the gospel changed or maybe for lack of a better term become maybe for lack of a better term become maybe for lack of a better term become more polished um over the five decades? more polished um over the five decades? more polished um over the five decades? >> Yeah, it's a really good question. Well, >> Yeah, it's a really good question. Well, >> Yeah, it's a really good question. Well, the gospel doesn't change but culture the gospel doesn't change but culture the gospel doesn't change but culture does change does change does change >> and you can see that Paul took a >> and you can see that Paul took a >> and you can see that Paul took a different tat on Mars Hill than he took different tat on Mars Hill than he took different tat on Mars Hill than he took in other places. Sure. Paul spoke to in other places. Sure. Paul spoke to in other places. Sure. Paul spoke to such diverse audiences, governors, just such diverse audiences, governors, just such diverse audiences, governors, just general multitude, Jewish audiences, general multitude, Jewish audiences, general multitude, Jewish audiences, gentile audiences. Marcel of course was gentile audiences. Marcel of course was gentile audiences. Marcel of course was there in Athens, Greece. That was an there in Athens, Greece. That was an there in Athens, Greece. That was an intellectual capital of the world where intellectual capital of the world where intellectual capital of the world where the philosophers would gather and the philosophers would gather and the philosophers would gather and discuss the latest teachings. And Paul discuss the latest teachings. And Paul discuss the latest teachings. And Paul took the time to walk around, assess the took the time to walk around, assess the took the time to walk around, assess the culture in his message. He said, 'I was culture in his message. He said, 'I was culture in his message. He said, 'I was walking around your city and uh I walking around your city and uh I walking around your city and uh I noticed an altar erected to the unknown noticed an altar erected to the unknown noticed an altar erected to the unknown god. That's the one I want to the one I god. That's the one I want to the one I god. That's the one I want to the one I want to talk to you about today. It was want to talk to you about today. It was want to talk to you about today. It was said that there were more gods in Athens said that there were more gods in Athens said that there were more gods in Athens than there were people. They worshiped than there were people. They worshiped than there were people. They worshiped everything and everyone. So Paul took everything and everyone. So Paul took everything and everyone. So Paul took time to assess the culture. He even time to assess the culture. He even time to assess the culture. He even quotes one of their secular poets while quotes one of their secular poets while quotes one of their secular poets while he's speaking. As your own poets have he's speaking. As your own poets have he's speaking. As your own poets have said, in him we live and move and have said, in him we live and move and have said, in him we live and move and have our being. He was speaking to two basic our being. He was speaking to two basic our being. He was speaking to two basic groups of people, the Epicurans and the

groups of people, the Epicurans and the groups of people, the Epicurans and the Stoics. The Epicurans, Stoics. The Epicurans, Stoics. The Epicurans, simplified, believed in the pursuit of simplified, believed in the pursuit of simplified, believed in the pursuit of pleasure, sort of the party animals of pleasure, sort of the party animals of pleasure, sort of the party animals of the first century. The Stoics were more the first century. The Stoics were more the first century. The Stoics were more disciplined. Uh we might compare them to disciplined. Uh we might compare them to disciplined. Uh we might compare them to new age philosophy today. So he new age philosophy today. So he new age philosophy today. So he understood uh his audience and he understood uh his audience and he understood uh his audience and he adapted his message to them. Peter on adapted his message to them. Peter on adapted his message to them. Peter on the day of Pentecost is speaking to a the day of Pentecost is speaking to a the day of Pentecost is speaking to a largely Jewish audience. So you see him largely Jewish audience. So you see him largely Jewish audience. So you see him uh liberally quoting Old Testament uh liberally quoting Old Testament uh liberally quoting Old Testament scriptures. So I think you have to scriptures. So I think you have to scriptures. So I think you have to assess your audience. assess your audience. assess your audience. >> Uh and and I think as I've been doing >> Uh and and I think as I've been doing >> Uh and and I think as I've been doing this for a while, especially in this for a while, especially in this for a while, especially in crusades, I mean I was living in a crusades, I mean I was living in a crusades, I mean I was living in a different time when I did the first different time when I did the first different time when I did the first crusade. Uh Vanilla Ice had a hit on the crusade. Uh Vanilla Ice had a hit on the crusade. Uh Vanilla Ice had a hit on the radio. I think Seinfeld was still on radio. I think Seinfeld was still on radio. I think Seinfeld was still on television. George HW Bush was television. George HW Bush was television. George HW Bush was president. There was no such thing as an president. There was no such thing as an president. There was no such thing as an iPhone. The internet was coming is was iPhone. The internet was coming is was iPhone. The internet was coming is was in its infancy. So it was a different in its infancy. So it was a different in its infancy. So it was a different time. But but then there's similarities time. But but then there's similarities time. But but then there's similarities and the similarities are, you know, and the similarities are, you know, and the similarities are, you know, everyone is empty, everyone is lonely, everyone is empty, everyone is lonely, everyone is empty, everyone is lonely, everyone is guilty, everyone is afraid everyone is guilty, everyone is afraid everyone is guilty, everyone is afraid to die. These things will never change.

to die. These things will never change. to die. These things will never change. So, I'll often come back to similar So, I'll often come back to similar So, I'll often come back to similar themes in my crusade messages, but I I themes in my crusade messages, but I I themes in my crusade messages, but I I might draw from cultural things might draw from cultural things might draw from cultural things happening. I might do my version of happening. I might do my version of happening. I might do my version of quoting a secular philosopher. I might quoting a secular philosopher. I might quoting a secular philosopher. I might say, "This person said, this famous rock say, "This person said, this famous rock say, "This person said, this famous rock star said this, showing the emptiness of star said this, showing the emptiness of star said this, showing the emptiness of life." So, in the beginning of my life." So, in the beginning of my life." So, in the beginning of my message, I'll often make cultural message, I'll often make cultural message, I'll often make cultural connection. So, if you're an unbeliever, connection. So, if you're an unbeliever, connection. So, if you're an unbeliever, you know what I'm talking about. I'm not you know what I'm talking about. I'm not you know what I'm talking about. I'm not speaking a foreign language to you. I'm speaking a foreign language to you. I'm speaking a foreign language to you. I'm beginning to make my case, not using the beginning to make my case, not using the beginning to make my case, not using the Bible yet. I'm making my case uh with Bible yet. I'm making my case uh with Bible yet. I'm making my case uh with other sources, but then ultimately I other sources, but then ultimately I other sources, but then ultimately I recognize that the power of my message recognize that the power of my message recognize that the power of my message is in scripture, not in quoting secular is in scripture, not in quoting secular is in scripture, not in quoting secular sources. So that's just a bridge to get sources. So that's just a bridge to get sources. So that's just a bridge to get to the main message and the power of the to the main message and the power of the to the main message and the power of the message is in the gospel. I once asked message is in the gospel. I once asked message is in the gospel. I once asked Billy Graham when I was having lunch in Billy Graham when I was having lunch in Billy Graham when I was having lunch in his home, "If an older Billy could speak his home, "If an older Billy could speak his home, "If an older Billy could speak to a younger Billy, what would you tell to a younger Billy, what would you tell to a younger Billy, what would you tell yourself to preach on more?" He said, "I yourself to preach on more?" He said, "I yourself to preach on more?" He said, "I would preach more on the cross and on would preach more on the cross and on would preach more on the cross and on the blood of Christ because that's what the blood of Christ because that's what the blood of Christ because that's what the power is." And I think that's so the power is." And I think that's so the power is." And I think that's so true. I know that there's power in the true. I know that there's power in the true. I know that there's power in the simple message of the life, death, and simple message of the life, death, and simple message of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. And I know when I resurrection of Jesus. And I know when I resurrection of Jesus. And I know when I get to that part, there's just uh, you get to that part, there's just uh, you get to that part, there's just uh, you know, there's something special there.

know, there's something special there. know, there's something special there. That's why Paul said, "I'm not ashamed That's why Paul said, "I'm not ashamed That's why Paul said, "I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the of the gospel of Christ, for it is the of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation." Paul uses power of God unto salvation." Paul uses power of God unto salvation." Paul uses the Greek word dunamis, which means the Greek word dunamis, which means the Greek word dunamis, which means explosive dynamite power. So, it's a explosive dynamite power. So, it's a explosive dynamite power. So, it's a recognition of that. CH Spurgeon once recognition of that. CH Spurgeon once recognition of that. CH Spurgeon once said he always tries to make a beline to said he always tries to make a beline to said he always tries to make a beline to the cross. So, I think that's very the cross. So, I think that's very the cross. So, I think that's very important. And coming back to Billy important. And coming back to Billy important. And coming back to Billy again, again, again, >> I once saw him being interviewed by >> I once saw him being interviewed by >> I once saw him being interviewed by British interviewer David Frost. And British interviewer David Frost. And British interviewer David Frost. And Billy made a really important statement. Billy made a really important statement. Billy made a really important statement. He said, "I studied to be simple." He said, "I studied to be simple." He said, "I studied to be simple." >> So, the job of of an evangelist is to >> So, the job of of an evangelist is to >> So, the job of of an evangelist is to strip away anything that would strip away anything that would strip away anything that would complicate your message, anything that complicate your message, anything that complicate your message, anything that would clutter your message. Uh avoid um would clutter your message. Uh avoid um would clutter your message. Uh avoid um you know, peripheral issues that are you know, peripheral issues that are you know, peripheral issues that are important, but they're secondary to the important, but they're secondary to the important, but they're secondary to the message of the gospel. And so, you you message of the gospel. And so, you you message of the gospel. And so, you you want it to be understood by your want it to be understood by your want it to be understood by your listener. And you know when I think listener. And you know when I think listener. And you know when I think about the audience of you know the 70s about the audience of you know the 70s about the audience of you know the 70s when I first started preaching compared when I first started preaching compared when I first started preaching compared to the audience of today very different to the audience of today very different to the audience of today very different and far more biblically illiterate. Oh I and far more biblically illiterate. Oh I and far more biblically illiterate. Oh I would say almost completely biblically would say almost completely biblically would say almost completely biblically illiterate. So, I recognize that when I illiterate. So, I recognize that when I illiterate. So, I recognize that when I use, you know, a statement like, "Well, use, you know, a statement like, "Well, use, you know, a statement like, "Well, Adam and Eve in the garden or Noah's ark Adam and Eve in the garden or Noah's ark Adam and Eve in the garden or Noah's ark or um sin or you need to accept Christ."

or um sin or you need to accept Christ." or um sin or you need to accept Christ." Okay, great. But does a person know what Okay, great. But does a person know what Okay, great. But does a person know what I mean when I say you need to accept I mean when I say you need to accept I mean when I say you need to accept Christ? Christ? Christ? >> Does a person need to know what I mean >> Does a person need to know what I mean >> Does a person need to know what I mean when I say you're a sinner? And the when I say you're a sinner? And the when I say you're a sinner? And the answer is yes. So I find that nowadays answer is yes. So I find that nowadays answer is yes. So I find that nowadays kind of following Billy's advice, kind of following Billy's advice, kind of following Billy's advice, studying to be simple. I I explain studying to be simple. I I explain studying to be simple. I I explain everything. I don't assume my listener everything. I don't assume my listener everything. I don't assume my listener understands anything I'm saying. So I'll understands anything I'm saying. So I'll understands anything I'm saying. So I'll say, and tonight I'm going to give you say, and tonight I'm going to give you say, and tonight I'm going to give you an opportunity to put your faith in an opportunity to put your faith in an opportunity to put your faith in Christ. What does that mean? And I'll Christ. What does that mean? And I'll Christ. What does that mean? And I'll break it down. And I'll often weave my break it down. And I'll often weave my break it down. And I'll often weave my testimony. Even though, you know, it testimony. Even though, you know, it testimony. Even though, you know, it happened a long time ago, I still weave happened a long time ago, I still weave happened a long time ago, I still weave my testimony how I came to Christ. And my testimony how I came to Christ. And my testimony how I came to Christ. And because that's a way to kind of put because that's a way to kind of put because that's a way to kind of put myself in the shoes of my listener cuz I myself in the shoes of my listener cuz I myself in the shoes of my listener cuz I think they think, "Oh, you're some think they think, "Oh, you're some think they think, "Oh, you're some preacher. You were raised in a Christian preacher. You were raised in a Christian preacher. You were raised in a Christian home. You live in a Christian bubble." home. You live in a Christian bubble." home. You live in a Christian bubble." And when I tell them my mother was And when I tell them my mother was And when I tell them my mother was married and divorced seven times, I came married and divorced seven times, I came married and divorced seven times, I came from an alcohol alcoholic home. I myself from an alcohol alcoholic home. I myself from an alcohol alcoholic home. I myself used drugs for a time. It it shows them used drugs for a time. It it shows them used drugs for a time. It it shows them that I'm from the same world that that I'm from the same world that that I'm from the same world that they're from.

they're from. they're from. >> And success builds walls. Failures build >> And success builds walls. Failures build >> And success builds walls. Failures build bridges. bridges. bridges. So by that I mean I if my life looks so So by that I mean I if my life looks so So by that I mean I if my life looks so perfect that's so successful that perfect that's so successful that perfect that's so successful that doesn't relate to anyone. Failure where doesn't relate to anyone. Failure where doesn't relate to anyone. Failure where I talk about my own struggles my own I talk about my own struggles my own I talk about my own struggles my own challenges how I came to faith that challenges how I came to faith that challenges how I came to faith that builds a bridge to the person I'm builds a bridge to the person I'm builds a bridge to the person I'm speaking to. Very long answer to your speaking to. Very long answer to your speaking to. Very long answer to your question. No it's great. That's that's question. No it's great. That's that's question. No it's great. That's that's so I want to kind of shift a little bit so I want to kind of shift a little bit so I want to kind of shift a little bit and talk about and talk about and talk about >> senior pastors in churches and how they >> senior pastors in churches and how they >> senior pastors in churches and how they can do evangelism. So can do evangelism. So can do evangelism. So >> going back five decades >> going back five decades >> going back five decades >> were you from the very beginning >> were you from the very beginning >> were you from the very beginning >> giving some type of invitation every >> giving some type of invitation every >> giving some type of invitation every week? Uh or was it every other week or week? Uh or was it every other week or week? Uh or was it every other week or was it hey I'm looking out hey I know was it hey I'm looking out hey I know was it hey I'm looking out hey I know everybody I've been in everybody's home. everybody I've been in everybody's home. everybody I've been in everybody's home. Um, was there a stage where you said, Um, was there a stage where you said, Um, was there a stage where you said, "Hey, I don't know everybody here. I "Hey, I don't know everybody here. I "Hey, I don't know everybody here. I need to make sure that I'm giving people need to make sure that I'm giving people need to make sure that I'm giving people an opportunity to get to know Jesus." an opportunity to get to know Jesus." an opportunity to get to know Jesus." >> I pretty much always have given >> I pretty much always have given >> I pretty much always have given invitations, but we have always sought invitations, but we have always sought invitations, but we have always sought to build an evangelistic culture. So, to build an evangelistic culture. So, to build an evangelistic culture. So, speaking to pastors, you need to build speaking to pastors, you need to build speaking to pastors, you need to build an evangelistic culture in your church.

