When Church Lets You Down | Ezekiel 34

>> Hey, I'm Chuck. >> Hey, I'm Chuck. >> I'm Jordan. >> I'm Jordan. >> I'm Jordan. >> I'm Danny. >> I'm Danny. >> I'm Danny. >> I'm Mish. >> I'm Mish. >> I'm Mish. >> And Ezekiel 34 is is sobering [music] >> And Ezekiel 34 is is sobering [music] >> And Ezekiel 34 is is sobering [music] to me when I read that. to me when I read that. to me when I read that. >> It's intense. >> It's intense. >> It's intense. >> It's sobering. Yeah, you know, like >> It's sobering. Yeah, you know, like >> It's sobering. Yeah, you know, like there are broken shepherds. there are broken shepherds. there are broken shepherds. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> I am a broken shepherd, you know, like >> I am a broken shepherd, you know, like >> I am a broken shepherd, you know, like I'm not perfect in the shepherding of my I'm not perfect in the shepherding of my I'm not perfect in the shepherding of my family and even in ministry, like I've family and even in ministry, like I've family and even in ministry, like I've hurt people, like there's a lot of stuff hurt people, like there's a lot of stuff hurt people, like there's a lot of stuff here that just is sobering. And yet the here that just is sobering. And yet the here that just is sobering. And yet the beauty of it is God is saying, you won't beauty of it is God is saying, you won't beauty of it is God is saying, you won't find a perfect shepherd. find a perfect shepherd. find a perfect shepherd. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Except for me and I will be that >> Except for me and I will be that >> Except for me and I will be that shepherd to you. So, shepherd to you. So, shepherd to you. So, um maybe start in kind of a honest um maybe start in kind of a honest um maybe start in kind of a honest place. Have you ever been hurt at the place. Have you ever been hurt at the place. Have you ever been hurt at the hands of a broken shepherd? And if so, hands of a broken shepherd? And if so, hands of a broken shepherd? And if so, how did you process that experience with how did you process that experience with how did you process that experience with God? God? God? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Probably a few times, but one the first Probably a few times, but one the first Probably a few times, but one the first one that comes to mind, I'm not going to one that comes to mind, I'm not going to one that comes to mind, I'm not going to name any names, but name any names, but name any names, but >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> um someone who did and said something >> um someone who did and said something >> um someone who did and said something very dumb. dumb. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Like he just shouldn't have said that, >> Like he just shouldn't have said that, >> Like he just shouldn't have said that, but he was a very just like but he was a very just like but he was a very just like wise man, had a spiritual depth to them wise man, had a spiritual depth to them wise man, had a spiritual depth to them and this knack for just teaching people and this knack for just teaching people and this knack for just teaching people in a way that would influence their in a way that would influence their in a way that would influence their um um um spiritual like introspection, their like spiritual like introspection, their like spiritual like introspection, their like ability to like look inwards and see how ability to like look inwards and see how ability to like look inwards and see how God is speaking to them.

God is speaking to them. God is speaking to them. And he did and he said something very, And he did and he said something very, And he did and he said something very, very dumb. very dumb. very dumb. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I remember wrestling with everything >> And I remember wrestling with everything >> And I remember wrestling with everything I learned from him. Is is I learned from him. Is is I learned from him. Is is does all that just go away? does all that just go away? does all that just go away? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I know the answer was like no, but I >> And I know the answer was like no, but I >> And I know the answer was like no, but I was still just carried a little bit of was still just carried a little bit of was still just carried a little bit of shame of just like believing, caring, shame of just like believing, caring, shame of just like believing, caring, listening to him. Um listening to him. Um listening to him. Um I think the reality here again is I think the reality here again is I think the reality here again is there's broken shepherds. there's broken shepherds. there's broken shepherds. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> No, thanks for sharing that. That's a >> No, thanks for sharing that. That's a >> No, thanks for sharing that. That's a very honest and real example. And I very honest and real example. And I very honest and real example. And I think you're right, that whole examining think you're right, that whole examining think you're right, that whole examining of like does that mean I have to throw of like does that mean I have to throw of like does that mean I have to throw everything that I learned from this everything that I learned from this everything that I learned from this person? And And I think you're right, person? And And I think you're right, person? And And I think you're right, the answer is no. The answer is no. Like the answer is no. The answer is no. Like the answer is no. The answer is no. Like God God God God only has broken shepherds to work God only has broken shepherds to work God only has broken shepherds to work with. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't with. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't with. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't long for and desire healing and, you long for and desire healing and, you long for and desire healing and, you know, certainly when I'm in that know, certainly when I'm in that know, certainly when I'm in that situation of being the broken shepherd, situation of being the broken shepherd, situation of being the broken shepherd, I need to repent and make repair and all I need to repent and make repair and all I need to repent and make repair and all of that is true. Um of that is true. Um of that is true. Um but it doesn't negate. but it doesn't negate. but it doesn't negate. >> Yeah, that's really good. I I I bet you >> Yeah, that's really good. I I I bet you >> Yeah, that's really good. I I I bet you there's probably somebody listening who there's probably somebody listening who there's probably somebody listening who has a similar experience. I think you has a similar experience. I think you has a similar experience. I think you spoke to that person. spoke to that person. spoke to that person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Some of my hardest moments in my life >> Some of my hardest moments in my life >> Some of my hardest moments in my life and some of the best, most healing and some of the best, most healing and some of the best, most healing moments in my life have both happened moments in my life have both happened moments in my life have both happened within the context of the church. within the context of the church. within the context of the church. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And I think back to a few really >> And I think back to a few really >> And I think back to a few really difficult moments where um again, not difficult moments where um again, not difficult moments where um again, not not naming names, but just like where not naming names, but just like where not naming names, but just like where church leadership that I looked up to church leadership that I looked up to church leadership that I looked up to greatly and trusted greatly greatly and trusted greatly greatly and trusted greatly um just made mistakes and I think like um just made mistakes and I think like um just made mistakes and I think like wielded the responsibility and the wielded the responsibility and the wielded the responsibility and the authority in really damaging and wild, authority in really damaging and wild, authority in really damaging and wild, chaotic, out of control ways. And I chaotic, out of control ways. And I chaotic, out of control ways. And I don't think that, you know, they were don't think that, you know, they were don't think that, you know, they were realizing realizing realizing how many people were caught in the how many people were caught in the how many people were caught in the shrapnel of those decisions and those shrapnel of those decisions and those shrapnel of those decisions and those explosive explosive explosive comments and um yeah yeah, decisions. comments and um yeah yeah, decisions. comments and um yeah yeah, decisions. And so I would say I I did not process a And so I would say I I did not process a And so I would say I I did not process a lot of those things well lot of those things well lot of those things well because it just messes with you when you because it just messes with you when you because it just messes with you when you look at people who are there to be look at people who are there to be look at people who are there to be spiritual guides spiritual guides spiritual guides and you're confused by and you're confused by and you're confused by their words and their actions and their their words and their actions and their their words and their actions and their beliefs and they feel like they're not beliefs and they feel like they're not beliefs and they feel like they're not working together. And so yeah, I think working together. And so yeah, I think working together. And so yeah, I think about times where I I really did not about times where I I really did not about times where I I really did not handle those things well and was very handle those things well and was very handle those things well and was very confused and um yeah, times where I confused and um yeah, times where I confused and um yeah, times where I didn't feel like I I quite had people to didn't feel like I I quite had people to didn't feel like I I quite had people to like like like ask about how to handle it, yeah, you ask about how to handle it, yeah, you ask about how to handle it, yeah, you know.

