INTERVIEW WITH MICHAEL FRANZESE

So you're following in your father's So you're following in your father's footsteps. You're going to become a made footsteps. You're going to become a made footsteps. You're going to become a made man. So what is the process of of having man. So what is the process of of having man. So what is the process of of having that happen to you? Uh and and I that happen to you? Uh and and I that happen to you? Uh and and I remember you told me a story about what remember you told me a story about what remember you told me a story about what when you were initiated. Tell me what when you were initiated. Tell me what when you were initiated. Tell me what happens when you become a part of the happens when you become a part of the happens when you become a part of the mob. [music] This is the day. [music] This is the day. [music] The day where life begins. This is the day. [music] This is the day. [music] The day where life begins. [music] So you're raised in a home where your So you're raised in a home where your father is a mobster. Is that the right father is a mobster. Is that the right father is a mobster. Is that the right word to use for him? Sunny Frances. word to use for him? Sunny Frances. word to use for him? Sunny Frances. And um how would you describe what he And um how would you describe what he And um how would you describe what he did for the Columbbo Crime Family? did for the Columbbo Crime Family? did for the Columbbo Crime Family? >> My dad was the under boss, which means >> My dad was the under boss, which means >> My dad was the under boss, which means he was the second in command.

he was the second in command. he was the second in command. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> So he was the allegedly the closest to >> So he was the allegedly the closest to >> So he was the allegedly the closest to the boss. the boss. the boss. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And um >> And um >> And um >> so if the boss died, does he immediately >> so if the boss died, does he immediately >> so if the boss died, does he immediately become the dawn of the family? become the dawn of the family? become the dawn of the family? >> Not necessarily. I mean, he would be >> Not necessarily. I mean, he would be >> Not necessarily. I mean, he would be first in line, but it's there's a lot of first in line, but it's there's a lot of first in line, but it's there's a lot of politics involved, you know. So uh but politics involved, you know. So uh but politics involved, you know. So uh but in my father's case, he would have been in my father's case, he would have been in my father's case, he would have been because he was popular and well-liked because he was popular and well-liked because he was popular and well-liked among the men. So he would have been he among the men. So he would have been he among the men. So he would have been he would have been the next to uh would have been the next to uh would have been the next to uh >> Was he an enforcer? Didn't you tell me >> Was he an enforcer? Didn't you tell me >> Was he an enforcer? Didn't you tell me that once? that once? that once? >> You know, he was by reputation. He was >> You know, he was by reputation. He was >> You know, he was by reputation. He was >> because my dad was a pretty tough guy. >> because my dad was a pretty tough guy. >> because my dad was a pretty tough guy. >> Yeah. Define enforcer. >> Yeah. Define enforcer. >> Yeah. Define enforcer. >> You know, he made sure that uh people >> You know, he made sure that uh people >> You know, he made sure that uh people stayed in line in the family and uh if stayed in line in the family and uh if stayed in line in the family and uh if there was any dirty work to be done, he there was any dirty work to be done, he there was any dirty work to be done, he would handle it either himself or he would handle it either himself or he would handle it either himself or he would put the team together to do it. would put the team together to do it. would put the team together to do it. When did you become aware of the fact When did you become aware of the fact When did you become aware of the fact that this is what your father did? Was that this is what your father did? Was that this is what your father did? Was because I remember you told me he would because I remember you told me he would because I remember you told me he would show up at your baseball games and he show up at your baseball games and he show up at your baseball games and he would maybe have some guys with him and would maybe have some guys with him and would maybe have some guys with him and >> and tell me how that played out. >> and tell me how that played out. >> and tell me how that played out. >> Well, you know, you know, going back >> Well, you know, you know, going back >> Well, you know, you know, going back though, my my earliest memory of though, my my earliest memory of though, my my earliest memory of something strange with my dad. We were something strange with my dad. We were something strange with my dad. We were living in Brooklyn.

living in Brooklyn. living in Brooklyn. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And for some reason, he moved us out to >> And for some reason, he moved us out to >> And for some reason, he moved us out to Long Island to my grandmother's house, Long Island to my grandmother's house, Long Island to my grandmother's house, my mother's mother and father. and he my mother's mother and father. and he my mother's mother and father. and he was gone for a couple of days and I'm was gone for a couple of days and I'm was gone for a couple of days and I'm I'm like four years old but I have a I'm like four years old but I have a I'm like four years old but I have a memory of this for some reason this memory of this for some reason this memory of this for some reason this specific incident. um we hadn't seen him specific incident. um we hadn't seen him specific incident. um we hadn't seen him and then one morning uh he comes all of and then one morning uh he comes all of and then one morning uh he comes all of a sudden he hadn't sh my my father had a a sudden he hadn't sh my my father had a a sudden he hadn't sh my my father had a heavy beard he hadn't shaved he came in heavy beard he hadn't shaved he came in heavy beard he hadn't shaved he came in the house he embraced my mother I was the house he embraced my mother I was the house he embraced my mother I was sitting on the steps and I was watching sitting on the steps and I was watching sitting on the steps and I was watching this and then I noticed his right-hand this and then I noticed his right-hand this and then I noticed his right-hand guy who you know later on I knew it was guy who you know later on I knew it was guy who you know later on I knew it was his right-hand guy Joey was out on the his right-hand guy Joey was out on the his right-hand guy Joey was out on the porch kind of watching things you know porch kind of watching things you know porch kind of watching things you know while my dad was inside and then he came while my dad was inside and then he came while my dad was inside and then he came over and he embraced me and hugged me I over and he embraced me and hugged me I over and he embraced me and hugged me I miss your son all that and then he miss your son all that and then he miss your son all that and then he And what I found out later, our family And what I found out later, our family And what I found out later, our family was at war during that time. was at war during that time. was at war during that time. >> Goodness. >> Goodness. >> Goodness. >> And so they were taken to the >> And so they were taken to the >> And so they were taken to the mattresses, as they say. And it was it mattresses, as they say. And it was it mattresses, as they say. And it was it was quite a while that he was gone. We was quite a while that he was gone. We was quite a while that he was gone. We wouldn't see him that much. So that was wouldn't see him that much. So that was wouldn't see him that much. So that was the first realization. And for some the first realization. And for some the first realization. And for some reason, Greg, that sticks out. I I never reason, Greg, that sticks out. I I never reason, Greg, that sticks out. I I never forgot that. And I was like four years forgot that. And I was like four years forgot that. And I was like four years old.

old. old. >> And you really loved your dad and >> And you really loved your dad and >> And you really loved your dad and admired him, didn't you? admired him, didn't you? admired him, didn't you? >> I did. Yes. >> I did. Yes. >> I did. Yes. >> When you finally became aware of what he >> When you finally became aware of what he >> When you finally became aware of what he did, did you say, "I want to be like my did, did you say, "I want to be like my did, did you say, "I want to be like my dad when I grow up. I'm going to follow dad when I grow up. I'm going to follow dad when I grow up. I'm going to follow his path or were you more like Michael his path or were you more like Michael his path or were you more like Michael Corleó who was pursuing a different path Corleó who was pursuing a different path Corleó who was pursuing a different path uh you know because his father veto uh you know because his father veto uh you know because his father veto didn't want him in the family business didn't want him in the family business didn't want him in the family business so to speak so to speak so to speak >> pretty much the same. My dad didn't want >> pretty much the same. My dad didn't want >> pretty much the same. My dad didn't want me in that he wanted me to go to school me in that he wanted me to go to school me in that he wanted me to go to school and be a doctor. and be a doctor. and be a doctor. >> Oh a doctor. >> Oh a doctor. >> Oh a doctor. >> Yeah. He said you know you're going to >> Yeah. He said you know you're going to >> Yeah. He said you know you're going to be the first professional in the family. be the first professional in the family. be the first professional in the family. He thought I had it in me. You know I He thought I had it in me. You know I He thought I had it in me. You know I was a pretty good student. Um, so I was a pretty good student. Um, so I was a pretty good student. Um, so I never had any interest in following in never had any interest in following in never had any interest in following in his footsteps in the life, but I did his footsteps in the life, but I did his footsteps in the life, but I did want to be like him because I really want to be like him because I really want to be like him because I really admired him, you know. admired him, you know. admired him, you know. >> Uh, but if you would have said to me at >> Uh, but if you would have said to me at >> Uh, but if you would have said to me at that age, what did I want to be? I that age, what did I want to be? I that age, what did I want to be? I wanted to play center field for the New wanted to play center field for the New wanted to play center field for the New York Yankees. Like Mickey Mana was my York Yankees. Like Mickey Mana was my York Yankees. Like Mickey Mana was my idol back then. idol back then. idol back then. >> Um, so no, I I had no interest in that. >> Um, so no, I I had no interest in that. >> Um, so no, I I had no interest in that. But I did want to follow my dad's But I did want to follow my dad's But I did want to follow my dad's presence. presence. presence. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> If you know what I mean. >> If you know what I mean. >> If you know what I mean. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> Yeah. [snorts] >> Yeah. [snorts] Now you you felt yourself pulled into Now you you felt yourself pulled into Now you you felt yourself pulled into this life as you call it, right? Explain this life as you call it, right? Explain this life as you call it, right? Explain what you call this life and Lacosa what you call this life and Lacosa what you call this life and Lacosa Nostra and all of that.