an evangelistic culture in your church. an evangelistic culture in your church. And that doesn't happen automatically. And that doesn't happen automatically. And that doesn't happen automatically. So, what does that mean? I would say So, what does that mean? I would say So, what does that mean? I would say first be sharing your faith yourself. first be sharing your faith yourself. first be sharing your faith yourself. you know, just you as a pastor, you're you know, just you as a pastor, you're you know, just you as a pastor, you're first a Christian. So when you're out first a Christian. So when you're out first a Christian. So when you're out and about just living your life, doing and about just living your life, doing and about just living your life, doing what you do, look for opportunities to what you do, look for opportunities to what you do, look for opportunities to share your faith. And I like to share share your faith. And I like to share share your faith. And I like to share those stories in the pulpit. So in those stories in the pulpit. So in those stories in the pulpit. So in effect, I'm modeling for people what I effect, I'm modeling for people what I effect, I'm modeling for people what I do. And I don't just tell them my do. And I don't just tell them my do. And I don't just tell them my successful stories. I tell them about my successful stories. I tell them about my successful stories. I tell them about my failures. Yeah, I had this conversation failures. Yeah, I had this conversation failures. Yeah, I had this conversation and the guy wasn't interested or I and the guy wasn't interested or I and the guy wasn't interested or I didn't have the right answer for his didn't have the right answer for his didn't have the right answer for his question. you know, so they understand question. you know, so they understand question. you know, so they understand that I don't always do it perfectly that I don't always do it perfectly that I don't always do it perfectly because I don't, [laughter] because I don't, [laughter] because I don't, [laughter] you know, so I think start first to do you know, so I think start first to do you know, so I think start first to do that. But then also I I emphasize the that. But then also I I emphasize the that. But then also I I emphasize the importance of sharing our faith to our importance of sharing our faith to our importance of sharing our faith to our people and I encourage them to bring people and I encourage them to bring people and I encourage them to bring people to church that don't know the people to church that don't know the people to church that don't know the Lord. And so when you give an invitation Lord. And so when you give an invitation Lord. And so when you give an invitation and maybe one of your congregants and maybe one of your congregants and maybe one of your congregants brought someone who accepts Christ, they brought someone who accepts Christ, they brought someone who accepts Christ, they get very excited about that. And I know get very excited about that. And I know get very excited about that. And I know that invitations, and by an invitation, that invitations, and by an invitation, that invitations, and by an invitation, I mean giving an opportunity for a I mean giving an opportunity for a I mean giving an opportunity for a person to come to Christ, can be risky.

person to come to Christ, can be risky. person to come to Christ, can be risky. But hey, you know, if you're going to But hey, you know, if you're going to But hey, you know, if you're going to take a risk, what a great thing to take take a risk, what a great thing to take take a risk, what a great thing to take it on. And when people do come to it on. And when people do come to it on. And when people do come to Christ, that is going to be a blessing. Christ, that is going to be a blessing. Christ, that is going to be a blessing. New converts are the lifeblood of the New converts are the lifeblood of the New converts are the lifeblood of the church. Show me a church that does not church. Show me a church that does not church. Show me a church that does not have a constant flow of new believers have a constant flow of new believers have a constant flow of new believers coming in, and I'll show you show you a coming in, and I'll show you show you a coming in, and I'll show you show you a church that's stagnating. So, we have a church that's stagnating. So, we have a church that's stagnating. So, we have a choice. We can evangelize or fossilize. choice. We can evangelize or fossilize. choice. We can evangelize or fossilize. We must evangelize. It's part of the We must evangelize. It's part of the We must evangelize. It's part of the calling of the church. I see the purpose calling of the church. I see the purpose calling of the church. I see the purpose of the church as three-fold. We're here of the church as three-fold. We're here of the church as three-fold. We're here for the glorification of God. We're here for the glorification of God. We're here for the glorification of God. We're here for the edification of the saints. And for the edification of the saints. And for the edification of the saints. And we're here for the evangelization of the we're here for the evangelization of the we're here for the evangelization of the world. Uh upward, inward, outward. So, world. Uh upward, inward, outward. So, world. Uh upward, inward, outward. So, we're here to glorify God, build one we're here to glorify God, build one we're here to glorify God, build one another up, but also to evangelize. And another up, but also to evangelize. And another up, but also to evangelize. And so develop an evangelistic culture in so develop an evangelistic culture in so develop an evangelistic culture in your church. And then yes, give your church. And then yes, give your church. And then yes, give invitations. And it won't always work. invitations. And it won't always work. invitations. And it won't always work. And and sometimes a lot of people will And and sometimes a lot of people will And and sometimes a lot of people will come forward. Sometimes only a handful come forward. Sometimes only a handful come forward. Sometimes only a handful of people will come forward. And there of people will come forward. And there of people will come forward. And there might even be a time when no one comes might even be a time when no one comes might even be a time when no one comes forward. And by the way, there's a lot forward. And by the way, there's a lot forward. And by the way, there's a lot of ways to skin a cat, so to speak. You of ways to skin a cat, so to speak. You of ways to skin a cat, so to speak. You know, there a lot of ways to give an know, there a lot of ways to give an know, there a lot of ways to give an invitation. You can have people get up invitation. You can have people get up invitation. You can have people get up out of their seat, walk forward, and out of their seat, walk forward, and out of their seat, walk forward, and pray. I do that in every crusade. But I pray. I do that in every crusade. But I pray. I do that in every crusade. But I don't do it in every church service. You don't do it in every church service. You don't do it in every church service. You can have a person raise their hand and can have a person raise their hand and can have a person raise their hand and lead them in a prayer from the pulpit.

lead them in a prayer from the pulpit. lead them in a prayer from the pulpit. You can say, uh, go to a room over to You can say, uh, go to a room over to You can say, uh, go to a room over to the side if you would like to accept the side if you would like to accept the side if you would like to accept Christ. I don't think that's as Christ. I don't think that's as Christ. I don't think that's as important as giving people an important as giving people an important as giving people an opportunity to give their life to opportunity to give their life to opportunity to give their life to Christ. I was in New York once listening Christ. I was in New York once listening Christ. I was in New York once listening to a very well-known preacher. He gave to a very well-known preacher. He gave to a very well-known preacher. He gave one of the best messages I've ever heard one of the best messages I've ever heard one of the best messages I've ever heard of the prodigal son. It was literally of the prodigal son. It was literally of the prodigal son. It was literally just flawless. And it was the perfect just flawless. And it was the perfect just flawless. And it was the perfect message to give an invitation, but message to give an invitation, but message to give an invitation, but instead when he was done, he just prayed instead when he was done, he just prayed instead when he was done, he just prayed and walked off the stage. And I thought, and walked off the stage. And I thought, and walked off the stage. And I thought, what a missed opportunity. I believe what a missed opportunity. I believe what a missed opportunity. I believe people would have accepted Christ right people would have accepted Christ right people would have accepted Christ right there on the spot. So I say, develop an there on the spot. So I say, develop an there on the spot. So I say, develop an evangelistic culture. Newcomers are the evangelistic culture. Newcomers are the evangelistic culture. Newcomers are the lifeblood of the church. And give lifeblood of the church. And give lifeblood of the church. And give invitations. I have one friend who's a invitations. I have one friend who's a invitations. I have one friend who's a pastor. He's in heaven now, but he said, pastor. He's in heaven now, but he said, pastor. He's in heaven now, but he said, "I never really felt called to be an "I never really felt called to be an "I never really felt called to be an evangelist, but I wanted to do it more." evangelist, but I wanted to do it more." evangelist, but I wanted to do it more." and I literally listened to your and I literally listened to your and I literally listened to your messages and I copied what you said and messages and I copied what you said and messages and I copied what you said and said it verbatim for the first few weeks said it verbatim for the first few weeks said it verbatim for the first few weeks and then it became more natural to me and then it became more natural to me and then it became more natural to me and I started just doing it on my own.

and I started just doing it on my own. and I started just doing it on my own. That's a good thing to do. I did the That's a good thing to do. I did the That's a good thing to do. I did the same thing with Billy Graham, you know, same thing with Billy Graham, you know, same thing with Billy Graham, you know, because I had the opportunity to spend a because I had the opportunity to spend a because I had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with him because as he was lot of time with him because as he was lot of time with him because as he was ending his crusade ministry, I was ending his crusade ministry, I was ending his crusade ministry, I was beginning mine. And so he wanted to sort beginning mine. And so he wanted to sort beginning mine. And so he wanted to sort of freshen his messages with of freshen his messages with of freshen his messages with illustrations that were more relevant to illustrations that were more relevant to illustrations that were more relevant to the culture of that day. And so I the culture of that day. And so I the culture of that day. And so I started writing illustrations for started writing illustrations for started writing illustrations for Billy's sermons. I spent a lot of time Billy's sermons. I spent a lot of time Billy's sermons. I spent a lot of time with him, traveling with him. And I with him, traveling with him. And I with him, traveling with him. And I constantly was asking him questions. And constantly was asking him questions. And constantly was asking him questions. And I just sat on that stage and I analyzed I just sat on that stage and I analyzed I just sat on that stage and I analyzed everything that he did. You know, he everything that he did. You know, he everything that he did. You know, he gave the message. I I watched him pray. gave the message. I I watched him pray. gave the message. I I watched him pray. I watched him come back and give a I watched him come back and give a I watched him come back and give a second or third appeal. I was with him second or third appeal. I was with him second or third appeal. I was with him after it was over with. I was there when after it was over with. I was there when after it was over with. I was there when he was going in. And I once asked him, he was going in. And I once asked him, he was going in. And I once asked him, "What are you feeling when you're giving "What are you feeling when you're giving "What are you feeling when you're giving an invitation?" And his response was, "I an invitation?" And his response was, "I an invitation?" And his response was, "I feel like power is going out of me." M feel like power is going out of me." M feel like power is going out of me." M >> and I understood that because you know >> and I understood that because you know >> and I understood that because you know what's a really blessed moment for what's a really blessed moment for what's a really blessed moment for people in the stadium or arena or people in the stadium or arena or people in the stadium or arena or wherever you're having your event is is wherever you're having your event is is wherever you're having your event is is a a moment of battle for the preacher a a moment of battle for the preacher a a moment of battle for the preacher because you're literally in the because you're literally in the because you're literally in the epicenter of the spiritual battle. The epicenter of the spiritual battle. The epicenter of the spiritual battle. The devil's attacking you, but the Holy devil's attacking you, but the Holy devil's attacking you, but the Holy Spirit is at work. And I think people Spirit is at work. And I think people Spirit is at work. And I think people don't realize that. That's why they don't realize that. That's why they don't realize that. That's why they really need to pray for the preacher, really need to pray for the preacher, really need to pray for the preacher, you know, because I've had people say, you know, because I've had people say, you know, because I've had people say, "Wow, it must be really gratifying "Wow, it must be really gratifying "Wow, it must be really gratifying egotistically to stand up in front of egotistically to stand up in front of egotistically to stand up in front of all those people and preach." I would all those people and preach." I would all those people and preach." I would say it's the opposite because I feel a say it's the opposite because I feel a say it's the opposite because I feel a great responsibility to get it right.

great responsibility to get it right. great responsibility to get it right. And I feel like I I don't, you know, And I feel like I I don't, you know, And I feel like I I don't, you know, this may be the one time that person this may be the one time that person this may be the one time that person comes to an event like this to hear the comes to an event like this to hear the comes to an event like this to hear the gospel. I just honestly I don't want to gospel. I just honestly I don't want to gospel. I just honestly I don't want to blow it. And so I feel a lot of pressure blow it. And so I feel a lot of pressure blow it. And so I feel a lot of pressure to do it right to do it right to do it right >> and a lot of responsibility to get it >> and a lot of responsibility to get it >> and a lot of responsibility to get it right as well. right as well. right as well. >> So I was here this past Sunday >> So I was here this past Sunday >> So I was here this past Sunday >> and uh when we talked for a bit and I >> and uh when we talked for a bit and I >> and uh when we talked for a bit and I met a guy named Larry who uh who attends met a guy named Larry who uh who attends met a guy named Larry who uh who attends here has come to know Jesus a few years here has come to know Jesus a few years here has come to know Jesus a few years ago ago ago >> and is >> and is >> and is >> is he an older guy? >> is he an older guy? >> is he an older guy? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I know that's Larry. Yeah. 88 >> Yeah. I know that's Larry. Yeah. 88 >> Yeah. I know that's Larry. Yeah. 88 years old. Uh he is so fired up for years old. Uh he is so fired up for years old. Uh he is so fired up for evangelism has made it his personal evangelism has made it his personal evangelism has made it his personal mission mission mission >> to bring every human being he comes into >> to bring every human being he comes into >> to bring every human being he comes into contact with to bring them to hear the contact with to bring them to hear the contact with to bring them to hear the gospel and gospel and gospel and >> I see that as a direct result not only >> I see that as a direct result not only >> I see that as a direct result not only of his conversion personal testimony of his conversion personal testimony of his conversion personal testimony >> but being part of this culture. >> but being part of this culture. >> but being part of this culture. >> Yeah. and uh you know sitting in the >> Yeah. and uh you know sitting in the >> Yeah. and uh you know sitting in the service on Sunday and I think it was service on Sunday and I think it was service on Sunday and I think it was your children's pastor who came out and your children's pastor who came out and your children's pastor who came out and said hey we did VBS this week 200 kids said hey we did VBS this week 200 kids said hey we did VBS this week 200 kids made a profession of faith made a profession of faith made a profession of faith >> so can you talk a little bit about and I >> so can you talk a little bit about and I >> so can you talk a little bit about and I know you mentioned it about creating a know you mentioned it about creating a know you mentioned it about creating a culture culture culture >> how does a pastor and I know this is >> how does a pastor and I know this is >> how does a pastor and I know this is might be a little difficult because you might be a little difficult because you might be a little difficult because you you do have such a strong gift of you do have such a strong gift of you do have such a strong gift of evangelism evangelism evangelism >> but how does a how does a pastor create >> but how does a how does a pastor create >> but how does a how does a pastor create an evangelistic culture when he doesn't an evangelistic culture when he doesn't an evangelistic culture when he doesn't see himself as an evangelist see himself as an evangelist see himself as an evangelist >> well I I think you know here's the >> well I I think you know here's the >> well I I think you know here's the genius of Chuck Smith. Chuck Smith genius of Chuck Smith. Chuck Smith genius of Chuck Smith. Chuck Smith wanted to be an evangelist and go God wanted to be an evangelist and go God wanted to be an evangelist and go God called him to be a pastor. And so he

called him to be a pastor. And so he called him to be a pastor. And so he found other people who were gifted at found other people who were gifted at found other people who were gifted at evangelism and empowered them. It evangelism and empowered them. It evangelism and empowered them. It started with Lonnie Frisbee. So if you started with Lonnie Frisbee. So if you started with Lonnie Frisbee. So if you saw the Jesus Revolution film, here's saw the Jesus Revolution film, here's saw the Jesus Revolution film, here's Lonnie who couldn't be more different Lonnie who couldn't be more different Lonnie who couldn't be more different than Chuck. than Chuck. than Chuck. >> Uh but an electric personality, a clear >> Uh but an electric personality, a clear >> Uh but an electric personality, a clear gift of evangelist. He was the guy who gift of evangelist. He was the guy who gift of evangelist. He was the guy who was preaching when I accepted Christ on was preaching when I accepted Christ on was preaching when I accepted Christ on my high school campus. So Chuck gave a my high school campus. So Chuck gave a my high school campus. So Chuck gave a platform to Lonnie and the two of them platform to Lonnie and the two of them platform to Lonnie and the two of them together were like nitro meeting together were like nitro meeting together were like nitro meeting glycerin. You know, we kind of came for glycerin. You know, we kind of came for glycerin. You know, we kind of came for Lonnie and we stayed for Chuck. So I Lonnie and we stayed for Chuck. So I Lonnie and we stayed for Chuck. So I would say if you're a pastor and you would say if you're a pastor and you would say if you're a pastor and you don't feel you have the gift of the don't feel you have the gift of the don't feel you have the gift of the evangelist, fine. You still should evangelist, fine. You still should evangelist, fine. You still should evangelize. You still should give evangelize. You still should give evangelize. You still should give invitations in your messages. But try to invitations in your messages. But try to invitations in your messages. But try to find someone who is gifted in that way find someone who is gifted in that way find someone who is gifted in that way and help him. And by the way, there's a and help him. And by the way, there's a and help him. And by the way, there's a lot of gifted evangelists that are not lot of gifted evangelists that are not lot of gifted evangelists that are not preachers. Like take Larry as an preachers. Like take Larry as an preachers. Like take Larry as an example. Larry runs a luxury eyewear example. Larry runs a luxury eyewear example. Larry runs a luxury eyewear store. And so he comes into contact with store. And so he comes into contact with store. And so he comes into contact with very affluent people that buy his very affluent people that buy his very affluent people that buy his product. He uses his platform to talk product. He uses his platform to talk product. He uses his platform to talk about his faith. I would say Larry is an about his faith. I would say Larry is an about his faith. I would say Larry is an evangelist. He doesn't [clears throat] evangelist. He doesn't [clears throat] evangelist. He doesn't [clears throat] preach from a pulpit. He preaches from preach from a pulpit. He preaches from preach from a pulpit. He preaches from behind a counter filled with sunglasses behind a counter filled with sunglasses behind a counter filled with sunglasses and other things, but he uses his and other things, but he uses his and other things, but he uses his position, his platform, uh, to do that.