know. know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And and God's, you know, God's naming >> And and God's, you know, God's naming >> And and God's, you know, God's naming that his people have had that that his people have had that that his people have had that experience, right? They They've had experience, right? They They've had experience, right? They They've had shepherds that have done all those shepherds that have done all those shepherds that have done all those things, wielded power unfairly and and things, wielded power unfairly and and things, wielded power unfairly and and not been the kind of shepherds that he not been the kind of shepherds that he not been the kind of shepherds that he asked them to be. And God makes this asked them to be. And God makes this asked them to be. And God makes this promise. He says, I will myself be your promise. He says, I will myself be your promise. He says, I will myself be your shepherd. I think there's a gospel shepherd. I think there's a gospel shepherd. I think there's a gospel message in this for all of us, which is message in this for all of us, which is message in this for all of us, which is like, if we're looking ultimately to any like, if we're looking ultimately to any like, if we're looking ultimately to any human being to be our salvation, human being to be our salvation, human being to be our salvation, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> they are going to fail us. >> they are going to fail us. >> they are going to fail us. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Cuz they were never meant to nor are >> Cuz they were never meant to nor are >> Cuz they were never meant to nor are they equipped They need to be saved. they equipped They need to be saved. they equipped They need to be saved. They need a rescuer. They can't be the They need a rescuer. They can't be the They need a rescuer. They can't be the rescuer for us. Doesn't mean that God rescuer for us. Doesn't mean that God rescuer for us. Doesn't mean that God doesn't give us friends and community doesn't give us friends and community doesn't give us friends and community and people to support us, but but and people to support us, but but and people to support us, but but there's a gospel reality here that I there's a gospel reality here that I there's a gospel reality here that I think is so powerful, which is that think is so powerful, which is that think is so powerful, which is that ultimately ultimately ultimately ultimately ultimately ultimately God sent Jesus. He came himself God sent Jesus. He came himself God sent Jesus. He came himself to be the shepherd that we truly need, to be the shepherd that we truly need, to be the shepherd that we truly need, the shepherd that will hold our heart the shepherd that will hold our heart the shepherd that will hold our heart with integrity and never let us down, with integrity and never let us down, with integrity and never let us down, the shepherd who will be the perfect the shepherd who will be the perfect the shepherd who will be the perfect balance of grace and truth. Like that is balance of grace and truth. Like that is balance of grace and truth. Like that is the gospel reality that we're seeing the gospel reality that we're seeing the gospel reality that we're seeing even this Old Testament with what is a a even this Old Testament with what is a a even this Old Testament with what is a a challenge to his people, but also challenge to his people, but also challenge to his people, but also there's a promise there, right? So So there's a promise there, right? So So there's a promise there, right? So So how has How has Jesus fulfilled that how has How has Jesus fulfilled that how has How has Jesus fulfilled that longing for you? How has Jesus been the longing for you? How has Jesus been the longing for you? How has Jesus been the shepherd who doesn't let you down, the shepherd who doesn't let you down, the shepherd who doesn't let you down, the shepherd who isn't broken and therefore shepherd who isn't broken and therefore shepherd who isn't broken and therefore out of his wholeness is able to bring out of his wholeness is able to bring out of his wholeness is able to bring you to a place of wholeness?

you to a place of wholeness? you to a place of wholeness? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I think for me, one experience that I've >> I think for me, one experience that I've >> I think for me, one experience that I've had recently had recently had recently is I was on sabbatical and gently The is I was on sabbatical and gently The is I was on sabbatical and gently The Lord's good like that, gently, cuz he Lord's good like that, gently, cuz he Lord's good like that, gently, cuz he knows I'm stubborn and I probably knows I'm stubborn and I probably knows I'm stubborn and I probably wouldn't respond the same way. wouldn't respond the same way. wouldn't respond the same way. I just kind of heard this nudge or felt I just kind of heard this nudge or felt I just kind of heard this nudge or felt this nudge and I was journaling or this nudge and I was journaling or this nudge and I was journaling or whatever and whatever and whatever and God said, you stopped looking for me. God said, you stopped looking for me. God said, you stopped looking for me. And I was like, what? What do you mean? And I was like, what? What do you mean? And I was like, what? What do you mean? And he was like, you stopped looking for And he was like, you stopped looking for And he was like, you stopped looking for me outside of the things that you're me outside of the things that you're me outside of the things that you're doing. I'm actually doing a whole bunch doing. I'm actually doing a whole bunch doing. I'm actually doing a whole bunch of other things of other things of other things >> Wow. that I want you to be a part of, >> Wow. that I want you to be a part of, >> Wow. that I want you to be a part of, but you are only looking for me in your but you are only looking for me in your but you are only looking for me in your thing. Pick your head up. thing. Pick your head up. thing. Pick your head up. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Pick your head up and look for me. And I >> Pick your head up and look for me. And I >> Pick your head up and look for me. And I did. And then I ended up with a new job. did. And then I ended up with a new job. did. And then I ended up with a new job. So, careful. [laughter] Careful. But, yeah, it's just but it was Careful. But, yeah, it's just but it was gentle and it was like guiding and it gentle and it was like guiding and it gentle and it was like guiding and it was it wasn't like was it wasn't like was it wasn't like pull me out of one thing and put me in pull me out of one thing and put me in pull me out of one thing and put me in another and I'm confused and my head's another and I'm confused and my head's another and I'm confused and my head's spinning. It was this gentle guiding spinning. It was this gentle guiding spinning. It was this gentle guiding that was just that was just that was just beautiful and and beautiful and and beautiful and and >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> exactly what I needed. He might meet me >> exactly what I needed. He might meet me >> exactly what I needed. He might meet me exactly where I was. exactly where I was. exactly where I was. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You've said that in conversations >> You've said that in conversations >> You've said that in conversations before, Danny, and I think it's so before, Danny, and I think it's so before, Danny, and I think it's so important to emphasize that the voice of important to emphasize that the voice of important to emphasize that the voice of the Lord and his guidance is gentle. the Lord and his guidance is gentle. the Lord and his guidance is gentle. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It it's firm. It's clear. Like and he >> It it's firm. It's clear. Like and he >> It it's firm. It's clear. Like and he had he had a challenge for you, right? had he had a challenge for you, right? had he had a challenge for you, right? Pick your head up. It wasn't like, "Oh, Pick your head up. It wasn't like, "Oh, Pick your head up. It wasn't like, "Oh, you're fine. You're fine. Just be you. you're fine. You're fine. Just be you. you're fine. You're fine. Just be you. Do you." No, but it's gentle and you Do you." No, but it's gentle and you Do you." No, but it's gentle and you know, often times and I may have said know, often times and I may have said know, often times and I may have said this before in another context, but like this before in another context, but like this before in another context, but like there's always two voices in my head. there's always two voices in my head. there's always two voices in my head. At least two. At least two. At least two. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Maybe there's more than that. But, >> Maybe there's more than that. But, >> Maybe there's more than that. But, there's at least two and one is this there's at least two and one is this there's at least two and one is this critical, critical, critical, "Get your stuff together, Chuck. You are "Get your stuff together, Chuck. You are "Get your stuff together, Chuck. You are failing." And failing." And failing." And it may sound weird, but like it may sound weird, but like it may sound weird, but like I had to learn and recognize that's I had to learn and recognize that's I had to learn and recognize that's never the voice of God. never the voice of God. never the voice of God. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Cuz sometimes that can sound like >> Cuz sometimes that can sound like >> Cuz sometimes that can sound like the good religious thing to hear, right? the good religious thing to hear, right? the good religious thing to hear, right? And it's like, "No, God never comes with And it's like, "No, God never comes with And it's like, "No, God never comes with that accusation. that accusation. that accusation. Here's all the ways you're failing. Get Here's all the ways you're failing. Get Here's all the ways you're failing. Get yourself together." He will come, to yourself together." He will come, to yourself together." He will come, to your point, and say, "Hey, I have your point, and say, "Hey, I have your point, and say, "Hey, I have something different for you and it is something different for you and it is something different for you and it is better. And you're going to have to lift better. And you're going to have to lift better. And you're going to have to lift your head up to see it. But, always in a your head up to see it. But, always in a your head up to see it. But, always in a gentle voice. I you said that a couple gentle voice. I you said that a couple gentle voice. I you said that a couple times and I just think that's so times and I just think that's so times and I just think that's so important to to kind of emphasize so we important to to kind of emphasize so we important to to kind of emphasize so we understand understand understand what it sounds like to hear the voice of what it sounds like to hear the voice of what it sounds like to hear the voice of God and what it doesn't sound like to God and what it doesn't sound like to God and what it doesn't sound like to hear the voice of God.

hear the voice of God. hear the voice of God. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Thank you for just naming that. >> Thank you for just naming that. >> Thank you for just naming that. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Yeah. I feel like >> Yeah. I feel like >> Yeah. I feel like as I mentioned, my greatest wounding and as I mentioned, my greatest wounding and as I mentioned, my greatest wounding and healing has been within the the church. healing has been within the the church. healing has been within the the church. And so, where I can look at times where And so, where I can look at times where And so, where I can look at times where it's been really rough and difficult, I it's been really rough and difficult, I it's been really rough and difficult, I would say Jesus has spoken to me and would say Jesus has spoken to me and would say Jesus has spoken to me and really brought healing in my life really brought healing in my life really brought healing in my life through through through giving me experiences with leaders and giving me experiences with leaders and giving me experiences with leaders and with other people that are beautiful, with other people that are beautiful, with other people that are beautiful, amazing reflections of the type of amazing reflections of the type of amazing reflections of the type of leader and shepherd that Jesus is. Now, leader and shepherd that Jesus is. Now, leader and shepherd that Jesus is. Now, they're not perfect by any means, but I they're not perfect by any means, but I they're not perfect by any means, but I think in the bitterness and in the think in the bitterness and in the think in the bitterness and in the confusion of bad experiences with confusion of bad experiences with confusion of bad experiences with leaders or, you know, people, you can be leaders or, you know, people, you can be leaders or, you know, people, you can be tempted to just like ah, it's all bad. tempted to just like ah, it's all bad. tempted to just like ah, it's all bad. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And uh instead of running and trying to >> And uh instead of running and trying to >> And uh instead of running and trying to find the healing in like some other find the healing in like some other find the healing in like some other thing, it was just like no, just over thing, it was just like no, just over thing, it was just like no, just over time choosing to have confidence and time choosing to have confidence and time choosing to have confidence and trust to re-engage, like truly trust to re-engage, like truly trust to re-engage, like truly believing, like no, this is like back in believing, like no, this is like back in believing, like no, this is like back in community and back in relationship and community and back in relationship and community and back in relationship and back in um back in um back in um the the church is where I found uh the the church is where I found uh the the church is where I found uh great healing as well. So, it's like great healing as well. So, it's like great healing as well. So, it's like kind of both.