Nostra and all of that. Nostra and all of that. >> Well, you know, Coinostra Mafia, it's a >> Well, you know, Coinostra Mafia, it's a >> Well, you know, Coinostra Mafia, it's a very real criminal organization. I'd very real criminal organization. I'd very real criminal organization. I'd have to say that. And uh very big have to say that. And uh very big have to say that. And uh very big presence in New York. There are actually presence in New York. There are actually presence in New York. There are actually five distinct Yeah. Kosinorstra families five distinct Yeah. Kosinorstra families five distinct Yeah. Kosinorstra families in New York. Nine throughout the in New York. Nine throughout the in New York. Nine throughout the country, but five in New York. Uh New country, but five in New York. Uh New country, but five in New York. Uh New York is really the stronghold of that York is really the stronghold of that York is really the stronghold of that life. life. life. >> They still like as they did. They do, >> They still like as they did. They do, >> They still like as they did. They do, but not not the same. Not the same. but not not the same. Not the same. but not not the same. Not the same. >> So, five families. >> So, five families. >> So, five families. >> Five families. And you know, my my >> Five families. And you know, my my >> Five families. And you know, my my childhood was very turbulent because my childhood was very turbulent because my childhood was very turbulent because my dad kept getting arrested, indicted, dad kept getting arrested, indicted, dad kept getting arrested, indicted, going to jail, going to trial. So, I going to jail, going to trial. So, I going to jail, going to trial. So, I witnessed that my whole young life. And witnessed that my whole young life. And witnessed that my whole young life. And um so I knew what the life was about. um so I knew what the life was about. um so I knew what the life was about. Obviously, my dad was a very Obviously, my dad was a very Obviously, my dad was a very high-profile figure, always in front of high-profile figure, always in front of high-profile figure, always in front of the media, you know, they were always the media, you know, they were always the media, you know, they were always writing about him. So, it was hard not writing about him. So, it was hard not writing about him. So, it was hard not to to know about him. As far as the to to know about him. As far as the to to know about him. As far as the baseball games, you know, I said, uh, he baseball games, you know, I said, uh, he baseball games, you know, I said, uh, he would never miss a game no matter what would never miss a game no matter what would never miss a game no matter what he was doing. He'd always pull up in a he was doing. He'd always pull up in a he was doing. He'd always pull up in a big black Cadillac or a black. Remember big black Cadillac or a black. Remember big black Cadillac or a black. Remember those 1960 Cadillacs? Greg, they were those 1960 Cadillacs? Greg, they were those 1960 Cadillacs? Greg, they were huge, right? huge, right? huge, right? >> So, he'd pull right up to the field, get >> So, he'd pull right up to the field, get >> So, he'd pull right up to the field, get out of the car, he'd have five or six out of the car, he'd have five or six out of the car, he'd have five or six guys with him. I'd be up to bat. The guys with him. I'd be up to bat. The guys with him. I'd be up to bat. The umpire would never call strike three on umpire would never call strike three on umpire would never call strike three on me when he seen my father walking up me when he seen my father walking up me when he seen my father walking up into the stands. So, he was very uh into the stands. So, he was very uh into the stands. So, he was very uh supportive in that way, you know, but I supportive in that way, you know, but I supportive in that way, you know, but I knew everything that was going on. And knew everything that was going on. And knew everything that was going on. And so I was visiting him in jail and going so I was visiting him in jail and going so I was visiting him in jail and going to the trials and and all that stuff.

to the trials and and all that stuff. to the trials and and all that stuff. But what happened is he went to trial But what happened is he went to trial But what happened is he went to trial three times. Very serious crimes. Grand three times. Very serious crimes. Grand three times. Very serious crimes. Grand lararseny twice, murder once, but he was lararseny twice, murder once, but he was lararseny twice, murder once, but he was acquitted in all of them. But then in ' acquitted in all of them. But then in ' acquitted in all of them. But then in ' 66, they indicted him in federal court 66, they indicted him in federal court 66, they indicted him in federal court for masterminding a nationwide string of for masterminding a nationwide string of for masterminding a nationwide string of bank robberies. He gets convicted, gets bank robberies. He gets convicted, gets bank robberies. He gets convicted, gets sentenced to 50 years in prison. Wow. sentenced to 50 years in prison. Wow. sentenced to 50 years in prison. Wow. >> And goes off to jail in uh prison, I >> And goes off to jail in uh prison, I >> And goes off to jail in uh prison, I should say, in 1970. And that's when I should say, in 1970. And that's when I should say, in 1970. And that's when I was a premed student at Hofster was a premed student at Hofster was a premed student at Hofster University in New York. And um Joe University in New York. And um Joe University in New York. And um Joe Columbo was a boss of my family then and Columbo was a boss of my family then and Columbo was a boss of my family then and I knew him well. He kind of took me I knew him well. He kind of took me I knew him well. He kind of took me under his wing. He became another mentor under his wing. He became another mentor under his wing. He became another mentor of mine. And then um I I met a lot of my of mine. And then um I I met a lot of my of mine. And then um I I met a lot of my dad's friends saying, you know, Mike, if dad's friends saying, you know, Mike, if dad's friends saying, you know, Mike, if you don't help your father out, he's you don't help your father out, he's you don't help your father out, he's going to die in prison because Greg, going to die in prison because Greg, going to die in prison because Greg, that particular crime that my dad uh did that particular crime that my dad uh did that particular crime that my dad uh did 40 years on, he actually did 40. He was 40 years on, he actually did 40. He was 40 years on, he actually did 40. He was innocent of my dad was not a bank innocent of my dad was not a bank innocent of my dad was not a bank robber. And I I'll take that to my robber. And I I'll take that to my robber. And I I'll take that to my grave. Investigated the case, the whole grave. Investigated the case, the whole grave. Investigated the case, the whole thing. So I went to visit him in thing. So I went to visit him in thing. So I went to visit him in Levvenworth and I said, "Uh, if I don't Levvenworth and I said, "Uh, if I don't Levvenworth and I said, "Uh, if I don't help you out, you're going to die in help you out, you're going to die in help you out, you're going to die in here. I'm not going to go to school here. I'm not going to go to school here. I'm not going to go to school anymore." And we we kind of argued. He anymore." And we we kind of argued. He anymore." And we we kind of argued. He wasn't he wasn't for it. But then he wasn't he wasn't for it. But then he wasn't he wasn't for it. But then he kind of threw his hands up. You know, I kind of threw his hands up. You know, I kind of threw his hands up. You know, I was a pretty headstrong kid. And he was a pretty headstrong kid. And he was a pretty headstrong kid. And he said, "If you're going to be on the said, "If you're going to be on the said, "If you're going to be on the street, I want you on the street the street, I want you on the street the street, I want you on the street the right way." In his mind, the right way right way." In his mind, the right way right way." In his mind, the right way was to become a member of his life. So was to become a member of his life. So was to become a member of his life. So at that time, he proposed me for at that time, he proposed me for at that time, he proposed me for membership because, you know, you can't membership because, you know, you can't membership because, you know, you can't just go up to somebody and and say, just go up to somebody and and say, just go up to somebody and and say, "Hey, I'd like to join." You know, uh, "Hey, I'd like to join." You know, uh, "Hey, I'd like to join." You know, uh, somebody has to propose you and vouch somebody has to propose you and vouch somebody has to propose you and vouch for you. In my case, it was my dad. And for you. In my case, it was my dad. And for you. In my case, it was my dad. And and there's a lot of nepotism in that and there's a lot of nepotism in that and there's a lot of nepotism in that life. A lot of fathers bring their sons life. A lot of fathers bring their sons life. A lot of fathers bring their sons or their relatives in basically for or their relatives in basically for or their relatives in basically for security reasons to figure you're going security reasons to figure you're going security reasons to figure you're going to stand up. You're not going to cause