position, his platform, uh, to do that. position, his platform, uh, to do that. And so, some of the best evangelists And so, some of the best evangelists And so, some of the best evangelists that I've met are just good at that I've met are just good at that I've met are just good at one-on-one preaching. There are people one-on-one preaching. There are people one-on-one preaching. There are people that I've met that do it far better than that I've met that do it far better than that I've met that do it far better than I do one-on-one, you know, because they I do one-on-one, you know, because they I do one-on-one, you know, because they have a natural way of talking to people. have a natural way of talking to people. have a natural way of talking to people. So, it's not just people preaching from So, it's not just people preaching from So, it's not just people preaching from a pulpit. Evangelism is just sharing a pulpit. Evangelism is just sharing a pulpit. Evangelism is just sharing your faith in in whatever place you do your faith in in whatever place you do your faith in in whatever place you do that. Well, you know, I mean, coming that. Well, you know, I mean, coming that. Well, you know, I mean, coming back to Philillip, uh we see Philillip back to Philillip, uh we see Philillip back to Philillip, uh we see Philillip sharing the gospel with the man from sharing the gospel with the man from sharing the gospel with the man from Ethiopia. That's one-on-one. Ethiopia. That's one-on-one. Ethiopia. That's one-on-one. >> And so we so we have that form of >> And so we so we have that form of >> And so we so we have that form of evangelism. Then we have Peter on the evangelism. Then we have Peter on the evangelism. Then we have Peter on the day of Pentecost, one guy speaking to day of Pentecost, one guy speaking to day of Pentecost, one guy speaking to thousands. Because sometimes people thousands. Because sometimes people thousands. Because sometimes people build a false dichotomy. In other words, build a false dichotomy. In other words, build a false dichotomy. In other words, they say, "Well, I'm not into mass they say, "Well, I'm not into mass they say, "Well, I'm not into mass evangelism." evangelism." evangelism." Well, God's into mass evangelism. What Well, God's into mass evangelism. What Well, God's into mass evangelism. What do you call the day of Pentecost? I'm do you call the day of Pentecost? I'm do you call the day of Pentecost? I'm into personal evangelism. Well, I'm into into personal evangelism. Well, I'm into into personal evangelism. Well, I'm into that, too. God's into both. God wants that, too. God's into both. God wants that, too. God's into both. God wants both. And if there's one thing that both. And if there's one thing that both. And if there's one thing that makes God happy, it's when people come makes God happy, it's when people come makes God happy, it's when people come into the kingdom. Because Jesus said, "I into the kingdom. Because Jesus said, "I into the kingdom. Because Jesus said, "I say to you, there's joy in the presence say to you, there's joy in the presence say to you, there's joy in the presence of the angels over one sinner that comes of the angels over one sinner that comes of the angels over one sinner that comes to repentance." And you know Jesus was to repentance." And you know Jesus was to repentance." And you know Jesus was in Luke 15, he talks about a woman who in Luke 15, he talks about a woman who in Luke 15, he talks about a woman who lost a coin. He talks about a shepherd lost a coin. He talks about a shepherd lost a coin. He talks about a shepherd who lost a sheep. And he talks about a who lost a sheep. And he talks about a who lost a sheep. And he talks about a father who lost a son. And the father who lost a son. And the father who lost a son. And the reoccurring theme that he comes back to reoccurring theme that he comes back to reoccurring theme that he comes back to over and over in those parables is, "And over and over in those parables is, "And over and over in those parables is, "And I say to you, there is joy in the I say to you, there is joy in the I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels over one sinner presence of the angels over one sinner presence of the angels over one sinner that comes to repentance." So it's just

that comes to repentance." So it's just that comes to repentance." So it's just showing the joy of heaven and and the showing the joy of heaven and and the showing the joy of heaven and and the pleasure it brings God when we win pleasure it brings God when we win pleasure it brings God when we win people to Christ. The Bible says, "He people to Christ. The Bible says, "He people to Christ. The Bible says, "He that wins souls is wise." that wins souls is wise." that wins souls is wise." >> And so I believe it is, Bob, lifegiving >> And so I believe it is, Bob, lifegiving >> And so I believe it is, Bob, lifegiving not only for the person who's coming to not only for the person who's coming to not only for the person who's coming to Christ, but it's lifegiving for the Christ, but it's lifegiving for the Christ, but it's lifegiving for the person that is sharing Christ. Because person that is sharing Christ. Because person that is sharing Christ. Because the Bible says, "Give and it shall be the Bible says, "Give and it shall be the Bible says, "Give and it shall be given unto you. Pressed down, shaken given unto you. Pressed down, shaken given unto you. Pressed down, shaken together, running over. The same measure together, running over. The same measure together, running over. The same measure you give, it will be measured back to you give, it will be measured back to you give, it will be measured back to you." And Proverbs says, "The generous you." And Proverbs says, "The generous you." And Proverbs says, "The generous soul will be made fat." which is sort of soul will be made fat." which is sort of soul will be made fat." which is sort of a King James version of just saying when a King James version of just saying when a King James version of just saying when you give out it's it's going to you give out it's it's going to you give out it's it's going to replenish you too and and that's the replenish you too and and that's the replenish you too and and that's the important thing. It's a blessing for us important thing. It's a blessing for us important thing. It's a blessing for us to do it. And then the other thing I to do it. And then the other thing I to do it. And then the other thing I would say is celebrate evangelism. So would say is celebrate evangelism. So would say is celebrate evangelism. So like you mentioned that at church our like you mentioned that at church our like you mentioned that at church our youth pastor talked about all the people youth pastor talked about all the people youth pastor talked about all the people that came to Christ. We celebrate that came to Christ. We celebrate that came to Christ. We celebrate conversion. We also showed a video that conversion. We also showed a video that conversion. We also showed a video that day that we played right before uh the day that we played right before uh the day that we played right before uh the offering and we shared with the folks offering and we shared with the folks offering and we shared with the folks that you know when you give at harvest that you know when you give at harvest that you know when you give at harvest this is one of the things we do and so this is one of the things we do and so this is one of the things we do and so we we're always celebrating stories of we we're always celebrating stories of we we're always celebrating stories of people coming to Christ. That's how you people coming to Christ. That's how you people coming to Christ. That's how you create an evangelistic culture.

create an evangelistic culture. create an evangelistic culture. >> I want to shift a little bit and talk >> I want to shift a little bit and talk >> I want to shift a little bit and talk about evangelism as it relates to about evangelism as it relates to about evangelism as it relates to preaching. preaching. preaching. >> Yeah. um you have given >> Yeah. um you have given >> Yeah. um you have given sermons that include evangelism sermons that include evangelism sermons that include evangelism >> and you've given evangelistic sermons. >> and you've given evangelistic sermons. >> and you've given evangelistic sermons. Can you talk about the difference in Can you talk about the difference in Can you talk about the difference in your preparation? your preparation? your preparation? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> To do both. >> To do both. >> To do both. >> Yeah. Actually, there's a very big >> Yeah. Actually, there's a very big >> Yeah. Actually, there's a very big difference between a message on a text difference between a message on a text difference between a message on a text and even the but my evangelistic and even the but my evangelistic and even the but my evangelistic messages are based on the text too. But messages are based on the text too. But messages are based on the text too. But there's a difference. Okay, here's the there's a difference. Okay, here's the there's a difference. Okay, here's the main difference. Simplified. In an main difference. Simplified. In an main difference. Simplified. In an evangelistic message, I'm preaching for evangelistic message, I'm preaching for evangelistic message, I'm preaching for a decision. a decision. a decision. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> From the beginning to the end, I'm going >> From the beginning to the end, I'm going >> From the beginning to the end, I'm going to challenge people to come to Christ. to challenge people to come to Christ. to challenge people to come to Christ. In a message, an exposition, In a message, an exposition, In a message, an exposition, I want to develop what the text is I want to develop what the text is I want to develop what the text is saying. You know, I want to understand saying. You know, I want to understand saying. You know, I want to understand it culturally, original languages, it culturally, original languages, it culturally, original languages, >> in context, of course, and then apply >> in context, of course, and then apply >> in context, of course, and then apply it. I think we're too quick to want to it. I think we're too quick to want to it. I think we're too quick to want to hit the application, make sure you're hit the application, make sure you're hit the application, make sure you're understanding it in context. So, I I do understanding it in context. So, I I do understanding it in context. So, I I do all of that and then I apply it to the all of that and then I apply it to the all of that and then I apply it to the listener. But, you know, I'm wanting to listener. But, you know, I'm wanting to listener. But, you know, I'm wanting to encourage people, regular people, and encourage people, regular people, and encourage people, regular people, and their Christian life, the housewife, the their Christian life, the housewife, the their Christian life, the housewife, the businessman, the young person, the older businessman, the young person, the older businessman, the young person, the older person. How does this apply to you? And person. How does this apply to you? And person. How does this apply to you? And but I'm also going to think about the but I'm also going to think about the but I'm also going to think about the non-believer that's present and have non-believer that's present and have non-believer that's present and have something for them as well. But I can't something for them as well. But I can't something for them as well. But I can't sit around every Sunday and evangelize sit around every Sunday and evangelize sit around every Sunday and evangelize Christians, you know, because my job as Christians, you know, because my job as Christians, you know, because my job as pastor, it's like two hats. My job as pastor, it's like two hats. My job as pastor, it's like two hats. My job as pastor is to feed the flock of God and

pastor is to feed the flock of God and pastor is to feed the flock of God and equip the saints for the work of equip the saints for the work of equip the saints for the work of ministry. That's what I'm Ephesians 4 ministry. That's what I'm Ephesians 4 ministry. That's what I'm Ephesians 4 says. God has raised up uh apostles, says. God has raised up uh apostles, says. God has raised up uh apostles, prophets, pastor, teachers, evangelists prophets, pastor, teachers, evangelists prophets, pastor, teachers, evangelists for the work of the ministry, for the for the work of the ministry, for the for the work of the ministry, for the equipping of the church. So I'm there to equipping of the church. So I'm there to equipping of the church. So I'm there to equip them and to feed the flock of God. equip them and to feed the flock of God. equip them and to feed the flock of God. Now, in evangelism, I'm a herald. I'm Now, in evangelism, I'm a herald. I'm Now, in evangelism, I'm a herald. I'm proclaiming a message. And as I said, proclaiming a message. And as I said, proclaiming a message. And as I said, I'm preaching for a decision. And I'm preaching for a decision. And I'm preaching for a decision. And believe it or not, it's a lot more work believe it or not, it's a lot more work believe it or not, it's a lot more work to write an evangelistic message because to write an evangelistic message because to write an evangelistic message because I write it and I start whittling it down I write it and I start whittling it down I write it and I start whittling it down and simplifying it. And and and then the and simplifying it. And and and then the and simplifying it. And and and then the funny thing is even when I'm preaching, funny thing is even when I'm preaching, funny thing is even when I'm preaching, I'm editing on the fly. I'm editing on the fly. I'm editing on the fly. >> And and and it takes me a lot more time >> And and and it takes me a lot more time >> And and and it takes me a lot more time to write those messages. And I've had to write those messages. And I've had to write those messages. And I've had people comment on how utterly simple people comment on how utterly simple people comment on how utterly simple they are almost I wouldn't say they are almost I wouldn't say they are almost I wouldn't say critically but like why did all those critically but like why did all those critically but like why did all those people come forward because it seems so people come forward because it seems so people come forward because it seems so simple and I think what they may not simple and I think what they may not simple and I think what they may not understand is that's the idea understand is that's the idea understand is that's the idea >> back to Billy's statement I study to be >> back to Billy's statement I study to be >> back to Billy's statement I study to be simple that's that's the key is I have simple that's that's the key is I have simple that's that's the key is I have to make it understandable so I start to make it understandable so I start to make it understandable so I start from a completely different premise in from a completely different premise in from a completely different premise in writing an evangelistic message and writing an evangelistic message and writing an evangelistic message and there more work. But uh and I never know there more work. But uh and I never know there more work. But uh and I never know quite how they'll turn out, but um I quite how they'll turn out, but um I quite how they'll turn out, but um I mean I could just get up and share the mean I could just get up and share the mean I could just get up and share the gospel very simply without any gospel very simply without any gospel very simply without any preparation. But in these messages in preparation. But in these messages in preparation. But in these messages in particular, I I work on them more than I particular, I I work on them more than I particular, I I work on them more than I do a regular teaching, but I spend a lot

do a regular teaching, but I spend a lot do a regular teaching, but I spend a lot of time in that too. But I love it. You of time in that too. But I love it. You of time in that too. But I love it. You know, of all the things that I do, I know, of all the things that I do, I know, of all the things that I do, I love to study, write, and deliver love to study, write, and deliver love to study, write, and deliver sermons. I love it. I I love it more now sermons. I love it. I I love it more now sermons. I love it. I I love it more now than I have ever loved it. You know, than I have ever loved it. You know, than I have ever loved it. You know, other things that come maybe if a church other things that come maybe if a church other things that come maybe if a church grows, administrating, grows, administrating, grows, administrating, you know, taking care of all the other you know, taking care of all the other you know, taking care of all the other elements that you need to take care of. elements that you need to take care of. elements that you need to take care of. Those are not my favorite parts, you Those are not my favorite parts, you Those are not my favorite parts, you know. Uh I I still just love the the know. Uh I I still just love the the know. Uh I I still just love the the challenge of even coming to a text maybe challenge of even coming to a text maybe challenge of even coming to a text maybe I haven't preached on before and seeing I haven't preached on before and seeing I haven't preached on before and seeing it come together. That that's a blessing it come together. That that's a blessing it come together. That that's a blessing to me because I'm fed and I'm blessed as to me because I'm fed and I'm blessed as to me because I'm fed and I'm blessed as I'm preparing it. And I hope that that I'm preparing it. And I hope that that I'm preparing it. And I hope that that passes on and blesses people, too. passes on and blesses people, too. passes on and blesses people, too. >> Yeah, I totally agree with that. I It >> Yeah, I totally agree with that. I It >> Yeah, I totally agree with that. I It seems to me, and once again, I've been a seems to me, and once again, I've been a seems to me, and once again, I've been a student of your sermons forever. I mean, student of your sermons forever. I mean, student of your sermons forever. I mean, I've been pastoring for 25 years, and I I've been pastoring for 25 years, and I I've been pastoring for 25 years, and I don't think that there's any text that I don't think that there's any text that I don't think that there's any text that I teach that I don't check to see if teach that I don't check to see if teach that I don't check to see if you've taught it. Oh, wow. you've taught it. Oh, wow. you've taught it. Oh, wow. >> And I I want to hear how you've done it. >> And I I want to hear how you've done it. >> And I I want to hear how you've done it. And but there seems to be a moment And but there seems to be a moment And but there seems to be a moment there's two things that I've noticed in there's two things that I've noticed in there's two things that I've noticed in in your messages and I this is where I in your messages and I this is where I in your messages and I this is where I want to know if it's uh you know want to know if it's uh you know want to know if it's uh you know strategic or intuitive but there's a strategic or intuitive but there's a strategic or intuitive but there's a moment where you're teaching as just a a moment where you're teaching as just a a moment where you're teaching as just a a normal senior pastor would teach through normal senior pastor would teach through normal senior pastor would teach through a text but there's a moment that you a text but there's a moment that you a text but there's a moment that you stop teaching and you start preaching.