kind of both. kind of both. And uh yeah, it's that's a that's a cool And uh yeah, it's that's a that's a cool And uh yeah, it's that's a that's a cool thing. thing. thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. I've heard someone call it >> Yeah. Yeah. I've heard someone call it >> Yeah. Yeah. I've heard someone call it the beautifully broken bride of Christ. the beautifully broken bride of Christ. the beautifully broken bride of Christ. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know? And there are aspects that are >> You know? And there are aspects that are >> You know? And there are aspects that are broken cuz it's made up of broken broken cuz it's made up of broken broken cuz it's made up of broken people, but there are aspects that are people, but there are aspects that are people, but there are aspects that are so beautiful. And to your point, the so beautiful. And to your point, the so beautiful. And to your point, the deepest healing, the truest healing has deepest healing, the truest healing has deepest healing, the truest healing has also come at the hands of the body of also come at the hands of the body of also come at the hands of the body of Christ for Christ for Christ for >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I love that. I love that. >> I love that. I love that. >> I love that. I love that. Here's something. Here's something to Here's something. Here's something to Here's something. Here's something to think about. think about. think about. I do think you you said something that I do think you you said something that I do think you you said something that really resonates with me. When we are really resonates with me. When we are really resonates with me. When we are hurt hurt hurt in our own brokenness, it's easy to say, in our own brokenness, it's easy to say, in our own brokenness, it's easy to say, I'm done with not just this person, but I'm done with not just this person, but I'm done with not just this person, but I'm done with the church. I'm done with the church. I'm done with the church. And, you know, if you're listening to And, you know, if you're listening to And, you know, if you're listening to this, you probably aren't done with the this, you probably aren't done with the this, you probably aren't done with the church. Or maybe you are. Maybe you're church. Or maybe you are. Maybe you're church. Or maybe you are. Maybe you're on the outskirts and this is a way that on the outskirts and this is a way that on the outskirts and this is a way that you're staying spiritually connected, you're staying spiritually connected, you're staying spiritually connected, but you're not active in a relationship but you're not active in a relationship but you're not active in a relationship with a local church. And I just want to with a local church. And I just want to with a local church. And I just want to encourage you. Listen, encourage you. Listen, encourage you. Listen, no one's perfect. no one's perfect. no one's perfect. You're never going to have a perfect You're never going to have a perfect You're never going to have a perfect shepherd. shepherd. shepherd. There is power in allowing God to heal There is power in allowing God to heal There is power in allowing God to heal you deeply of a wound to the point that you deeply of a wound to the point that you deeply of a wound to the point that you could actually forgive the person you could actually forgive the person you could actually forgive the person who hurt you who hurt you who hurt you and once again open yourself up to and once again open yourself up to and once again open yourself up to community. And so maybe that's the step.

community. And so maybe that's the step. community. And so maybe that's the step. Maybe you're somewhere in that process. Maybe you're somewhere in that process. Maybe you're somewhere in that process. If you are, if that's pinging, I just If you are, if that's pinging, I just If you are, if that's pinging, I just want to tell you I do believe that is a want to tell you I do believe that is a want to tell you I do believe that is a gentle nudge from a good shepherd who gentle nudge from a good shepherd who gentle nudge from a good shepherd who loves you and wants you to be both loves you and wants you to be both loves you and wants you to be both blessed by the body of Christ, the blessed by the body of Christ, the blessed by the body of Christ, the church, but also wants you to be a church, but also wants you to be a church, but also wants you to be a blessing with the ways that he's wired blessing with the ways that he's wired blessing with the ways that he's wired you to the body of Christ and church.