to stand up. You're not going to cause to stand up. You're not going to cause trouble. So that's how it started for trouble. So that's how it started for trouble. So that's how it started for me. I was 21. me. I was 21. me. I was 21. >> So you're following in your father >> So you're following in your father >> So you're following in your father father's footsteps. You're going to father's footsteps. You're going to father's footsteps. You're going to become a made man. So what is the become a made man. So what is the become a made man. So what is the process of of having that happen to you? process of of having that happen to you? process of of having that happen to you? Uh and and I remember you told me a Uh and and I remember you told me a Uh and and I remember you told me a story about what when you were story about what when you were story about what when you were initiated. initiated. initiated. >> Tell me what happens when you become a >> Tell me what happens when you become a >> Tell me what happens when you become a part of the mob. part of the mob. part of the mob. >> Well, after a kind of a recruit period >> Well, after a kind of a recruit period >> Well, after a kind of a recruit period where you have to prove yourself worthy where you have to prove yourself worthy where you have to prove yourself worthy to them. to them. to them. >> Um and if that happens, then uh there's >> Um and if that happens, then uh there's >> Um and if that happens, then uh there's an initiation. You take an oath. an initiation. You take an oath. an initiation. You take an oath. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And mine happened on Halloween night >> And mine happened on Halloween night >> And mine happened on Halloween night 1975. 1975. 1975. >> And there was an expression before the >> And there was an expression before the >> And there was an expression before the 70s that the books were closed. They 70s that the books were closed. They 70s that the books were closed. They weren't making any new guys for security weren't making any new guys for security weren't making any new guys for security reasons. In the 70s, they opened the reasons. In the 70s, they opened the reasons. In the 70s, they opened the books and they were starting to bring books and they were starting to bring books and they were starting to bring guys in. So, I was one of the first that guys in. So, I was one of the first that guys in. So, I was one of the first that came in and they did that really out of came in and they did that really out of came in and they did that really out of respect for my dad because he needed me respect for my dad because he needed me respect for my dad because he needed me and he wanted me involved. So, um it was and he wanted me involved. So, um it was and he wanted me involved. So, um it was Halloween night. Um we walked into a Halloween night. Um we walked into a Halloween night. Um we walked into a room individually room individually room individually uh the six of us. The boss was seated at uh the six of us. The boss was seated at uh the six of us. The boss was seated at like the head of a horseshoe like the head of a horseshoe like the head of a horseshoe configuration, the under boss and the configuration, the under boss and the configuration, the under boss and the consiliary, another uh you know consiliary, another uh you know consiliary, another uh you know high-profile position. uh were to his high-profile position. uh were to his high-profile position. uh were to his left and right and then all the cop left and right and then all the cop left and right and then all the cop James or captains were alongside of James or captains were alongside of James or captains were alongside of them. We had about 15 in our family at them. We had about 15 in our family at them. We had about 15 in our family at that point. Walked down the aisle, stood that point. Walked down the aisle, stood that point. Walked down the aisle, stood in front of the boss, held out my hand, in front of the boss, held out my hand, in front of the boss, held out my hand, he took a knife, cut my finger, some he took a knife, cut my finger, some he took a knife, cut my finger, some blood dropped on the floor. Uh I cuped blood dropped on the floor. Uh I cuped blood dropped on the floor. Uh I cuped my hands, he took a picture of a saint, my hands, he took a picture of a saint, my hands, he took a picture of a saint, Catholic alter, put it on my hands, lit Catholic alter, put it on my hands, lit Catholic alter, put it on my hands, lit it a flame, it didn't hurt, burned it a flame, it didn't hurt, burned it a flame, it didn't hurt, burned quickly. It was merely symbolic. And he

quickly. It was merely symbolic. And he quickly. It was merely symbolic. And he said, "Uh, tonight, Michael Francis, you said, "Uh, tonight, Michael Francis, you said, "Uh, tonight, Michael Francis, you are born again into a new life into are born again into a new life into are born again into a new life into violate what you know about this life. violate what you know about this life. violate what you know about this life. betray your brothers, you will die and betray your brothers, you will die and betray your brothers, you will die and burn in hell like the saint is burning burn in hell like the saint is burning burn in hell like the saint is burning in your hands. Do you accept? Yes, I do. in your hands. Do you accept? Yes, I do. in your hands. Do you accept? Yes, I do. That's it. That's it. That's it. >> Yet, here you sit alive telling the >> Yet, here you sit alive telling the >> Yet, here you sit alive telling the story when there was a list made of the story when there was a list made of the story when there was a list made of the of the top u mafia bosses or mobsters of the top u mafia bosses or mobsters of the top u mafia bosses or mobsters and you were on that list and you were on that list and you were on that list >> and I think most of them are dead and >> and I think most of them are dead and >> and I think most of them are dead and yet here alive. Who was on that list and yet here alive. Who was on that list and yet here alive. Who was on that list and what was that about? what was that about? what was that about? >> Well, there was it was Fortune magazine >> Well, there was it was Fortune magazine >> Well, there was it was Fortune magazine wrote an article in ' 86. It was like wrote an article in ' 86. It was like wrote an article in ' 86. It was like half the magazine, a huge article and half the magazine, a huge article and half the magazine, a huge article and they featured six of the 50 of us on they featured six of the 50 of us on they featured six of the 50 of us on there. I was one of the six and uh they there. I was one of the six and uh they there. I was one of the six and uh they had a chart with the 50th according to had a chart with the 50th according to had a chart with the 50th according to rank wealth and power. And I was I was rank wealth and power. And I was I was rank wealth and power. And I was I was the youngest guy on the list. I was the youngest guy on the list. I was the youngest guy on the list. I was number 18. I was five behind Gotti at number 18. I was five behind Gotti at number 18. I was five behind Gotti at the time. He was number 13. He hadn't the time. He was number 13. He hadn't the time. He was number 13. He hadn't been made boss yet. And um I always say been made boss yet. And um I always say been made boss yet. And um I always say it was a silly list. They didn't ask for it was a silly list. They didn't ask for it was a silly list. They didn't ask for our tax returns. I don't know how that our tax returns. I don't know how that our tax returns. I don't know how that it sold a lot of magazines. But what's it sold a lot of magazines. But what's it sold a lot of magazines. But what's not silly about the list, Greg, is that not silly about the list, Greg, is that not silly about the list, Greg, is that out of the list of 50 today, 48 of them out of the list of 50 today, 48 of them out of the list of 50 today, 48 of them are dead. Number 49 is doing life in are dead. Number 49 is doing life in are dead. Number 49 is doing life in prison, and I'm the only one alive and prison, and I'm the only one alive and prison, and I'm the only one alive and free.

free. free. >> How is it that you you did serve 10 >> How is it that you you did serve 10 >> How is it that you you did serve 10 years, right? I years, right? I years, right? I >> I got a 10-year sentence. I served eight >> I got a 10-year sentence. I served eight >> I got a 10-year sentence. I served eight out of the 10, which is the maximum. out of the 10, which is the maximum. out of the 10, which is the maximum. >> How is it that you are sitting here >> How is it that you are sitting here >> How is it that you are sitting here living to tell the story and didn't living to tell the story and didn't living to tell the story and didn't serve maybe a longer sentence or that serve maybe a longer sentence or that serve maybe a longer sentence or that you were not targeted? Well, you know, I you were not targeted? Well, you know, I you were not targeted? Well, you know, I was targeted for a while because when I was targeted for a while because when I was targeted for a while because when I walked away, you can't do that. And a walked away, you can't do that. And a walked away, you can't do that. And a lot of people thought that, you know, lot of people thought that, you know, lot of people thought that, you know, normally when guys walk away, they normally when guys walk away, they normally when guys walk away, they become informants and they start become informants and they start become informants and they start testifying against people and that's testifying against people and that's testifying against people and that's what happens. what happens. what happens. >> But you never did that. >> But you never did that. >> But you never did that. >> No, I didn't want to do that. I wasn't I >> No, I didn't want to do that. I wasn't I >> No, I didn't want to do that. I wasn't I wasn't looking to hurt anybody. You wasn't looking to hurt anybody. You wasn't looking to hurt anybody. You know, Greg, it was it was a crazy thing know, Greg, it was it was a crazy thing know, Greg, it was it was a crazy thing with me that some people don't with me that some people don't with me that some people don't understand. understand. understand. >> It's a treacherous life. There's no >> It's a treacherous life. There's no >> It's a treacherous life. There's no question. There's backstabbing and this question. There's backstabbing and this question. There's backstabbing and this and that, but it's like anything else. and that, but it's like anything else. and that, but it's like anything else. It's a little more intense the It's a little more intense the It's a little more intense the consequences on the street. So when I consequences on the street. So when I consequences on the street. So when I left life, I wasn't mad at anybody. I left life, I wasn't mad at anybody. I left life, I wasn't mad at anybody. I didn't want to get even with anybody. I didn't want to get even with anybody. I didn't want to get even with anybody. I didn't want to hurt anybody. And I would didn't want to hurt anybody. And I would didn't want to hurt anybody. And I would never put my father in a position where never put my father in a position where never put my father in a position where his son was doing bad things to others his son was doing bad things to others his son was doing bad things to others cuz he was still in the life. cuz he was still in the life. cuz he was still in the life. >> But people didn't understand that. But I >> But people didn't understand that. But I >> But people didn't understand that. But I kept sending messages back. I'm not kept sending messages back. I'm not kept sending messages back. I'm not going to hurt anybody. Don't worry about going to hurt anybody. Don't worry about going to hurt anybody. Don't worry about it. I just want out of life.