stop teaching and you start preaching. stop teaching and you start preaching. >> Yeah. And then there's the other thing >> Yeah. And then there's the other thing >> Yeah. And then there's the other thing I've noticed is is that and even on I've noticed is is that and even on I've noticed is is that and even on Sunday you were talking about being salt Sunday you were talking about being salt Sunday you were talking about being salt and light about and you spoke as this is and light about and you spoke as this is and light about and you spoke as this is what we need to do as believers. Yeah. what we need to do as believers. Yeah. what we need to do as believers. Yeah. This is as Christians. This is what our This is as Christians. This is what our This is as Christians. This is what our call is. But then when you start you call is. But then when you start you call is. But then when you start you kind of made a move kind of made a move kind of made a move >> um you transition to the invitation and >> um you transition to the invitation and >> um you transition to the invitation and that is kind of the the okay the that is kind of the the okay the that is kind of the the okay the teaching portion is done now I'm teaching portion is done now I'm teaching portion is done now I'm preaching where it got very personal. preaching where it got very personal. preaching where it got very personal. You were not speaking in generalities You were not speaking in generalities You were not speaking in generalities you were speaking to the individual. you were speaking to the individual. you were speaking to the individual. Yeah. And so can you talk about that a Yeah. And so can you talk about that a Yeah. And so can you talk about that a little bit? Is that like a strategic little bit? Is that like a strategic little bit? Is that like a strategic thing or is that just intuitive or is thing or is that just intuitive or is thing or is that just intuitive or is something else? something else? something else? >> A little of both, but it is very >> A little of both, but it is very >> A little of both, but it is very intentional. And so when I'm writing a intentional. And so when I'm writing a intentional. And so when I'm writing a message, message, message, I always think when I get to the end, I I always think when I get to the end, I I always think when I get to the end, I want to have something a non-believer want to have something a non-believer want to have something a non-believer can understand. So I write something can understand. So I write something can understand. So I write something just for them. And and I do make it just for them. And and I do make it just for them. And and I do make it personal because I it's interesting when personal because I it's interesting when personal because I it's interesting when you ask people who come to Christ in you ask people who come to Christ in you ask people who come to Christ in your services what got your attention. your services what got your attention. your services what got your attention. Well, it's when you told this one story, Well, it's when you told this one story, Well, it's when you told this one story, you said this one thing. You know, you you said this one thing. You know, you you said this one thing. You know, you have to not assume coming back to have to not assume coming back to have to not assume coming back to something I said earlier, not assume something I said earlier, not assume something I said earlier, not assume they understand what you've been saying.

they understand what you've been saying. they understand what you've been saying. So, I think that even as a non-believer, So, I think that even as a non-believer, So, I think that even as a non-believer, you come to church and you're listening you come to church and you're listening you come to church and you're listening and whatever the topic is, it's and whatever the topic is, it's and whatever the topic is, it's interesting because you're hearing a interesting because you're hearing a interesting because you're hearing a Christian worldview. Christian worldview. Christian worldview. >> You're hearing someone that believes in >> You're hearing someone that believes in >> You're hearing someone that believes in the book. You're hearing someone that the book. You're hearing someone that the book. You're hearing someone that puts the authority of scripture above puts the authority of scripture above puts the authority of scripture above their own. You're hearing how it works their own. You're hearing how it works their own. You're hearing how it works in real life, but you don't really know in real life, but you don't really know in real life, but you don't really know how that applies to you necessarily, but how that applies to you necessarily, but how that applies to you necessarily, but you're interested. Maybe you're drawn to you're interested. Maybe you're drawn to you're interested. Maybe you're drawn to it. Maybe you like what you're seeing. it. Maybe you like what you're seeing. it. Maybe you like what you're seeing. But I now I have to make it real to that But I now I have to make it real to that But I now I have to make it real to that person. And and I think our people know person. And and I think our people know person. And and I think our people know that I'm going to do that and they want that I'm going to do that and they want that I'm going to do that and they want me to do that. Now I'm going to change me to do that. Now I'm going to change me to do that. Now I'm going to change it and I'm going to make it personal and it and I'm going to make it personal and it and I'm going to make it personal and I'm going to apply it to a person who's I'm going to apply it to a person who's I'm going to apply it to a person who's never heard it before. I'm not going to never heard it before. I'm not going to never heard it before. I'm not going to assume they understand anything that assume they understand anything that assume they understand anything that I've said prior to that and and it's I've said prior to that and and it's I've said prior to that and and it's going to be personal. So that is very going to be personal. So that is very going to be personal. So that is very intentional. But then I do believe the intentional. But then I do believe the intentional. But then I do believe the Holy Spirit will lead you. And I found Holy Spirit will lead you. And I found Holy Spirit will lead you. And I found myself saying things like there might be myself saying things like there might be myself saying things like there might be a person here today that recently a person here today that recently a person here today that recently was so despondent they thought of taking was so despondent they thought of taking was so despondent they thought of taking their own life. I'm not basing that on their own life. I'm not basing that on their own life. I'm not basing that on anything. In fact, if people do tell me anything. In fact, if people do tell me anything. In fact, if people do tell me stories about people they brought to stories about people they brought to stories about people they brought to church, I would never use what they told church, I would never use what they told church, I would never use what they told me in a sermon because I never make it me in a sermon because I never make it me in a sermon because I never make it personal. I've had people say, "You were personal. I've had people say, "You were personal. I've had people say, "You were staring at me the whole time." I don't staring at me the whole time." I don't staring at me the whole time." I don't stare at anybody. [laughter] I I'm I'm stare at anybody. [laughter] I I'm I'm stare at anybody. [laughter] I I'm I'm kind of looking at them, but in a way kind of looking at them, but in a way kind of looking at them, but in a way I'm looking past them a little because I'm looking past them a little because I'm looking past them a little because I'm thinking, you know, but I do believe I'm thinking, you know, but I do believe I'm thinking, you know, but I do believe the Lord will will give me little

the Lord will will give me little the Lord will will give me little illustrations that sometime are l illustrations that sometime are l illustrations that sometime are l sometimes are literally describing a sometimes are literally describing a sometimes are literally describing a person's situation and I've had people person's situation and I've had people person's situation and I've had people say that to me and I think of sermons say that to me and I think of sermons say that to me and I think of sermons I've heard where I'm listening to a I've heard where I'm listening to a I've heard where I'm listening to a podcast that was recorded when 10 years podcast that was recorded when 10 years podcast that was recorded when 10 years ago and yet it speaks personally to me ago and yet it speaks personally to me ago and yet it speaks personally to me as though it was written for me. I as though it was written for me. I as though it was written for me. I believe the Holy Spirit directed that believe the Holy Spirit directed that believe the Holy Spirit directed that preacher when he gave that many years preacher when he gave that many years preacher when he gave that many years ago to yes be relevant to the people he ago to yes be relevant to the people he ago to yes be relevant to the people he was speaking to, but knowing it would was speaking to, but knowing it would was speaking to, but knowing it would eventually reach me down the road and eventually reach me down the road and eventually reach me down the road and others. That's what the Lord can do. So others. That's what the Lord can do. So others. That's what the Lord can do. So I try to stay really open. That's where I try to stay really open. That's where I try to stay really open. That's where the spontaneity comes in and but the the spontaneity comes in and but the the spontaneity comes in and but the other part I will structure it where other part I will structure it where other part I will structure it where yes, I'm shifting gears and I'm aiming yes, I'm shifting gears and I'm aiming yes, I'm shifting gears and I'm aiming it toward the non-believer. it toward the non-believer. it toward the non-believer. So, one of the things that I think we do So, one of the things that I think we do So, one of the things that I think we do as preachers, I know I do this, not as preachers, I know I do this, not as preachers, I know I do this, not because I want to, but because it's just because I want to, but because it's just because I want to, but because it's just what I do. We don't just listen to what I do. We don't just listen to what I do. We don't just listen to preachers, we listen at preachers. So, preachers, we listen at preachers. So, preachers, we listen at preachers. So, we're we're listening and we're like, we're we're listening and we're like, we're we're listening and we're like, "Oo, that was good. Oh, maybe I'd do "Oo, that was good. Oh, maybe I'd do "Oo, that was good. Oh, maybe I'd do that differently. Oh, that's way better that differently. Oh, that's way better that differently. Oh, that's way better than I would do it." And um and so I was than I would do it." And um and so I was than I would do it." And um and so I was sitting I was listening to your message sitting I was listening to your message sitting I was listening to your message on Sunday on Sunday on Sunday >> and I was thinking to myself, I want to >> and I was thinking to myself, I want to >> and I was thinking to myself, I want to see how he makes the transition to the see how he makes the transition to the see how he makes the transition to the evangelistic component of the message.

evangelistic component of the message. evangelistic component of the message. And I just got so into the message, I And I just got so into the message, I And I just got so into the message, I totally forgot totally forgot totally forgot >> uh that I was waiting for that. And then >> uh that I was waiting for that. And then >> uh that I was waiting for that. And then we got to the invitation. I'm like, "Oh, we got to the invitation. I'm like, "Oh, we got to the invitation. I'm like, "Oh, I missed it." And uh so I relistened to I missed it." And uh so I relistened to I missed it." And uh so I relistened to the message last night the message last night the message last night >> and I'm like because I have to ask this >> and I'm like because I have to ask this >> and I'm like because I have to ask this question and so I had to I was listening question and so I had to I was listening question and so I had to I was listening to the message before I went to bed last to the message before I went to bed last to the message before I went to bed last night night night >> and the when the teaching component was >> and the when the teaching component was >> and the when the teaching component was coming to an end you kind of you bridged coming to an end you kind of you bridged coming to an end you kind of you bridged it with that Titanic story at the end it with that Titanic story at the end it with that Titanic story at the end that part where um I don't know if it that part where um I don't know if it that part where um I don't know if it was the helmsman or someone you know was the helmsman or someone you know was the helmsman or someone you know shut up shut up I'm busy shut up shut up I'm busy shut up shut up I'm busy >> and um >> and um >> and um >> and that's where you made the turn and >> and that's where you made the turn and >> and that's where you made the turn and you said maybe you think that you're too you said maybe you think that you're too you said maybe you think that you're too busy for God. you just started listing busy for God. you just started listing busy for God. you just started listing off things that people do off things that people do off things that people do >> when you and I remember when we talked >> when you and I remember when we talked >> when you and I remember when we talked um before the service, you said, "Oh, um before the service, you said, "Oh, um before the service, you said, "Oh, I'd watch this documentary. I'm really I'd watch this documentary. I'm really I'd watch this documentary. I'm really excited about this this uh this Titanic excited about this this uh this Titanic excited about this this uh this Titanic piece." And you think, "I know I could piece." And you think, "I know I could piece." And you think, "I know I could use it at the end." So, can you talk use it at the end." So, can you talk use it at the end." So, can you talk about some of the intentionality of about some of the intentionality of about some of the intentionality of making the switch to say, "Hey, I need making the switch to say, "Hey, I need making the switch to say, "Hey, I need to I want this to be a smooth landing to I want this to be a smooth landing to I want this to be a smooth landing and not a crash landing uh as we go into and not a crash landing uh as we go into and not a crash landing uh as we go into an evangelistic portion."

an evangelistic portion." an evangelistic portion." Well, the two most important the two Well, the two most important the two Well, the two most important the two most important moments of flying when most important moments of flying when most important moments of flying when the danger is the highest is takeoff and the danger is the highest is takeoff and the danger is the highest is takeoff and landing. landing. landing. >> The same is true of a sermon. >> The same is true of a sermon. >> The same is true of a sermon. We should never be boring. And when a We should never be boring. And when a We should never be boring. And when a preacher is boring, that to me is the preacher is boring, that to me is the preacher is boring, that to me is the worst thing you can do. Maybe you should worst thing you can do. Maybe you should worst thing you can do. Maybe you should do something else because there's do something else because there's do something else because there's nothing boring about the word of God. nothing boring about the word of God. nothing boring about the word of God. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah, that's right. >> There's nothing boring about the message >> There's nothing boring about the message >> There's nothing boring about the message we're bringing. And I have seen people we're bringing. And I have seen people we're bringing. And I have seen people take the action-packed take the action-packed take the action-packed word of God and make it so dull. word of God and make it so dull. word of God and make it so dull. Listening to them is like watching paint Listening to them is like watching paint Listening to them is like watching paint dry. It's like unbelievable. dry. It's like unbelievable. dry. It's like unbelievable. So you I think when you begin a message, So you I think when you begin a message, So you I think when you begin a message, you want to capture the attention of the you want to capture the attention of the you want to capture the attention of the audience. I often start with an audience. I often start with an audience. I often start with an illustration or a joke sometimes or illustration or a joke sometimes or illustration or a joke sometimes or something that will get them to oh, I something that will get them to oh, I something that will get them to oh, I want to hear this. Right? That's takeoff want to hear this. Right? That's takeoff want to hear this. Right? That's takeoff landing. That's very important. And I've landing. That's very important. And I've landing. That's very important. And I've seen messages fall apart at landing, seen messages fall apart at landing, seen messages fall apart at landing, especially when it comes to an especially when it comes to an especially when it comes to an invitation. I think the biggest problem invitation. I think the biggest problem invitation. I think the biggest problem that pastors have in evangelistic closes that pastors have in evangelistic closes that pastors have in evangelistic closes is not necessarily in content, but it's is not necessarily in content, but it's is not necessarily in content, but it's actually in the clarity of what they're actually in the clarity of what they're actually in the clarity of what they're asking people to do. So, I find myself asking people to do. So, I find myself asking people to do. So, I find myself going over it a few times. So, I'll do going over it a few times. So, I'll do going over it a few times. So, I'll do something like this. Maybe you've joined something like this. Maybe you've joined something like this. Maybe you've joined us today and you've never given your us today and you've never given your us today and you've never given your life to Jesus Christ. In a moment, I'm life to Jesus Christ. In a moment, I'm life to Jesus Christ. In a moment, I'm going to give you an opportunity to do going to give you an opportunity to do going to give you an opportunity to do that. So, if you need to ask Christ to

that. So, if you need to ask Christ to that. So, if you need to ask Christ to come into your life, if you want to have come into your life, if you want to have come into your life, if you want to have your sin forgiven, if you want to know your sin forgiven, if you want to know your sin forgiven, if you want to know that when you die, you will go to that when you die, you will go to that when you die, you will go to heaven, if you want to fill that hole in heaven, if you want to fill that hole in heaven, if you want to fill that hole in your life, respond to this invitation. I your life, respond to this invitation. I your life, respond to this invitation. I might even repeat that another time in a might even repeat that another time in a might even repeat that another time in a slightly different way. Then we pray. slightly different way. Then we pray. slightly different way. Then we pray. Then I say, you know, if you want to ask Then I say, you know, if you want to ask Then I say, you know, if you want to ask Christ into your life, pray this prayer Christ into your life, pray this prayer Christ into your life, pray this prayer or whatever it is I do. Now, if I'm or whatever it is I do. Now, if I'm or whatever it is I do. Now, if I'm going to give an invitation, this is going to give an invitation, this is going to give an invitation, this is where I have to really be clear. And by where I have to really be clear. And by where I have to really be clear. And by invitation, I mean ask them to come invitation, I mean ask them to come invitation, I mean ask them to come forward. I'll say it like this. In a forward. I'll say it like this. In a forward. I'll say it like this. In a moment, I'm going to ask you to get up moment, I'm going to ask you to get up moment, I'm going to ask you to get up out of your seat, come out into the out of your seat, come out into the out of your seat, come out into the aisle, and walk to the front and stand aisle, and walk to the front and stand aisle, and walk to the front and stand here making your public profession of here making your public profession of here making your public profession of faith. Why am I asking you to do this? faith. Why am I asking you to do this? faith. Why am I asking you to do this? Because Jesus said, "If you will confess Because Jesus said, "If you will confess Because Jesus said, "If you will confess me before people, I will confess you me before people, I will confess you me before people, I will confess you before the Father and the angels in before the Father and the angels in before the Father and the angels in heaven. And if you deny me before heaven. And if you deny me before heaven. And if you deny me before people, I'll deny you before the father people, I'll deny you before the father people, I'll deny you before the father and the angels. So I'm going to ask you and the angels. So I'm going to ask you and the angels. So I'm going to ask you to get up and come forward in just a to get up and come forward in just a to get up and come forward in just a moment. And so I might say something moment. And so I might say something moment. And so I might say something else and then I'll come back and say, else and then I'll come back and say, else and then I'll come back and say, "So right now, if you raise your hand, "So right now, if you raise your hand, "So right now, if you raise your hand, even if you did not during that last even if you did not during that last even if you did not during that last moment of prayer, get up out of your moment of prayer, get up out of your moment of prayer, get up out of your seat, step into the aisle, walk down to seat, step into the aisle, walk down to seat, step into the aisle, walk down to the front, and make your public stand the front, and make your public stand the front, and make your public stand for Christ." So I'm telling them, I'm for Christ." So I'm telling them, I'm for Christ." So I'm telling them, I'm telling them again, and I'm telling them telling them again, and I'm telling them telling them again, and I'm telling them again. Here's what happens with some again. Here's what happens with some again. Here's what happens with some preachers. I'll say, "I'm going to ask preachers. I'll say, "I'm going to ask preachers. I'll say, "I'm going to ask you to get up and come forward." So, you to get up and come forward." So, you to get up and come forward." So, come forward now. The band comes out, come forward now. The band comes out, come forward now. The band comes out, starts singing. They don't know what starts singing. They don't know what starts singing. They don't know what you're telling them. And they're you're telling them. And they're you're telling them. And they're thinking, "Wait, did I hear it right?