it. I just want out of life. it. I just want out of life. >> And they said, well, what do you want >> And they said, well, what do you want >> And they said, well, what do you want out of life? And I told my dad, I said, out of life? And I told my dad, I said, out of life? And I told my dad, I said, "Dad, every family of every member of "Dad, every family of every member of "Dad, every family of every member of this life that I know has been this life that I know has been this life that I know has been devastated." I said, "Look at our devastated." I said, "Look at our devastated." I said, "Look at our family. My mom, you know, 33 years family. My mom, you know, 33 years family. My mom, you know, 33 years without her husband. When she passed without her husband. When she passed without her husband. When she passed away, her relationship with my dad was away, her relationship with my dad was away, her relationship with my dad was ugly." ugly." ugly." >> That's how much time he spent >> That's how much time he spent >> That's how much time he spent incarcerating. incarcerating. incarcerating. >> He spent 40 years after 50. And I said, >> He spent 40 years after 50. And I said, >> He spent 40 years after 50. And I said, you know, and she blamed you for you know, and she blamed you for you know, and she blamed you for everything that went wrong. Now, what everything that went wrong. Now, what everything that went wrong. Now, what went wrong? My sister dies of an went wrong? My sister dies of an went wrong? My sister dies of an overdose of drugs. overdose of drugs. overdose of drugs. >> My my younger brother's a drug addict 25 >> My my younger brother's a drug addict 25 >> My my younger brother's a drug addict 25 years. I can't tell you how hard I had years. I can't tell you how hard I had years. I can't tell you how hard I had to work to keep him alive on the street. to work to keep him alive on the street. to work to keep him alive on the street. If it wasn't for me and my father, he If it wasn't for me and my father, he If it wasn't for me and my father, he would have been taken out. My other would have been taken out. My other would have been taken out. My other younger sister dies at the age of 40. younger sister dies at the age of 40. younger sister dies at the age of 40. She was never mentally stable. I says, She was never mentally stable. I says, She was never mentally stable. I says, "And every family is the same way. Every "And every family is the same way. Every "And every family is the same way. Every family." So, I just met this young girl. family." So, I just met this young girl. family." So, I just met this young girl. I'm in love with her. I'm going to marry I'm in love with her. I'm going to marry I'm in love with her. I'm going to marry her. Am I going to bring her into this? her. Am I going to bring her into this? her. Am I going to bring her into this? Number one, number one. Number two, I've Number one, number one. Number two, I've Number one, number one. Number two, I've been indicted seven times. I've been to been indicted seven times. I've been to been indicted seven times. I've been to trial five times. I've been arrested 18 trial five times. I've been arrested 18 trial five times. I've been arrested 18 times. I said, 'I got a huge target on times. I said, 'I got a huge target on times. I said, 'I got a huge target on my back. I'm never going to walk away my back. I'm never going to walk away my back. I'm never going to walk away from this life. One way or the other, from this life. One way or the other, from this life. One way or the other, I'm going to go down. I have to make a I'm going to go down. I have to make a I'm going to go down. I have to make a choice. And he kind of understood it, choice. And he kind of understood it, choice. And he kind of understood it, but he didn't go along with it cuz my but he didn't go along with it cuz my but he didn't go along with it cuz my dad was just too much a part of that dad was just too much a part of that dad was just too much a part of that life. He said, "You took an oath." I life. He said, "You took an oath." I life. He said, "You took an oath." I said, "I understand that, but I have a said, "I understand that, but I have a said, "I understand that, but I have a young girl that I'm in love with."

young girl that I'm in love with." young girl that I'm in love with." >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And um and at the same time, my wife >> And um and at the same time, my wife >> And um and at the same time, my wife introduced me to the Lord. introduced me to the Lord. introduced me to the Lord. >> Yes. And so I've got this whole, you >> Yes. And so I've got this whole, you >> Yes. And so I've got this whole, you know, it was very very difficult to make know, it was very very difficult to make know, it was very very difficult to make the decision to walk away because I felt the decision to walk away because I felt the decision to walk away because I felt like I was betraying my people, my like I was betraying my people, my like I was betraying my people, my friends, my oath. friends, my oath. friends, my oath. >> But didn't your father in effect betray >> But didn't your father in effect betray >> But didn't your father in effect betray you? you? you? >> He did because when I walked away, well, >> He did because when I walked away, well, >> He did because when I walked away, well, he I I'll tell you what really happened. he I I'll tell you what really happened. he I I'll tell you what really happened. I think this is important for people to I think this is important for people to I think this is important for people to understand because I think my whole life understand because I think my whole life understand because I think my whole life story is uh it it it goes in three story is uh it it it goes in three story is uh it it it goes in three phases. Number one, my adoration for my phases. Number one, my adoration for my phases. Number one, my adoration for my father. Really wanted to be the best father. Really wanted to be the best father. Really wanted to be the best possible person I could be for him, possible person I could be for him, possible person I could be for him, whatever it might have been. When I got whatever it might have been. When I got whatever it might have been. When I got into the life, I I wanted to make him into the life, I I wanted to make him into the life, I I wanted to make him proud. And then it was my heavenly proud. And then it was my heavenly proud. And then it was my heavenly father at some point. And of course, my father at some point. And of course, my father at some point. And of course, my wife. These were the three most dynamic wife. These were the three most dynamic wife. These were the three most dynamic people in my life. But one of the people in my life. But one of the people in my life. But one of the horrors of that life is that you make a horrors of that life is that you make a horrors of that life is that you make a mistake, your best friend walks you into mistake, your best friend walks you into mistake, your best friend walks you into a room, and you don't walk out again. a room, and you don't walk out again. a room, and you don't walk out again. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> In my 20 years in that life, obviously I >> In my 20 years in that life, obviously I >> In my 20 years in that life, obviously I know people that went through that. So know people that went through that. So know people that went through that. So when I was on the street, I was making a when I was on the street, I was making a when I was on the street, I was making a lot of money, Greg, and I was a captain lot of money, Greg, and I was a captain lot of money, Greg, and I was a captain in the family. They had elevated my in the family. They had elevated my in the family. They had elevated my position. And you know, I was one of the position. And you know, I was one of the position. And you know, I was one of the younger guys. So you know how it is in younger guys. So you know how it is in younger guys. So you know how it is in life. You're a younger guy, you're doing life. You're a younger guy, you're doing life. You're a younger guy, you're doing well. You got the older guys that well. You got the older guys that well. You got the older guys that there's some resentment there. And you there's some resentment there. And you there's some resentment there. And you got to watch, you got to know how to got to watch, you got to know how to got to watch, you got to know how to navigate that life. It's very very navigate that life. It's very very navigate that life. It's very very difficult at times. So you got to you difficult at times. So you got to you difficult at times. So you got to you got to know how to deal with people. And got to know how to deal with people. And got to know how to deal with people. And so there was a lot of talk on the street so there was a lot of talk on the street so there was a lot of talk on the street about me. And there was an article that about me. And there was an article that about me. And there was an article that came out in the Long Island paper that came out in the Long Island paper that came out in the Long Island paper that said I was becoming powerful enough to

said I was becoming powerful enough to said I was becoming powerful enough to break away from the Columbos and start break away from the Columbos and start break away from the Columbos and start my own family. my own family. my own family. >> No tr it was like a fictional story. It >> No tr it was like a fictional story. It >> No tr it was like a fictional story. It was no truth. I never even indicated was no truth. I never even indicated was no truth. I never even indicated that. Never even a thought. that. Never even a thought. that. Never even a thought. >> But it started to get in people's heads. >> But it started to get in people's heads. >> But it started to get in people's heads. >> So my dad happened to be on parole >> So my dad happened to be on parole >> So my dad happened to be on parole during that 40 years. He was he was uh during that 40 years. He was he was uh during that 40 years. He was he was uh he was on parole a few times. Kept going he was on parole a few times. Kept going he was on parole a few times. Kept going back. Total of 40 years. Silly. [snorts] back. Total of 40 years. Silly. [snorts] back. Total of 40 years. Silly. [snorts] So he called me up and he said uh I I So he called me up and he said uh I I So he called me up and he said uh I I got to see you. So I go to his house and got to see you. So I go to his house and got to see you. So I go to his house and he says, "The boss wants to see us he says, "The boss wants to see us he says, "The boss wants to see us tonight." I said, "Okay, what time you tonight." I said, "Okay, what time you tonight." I said, "Okay, what time you want me to pick you up?" Because I drove want me to pick you up?" Because I drove want me to pick you up?" Because I drove him everywhere to try to protect him. I him everywhere to try to protect him. I him everywhere to try to protect him. I didn't have a record at that point so he didn't have a record at that point so he didn't have a record at that point so he wouldn't meet with anybody cuz he kept wouldn't meet with anybody cuz he kept wouldn't meet with anybody cuz he kept getting violated for associating with getting violated for associating with getting violated for associating with other criminals. other criminals. other criminals. So he said, "They want to do this So he said, "They want to do this So he said, "They want to do this differently. They want me to come in differently. They want me to come in differently. They want me to come in first and they want you to come in first and they want you to come in first and they want you to come in second." I said, "Why?" I said, "Why are second." I said, "Why?" I said, "Why are second." I said, "Why?" I said, "Why are they going to separate us? You know this they going to separate us? You know this they going to separate us? You know this talk on the street? We argued about it." talk on the street? We argued about it." talk on the street? We argued about it." I said, "I'm not doing that. We're going I said, "I'm not doing that. We're going I said, "I'm not doing that. We're going together. We're not going to let them together. We're not going to let them together. We're not going to let them separate us. After about a half hour, I separate us. After about a half hour, I separate us. After about a half hour, I throw up my hands. I said, "Dad, I've throw up my hands. I said, "Dad, I've throw up my hands. I said, "Dad, I've been listening to you all my life. I been listening to you all my life. I been listening to you all my life. I don't like this, but if this is what you don't like this, but if this is what you don't like this, but if this is what you want, I'll do it." Make a very long want, I'll do it." Make a very long want, I'll do it." Make a very long story short, I drive into Brooklyn and I story short, I drive into Brooklyn and I story short, I drive into Brooklyn and I meet another captain in the family who I meet another captain in the family who I meet another captain in the family who I knew my whole life and I get in a car knew my whole life and I get in a car knew my whole life and I get in a car with him cuz we had to drive to meet the with him cuz we had to drive to meet the with him cuz we had to drive to meet the boss. It had to be a covert meeting cuz boss. It had to be a covert meeting cuz boss. It had to be a covert meeting cuz he was on parole. Everybody's on parole, he was on parole. Everybody's on parole, he was on parole. Everybody's on parole, right? So, we couldn't bring the law right? So, we couldn't bring the law right? So, we couldn't bring the law enforcement there.

enforcement there. enforcement there. >> So, we're driving around. But when I get >> So, we're driving around. But when I get >> So, we're driving around. But when I get in the car, I notice there's somebody in the car, I notice there's somebody in the car, I notice there's somebody sitting in the back seat sitting in the back seat sitting in the back seat >> who wasn't a maid guy who I had met >> who wasn't a maid guy who I had met >> who wasn't a maid guy who I had met maybe once or twice. And I'm saying, maybe once or twice. And I'm saying, maybe once or twice. And I'm saying, "Why is he here?" "Why is he here?" "Why is he here?" And um as we're driving to the house, my And um as we're driving to the house, my And um as we're driving to the house, my good friend doesn't tell me what the good friend doesn't tell me what the good friend doesn't tell me what the meeting is about. And I don't want to meeting is about. And I don't want to meeting is about. And I don't want to look like I'm scared, so I don't ask look like I'm scared, so I don't ask look like I'm scared, so I don't ask him. Right. [snorts] him. Right. [snorts] him. Right. [snorts] When we parked the car, it was a summer When we parked the car, it was a summer When we parked the car, it was a summer day in August and we had to go to a day in August and we had to go to a day in August and we had to go to a basement apartment in a house, single basement apartment in a house, single basement apartment in a house, single family house, and it was about a 30-yard family house, and it was about a 30-yard family house, and it was about a 30-yard walk from the car to the basement down walk from the car to the basement down walk from the car to the basement down the steps. And Greg, I was scared the steps. And Greg, I was scared the steps. And Greg, I was scared because I got out of the car and I because I got out of the car and I because I got out of the car and I started walking. I heard the two car started walking. I heard the two car started walking. I heard the two car doors slam. Now, I said, "Why is this doors slam. Now, I said, "Why is this doors slam. Now, I said, "Why is this kid, this young guy coming into this, kid, this young guy coming into this, kid, this young guy coming into this, you know, meeting? Something's wrong." you know, meeting? Something's wrong." you know, meeting? Something's wrong." And I'm saying I might get killed here. And I'm saying I might get killed here. And I'm saying I might get killed here. And I didn't want to show fear. People And I didn't want to show fear. People And I didn't want to show fear. People have said to me, why didn't you cut and have said to me, why didn't you cut and have said to me, why didn't you cut and run? And I said, 'Well, it wasn't run? And I said, 'Well, it wasn't run? And I said, 'Well, it wasn't heroic. It was really robotic. I was heroic. It was really robotic. I was heroic. It was really robotic. I was just so much a product of the life by just so much a product of the life by just so much a product of the life by that time. I said, hey, if this is it, that time. I said, hey, if this is it, that time. I said, hey, if this is it, this is it.

this is it. this is it. >> So, I'm walking down those steps and >> So, I'm walking down those steps and >> So, I'm walking down those steps and when the door opens, I knew that that when the door opens, I knew that that when the door opens, I knew that that could have been the last thing I saw. I could have been the last thing I saw. I could have been the last thing I saw. I almost I probably almost fainted. I almost I probably almost fainted. I almost I probably almost fainted. I don't remember. But anyway, long story don't remember. But anyway, long story don't remember. But anyway, long story short, I'm here, right? So, that didn't short, I'm here, right? So, that didn't short, I'm here, right? So, that didn't happen. But we had a real argument over happen. But we had a real argument over happen. But we had a real argument over the gas business. What they wrote in the gas business. What they wrote in the gas business. What they wrote in that uh article was that I was bringing that uh article was that I was bringing that uh article was that I was bringing down $2 billion a year. down $2 billion a year. down $2 billion a year. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And which was crazy. >> And which was crazy. >> And which was crazy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I was telling the boss, I said, you >> And I was telling the boss, I said, you >> And I was telling the boss, I said, you know, when they write about everybody know, when they write about everybody know, when they write about everybody else, it's a lie. When they're writing else, it's a lie. When they're writing else, it's a lie. When they're writing about me, it's true. I said, this is all about me, it's true. I said, this is all about me, it's true. I said, this is all nonsense. Anyway, it goes over fine. nonsense. Anyway, it goes over fine. nonsense. Anyway, it goes over fine. Okay. You know, we believe you. We're Okay. You know, we believe you. We're Okay. You know, we believe you. We're sorry. And let's have a drink cuz I sorry. And let's have a drink cuz I sorry. And let's have a drink cuz I don't want to drink. I want to go home. don't want to drink. I want to go home. don't want to drink. I want to go home. So, I told Jimmy, "Drive me back to my So, I told Jimmy, "Drive me back to my So, I told Jimmy, "Drive me back to my car." This is where it gets interesting. car." This is where it gets interesting. car." This is where it gets interesting. So, when we get in the car, I was really So, when we get in the car, I was really So, when we get in the car, I was really upset with him cuz he's my good friend upset with him cuz he's my good friend upset with him cuz he's my good friend and he didn't prepare me and it was and he didn't prepare me and it was and he didn't prepare me and it was trouble. And as I went to tell him trouble. And as I went to tell him trouble. And as I went to tell him something, he said, "Before you say something, he said, "Before you say something, he said, "Before you say anything, let me tell you this." I said, anything, let me tell you this." I said, anything, let me tell you this." I said, "What?" He said, "Michael, this was a "What?" He said, "Michael, this was a "What?" He said, "Michael, this was a real problem for you tonight. You you real problem for you tonight. You you real problem for you tonight. You you handled yourself well. It could have handled yourself well. It could have handled yourself well. It could have been a problem." When he said that, I been a problem." When he said that, I been a problem." When he said that, I got even more upset with him. I said, got even more upset with him. I said, got even more upset with him. I said, "You're my good friend. I know you my "You're my good friend. I know you my "You're my good friend. I know you my whole life, and you don't tell me." So, whole life, and you don't tell me." So, whole life, and you don't tell me." So, he looked at me. He was very smart, he looked at me. He was very smart, he looked at me. He was very smart, Greg. And he said, "If it was the other Greg. And he said, "If it was the other Greg. And he said, "If it was the other way around, would you have told me?" And way around, would you have told me?" And way around, would you have told me?" And I thought about it for a second. I'm I thought about it for a second. I'm I thought about it for a second. I'm being honest. I said, "No."