thinking, "Wait, did I hear it right? thinking, "Wait, did I hear it right? Does he want me to walk up there?" Well, Does he want me to walk up there?" Well, Does he want me to walk up there?" Well, maybe that's not what he meant. So, maybe that's not what he meant. So, maybe that's not what he meant. So, everyone freezes. So, sometimes it takes everyone freezes. So, sometimes it takes everyone freezes. So, sometimes it takes one person who got it to walk forward. one person who got it to walk forward. one person who got it to walk forward. That's fine. And uh and then it will That's fine. And uh and then it will That's fine. And uh and then it will kind of I've had it where no one will kind of I've had it where no one will kind of I've had it where no one will come forward, then one person will come, come forward, then one person will come, come forward, then one person will come, then two more will come, and then then two more will come, and then then two more will come, and then they'll start flooding forward, and then they'll start flooding forward, and then they'll start flooding forward, and then maybe sometimes in the middle of an maybe sometimes in the middle of an maybe sometimes in the middle of an invitation, I'll have the band play a invitation, I'll have the band play a invitation, I'll have the band play a song, they break, maybe they're just, song, they break, maybe they're just, song, they break, maybe they're just, you know, strumming through it, and I'll you know, strumming through it, and I'll you know, strumming through it, and I'll say in a moment, the band's going to do say in a moment, the band's going to do say in a moment, the band's going to do this chorus one last time again. Maybe this chorus one last time again. Maybe this chorus one last time again. Maybe you want Christ to come into your life. you want Christ to come into your life. you want Christ to come into your life. And I'll reiterate it and invite them And I'll reiterate it and invite them And I'll reiterate it and invite them again. I certainly do this at the again. I certainly do this at the again. I certainly do this at the crusade. I might even do it four times crusade. I might even do it four times crusade. I might even do it four times in a crusade invitation because it does in a crusade invitation because it does in a crusade invitation because it does take longer for people to come down on take longer for people to come down on take longer for people to come down on the field and make that profession of the field and make that profession of the field and make that profession of faith depending what on what venue we're faith depending what on what venue we're faith depending what on what venue we're in. But in Angel Stadium, it takes quite in. But in Angel Stadium, it takes quite in. But in Angel Stadium, it takes quite a while a while a while >> and I want to give them the time to do >> and I want to give them the time to do >> and I want to give them the time to do that. So it's something that it's the that. So it's something that it's the that. So it's something that it's the mechanics sometimes of people don't mechanics sometimes of people don't mechanics sometimes of people don't understand what it is you want them to understand what it is you want them to understand what it is you want them to do. Again, it's not about walking do. Again, it's not about walking do. Again, it's not about walking forward. It's about making a profession forward. It's about making a profession forward. It's about making a profession of faith because we don't know how they of faith because we don't know how they of faith because we don't know how they did it in the book of Acts. We just read did it in the book of Acts. We just read did it in the book of Acts. We just read 3,000 believed. Wait, how was Peter 3,000 believed. Wait, how was Peter 3,000 believed. Wait, how was Peter strumming a guitar in the background or strumming a guitar in the background or strumming a guitar in the background or what would you know? Probably not.

what would you know? Probably not. what would you know? Probably not. Obviously, we don't know the mechanism Obviously, we don't know the mechanism Obviously, we don't know the mechanism of it, but we know it happened and we of it, but we know it happened and we of it, but we know it happened and we know they counted them because sometimes know they counted them because sometimes know they counted them because sometimes people say, "Well, I'm not into people say, "Well, I'm not into people say, "Well, I'm not into numbers." People that say they're not in numbers." People that say they're not in numbers." People that say they're not in the numbers are people that often have the numbers are people that often have the numbers are people that often have very low numbers. very low numbers. very low numbers. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So they have to develop a a theology >> So they have to develop a a theology >> So they have to develop a a theology that justifies that. that justifies that. that justifies that. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And I'm not saying it's all about >> And I'm not saying it's all about >> And I'm not saying it's all about numbers because whatever size of your numbers because whatever size of your numbers because whatever size of your flock, you want to be a faithful flock, you want to be a faithful flock, you want to be a faithful shepherd of that flock. Someone once shepherd of that flock. Someone once shepherd of that flock. Someone once asked the Spurgeon, "Uh, wow, you asked the Spurgeon, "Uh, wow, you asked the Spurgeon, "Uh, wow, you preached to a lot of people. I wish I preached to a lot of people. I wish I preached to a lot of people. I wish I preached to as many people as you did." preached to as many people as you did." preached to as many people as you did." Spurgeon said, 'How many people are in Spurgeon said, 'How many people are in Spurgeon said, 'How many people are in your congregation? The pastor said your congregation? The pastor said your congregation? The pastor said around a hundred. Spurgeon said, 'I around a hundred. Spurgeon said, 'I around a hundred. Spurgeon said, 'I think that's enough people to give an think that's enough people to give an think that's enough people to give an account of on the day of judgment. So, account of on the day of judgment. So, account of on the day of judgment. So, but now coming back to what I was but now coming back to what I was but now coming back to what I was saying, you say you're not in the saying, you say you're not in the saying, you say you're not in the numbers. Actually, God is numbers. Actually, God is numbers. Actually, God is >> because we do read 3,000 believed, 5,000 >> because we do read 3,000 believed, 5,000 >> because we do read 3,000 believed, 5,000 believe. Coming back to Paul and Marcel, believe. Coming back to Paul and Marcel, believe. Coming back to Paul and Marcel, a handful believed. That's important too a handful believed. That's important too a handful believed. That's important too because oh here's the great apostle Paul because oh here's the great apostle Paul because oh here's the great apostle Paul one of the greatest orators of his time one of the greatest orators of his time one of the greatest orators of his time a handful believe and they named them.

a handful believe and they named them. a handful believe and they named them. It was such a small group they gave the It was such a small group they gave the It was such a small group they gave the names of the people that believed and so names of the people that believed and so names of the people that believed and so so that means Paul failed right? No so that means Paul failed right? No so that means Paul failed right? No because God will not judge us for because God will not judge us for because God will not judge us for success in quotes but for faithfulness. success in quotes but for faithfulness. success in quotes but for faithfulness. My job, your job, our job as preachers My job, your job, our job as preachers My job, your job, our job as preachers is to proclaim the gospel and leave the is to proclaim the gospel and leave the is to proclaim the gospel and leave the results in the hands of God. results in the hands of God. results in the hands of God. >> You know, it's his harvest. It's his >> You know, it's his harvest. It's his >> You know, it's his harvest. It's his work. Jesus said those that will come work. Jesus said those that will come work. Jesus said those that will come will come who are called by the father. will come who are called by the father. will come who are called by the father. You know that I like that verse in the You know that I like that verse in the You know that I like that verse in the book of Acts that says as many as were book of Acts that says as many as were book of Acts that says as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed. ordained unto eternal life believed. ordained unto eternal life believed. >> And so it's in the hands of God >> And so it's in the hands of God >> And so it's in the hands of God ultimately, but I want to make sure I do ultimately, but I want to make sure I do ultimately, but I want to make sure I do my job. Make it clear, make it my job. Make it clear, make it my job. Make it clear, make it understandable, understandable, understandable, a give them the opportunity to respond a give them the opportunity to respond a give them the opportunity to respond in some way, shape or form. in some way, shape or form. in some way, shape or form. >> Yeah. You mentioned Spurgeon a moment >> Yeah. You mentioned Spurgeon a moment >> Yeah. You mentioned Spurgeon a moment ago. One of the things that he says in ago. One of the things that he says in ago. One of the things that he says in his book, The Soul Winner, Yeah. is that his book, The Soul Winner, Yeah. is that his book, The Soul Winner, Yeah. is that it is the business of every Christian it is the business of every Christian it is the business of every Christian minister to win souls for Christ, minister to win souls for Christ, minister to win souls for Christ, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> So why do you think we see so little >> So why do you think we see so little >> So why do you think we see so little >> pulpit evangelism in particular in in >> pulpit evangelism in particular in in >> pulpit evangelism in particular in in churches today? churches today? churches today? >> Why do you think? I think some of it >> Why do you think? I think some of it >> Why do you think? I think some of it might be uh pastors feel a lack of might be uh pastors feel a lack of might be uh pastors feel a lack of gifting. gifting. gifting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It could be uh I think some of it is a >> It could be uh I think some of it is a >> It could be uh I think some of it is a lack of training. lack of training. lack of training. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think sometimes there is a theology >> I think sometimes there is a theology >> I think sometimes there is a theology that it's like, hey, if God wants to that it's like, hey, if God wants to that it's like, hey, if God wants to reach them, he's going to reach them. reach them, he's going to reach them. reach them, he's going to reach them. >> Yes. Well, those those are all true. You >> Yes. Well, those those are all true. You >> Yes. Well, those those are all true. You know, coming back to that statement in know, coming back to that statement in know, coming back to that statement in Acts, as many as were ordained unto Acts, as many as were ordained unto Acts, as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed. I believe in eternal life believed. I believe in eternal life believed. I believe in predestination. The Bible teaches predestination. The Bible teaches predestination. The Bible teaches predestination. predestination. predestination. But the Bible also teaches free will and But the Bible also teaches free will and But the Bible also teaches free will and the need to appeal to people. For God so the need to appeal to people. For God so the need to appeal to people. For God so loved the world, he gave his only loved the world, he gave his only loved the world, he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in begotten son that whosoever believes in begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have him should not perish but have him should not perish but have everlasting life. God is not willing everlasting life. God is not willing everlasting life. God is not willing that any should perish but that all that any should perish but that all that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Now I don't should come to repentance. Now I don't should come to repentance. Now I don't believe in what some call double believe in what some call double believe in what some call double predestination. Meaning God chose some predestination. Meaning God chose some predestination. Meaning God chose some people to go to heaven and God chose people to go to heaven and God chose people to go to heaven and God chose other people to go to hell. I don't other people to go to hell. I don't other people to go to hell. I don't believe that. So I do believe that God believe that. So I do believe that God believe that. So I do believe that God shows us how he does that, what that's shows us how he does that, what that's shows us how he does that, what that's based on. I don't have the answer to it, based on. I don't have the answer to it, based on. I don't have the answer to it, nor does anyone else. So my job is to nor does anyone else. So my job is to nor does anyone else. So my job is to appeal to the person and leave the appeal to the person and leave the appeal to the person and leave the results in the hands of God. So if you results in the hands of God. So if you results in the hands of God. So if you have a theology that says, well, if have a theology that says, well, if have a theology that says, well, if they're predestined, they'll believe they're predestined, they'll believe they're predestined, they'll believe you're missing that part that appeals to you're missing that part that appeals to you're missing that part that appeals to the free will of man. I think it was the free will of man. I think it was the free will of man. I think it was said, who was it? Was it Spurgeon?

said, who was it? Was it Spurgeon? said, who was it? Was it Spurgeon? someone you know where they said how do someone you know where they said how do someone you know where they said how do you reconcile predestination and free you reconcile predestination and free you reconcile predestination and free will he says I don't have to reconcile will he says I don't have to reconcile will he says I don't have to reconcile friends right so we don't have to worry friends right so we don't have to worry friends right so we don't have to worry about that that's in the hands of God about that that's in the hands of God about that that's in the hands of God like DL Moody the great evangelist once like DL Moody the great evangelist once like DL Moody the great evangelist once said Lord save the elect and elect some said Lord save the elect and elect some said Lord save the elect and elect some more so [laughter] more so [laughter] more so [laughter] you know I think if you have a theology you know I think if you have a theology you know I think if you have a theology that that says it's all in the hands of that that says it's all in the hands of that that says it's all in the hands of God you're missing the part where you're God you're missing the part where you're God you're missing the part where you're called to appeal to people uh but I I called to appeal to people uh but I I called to appeal to people uh but I I would add one other thing to your list would add one other thing to your list would add one other thing to your list which I thought was very good. I think which I thought was very good. I think which I thought was very good. I think it's a fear of failure. it's a fear of failure. it's a fear of failure. >> It's a fear that you will say come to >> It's a fear that you will say come to >> It's a fear that you will say come to Jesus and they won't come. And I have to Jesus and they won't come. And I have to Jesus and they won't come. And I have to be honest, you may fail. But is it a be honest, you may fail. But is it a be honest, you may fail. But is it a failure? Because I've heard stories of failure? Because I've heard stories of failure? Because I've heard stories of people like in our crusades as an people like in our crusades as an people like in our crusades as an example who did not come forward in the example who did not come forward in the example who did not come forward in the invitation but then prayed to accept invitation but then prayed to accept invitation but then prayed to accept Christ in the parking lot or a day later Christ in the parking lot or a day later Christ in the parking lot or a day later or a week later. My job is to sew the or a week later. My job is to sew the or a week later. My job is to sew the seed. Like Paul says, uh, one sews a seed. Like Paul says, uh, one sews a seed. Like Paul says, uh, one sews a seed, another waters it, God gives the seed, another waters it, God gives the seed, another waters it, God gives the increase. So, I have to do my job. So, increase. So, I have to do my job. So, increase. So, I have to do my job. So, but the fear is I'm going to say come but the fear is I'm going to say come but the fear is I'm going to say come forward and no one will come forward.

forward and no one will come forward. forward and no one will come forward. Again, that could happen. Frankly, it's Again, that could happen. Frankly, it's Again, that could happen. Frankly, it's not the end of the world. Okay, you'll not the end of the world. Okay, you'll not the end of the world. Okay, you'll get over it. But what if people do come get over it. But what if people do come get over it. But what if people do come forward? So, if you want to have forward? So, if you want to have forward? So, if you want to have success, you have to take risks and you success, you have to take risks and you success, you have to take risks and you have to put yourself out there. And uh have to put yourself out there. And uh have to put yourself out there. And uh it is a risky thing but but I would say it is a risky thing but but I would say it is a risky thing but but I would say you know you know you need to understand you know you know you need to understand you know you know you need to understand the proper theology on the topic like the proper theology on the topic like the proper theology on the topic like you were saying a wrong theology can you were saying a wrong theology can you were saying a wrong theology can affect you but just be willing to take affect you but just be willing to take affect you but just be willing to take the risk for the kingdom of God. Jesus the risk for the kingdom of God. Jesus the risk for the kingdom of God. Jesus said to Peter throw your net in the said to Peter throw your net in the said to Peter throw your net in the other side of the boat. Well what would other side of the boat. Well what would other side of the boat. Well what would have happened if he didn't throw his net have happened if he didn't throw his net have happened if he didn't throw his net in the other side of the boat? I don't in the other side of the boat? I don't in the other side of the boat? I don't think he would have had a catch of great think he would have had a catch of great think he would have had a catch of great fish. He had to do what Jesus told him fish. He had to do what Jesus told him fish. He had to do what Jesus told him to do. We've got to throw our net and to do. We've got to throw our net and to do. We've got to throw our net and pull it in and see what we pull in. You pull it in and see what we pull in. You pull it in and see what we pull in. You know, and it may be a lot. It may be a know, and it may be a lot. It may be a know, and it may be a lot. It may be a little, it may be somewhere in the little, it may be somewhere in the little, it may be somewhere in the middle. The results are in the hands of middle. The results are in the hands of middle. The results are in the hands of God. Success in evangelism is God. Success in evangelism is God. Success in evangelism is faithfulness in giving the message. faithfulness in giving the message. faithfulness in giving the message. Though numbers do matter, it's not all Though numbers do matter, it's not all Though numbers do matter, it's not all about numbers.