being honest. I said, "No." being honest. I said, "No." >> He said, "That's the life we lead." He >> He said, "That's the life we lead." He >> He said, "That's the life we lead." He said, "You know it better than any. You said, "You know it better than any. You said, "You know it better than any. You grew up in it." grew up in it." grew up in it." >> And then I'm thinking about that. And >> And then I'm thinking about that. And >> And then I'm thinking about that. And then as I go to get out of the car, we then as I go to get out of the car, we then as I go to get out of the car, we parked to go into my car. He grabs my parked to go into my car. He grabs my parked to go into my car. He grabs my arm and he says to me, "I'm going to arm and he says to me, "I'm going to arm and he says to me, "I'm going to tell you something. You're not going to tell you something. You're not going to tell you something. You're not going to want to hear this, but it is the truth. want to hear this, but it is the truth. want to hear this, but it is the truth. I am your friend." I said, "What?" He I am your friend." I said, "What?" He I am your friend." I said, "What?" He said, "Your father was in here before said, "Your father was in here before said, "Your father was in here before you tonight. He didn't help you one bit. you tonight. He didn't help you one bit. you tonight. He didn't help you one bit. he hurt you. he hurt you. he hurt you. And when he said that to me, it was And when he said that to me, it was And when he said that to me, it was like, what could my father have done? I like, what could my father have done? I like, what could my father have done? I was shocked. I didn't even answer him. was shocked. I didn't even answer him. was shocked. I didn't even answer him. But as I'm walking back to my car, But as I'm walking back to my car, But as I'm walking back to my car, knowing my father so well and knowing knowing my father so well and knowing knowing my father so well and knowing what his legacy in that life meant, I what his legacy in that life meant, I what his legacy in that life meant, I know what he did. And I verified this know what he did. And I verified this know what he did. And I verified this later. Hey, I don't do anything. My son later. Hey, I don't do anything. My son later. Hey, I don't do anything. My son handles everything. I'm on parole. If handles everything. I'm on parole. If handles everything. I'm on parole. If there's money missing or if he's got any there's money missing or if he's got any there's money missing or if he's got any ideas, I don't know anything about it. ideas, I don't know anything about it. ideas, I don't know anything about it. He kind of threw me under the bus, which He kind of threw me under the bus, which He kind of threw me under the bus, which is very dangerous. is very dangerous. is very dangerous. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I'll tell you what happened. Two >> But I'll tell you what happened. Two >> But I'll tell you what happened. Two things happened that night. This things happened that night. This things happened that night. This happened two years before I met Camille. happened two years before I met Camille. happened two years before I met Camille. I never said a word to my father in that I never said a word to my father in that I never said a word to my father in that life. You you don't say anything. You life. You you don't say anything. You life. You you don't say anything. You just keep quiet. Um but if that incident just keep quiet. Um but if that incident just keep quiet. Um but if that incident didn't happen, I don't think I would didn't happen, I don't think I would didn't happen, I don't think I would have ever walked away from the life have ever walked away from the life have ever walked away from the life because I couldn't have hurt my father.

because I couldn't have hurt my father. because I couldn't have hurt my father. So I believe So I believe So I believe >> in my faith now that the Lord showed me >> in my faith now that the Lord showed me >> in my faith now that the Lord showed me two things. Number one, he had to break two things. Number one, he had to break two things. Number one, he had to break that bond I had with my dad. that bond I had with my dad. that bond I had with my dad. >> And number two, he showed me that I >> And number two, he showed me that I >> And number two, he showed me that I could face death if I had to. So, I knew could face death if I had to. So, I knew could face death if I had to. So, I knew when I walked away that I was going to when I walked away that I was going to when I walked away that I was going to have trouble. Uh, but I was prepared for have trouble. Uh, but I was prepared for have trouble. Uh, but I was prepared for it. And I totally believe, Greg, after it. And I totally believe, Greg, after it. And I totally believe, Greg, after this 30 years now that I'm a Christian, this 30 years now that I'm a Christian, this 30 years now that I'm a Christian, that I've watched how God navigates that I've watched how God navigates that I've watched how God navigates things in in people's lives. And I things in in people's lives. And I things in in people's lives. And I believe that was the course he set for believe that was the course he set for believe that was the course he set for me me me >> and it was major. So, you travel around >> and it was major. So, you travel around >> and it was major. So, you travel around the world telling your story and there's the world telling your story and there's the world telling your story and there's young men today that you already alluded young men today that you already alluded young men today that you already alluded to that are drawn to a life of crime. to that are drawn to a life of crime. to that are drawn to a life of crime. It's kind of glamorized and certainly It's kind of glamorized and certainly It's kind of glamorized and certainly through these mob films, you know, can through these mob films, you know, can through these mob films, you know, can have a certain appeal, but those are have a certain appeal, but those are have a certain appeal, but those are movies. That's not real. The real life, movies. That's not real. The real life, movies. That's not real. The real life, you've lived it. What What would you say you've lived it. What What would you say you've lived it. What What would you say to a young man who's drawn to a criminal to a young man who's drawn to a criminal to a young man who's drawn to a criminal lifestyle? It might be a gang uh or some lifestyle? It might be a gang uh or some lifestyle? It might be a gang uh or some other way they would express that. Like other way they would express that. Like other way they would express that. Like what would your word be to them? Because what would your word be to them? Because what would your word be to them? Because you've literally been there and done you've literally been there and done you've literally been there and done that.

that. that. >> Yes. You know, I I drive two major >> Yes. You know, I I drive two major >> Yes. You know, I I drive two major points home to a lot of the young people points home to a lot of the young people points home to a lot of the young people that I'm with all the time. And it's two that I'm with all the time. And it's two that I'm with all the time. And it's two things. things. things. >> I say to them, remember this in this >> I say to them, remember this in this >> I say to them, remember this in this world. You are in this life who you hang world. You are in this life who you hang world. You are in this life who you hang out with. out with. out with. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> If you hang with the wrong crowd, you're >> If you hang with the wrong crowd, you're >> If you hang with the wrong crowd, you're going to be known to be the wrong type going to be known to be the wrong type going to be known to be the wrong type of person. Even if you think you're a of person. Even if you think you're a of person. Even if you think you're a good person, and they are going to good person, and they are going to good person, and they are going to influence you and they're going to bring influence you and they're going to bring influence you and they're going to bring you in the wrong direction. Who you hang you in the wrong direction. Who you hang you in the wrong direction. Who you hang out, who you surround yourself, very out, who you surround yourself, very out, who you surround yourself, very important. important. important. >> Secondly, I tell them who you are >> Secondly, I tell them who you are >> Secondly, I tell them who you are accountable to in life is going to accountable to in life is going to accountable to in life is going to direct the path that your life goes direct the path that your life goes direct the path that your life goes down. Mhm. down. Mhm. down. Mhm. >> I said, "When I was on the street, I was >> I said, "When I was on the street, I was >> I said, "When I was on the street, I was accountable to my boss, to my oath. I accountable to my boss, to my oath. I accountable to my boss, to my oath. I was a criminal. Now I'm accountable to was a criminal. Now I'm accountable to was a criminal. Now I'm accountable to my God first, to my wife, my children, my God first, to my wife, my children, my God first, to my wife, my children, people that rely on me, don't want me people that rely on me, don't want me people that rely on me, don't want me to, you know, disappoint them. So, my to, you know, disappoint them. So, my to, you know, disappoint them. So, my paths are a lot straighter." I said, paths are a lot straighter." I said, paths are a lot straighter." I said, "So, the criminal life, it's the wrong "So, the criminal life, it's the wrong "So, the criminal life, it's the wrong people to be around. You're going to go people to be around. You're going to go people to be around. You're going to go to jail. You're going to get hurt. to jail. You're going to get hurt. to jail. You're going to get hurt. You're going to something's going to go You're going to something's going to go You're going to something's going to go down and who you're accountable to." And down and who you're accountable to." And down and who you're accountable to." And I told them, "Accountability is very I told them, "Accountability is very I told them, "Accountability is very important. Even if you're a boss, you important. Even if you're a boss, you important. Even if you're a boss, you have to be accountable to somebody or have to be accountable to somebody or have to be accountable to somebody or something." And the message really something." And the message really something." And the message really resonates.