about numbers. about numbers. >> Sure. One of the things that I've seen >> Sure. One of the things that I've seen >> Sure. One of the things that I've seen certainly experienced it here, we see it certainly experienced it here, we see it certainly experienced it here, we see it at Harvest Crusades. And I think I mean at Harvest Crusades. And I think I mean at Harvest Crusades. And I think I mean going back to Billy Graham and you know going back to Billy Graham and you know going back to Billy Graham and you know just as I am you know just and in the just as I am you know just and in the just as I am you know just and in the early days of the harvest crusades it early days of the harvest crusades it early days of the harvest crusades it was come just as you are. was come just as you are. was come just as you are. >> Can you talk about the importance of >> Can you talk about the importance of >> Can you talk about the importance of music? music? music? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In evangelistic invitations. >> In evangelistic invitations. >> In evangelistic invitations. >> Very good question. I think music is >> Very good question. I think music is >> Very good question. I think music is very important. Of course, uh, DL Moody very important. Of course, uh, DL Moody very important. Of course, uh, DL Moody had his song leader, Ira Seni, and, uh, had his song leader, Ira Seni, and, uh, had his song leader, Ira Seni, and, uh, he had a song that I've never heard he had a song that I've never heard he had a song that I've never heard before called the 90 and9. Apparently, before called the 90 and9. Apparently, before called the 90 and9. Apparently, when Sanki would sing this song, when Sanki would sing this song, when Sanki would sing this song, something supernatural happened and and something supernatural happened and and something supernatural happened and and it really moved people. Uh, Billy Graham it really moved people. Uh, Billy Graham it really moved people. Uh, Billy Graham had just as I am, his worship leader was had just as I am, his worship leader was had just as I am, his worship leader was with was Cliff Barrows. I've worked with with was Cliff Barrows. I've worked with with was Cliff Barrows. I've worked with a lot of people over the years that have a lot of people over the years that have a lot of people over the years that have sung while people are coming forward. I sung while people are coming forward. I sung while people are coming forward. I believe there can be power in music when believe there can be power in music when believe there can be power in music when it's harnessed in the right way.

it's harnessed in the right way. it's harnessed in the right way. Remember when King Saul was tormented by Remember when King Saul was tormented by Remember when King Saul was tormented by a demon, David uh would come and play a a demon, David uh would come and play a a demon, David uh would come and play a stringed instrument and sing songs of stringed instrument and sing songs of stringed instrument and sing songs of worship and Saul would find temporary worship and Saul would find temporary worship and Saul would find temporary relief. relief. relief. >> God created music. Now it's been >> God created music. Now it's been >> God created music. Now it's been hijacked by our culture, our world, used hijacked by our culture, our world, used hijacked by our culture, our world, used for evil purposes, but used properly. It for evil purposes, but used properly. It for evil purposes, but used properly. It can be really used by God. I think it can be really used by God. I think it can be really used by God. I think it was uh Martin Luther who said, and he was uh Martin Luther who said, and he was uh Martin Luther who said, and he said this to me personally because I'm said this to me personally because I'm said this to me personally because I'm old, no. He said he said that worship is old, no. He said he said that worship is old, no. He said he said that worship is the handmaiden of theology. the handmaiden of theology. the handmaiden of theology. >> So I think that that would apply to art >> So I think that that would apply to art >> So I think that that would apply to art in general. That would apply it to in general. That would apply it to in general. That would apply it to music, apply it to movies, visual art, music, apply it to movies, visual art, music, apply it to movies, visual art, paintings, etc. If it's subservient to paintings, etc. If it's subservient to paintings, etc. If it's subservient to the truth of scripture, it can be the truth of scripture, it can be the truth of scripture, it can be powerful. I when you go and visit a lot powerful. I when you go and visit a lot powerful. I when you go and visit a lot of the churches in Europe and you see of the churches in Europe and you see of the churches in Europe and you see those amazing paintings, that is how a those amazing paintings, that is how a those amazing paintings, that is how a lot of people were exposed to the gospel lot of people were exposed to the gospel lot of people were exposed to the gospel before the scripture was accessible. before the scripture was accessible. before the scripture was accessible. They would look at images and they would They would look at images and they would They would look at images and they would see the story of the crucifixion or the see the story of the crucifixion or the see the story of the crucifixion or the story of certain miracles. So there's a story of certain miracles. So there's a story of certain miracles. So there's a place for all of that. Now the power is place for all of that. Now the power is place for all of that. Now the power is in the preaching. So art needs to sort in the preaching. So art needs to sort in the preaching. So art needs to sort of submit itself to the discipline of of submit itself to the discipline of of submit itself to the discipline of scripture, handmaidaden of theology, scripture, handmaidaden of theology, scripture, handmaidaden of theology, servant of theology, we might say. So servant of theology, we might say. So servant of theology, we might say. So when music is used, right, kind of when music is used, right, kind of when music is used, right, kind of preparing the hearts, like I think when preparing the hearts, like I think when preparing the hearts, like I think when you walk into a gathering of thousands you walk into a gathering of thousands you walk into a gathering of thousands of believers singing worship songs, of believers singing worship songs, of believers singing worship songs, that's pretty powerful

that's pretty powerful that's pretty powerful >> because the world doesn't have anything >> because the world doesn't have anything >> because the world doesn't have anything like that. When do people in the secular like that. When do people in the secular like that. When do people in the secular culture even sing together anymore? You culture even sing together anymore? You culture even sing together anymore? You know, it's it's pretty rare. I went to a know, it's it's pretty rare. I went to a know, it's it's pretty rare. I went to a Paul McCartney concert a while ago and Paul McCartney concert a while ago and Paul McCartney concert a while ago and and you know when he was singing let it and you know when he was singing let it and you know when he was singing let it be everyone was singing and I thought be everyone was singing and I thought be everyone was singing and I thought this is kind of as close as this world this is kind of as close as this world this is kind of as close as this world gets to a worship experience but it's gets to a worship experience but it's gets to a worship experience but it's still not the same because the Bible still not the same because the Bible still not the same because the Bible says God inhabits the praises of his says God inhabits the praises of his says God inhabits the praises of his people and and so for me personally Bob people and and so for me personally Bob people and and so for me personally Bob when I first was exposed to the gospel when I first was exposed to the gospel when I first was exposed to the gospel on my high school campus I was walking on my high school campus I was walking on my high school campus I was walking across the campus and there was a group across the campus and there was a group across the campus and there was a group of Christians sitting on the front lawn of Christians sitting on the front lawn of Christians sitting on the front lawn singing songs about Jesus. And I always singing songs about Jesus. And I always singing songs about Jesus. And I always dismissed them as crazy and stupid and dismissed them as crazy and stupid and dismissed them as crazy and stupid and foolish. But the problem was I I did foolish. But the problem was I I did foolish. But the problem was I I did know a few of them previously and I used know a few of them previously and I used know a few of them previously and I used to party with some of them and I knew to party with some of them and I knew to party with some of them and I knew they were intelligent people and they they were intelligent people and they they were intelligent people and they weren't weird fanatical people and I saw weren't weird fanatical people and I saw weren't weird fanatical people and I saw them singing as Christians and I so I them singing as Christians and I so I them singing as Christians and I so I sat down and there was something about sat down and there was something about sat down and there was something about and this was the simplest song like and this was the simplest song like and this was the simplest song like three chords and a guitar nothing three chords and a guitar nothing three chords and a guitar nothing profound but there was something about profound but there was something about profound but there was something about the fact that people would sit in public the fact that people would sit in public the fact that people would sit in public and sing songs about and to Jesus That and sing songs about and to Jesus That and sing songs about and to Jesus That kind of moved me.

kind of moved me. kind of moved me. >> I thought that's interesting, you know, >> I thought that's interesting, you know, >> I thought that's interesting, you know, because I'd never seen anything like because I'd never seen anything like because I'd never seen anything like that. So that's music being harnessed that. So that's music being harnessed that. So that's music being harnessed and used for a good purpose. So coming and used for a good purpose. So coming and used for a good purpose. So coming back to the crusade, you know, I'll have back to the crusade, you know, I'll have back to the crusade, you know, I'll have I'll say something like in a moment. I'll say something like in a moment. I'll say something like in a moment. Phil Wickham is going to sing this song Phil Wickham is going to sing this song Phil Wickham is going to sing this song and if you want to come to Christ, make and if you want to come to Christ, make and if you want to come to Christ, make this stand for him, get up out of your this stand for him, get up out of your this stand for him, get up out of your seat and come forward. And then I'll say seat and come forward. And then I'll say seat and come forward. And then I'll say to Phil ahead of time, Phil, I need a to Phil ahead of time, Phil, I need a to Phil ahead of time, Phil, I need a break. So I wait for a natural break in break. So I wait for a natural break in break. So I wait for a natural break in the song. he'll sort of step back from the song. he'll sort of step back from the song. he'll sort of step back from the pulpit, maybe just play the chords the pulpit, maybe just play the chords the pulpit, maybe just play the chords through and I'll step back step up to through and I'll step back step up to through and I'll step back step up to the microphone, give a second appeal. I the microphone, give a second appeal. I the microphone, give a second appeal. I might do it a third and a fourth time. might do it a third and a fourth time. might do it a third and a fourth time. So, I will kind of work that out with a So, I will kind of work that out with a So, I will kind of work that out with a artist or the worship leader ahead of artist or the worship leader ahead of artist or the worship leader ahead of time. But, but I do believe God uses the time. But, but I do believe God uses the time. But, but I do believe God uses the music and when it's harnessed in the music and when it's harnessed in the music and when it's harnessed in the proper way, it combined with the proper way, it combined with the proper way, it combined with the preaching of the gospel, these can be preaching of the gospel, these can be preaching of the gospel, these can be powerful tools. powerful tools. powerful tools. >> That's so good. The handmaiden of >> That's so good. The handmaiden of >> That's so good. The handmaiden of theology. I'd never heard that quote theology. I'd never heard that quote theology. I'd never heard that quote before. Fantastic. before. Fantastic. before. Fantastic. >> Well, I was having a conversation with >> Well, I was having a conversation with >> Well, I was having a conversation with Rick Rubin recently. So, Rick Rubin is Rick Rubin recently. So, Rick Rubin is Rick Rubin recently. So, Rick Rubin is like many consider him the greatest like many consider him the greatest like many consider him the greatest producer alive today. Uh Rick Rubin was producer alive today. Uh Rick Rubin was producer alive today. Uh Rick Rubin was there and you know, he was with the there and you know, he was with the there and you know, he was with the Beasty Boys and with hard rock bands. He Beasty Boys and with hard rock bands. He Beasty Boys and with hard rock bands. He brought Johnny Cash back to a new brought Johnny Cash back to a new brought Johnny Cash back to a new audience, you know, when Johnny's career audience, you know, when Johnny's career audience, you know, when Johnny's career was waning. Rick went and heard him in a was waning. Rick went and heard him in a was waning. Rick went and heard him in a small little uh theater he was playing small little uh theater he was playing small little uh theater he was playing in. Said, "Johnny, I want to help you."

in. Said, "Johnny, I want to help you." in. Said, "Johnny, I want to help you." you know, and Johnny said, "What are you you know, and Johnny said, "What are you you know, and Johnny said, "What are you going to do for me that no one else has going to do for me that no one else has going to do for me that no one else has done?" He says, "I just want to hear done?" He says, "I just want to hear done?" He says, "I just want to hear your song." So, he went into Rick's your song." So, he went into Rick's your song." So, he went into Rick's front room. They set up some recording front room. They set up some recording front room. They set up some recording equipment and he just played his equipment and he just played his equipment and he just played his favorite songs and from those favorite songs and from those favorite songs and from those recordings, Rick, you know, brought that recordings, Rick, you know, brought that recordings, Rick, you know, brought that music to a huge audience. And Johnny had music to a huge audience. And Johnny had music to a huge audience. And Johnny had a resurgence at the end of his career. a resurgence at the end of his career. a resurgence at the end of his career. So Rick is this genius guy So Rick is this genius guy So Rick is this genius guy >> and he had me on his podcast. And so >> and he had me on his podcast. And so >> and he had me on his podcast. And so Rick says, "Tell me about Christian Rick says, "Tell me about Christian Rick says, "Tell me about Christian music." I said, "Okay." So I told him music." I said, "Okay." So I told him music." I said, "Okay." So I told him about what I experienced in the Jesus about what I experienced in the Jesus about what I experienced in the Jesus movement days and how the music often movement days and how the music often movement days and how the music often spoke to the audience. I said it didn't spoke to the audience. I said it didn't spoke to the audience. I said it didn't start out as an industry. It started out start out as an industry. It started out start out as an industry. It started out as uh a message to visitors. Like we as uh a message to visitors. Like we as uh a message to visitors. Like we would tell them what we were would tell them what we were would tell them what we were experiencing. As an example, there was a experiencing. As an example, there was a experiencing. As an example, there was a song back then by a band called Love song back then by a band called Love song back then by a band called Love Song and the lyrics were we're all Song and the lyrics were we're all Song and the lyrics were we're all gathered here because we all believe. If gathered here because we all believe. If gathered here because we all believe. If there's a doubter in the crowd, we ask there's a doubter in the crowd, we ask there's a doubter in the crowd, we ask you not to leave. Give a listen to the you not to leave. Give a listen to the you not to leave. Give a listen to the story. Hear the message that we bring. story. Hear the message that we bring. story. Hear the message that we bring. Let the faith swell up inside you. Lift Let the faith swell up inside you. Lift Let the faith swell up inside you. Lift your voice with us and sing. Accept him your voice with us and sing. Accept him your voice with us and sing. Accept him with your whole heart and use your own with your whole heart and use your own with your whole heart and use your own two hands. With one reach out to Jesus, two hands. With one reach out to Jesus, two hands. With one reach out to Jesus, with the other bring a friend. Well, with the other bring a friend. Well, with the other bring a friend. Well, what was so cool about that is we just what was so cool about that is we just what was so cool about that is we just explain what we're doing to a visitor.

explain what we're doing to a visitor. explain what we're doing to a visitor. So, and I said, you know, music today, So, and I said, you know, music today, So, and I said, you know, music today, Christian music doesn't do that like it Christian music doesn't do that like it Christian music doesn't do that like it used to. And I've challenged my friends used to. And I've challenged my friends used to. And I've challenged my friends who are artists, Christian artists, who are artists, Christian artists, who are artists, Christian artists, musicians to write songs more for the musicians to write songs more for the musicians to write songs more for the non-believer. A lot of our music today non-believer. A lot of our music today non-believer. A lot of our music today is worship. And Rick's observation was is worship. And Rick's observation was is worship. And Rick's observation was it all sounds the same to me it all sounds the same to me it all sounds the same to me >> and it sounds too perfect and and I >> and it sounds too perfect and and I >> and it sounds too perfect and and I think they need to talk more about the think they need to talk more about the think they need to talk more about the challenges and struggles of life. I challenges and struggles of life. I challenges and struggles of life. I said, I agree with you. And so Rick who said, I agree with you. And so Rick who said, I agree with you. And so Rick who is not a part of Christian music but is not a part of Christian music but is not a part of Christian music but really knows music intuitively was really knows music intuitively was really knows music intuitively was understanding one of the problems right understanding one of the problems right understanding one of the problems right now and and I think it's something we now and and I think it's something we now and and I think it's something we need to do more of explain what we need to do more of explain what we need to do more of explain what we believe to the secular culture and you believe to the secular culture and you believe to the secular culture and you music was very different you know when music was very different you know when music was very different you know when when I was a kid because we actually when I was a kid because we actually when I was a kid because we actually looked to musicians as messengers looked to musicians as messengers looked to musicians as messengers foolishly I might add it was the blind foolishly I might add it was the blind foolishly I might add it was the blind leading the blind we were influenced by leading the blind we were influenced by leading the blind we were influenced by the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Jimmyi Hendris, the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Jimmyi Hendris, the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Jimmyi Hendris, Jim Morrison and the Doors and others.

Jim Morrison and the Doors and others. Jim Morrison and the Doors and others. But the problem is all of our rock icons But the problem is all of our rock icons But the problem is all of our rock icons started dying on us. You know, Jimmy started dying on us. You know, Jimmy started dying on us. You know, Jimmy Hendrickx dead of a drug overdose. Jim Hendrickx dead of a drug overdose. Jim Hendrickx dead of a drug overdose. Jim Morrison dead of a drug overdose. Uh, Morrison dead of a drug overdose. Uh, Morrison dead of a drug overdose. Uh, and on the list goes. And so, but we and on the list goes. And so, but we and on the list goes. And so, but we were looking to these people to direct were looking to these people to direct were looking to these people to direct us and guide us. I don't think people us and guide us. I don't think people us and guide us. I don't think people are looking to music so much for that are looking to music so much for that are looking to music so much for that today. But I do believe there's a place today. But I do believe there's a place today. But I do believe there's a place to use music as a way to reach people to use music as a way to reach people to use music as a way to reach people that would not otherwise be reached. And that would not otherwise be reached. And that would not otherwise be reached. And so I think we have sort of drifted a bit so I think we have sort of drifted a bit so I think we have sort of drifted a bit in that way, but it can be a powerful in that way, but it can be a powerful in that way, but it can be a powerful tool. I again forgot your initial tool. I again forgot your initial tool. I again forgot your initial question which was really good. question which was really good. question which was really good. >> The role of music in invitations. >> The role of music in invitations. >> The role of music in invitations. >> Yeah, that's it. Well, that was my very >> Yeah, that's it. Well, that was my very >> Yeah, that's it. Well, that was my very long answer to that question. long answer to that question. long answer to that question. >> Uh that was great. I've listened to some >> Uh that was great. I've listened to some >> Uh that was great. I've listened to some Rick Rubin podcast obviously in my Rick Rubin podcast obviously in my Rick Rubin podcast obviously in my >> 52 years of life have purchased many >> 52 years of life have purchased many >> 52 years of life have purchased many albums. Yeah. albums. Yeah. albums. Yeah. >> That Rick has produced. >> That Rick has produced. >> That Rick has produced. >> And the thing that I find interesting >> And the thing that I find interesting >> And the thing that I find interesting about Rick, this has nothing to do about about Rick, this has nothing to do about about Rick, this has nothing to do about evangelism, but just as a musician, he evangelism, but just as a musician, he evangelism, but just as a musician, he doesn't play any instruments.

doesn't play any instruments. doesn't play any instruments. >> He has no training in on the production >> He has no training in on the production >> He has no training in on the production side. side. side. >> Yeah. And yet he brings an intangible to >> Yeah. And yet he brings an intangible to >> Yeah. And yet he brings an intangible to music in the albums that he has produced music in the albums that he has produced music in the albums that he has produced that bring out something original even that bring out something original even that bring out something original even within established bands that he's within established bands that he's within established bands that he's worked with. worked with. worked with. >> So that that is such an interesting >> So that that is such an interesting >> So that that is such an interesting observation about Christian music from a observation about Christian music from a observation about Christian music from a guy who isn't a Christian but is a lover guy who isn't a Christian but is a lover guy who isn't a Christian but is a lover of music. of music. of music. >> Yeah. And I would say Rick is very open >> Yeah. And I would say Rick is very open >> Yeah. And I would say Rick is very open spiritually and we had I I did this spiritually and we had I I did this spiritually and we had I I did this podcast that will be coming out soon uh podcast that will be coming out soon uh podcast that will be coming out soon uh with him. We talked for over two hours with him. We talked for over two hours with him. We talked for over two hours and he said he would like to do another and he said he would like to do another and he said he would like to do another one and he had a lot of questions still. one and he had a lot of questions still. one and he had a lot of questions still. I think that Rick is a real seeker of I think that Rick is a real seeker of I think that Rick is a real seeker of truth and he had excellent questions truth and he had excellent questions truth and he had excellent questions about the gospel about the Bible and so about the gospel about the Bible and so about the gospel about the Bible and so but he also you know is coming at it but he also you know is coming at it but he also you know is coming at it from a different perspective. from a different perspective. from a different perspective. Do you feel like part of I think part of Do you feel like part of I think part of Do you feel like part of I think part of what happens as pastors is we're like what happens as pastors is we're like what happens as pastors is we're like two steps removed from reality many two steps removed from reality many two steps removed from reality many times. We're times. We're times. We're >> around we're on a church staff. We're >> around we're on a church staff. We're >> around we're on a church staff. We're with Christians all the time and then with Christians all the time and then with Christians all the time and then we're at church and just it's mostly we're at church and just it's mostly we're at church and just it's mostly Christians Christians Christians >> and just you talking about being hey I >> and just you talking about being hey I >> and just you talking about being hey I got interviewed by Rick Rubin. I I I I'm got interviewed by Rick Rubin. I I I I'm got interviewed by Rick Rubin. I I I I'm guessing that is your experience in guessing that is your experience in guessing that is your experience in evangelism evangelism evangelism >> that and what the Lord has done in your >> that and what the Lord has done in your >> that and what the Lord has done in your life evangelistically that led to that life evangelistically that led to that life evangelistically that led to that that opportunity. But do you feel like that opportunity. But do you feel like that opportunity. But do you feel like pastors need to get out more and just pastors need to get out more and just pastors need to get out more and just need to talk to you got to talk to

need to talk to you got to talk to need to talk to you got to talk to somebody who's not a Christian? somebody who's not a Christian? somebody who's not a Christian? >> Yes, I do believe they should. And you >> Yes, I do believe they should. And you >> Yes, I do believe they should. And you know, one way to do that is podcasting know, one way to do that is podcasting know, one way to do that is podcasting is a great way to listen in on other is a great way to listen in on other is a great way to listen in on other people's conversations. I want to know people's conversations. I want to know people's conversations. I want to know what people are thinking and saying. I what people are thinking and saying. I what people are thinking and saying. I want to know the questions they're want to know the questions they're want to know the questions they're asking. The problem is pastors are asking. The problem is pastors are asking. The problem is pastors are sometimes asking they're answering sometimes asking they're answering sometimes asking they're answering questions no one is asking questions no one is asking questions no one is asking >> and they're not answering the questions >> and they're not answering the questions >> and they're not answering the questions that are being asked. You know for years that are being asked. You know for years that are being asked. You know for years atheism was making sort of a comeback. atheism was making sort of a comeback. atheism was making sort of a comeback. They called it the new atheism. They called it the new atheism. They called it the new atheism. That is I wouldn't say it's dead but That is I wouldn't say it's dead but That is I wouldn't say it's dead but it's not on the rise. It's a whole it's not on the rise. It's a whole it's not on the rise. It's a whole different time now. Now everybody's different time now. Now everybody's different time now. Now everybody's spiritual. spiritual. spiritual. >> People want spiritual experiences. They >> People want spiritual experiences. They >> People want spiritual experiences. They think they're having spiritual think they're having spiritual think they're having spiritual experiences and indeed they are, but not experiences and indeed they are, but not experiences and indeed they are, but not necessarily with God. So, we have a necessarily with God. So, we have a necessarily with God. So, we have a different role. We have to help them different role. We have to help them different role. We have to help them sort these things out and bring a sort these things out and bring a sort these things out and bring a biblical perspective. But I did a a long biblical perspective. But I did a a long biblical perspective. But I did a a long form podcast with Jordan Peterson and he form podcast with Jordan Peterson and he form podcast with Jordan Peterson and he very intelligent man. And uh I I very intelligent man. And uh I I very intelligent man. And uh I I admitted to him after we were done.

admitted to him after we were done. admitted to him after we were done. Jordan, there were times you were saying Jordan, there were times you were saying Jordan, there were times you were saying things I didn't understand. [laughter] I things I didn't understand. [laughter] I things I didn't understand. [laughter] I thought I probably shouldn't admit it, thought I probably shouldn't admit it, thought I probably shouldn't admit it, but it was true. I didn't know what what but it was true. I didn't know what what but it was true. I didn't know what what he meant by certain terms. I just sort he meant by certain terms. I just sort he meant by certain terms. I just sort of nodded along. [laughter] But uh he's of nodded along. [laughter] But uh he's of nodded along. [laughter] But uh he's a very kind man, a very gentle man. And a very kind man, a very gentle man. And a very kind man, a very gentle man. And uh it's so funny because after we were uh it's so funny because after we were uh it's so funny because after we were done, he said, "Do you like music?" And done, he said, "Do you like music?" And done, he said, "Do you like music?" And I said, "I love music." He was, "I'm I said, "I love music." He was, "I'm I said, "I love music." He was, "I'm going to go to a honky tonk." We were in going to go to a honky tonk." We were in going to go to a honky tonk." We were in Nashville. I'm going to a honky tonk Nashville. I'm going to a honky tonk Nashville. I'm going to a honky tonk later and listening to music. Would you later and listening to music. Would you later and listening to music. Would you like to join us? And we said, "Yes." And like to join us? And we said, "Yes." And like to join us? And we said, "Yes." And so we ended up sitting in this little so we ended up sitting in this little so we ended up sitting in this little honky tonk uh while a country western honky tonk uh while a country western honky tonk uh while a country western band was playing these old country type band was playing these old country type band was playing these old country type songs with Jordan Peterson. So it was songs with Jordan Peterson. So it was songs with Jordan Peterson. So it was cool because someone said to me Jordan cool because someone said to me Jordan cool because someone said to me Jordan never asked his guest to go do anything never asked his guest to go do anything never asked his guest to go do anything with him socially. with him socially. with him socially. >> So you know I think we maybe had a >> So you know I think we maybe had a >> So you know I think we maybe had a little bit of a connection there. But little bit of a connection there. But little bit of a connection there. But you know be a friendly person be you know be a friendly person be you know be a friendly person be interested in people and listen to them. interested in people and listen to them. interested in people and listen to them. And my objective is not to win the And my objective is not to win the And my objective is not to win the argument. It's to win the soul.

argument. It's to win the soul. argument. It's to win the soul. >> So when I'm talking to people that may >> So when I'm talking to people that may >> So when I'm talking to people that may have a different worldview than I have, have a different worldview than I have, have a different worldview than I have, I won't interrupt them. I won't cut them I won't interrupt them. I won't cut them I won't interrupt them. I won't cut them off when they say something I don't off when they say something I don't off when they say something I don't agree with. I'll hear them out, let them agree with. I'll hear them out, let them agree with. I'll hear them out, let them say it, then I'll give a response. Jesus say it, then I'll give a response. Jesus say it, then I'll give a response. Jesus with the woman at the well is a perfect with the woman at the well is a perfect with the woman at the well is a perfect biblical example. you know, she's biblical example. you know, she's biblical example. you know, she's riffing, talking about things she thinks riffing, talking about things she thinks riffing, talking about things she thinks and and Jesus is listening and but then and and Jesus is listening and but then and and Jesus is listening and but then he draws on what she's saying and then he draws on what she's saying and then he draws on what she's saying and then applies truth to what she is saying as applies truth to what she is saying as applies truth to what she is saying as well. And I think that, you know, we well. And I think that, you know, we well. And I think that, you know, we want to be good listeners. We want to want to be good listeners. We want to want to be good listeners. We want to observe culture and we want to have observe culture and we want to have observe culture and we want to have biblical answers to what people are biblical answers to what people are biblical answers to what people are thinking. And so, as a pastor, I try to thinking. And so, as a pastor, I try to thinking. And so, as a pastor, I try to just engage with and have relationships just engage with and have relationships just engage with and have relationships with people that are not believers. with people that are not believers. with people that are not believers. And so I can know what they're dealing And so I can know what they're dealing And so I can know what they're dealing with. And but I do find that that's the with. And but I do find that that's the with. And but I do find that that's the first step to helping them become first step to helping them become first step to helping them become believers. Some people you can reach believers. Some people you can reach believers. Some people you can reach very quickly. Others it takes years. Hey very quickly. Others it takes years. Hey very quickly. Others it takes years. Hey my mother, it took decades to reach her.

my mother, it took decades to reach her. my mother, it took decades to reach her. >> You know people who saw the Jesus >> You know people who saw the Jesus >> You know people who saw the Jesus Revolution film asked, "Did your mother Revolution film asked, "Did your mother Revolution film asked, "Did your mother ever become a Christian?" Yes, she did. ever become a Christian?" Yes, she did. ever become a Christian?" Yes, she did. Basically at the age of 70 and Basically at the age of 70 and Basically at the age of 70 and tragically she died died not long after tragically she died died not long after tragically she died died not long after that. So I prayed for her for decades. that. So I prayed for her for decades. that. So I prayed for her for decades. But yes, do have relationships with But yes, do have relationships with But yes, do have relationships with non-believers. Be a friendly person. Be non-believers. Be a friendly person. Be non-believers. Be a friendly person. Be a person that they want to talk to. And a person that they want to talk to. And a person that they want to talk to. And uh that's very important. Get out of uh that's very important. Get out of uh that's very important. Get out of your bubble. I was joking, you know, my your bubble. I was joking, you know, my your bubble. I was joking, you know, my last message about we want to live in a last message about we want to live in a last message about we want to live in a Christian bubble and we want to isolate. Christian bubble and we want to isolate. Christian bubble and we want to isolate. You know, uh remember my son Jonathan You know, uh remember my son Jonathan You know, uh remember my son Jonathan was talking about his childhood and he was talking about his childhood and he was talking about his childhood and he said, "It's funny. you know, all my said, "It's funny. you know, all my said, "It's funny. you know, all my friends were from Christian homes and friends were from Christian homes and friends were from Christian homes and then he went to a Christian school. And then he went to a Christian school. And then he went to a Christian school. And he said, "And so they could only watch he said, "And so they could only watch he said, "And so they could only watch Veggie Tales and they could only listen Veggie Tales and they could only listen Veggie Tales and they could only listen to Christian music." He said, "But my to Christian music." He said, "But my to Christian music." He said, "But my dad would sit and watch the Simpsons dad would sit and watch the Simpsons dad would sit and watch the Simpsons with me and on the way to school we with me and on the way to school we with me and on the way to school we would listen to Jimmyi Hendricks and the would listen to Jimmyi Hendricks and the would listen to Jimmyi Hendricks and the Beatles." And I thought as I was Beatles." And I thought as I was Beatles." And I thought as I was listening, wait, did I do something listening, wait, did I do something listening, wait, did I do something wrong? [laughter] But I think what I was wrong? [laughter] But I think what I was wrong? [laughter] But I think what I was wanting to do was say it's okay to wanting to do was say it's okay to wanting to do was say it's okay to appreciate good art, good music. Not appreciate good art, good music. Not appreciate good art, good music. Not that I think Simp The Simpsons is good that I think Simp The Simpsons is good that I think Simp The Simpsons is good art, but he liked it. I found it amusing art, but he liked it. I found it amusing art, but he liked it. I found it amusing at times. I would watch it with him and at times. I would watch it with him and at times. I would watch it with him and when I saw things that were wrong, I when I saw things that were wrong, I when I saw things that were wrong, I would explain it to him. I was trying to would explain it to him. I was trying to would explain it to him. I was trying to help him learn how to interpret culture help him learn how to interpret culture help him learn how to interpret culture and not just put them in a little bubble and not just put them in a little bubble and not just put them in a little bubble because I think, you know, we can put a because I think, you know, we can put a because I think, you know, we can put a person in a bubble. Like uh Katy Perry, person in a bubble. Like uh Katy Perry, person in a bubble. Like uh Katy Perry, a well-known uh artist out there, used a well-known uh artist out there, used a well-known uh artist out there, used to be Katie Hudson and she was a

to be Katie Hudson and she was a to be Katie Hudson and she was a Christian singer. In fact, she played at Christian singer. In fact, she played at Christian singer. In fact, she played at some of the services we did in her early some of the services we did in her early some of the services we did in her early days. But she was raised by her own, you days. But she was raised by her own, you days. But she was raised by her own, you know, she has talked about it publicly know, she has talked about it publicly know, she has talked about it publicly in a very legalistic Christian home. Her in a very legalistic Christian home. Her in a very legalistic Christian home. Her mother and father wouldn't let her mother and father wouldn't let her mother and father wouldn't let her listen to any secular music. She listen to any secular music. She listen to any secular music. She couldn't watch anything on television couldn't watch anything on television couldn't watch anything on television and so they kept her in the bubble. So and so they kept her in the bubble. So and so they kept her in the bubble. So there came a point where Katie rebelled there came a point where Katie rebelled there came a point where Katie rebelled >> and went out to see what it was that she >> and went out to see what it was that she >> and went out to see what it was that she was being kept from. I'm not saying you was being kept from. I'm not saying you was being kept from. I'm not saying you should encourage your Christian kids to should encourage your Christian kids to should encourage your Christian kids to do things that are sinful. The very do things that are sinful. The very do things that are sinful. The very opposite is what I'm encouraging. But opposite is what I'm encouraging. But opposite is what I'm encouraging. But what I'm saying is enter into their what I'm saying is enter into their what I'm saying is enter into their world, help them to interpret it. world, help them to interpret it. world, help them to interpret it. Interpret it and prepare them for it so Interpret it and prepare them for it so Interpret it and prepare them for it so they can live as a Christian. The most they can live as a Christian. The most they can live as a Christian. The most challenging time for kids is the time challenging time for kids is the time challenging time for kids is the time when when they're out of the house. You when when they're out of the house. You when when they're out of the house. You know, when they're home going to know, when they're home going to know, when they're home going to elementary school and junior high and elementary school and junior high and elementary school and junior high and high school, we still have influence, high school, we still have influence, high school, we still have influence, but we send them off to college. We send but we send them off to college. We send but we send them off to college. We send our kids off to these secular our kids off to these secular our kids off to these secular universities where they're universities where they're universities where they're indoctrinating kids into Marxism and indoctrinating kids into Marxism and indoctrinating kids into Marxism and anti-semitism and all this woke ideology anti-semitism and all this woke ideology anti-semitism and all this woke ideology today and it's like insane. So, you today and it's like insane. So, you today and it's like insane. So, you know, our job is not done. But I kind of know, our job is not done. But I kind of know, our job is not done. But I kind of got off on another subject, but no, we got off on another subject, but no, we got off on another subject, but no, we got to get out of our Christian bubble got to get out of our Christian bubble got to get out of our Christian bubble and we need to get out there and talk to and we need to get out there and talk to and we need to get out there and talk to real people in the real world.