resonates. resonates. >> And I tell them, listen, >> And I tell them, listen, >> And I tell them, listen, >> I was part of the biggest gang in the >> I was part of the biggest gang in the >> I was part of the biggest gang in the world. world. world. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I walked away for a reason and I've >> And I walked away for a reason and I've >> And I walked away for a reason and I've been successful in doing that. And been successful in doing that. And been successful in doing that. And that's when I give them, you know, the that's when I give them, you know, the that's when I give them, you know, the faith message. faith message. faith message. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And it really resonates, Greg. You know, >> And it really resonates, Greg. You know, >> And it really resonates, Greg. You know, when you've God has blessed me because when you've God has blessed me because when you've God has blessed me because I've been there and done that and you I've been there and done that and you I've been there and done that and you have credibility and credibility is have credibility and credibility is have credibility and credibility is everything when you talk to these young everything when you talk to these young everything when you talk to these young >> otherwise they'll turn you right off. >> otherwise they'll turn you right off. >> otherwise they'll turn you right off. >> Yeah. So it's like the old adage, show >> Yeah. So it's like the old adage, show >> Yeah. So it's like the old adage, show me your friends, I'll show you your me your friends, I'll show you your me your friends, I'll show you your future. future. future. >> In Psalm 1, you know, blessed is the man >> In Psalm 1, you know, blessed is the man >> In Psalm 1, you know, blessed is the man that walks not on the counsel of the that walks not on the counsel of the that walks not on the counsel of the ungodly or stands in the way of sinners ungodly or stands in the way of sinners ungodly or stands in the way of sinners or sits in the seat of the scornful. or sits in the seat of the scornful. or sits in the seat of the scornful. Word blessed can be translated happy. Word blessed can be translated happy. Word blessed can be translated happy. Hey, you want to be a happy person, Hey, you want to be a happy person, Hey, you want to be a happy person, don't hang around ungodly people, people don't hang around ungodly people, people don't hang around ungodly people, people who mock God. But then it says in who mock God. But then it says in who mock God. But then it says in contrast, but his delight is in the word contrast, but his delight is in the word contrast, but his delight is in the word of the Lord and in it does he meditate of the Lord and in it does he meditate of the Lord and in it does he meditate day and night. And then it says, "And day and night. And then it says, "And day and night. And then it says, "And he'll be like a tree planted by the he'll be like a tree planted by the he'll be like a tree planted by the rivers of water that will bring forth rivers of water that will bring forth rivers of water that will bring forth fruit in his season. His leaves shall fruit in his season. His leaves shall fruit in his season. His leaves shall not wither and whatever he does shall not wither and whatever he does shall not wither and whatever he does shall prosper." You know, so God will bless prosper." You know, so God will bless prosper." You know, so God will bless you. Like you're talking about Proverbs.

you. Like you're talking about Proverbs. you. Like you're talking about Proverbs. Um trust in the Lord with all of your Um trust in the Lord with all of your Um trust in the Lord with all of your heart. Don't lean to your own heart. Don't lean to your own heart. Don't lean to your own understanding and all your ways understanding and all your ways understanding and all your ways acknowledge him. He'll direct your acknowledge him. He'll direct your acknowledge him. He'll direct your paths. God's plan is better than our paths. God's plan is better than our paths. God's plan is better than our plan for ourself. plan for ourself. plan for ourself. >> So you you know and I I'll say something >> So you you know and I I'll say something >> So you you know and I I'll say something about your dad too. Even though you had about your dad too. Even though you had about your dad too. Even though you had a rough relationship and your father, a rough relationship and your father, a rough relationship and your father, well, let's just say, wasn't the perfect well, let's just say, wasn't the perfect well, let's just say, wasn't the perfect role model. He was a very flawed man, role model. He was a very flawed man, role model. He was a very flawed man, but but you you loved him and he lived a but but you you loved him and he lived a but but you you loved him and he lived a very long life. In fact, at one point, very long life. In fact, at one point, very long life. In fact, at one point, wasn't he the longest serving prisoner wasn't he the longest serving prisoner wasn't he the longest serving prisoner in the system? in the system? in the system? >> He was released in 2017 at the age of >> He was released in 2017 at the age of >> He was released in 2017 at the age of 100. 100. 100. >> 100. >> 100. >> 100. >> He was the oldest uh inmate in the >> He was the oldest uh inmate in the >> He was the oldest uh inmate in the federal system at federal system at federal system at >> I know. I mean, because you tell me >> I know. I mean, because you tell me >> I know. I mean, because you tell me about him often and you would go and about him often and you would go and about him often and you would go and visit him in prison. What was Sunny's visit him in prison. What was Sunny's visit him in prison. What was Sunny's reaction to you being not only a reaction to you being not only a reaction to you being not only a Christian, but in effect a guy who's Christian, but in effect a guy who's Christian, but in effect a guy who's taking your story and and using it to taking your story and and using it to taking your story and and using it to bring others to faith. Did Did he like bring others to faith. Did Did he like bring others to faith. Did Did he like that? Did he not like that? that? Did he not like that? that? Did he not like that? >> I'm going to sum it up quick. You know, >> I'm going to sum it up quick. You know, >> I'm going to sum it up quick. You know, one of the guilts that I carry with me one of the guilts that I carry with me one of the guilts that I carry with me and it's it's it bothers me is that I and it's it's it bothers me is that I and it's it's it bothers me is that I don't think I ministered enough to my don't think I ministered enough to my don't think I ministered enough to my dad.

dad. dad. >> It was very hard, you know. Sure. >> It was very hard, you know. Sure. >> It was very hard, you know. Sure. >> It's always hard though with your >> It's always hard though with your >> It's always hard though with your parents, but it's hard. parents, but it's hard. parents, but it's hard. >> You had a very unusual situation, too. >> You had a very unusual situation, too. >> You had a very unusual situation, too. It was hard. It was hard. It was hard. >> But I had once spoken at a place, I >> But I had once spoken at a place, I >> But I had once spoken at a place, I think it was in uh Pennsylvania, and it think it was in uh Pennsylvania, and it think it was in uh Pennsylvania, and it was a big big gathering. Um and the was a big big gathering. Um and the was a big big gathering. Um and the chaplain was a woman there. And she chaplain was a woman there. And she chaplain was a woman there. And she said, I'm so moved by the story of you said, I'm so moved by the story of you said, I'm so moved by the story of you and your father. I want to go visit your and your father. I want to go visit your and your father. I want to go visit your dad. dad. dad. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And I said, great. If you can get in, do >> And I said, great. If you can get in, do >> And I said, great. If you can get in, do it. So, she was very aggressive. She it. So, she was very aggressive. She it. So, she was very aggressive. She gets in. She spends three hours with my gets in. She spends three hours with my gets in. She spends three hours with my dad. dad. dad. >> She told me two things. She said, "You >> She told me two things. She said, "You >> She told me two things. She said, "You know, when I walked in," cuz my father know, when I walked in," cuz my father know, when I walked in," cuz my father wasn't expecting her. When I walked in, wasn't expecting her. When I walked in, wasn't expecting her. When I walked in, um, she said, "I'm the chaplain." um, she said, "I'm the chaplain." um, she said, "I'm the chaplain." [clears throat] And he goes, "Oh, [clears throat] And he goes, "Oh, [clears throat] And he goes, "Oh, really? My son is a pastor." And now I'm really? My son is a pastor." And now I'm really? My son is a pastor." And now I'm not a pastor, but and I said, "Well, how not a pastor, but and I said, "Well, how not a pastor, but and I said, "Well, how did he say that?" He said, "She he was did he say that?" He said, "She he was did he say that?" He said, "She he was very proud of that." So that like, "Wow, very proud of that." So that like, "Wow, very proud of that." So that like, "Wow, I never realized that cuz he didn't I never realized that cuz he didn't I never realized that cuz he didn't really indicate that to me." And then really indicate that to me." And then really indicate that to me." And then she told me, she said, "Your dad and I she told me, she said, "Your dad and I she told me, she said, "Your dad and I read the Bible for three hours and he read the Bible for three hours and he read the Bible for three hours and he accepted Christ." accepted Christ." accepted Christ." >> Oh my goodness. Now, I didn't see much >> Oh my goodness. Now, I didn't see much >> Oh my goodness. Now, I didn't see much evidence of that afterwards, but but uh evidence of that afterwards, but but uh evidence of that afterwards, but but uh who am I to doubt that, you know, um so who am I to doubt that, you know, um so who am I to doubt that, you know, um so I felt really good about that and I had I felt really good about that and I had I felt really good about that and I had so many people praying for him and I so many people praying for him and I so many people praying for him and I believe in the power of prayer.