real people in the real world. real people in the real world. >> I I appreciate the diversion. I feel >> I I appreciate the diversion. I feel >> I I appreciate the diversion. I feel like a great dad now. Uh because my kids like a great dad now. Uh because my kids like a great dad now. Uh because my kids are musicians and I expose them to all are musicians and I expose them to all are musicians and I expose them to all kinds of music and uh you know obviously kinds of music and uh you know obviously kinds of music and uh you know obviously nothing that I would um think is sinful. nothing that I would um think is sinful. nothing that I would um think is sinful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But and you know same thing with >> But and you know same thing with >> But and you know same thing with television. I mean that's one of the television. I mean that's one of the television. I mean that's one of the things that you know we love Doctor Who things that you know we love Doctor Who things that you know we love Doctor Who uh at at our house and so but there's uh at at our house and so but there's uh at at our house and so but there's been moments where we've had to pause it been moments where we've had to pause it been moments where we've had to pause it and say okay what's the worldview that's and say okay what's the worldview that's and say okay what's the worldview that's being expressed here? And these have being expressed here? And these have being expressed here? And these have become really teachable moments become really teachable moments become really teachable moments >> for uh for our family. And um but you >> for uh for our family. And um but you >> for uh for our family. And um but you know, we love Veggie Tales, too. know, we love Veggie Tales, too. know, we love Veggie Tales, too. >> I don't like Veggie Tales. Never did. >> I don't like Veggie Tales. Never did. >> I don't like Veggie Tales. Never did. [laughter] I'm against animated [laughter] I'm against animated [laughter] I'm against animated characters without arms and legs. They characters without arms and legs. They characters without arms and legs. They just sort of floated around. [laughter] just sort of floated around. [laughter] just sort of floated around. [laughter] >> Okay, so last question. Um, how would >> Okay, so last question. Um, how would >> Okay, so last question. Um, how would you encourage a pastor to fan his you encourage a pastor to fan his you encourage a pastor to fan his evangelistic gift into flame? evangelistic gift into flame? evangelistic gift into flame? >> Yes. Well, Paul said to Timothy, "Stir >> Yes. Well, Paul said to Timothy, "Stir >> Yes. Well, Paul said to Timothy, "Stir up the gift that is in you by the laying up the gift that is in you by the laying up the gift that is in you by the laying on of hands." And a better translation on of hands." And a better translation on of hands." And a better translation would be, "Fan it into full flame." So, would be, "Fan it into full flame." So, would be, "Fan it into full flame." So, sort of like if you're sitting in front sort of like if you're sitting in front sort of like if you're sitting in front of your fire and the fire begins to die, of your fire and the fire begins to die, of your fire and the fire begins to die, uh you put another log in the fire. So, uh you put another log in the fire. So, uh you put another log in the fire. So, you have to feed the fire. And the same you have to feed the fire. And the same you have to feed the fire. And the same is true of evangelism. You got to feed is true of evangelism. You got to feed is true of evangelism. You got to feed it. You know what can happen to a pastor it. You know what can happen to a pastor it. You know what can happen to a pastor with evangelism is we can say, "Well, I with evangelism is we can say, "Well, I with evangelism is we can say, "Well, I just preached a sermon Sunday. I'm off just preached a sermon Sunday. I'm off just preached a sermon Sunday. I'm off duty."

duty." duty." But Paul says, "Be on duty at all But Paul says, "Be on duty at all But Paul says, "Be on duty at all times." You know, be instant in out of times." You know, be instant in out of times." You know, be instant in out of season. Preach the gospel. You know, season. Preach the gospel. You know, season. Preach the gospel. You know, always be ready. And opportunities will always be ready. And opportunities will always be ready. And opportunities will open up for you. And I think as you look open up for you. And I think as you look open up for you. And I think as you look for those opportunities to share your for those opportunities to share your for those opportunities to share your faith, you'll find they're out there all faith, you'll find they're out there all faith, you'll find they're out there all the time. I think the reason we don't the time. I think the reason we don't the time. I think the reason we don't see them is we're not looking for them see them is we're not looking for them see them is we're not looking for them or literally we don't want to do that or literally we don't want to do that or literally we don't want to do that because we see it as our job. because we see it as our job. because we see it as our job. >> I am a Christian and as a follower of >> I am a Christian and as a follower of >> I am a Christian and as a follower of Jesus, I've been given the great Jesus, I've been given the great Jesus, I've been given the great commission which is to go into all the commission which is to go into all the commission which is to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Yes, I have world and preach the gospel. Yes, I have world and preach the gospel. Yes, I have a job as a pastor, but I would still do a job as a pastor, but I would still do a job as a pastor, but I would still do this even if it wasn't my quote unquote this even if it wasn't my quote unquote this even if it wasn't my quote unquote job because it really is my calling. And job because it really is my calling. And job because it really is my calling. And and I think if your calling turns into a and I think if your calling turns into a and I think if your calling turns into a job, Houston, we have a problem. job, Houston, we have a problem. job, Houston, we have a problem. >> It must remain your passion and maybe to >> It must remain your passion and maybe to >> It must remain your passion and maybe to some I would say as Jesus said to the some I would say as Jesus said to the some I would say as Jesus said to the church of Ephesus, church of Ephesus, church of Ephesus, return to your first love.

return to your first love. return to your first love. >> You know, get back to the things you did >> You know, get back to the things you did >> You know, get back to the things you did when you were a younger believer. And when you were a younger believer. And when you were a younger believer. And your congregation will get passionate your congregation will get passionate your congregation will get passionate about what you're passionate about. So about what you're passionate about. So about what you're passionate about. So if they see that from you in the pulpit, if they see that from you in the pulpit, if they see that from you in the pulpit, they'll emulate that as well. You model they'll emulate that as well. You model they'll emulate that as well. You model it for them. And and when they're with it for them. And and when they're with it for them. And and when they're with you outside of the pulpit, you're having you outside of the pulpit, you're having you outside of the pulpit, you're having lunch with people from your church or lunch with people from your church or lunch with people from your church or whatever, they see that that these whatever, they see that that these whatever, they see that that these things are important to you just as a things are important to you just as a things are important to you just as a Christian. So we we have to avoid Christian. So we we have to avoid Christian. So we we have to avoid becoming jaded. Avoid becoming becoming jaded. Avoid becoming becoming jaded. Avoid becoming professionals. I don't want to be a professionals. I don't want to be a professionals. I don't want to be a professional. professional. professional. >> I I want to be someone that is faithful >> I I want to be someone that is faithful >> I I want to be someone that is faithful in that calling to the very end. You in that calling to the very end. You in that calling to the very end. You know, when Paul said, you know, in his know, when Paul said, you know, in his know, when Paul said, you know, in his last epistle, I fought the good fight, I last epistle, I fought the good fight, I last epistle, I fought the good fight, I kept the faith, I finished the course. kept the faith, I finished the course. kept the faith, I finished the course. Henceforth, there is laid up for me a Henceforth, there is laid up for me a Henceforth, there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, crown of righteousness, which the Lord, crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give to me in the righteous judge, will give to me in the righteous judge, will give to me in that day. And not to me only, but to all that day. And not to me only, but to all that day. And not to me only, but to all who love his appearing. I fought the who love his appearing. I fought the who love his appearing. I fought the good fight. I kept the faith. I finished good fight. I kept the faith. I finished good fight. I kept the faith. I finished the course. You just keep doing it every the course. You just keep doing it every the course. You just keep doing it every single day. I don't recommend anyone single day. I don't recommend anyone single day. I don't recommend anyone goes into ministry who is not called.

goes into ministry who is not called. goes into ministry who is not called. It's not a profession. It's not a good It's not a profession. It's not a good It's not a profession. It's not a good career choice. Uh I heard one preacher, career choice. Uh I heard one preacher, career choice. Uh I heard one preacher, Alan Redpath, say, "A preacher needs the Alan Redpath, say, "A preacher needs the Alan Redpath, say, "A preacher needs the mind of a scholar, the heart of a child, mind of a scholar, the heart of a child, mind of a scholar, the heart of a child, and the height of a rhinoceros." You're and the height of a rhinoceros." You're and the height of a rhinoceros." You're going to be second-guessed. You're going going to be second-guessed. You're going going to be second-guessed. You're going to be challenged. You're going to be to be challenged. You're going to be to be challenged. You're going to be lied about. You're going to be attacked lied about. You're going to be attacked lied about. You're going to be attacked throughout your entire life. However, if throughout your entire life. However, if throughout your entire life. However, if you're called to do this, you've got to you're called to do this, you've got to you're called to do this, you've got to do this do this do this >> and you have a responsibility to use the >> and you have a responsibility to use the >> and you have a responsibility to use the gift that God has given you. But if you gift that God has given you. But if you gift that God has given you. But if you could be happy doing anything else, do could be happy doing anything else, do could be happy doing anything else, do that. that. that. >> Be a Christian businessman. >> Be a Christian businessman. >> Be a Christian businessman. Be a Christian whatever it is you're Be a Christian whatever it is you're Be a Christian whatever it is you're doing. Do that for the glory of God and doing. Do that for the glory of God and doing. Do that for the glory of God and use that platform like my friend Larry use that platform like my friend Larry use that platform like my friend Larry who sells luxury eyewear. Do that for who sells luxury eyewear. Do that for who sells luxury eyewear. Do that for the glory of God and you can be an the glory of God and you can be an the glory of God and you can be an evangelist and be a faithful congregant evangelist and be a faithful congregant evangelist and be a faithful congregant and be involved in your church. We need and be involved in your church. We need and be involved in your church. We need a lot of people doing that. But if you a lot of people doing that. But if you a lot of people doing that. But if you have this calling of God, you must have this calling of God, you must have this calling of God, you must pursue this calling of God. Otherwise, pursue this calling of God. Otherwise, pursue this calling of God. Otherwise, it's disobedience.

it's disobedience. it's disobedience. But but don't let your calling become a But but don't let your calling become a But but don't let your calling become a profession. Don't let that calling profession. Don't let that calling profession. Don't let that calling become your job. It is a privilege. And become your job. It is a privilege. And become your job. It is a privilege. And I recognize it's I'm privileged to do I recognize it's I'm privileged to do I recognize it's I'm privileged to do what I do. what I do. what I do. >> It's not always easy. Other times it's >> It's not always easy. Other times it's >> It's not always easy. Other times it's it's just so incredibly fulfilling and it's just so incredibly fulfilling and it's just so incredibly fulfilling and so much fun and such a blessing and so much fun and such a blessing and so much fun and such a blessing and other times it's really hard. other times it's really hard. other times it's really hard. >> But that's it just goes with the turf, >> But that's it just goes with the turf, >> But that's it just goes with the turf, you know. He goes with the turf and if you know. He goes with the turf and if you know. He goes with the turf and if that's what you're called to do, that's that's what you're called to do, that's that's what you're called to do, that's what you got to do. what you got to do. what you got to do. >> Yeah. I I think there is a I and I wish >> Yeah. I I think there is a I and I wish >> Yeah. I I think there is a I and I wish that every Christian could experience that every Christian could experience that every Christian could experience this. this. this. >> Pastors for sure that they could >> Pastors for sure that they could >> Pastors for sure that they could experience this. There is such a joy in experience this. There is such a joy in experience this. There is such a joy in leading someone to Christ. leading someone to Christ. leading someone to Christ. >> Yes. And uh so and what you know once >> Yes. And uh so and what you know once >> Yes. And uh so and what you know once again at our church I've personally led again at our church I've personally led again at our church I've personally led so many people to Christ at church from so many people to Christ at church from so many people to Christ at church from the pulpit certainly but just like I we the pulpit certainly but just like I we the pulpit certainly but just like I we my next door neighbors just came to know my next door neighbors just came to know my next door neighbors just came to know Jesus Jesus Jesus >> um a few weeks ago and they've been they >> um a few weeks ago and they've been they >> um a few weeks ago and they've been they just started attending our church they just started attending our church they just started attending our church they came forward came forward came forward >> when I gave an invitation and uh I >> when I gave an invitation and uh I >> when I gave an invitation and uh I started crying. I was a I was a hot mess started crying. I was a I was a hot mess started crying. I was a I was a hot mess when I when I was leading the group that when I when I was leading the group that when I when I was leading the group that had come forward. But Greg, I'm I don't had come forward. But Greg, I'm I don't had come forward. But Greg, I'm I don't even think my feet touched the ground even think my feet touched the ground even think my feet touched the ground the rest of that day as I was as I was the rest of that day as I was as I was the rest of that day as I was as I was uh going home. Yeah. And there is just uh going home. Yeah. And there is just uh going home. Yeah. And there is just there, this is probably a bad way to say there, this is probably a bad way to say there, this is probably a bad way to say it, but something just addicting about it, but something just addicting about it, but something just addicting about >> this just this incredible joy of leading >> this just this incredible joy of leading >> this just this incredible joy of leading someone to Christ. And I think if someone to Christ. And I think if someone to Christ. And I think if everyone could experience that at least everyone could experience that at least everyone could experience that at least once, they would share the gospel with once, they would share the gospel with once, they would share the gospel with everyone they came into contact with.

everyone they came into contact with. everyone they came into contact with. >> I agree. And the stats tell us that most >> I agree. And the stats tell us that most >> I agree. And the stats tell us that most Christians never share their faith. That Christians never share their faith. That Christians never share their faith. That makes the devil very happy makes the devil very happy makes the devil very happy >> and that makes God unhappy because as I >> and that makes God unhappy because as I >> and that makes God unhappy because as I said earlier, you're imparting life by said earlier, you're imparting life by said earlier, you're imparting life by telling someone about Jesus, but it's telling someone about Jesus, but it's telling someone about Jesus, but it's lifegiving. You just illustrated it. lifegiving. You just illustrated it. lifegiving. You just illustrated it. >> Your feet were touching the ground, >> Your feet were touching the ground, >> Your feet were touching the ground, >> you know. So it was and that like you're >> you know. So it was and that like you're >> you know. So it was and that like you're doing something that every Christian doing something that every Christian doing something that every Christian should do, not just what every pastor should do, not just what every pastor should do, not just what every pastor should do. And every Christian can do should do. And every Christian can do should do. And every Christian can do this. And you know, take the risk. You this. And you know, take the risk. You this. And you know, take the risk. You ask me why pastors don't give ask me why pastors don't give ask me why pastors don't give invitations. Why do Christians not say invitations. Why do Christians not say invitations. Why do Christians not say to people, "Would you like to accept to people, "Would you like to accept to people, "Would you like to accept Jesus Christ?" Fear of failure. Same Jesus Christ?" Fear of failure. Same Jesus Christ?" Fear of failure. Same thing. thing. thing. >> You know, you're afraid they'll say no. >> You know, you're afraid they'll say no. >> You know, you're afraid they'll say no. But but the thing is, take the risk. But but the thing is, take the risk. But but the thing is, take the risk. It's worth it. And if they say yes, a It's worth it. And if they say yes, a It's worth it. And if they say yes, a great blessing is in store for you and great blessing is in store for you and great blessing is in store for you and for the person who you're praying with. for the person who you're praying with. for the person who you're praying with. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Great. Thank you so much. >> Great. Thank you so much. >> Great. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. This is awesome. [music] >> Thank you. This is awesome. [music] >> Thank you. This is awesome. [music] >> Hey, thanks for joining me today.

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