believe in the power of prayer. believe in the power of prayer. >> I would disagree with you. I think you >> I would disagree with you. I think you >> I would disagree with you. I think you are an excellent son and and I know how are an excellent son and and I know how are an excellent son and and I know how many times you went to visit him and I many times you went to visit him and I many times you went to visit him and I know it was hard for you but yet you know it was hard for you but yet you know it was hard for you but yet you swed that seed and prepared the ground swed that seed and prepared the ground swed that seed and prepared the ground and that lady uh you know shared the and that lady uh you know shared the and that lady uh you know shared the gospel and if Sunny Frances died gospel and if Sunny Frances died gospel and if Sunny Frances died believing in Jesus Christ as his savior believing in Jesus Christ as his savior believing in Jesus Christ as his savior and lord regardless of the sins that he and lord regardless of the sins that he and lord regardless of the sins that he committed he was forgiven just like the committed he was forgiven just like the committed he was forgiven just like the thief on the cross who and you know the thief on the cross who and you know the thief on the cross who and you know the thief was probably was a murderer thief was probably was a murderer thief was probably was a murderer because they didn't crucify thieves so because they didn't crucify thieves so because they didn't crucify thieves so He probably was an insurrection that was He probably was an insurrection that was He probably was an insurrection that was guilty of serious crimes for sure. And guilty of serious crimes for sure. And guilty of serious crimes for sure. And Jesus said, "Today you'll be with me in Jesus said, "Today you'll be with me in Jesus said, "Today you'll be with me in paradise." I think you're a great son to paradise." I think you're a great son to paradise." I think you're a great son to your father. Uh and you know, you had a your father. Uh and you know, you had a your father. Uh and you know, you had a very rough life, but um I love the way very rough life, but um I love the way very rough life, but um I love the way that you were able to go back and and that you were able to go back and and that you were able to go back and and you know, bring grace and forgiveness uh you know, bring grace and forgiveness uh you know, bring grace and forgiveness uh to to your dad and and I know you know to to your dad and and I know you know to to your dad and and I know you know with your family as well, you care about with your family as well, you care about with your family as well, you care about them a great deal. I'm talking about them a great deal. I'm talking about them a great deal. I'm talking about your siblings and such and the your siblings and such and the your siblings and such and the challenges you've had there. So, you challenges you've had there. So, you challenges you've had there. So, you know, I think you have one of the most know, I think you have one of the most know, I think you have one of the most remarkable stories I've ever heard. And remarkable stories I've ever heard. And remarkable stories I've ever heard. And to me, it's almost like the story of the to me, it's almost like the story of the to me, it's almost like the story of the Apostle Paul. I mean, Paul was a Apostle Paul. I mean, Paul was a Apostle Paul. I mean, Paul was a murderer. Uh Paul, you weren't a murderer. Uh Paul, you weren't a murderer. Uh Paul, you weren't a murderer, but Paul was. And and Paul was murderer, but Paul was. And and Paul was murderer, but Paul was. And and Paul was living a godless life, thinking he was living a godless life, thinking he was living a godless life, thinking he was living a godly life. And the last thing living a godly life. And the last thing living a godly life. And the last thing he planned on doing was becoming a he planned on doing was becoming a he planned on doing was becoming a believer. But God reached out and believer. But God reached out and believer. But God reached out and touched him. And it's interesting, he touched him. And it's interesting, he touched him. And it's interesting, he didn't do it through a person. and he didn't do it through a person. and he didn't do it through a person. and he did it supernaturally. Most of us come did it supernaturally. Most of us come did it supernaturally. Most of us come to faith when someone shares the gospel

to faith when someone shares the gospel to faith when someone shares the gospel with us. And in a way, a prison guard with us. And in a way, a prison guard with us. And in a way, a prison guard >> uh opened the door for you, but >> uh opened the door for you, but >> uh opened the door for you, but ultimately you got a personal encounter ultimately you got a personal encounter ultimately you got a personal encounter with Christ in a prison cell. The Lord with Christ in a prison cell. The Lord with Christ in a prison cell. The Lord just said, "You're going to be my son just said, "You're going to be my son just said, "You're going to be my son now." now." now." >> And and you could have said no, but of >> And and you could have said no, but of >> And and you could have said no, but of course you said yes. And it's just an course you said yes. And it's just an course you said yes. And it's just an amazing story. And I think your story amazing story. And I think your story amazing story. And I think your story says to anybody listening to us right says to anybody listening to us right says to anybody listening to us right now, no one is beyond the reach of God. now, no one is beyond the reach of God. now, no one is beyond the reach of God. I mean, if God can reach Michael I mean, if God can reach Michael I mean, if God can reach Michael Franies, if God can reach Sunny Fies, Franies, if God can reach Sunny Fies, Franies, if God can reach Sunny Fies, >> who can God not reach? I appreciate so >> who can God not reach? I appreciate so >> who can God not reach? I appreciate so much, you know, what Harvest has done much, you know, what Harvest has done much, you know, what Harvest has done for me and my family. Now, obviously, we for me and my family. Now, obviously, we for me and my family. Now, obviously, we go back, we go back a long time from a go back, we go back a long time from a go back, we go back a long time from a prison cell prison cell prison cell >> and just the support my whole family has >> and just the support my whole family has >> and just the support my whole family has gotten through some, you know, turbulent gotten through some, you know, turbulent gotten through some, you know, turbulent times that we've had. Um, and I always times that we've had. Um, and I always times that we've had. Um, and I always hold Harvest up as an example of what a hold Harvest up as an example of what a hold Harvest up as an example of what a church should be. So, I thank you for church should be. So, I thank you for church should be. So, I thank you for that. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming that. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming that. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. on. on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

>> Hi, I'm Greg Lori. I've got [music] some >> Hi, I'm Greg Lori. I've got [music] some good news for you. God loves you and God good news for you. God loves you and God good news for you. God loves you and God has a plan for your life. Here's [music] has a plan for your life. Here's [music] has a plan for your life. Here's [music] the problem. We're separated from God by the problem. We're separated from God by the problem. We're separated from God by our sin because we've all broken [music] our sin because we've all broken [music] our sin because we've all broken [music] his commandments. But the good news is his commandments. But the good news is his commandments. But the good news is is 2,000 years ago, God sent his son, is 2,000 years ago, God sent his son, is 2,000 years ago, God sent his son, Jesus [music] Christ, to die on the Jesus [music] Christ, to die on the Jesus [music] Christ, to die on the cross for your sin and then to rise cross for your sin and then to rise cross for your sin and then to rise again from the dead. The same Jesus again from the dead. The same Jesus again from the dead. The same Jesus [music] who died and rose is alive and [music] who died and rose is alive and [music] who died and rose is alive and ready to come into your life right now. ready to come into your life right now. ready to come into your life right now. Would you like your sin forgiven? Would Would you like your sin forgiven? Would Would you like your sin forgiven? Would you like to know that when you die, you you like to know that when you die, you you like to know that when you die, you [music] will go to heaven? If so, pray [music] will go to heaven? If so, pray [music] will go to heaven? If so, pray this simple prayer with me right now. this simple prayer with me right now. this simple prayer with me right now. Just say, "Lord Jesus, [music] I know Just say, "Lord Jesus, [music] I know Just say, "Lord Jesus, [music] I know I'm a sinner, but I believe you're the I'm a sinner, but I believe you're the I'm a sinner, but I believe you're the savior who died on the cross for my sin. savior who died on the cross for my sin. savior who died on the cross for my sin. I turn from my sin now, and I choose to I turn from my sin now, and I choose to I turn from my sin now, and I choose to follow you from this moment forward." follow you from this moment forward." follow you from this moment forward." Did you [music] just pray that prayer Did you [music] just pray that prayer Did you [music] just pray that prayer with me? If you did, God in heaven has with me? If you did, God in heaven has with me? If you did, God in heaven has heard you. And let me be the first to heard you. And let me be the first to heard you. And let me be the first to say to you, [music] congratulations and say to you, [music] congratulations and say to you, [music] congratulations and welcome to the family of God.