Why We’re Desperate for Control | Romans 9

Pick a deep tragedy play. Mc Beth. Pick a deep tragedy play. Mc Beth. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Right. I'm guessing that if I walked >> Right. I'm guessing that if I walked >> Right. I'm guessing that if I walked into McBTH as a actor that was kind of into McBTH as a actor that was kind of into McBTH as a actor that was kind of subbing for another actor and I start subbing for another actor and I start subbing for another actor and I start like cracking jokes and trying to make like cracking jokes and trying to make like cracking jokes and trying to make people laugh, pretty soon the audience people laugh, pretty soon the audience people laugh, pretty soon the audience is going to say he he doesn't know what is going to say he he doesn't know what is going to say he he doesn't know what play he's in. play he's in. play he's in. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Right. And I think sometimes to your >> Right. And I think sometimes to your >> Right. And I think sometimes to your point when I respond to suffering the point when I respond to suffering the point when I respond to suffering the way I do, it's almost like I don't I I way I do, it's almost like I don't I I way I do, it's almost like I don't I I got to remember the play that I'm in. got to remember the play that I'm in. got to remember the play that I'm in. >> Yeah. play that I'm in is one with loss >> Yeah. play that I'm in is one with loss >> Yeah. play that I'm in is one with loss >> and tragedy >> and tragedy >> and tragedy >> and pain. It's also one with a rescuer. >> and pain. It's also one with a rescuer. >> and pain. It's also one with a rescuer. >> It's also one that has a powerful >> It's also one that has a powerful >> It's also one that has a powerful ending. But I got to remember the kind ending. But I got to remember the kind ending. But I got to remember the kind of story I'm in. of story I'm in. of story I'm in. >> This is the Crossroads Daily. No >> This is the Crossroads Daily. No >> This is the Crossroads Daily. No experts, no perfect people, just honest experts, no perfect people, just honest experts, no perfect people, just honest conversations about what happens when conversations about what happens when conversations about what happens when the Bible shows up in real life. >> Hey, I'm Chuck. >> Hey, I'm Chuck. >> I'm Jamie. >> I'm Jamie. >> I'm Jamie. >> I'm Josh. >> I'm Josh. >> I'm Josh. >> I'm Alex. [music] >> I'm Alex. [music] >> I'm Alex. [music] We are the Brady Bunch. [laughter] The We are the Brady Bunch. [laughter] The We are the Brady Bunch. [laughter] The Brady Bunch. Brady Bunch. Brady Bunch. >> Wait, I just >> Wait, I just >> Wait, I just We became the Brady Bunch. [laughter] We became the Brady Bunch. [laughter] We became the Brady Bunch. [laughter] >> Sorry.

>> Sorry. >> Sorry. >> Thank you for that. That delighted me. >> Thank you for that. That delighted me. >> Thank you for that. That delighted me. >> So, we are >> So, we are >> So, we are >> How about this? How about this for a >> How about this? How about this for a >> How about this? How about this for a short transition? Hard left turn. short transition? Hard left turn. short transition? Hard left turn. >> Uh, from the Brady Bunch to the >> Uh, from the Brady Bunch to the >> Uh, from the Brady Bunch to the sovereignty of God and free will, cuz sovereignty of God and free will, cuz sovereignty of God and free will, cuz [snorts] that's what Paul gets into. [snorts] that's what Paul gets into. [snorts] that's what Paul gets into. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Romans nine. Um, oh gosh. I think like, Romans nine. Um, oh gosh. I think like, Romans nine. Um, oh gosh. I think like, you know, for many of us, if I think you know, for many of us, if I think you know, for many of us, if I think about over my life, what are the about over my life, what are the about over my life, what are the questions that really cause people to questions that really cause people to questions that really cause people to say, "I'm not in on the God thing. I'm say, "I'm not in on the God thing. I'm say, "I'm not in on the God thing. I'm not in [clears throat] on the Jesus not in [clears throat] on the Jesus not in [clears throat] on the Jesus thing." thing." thing." >> This is a core one. This is a core one. >> This is a core one. This is a core one. >> This is a core one. This is a core one. You're telling me God is good and God is You're telling me God is good and God is You're telling me God is good and God is all powerful. And yet, I look at this all powerful. And yet, I look at this all powerful. And yet, I look at this world around me and I see all kinds of world around me and I see all kinds of world around me and I see all kinds of things that don't look like that's true. things that don't look like that's true. things that don't look like that's true. >> Sure. And so the tension that Paul is >> Sure. And so the tension that Paul is >> Sure. And so the tension that Paul is even sitting in as he's thinking about even sitting in as he's thinking about even sitting in as he's thinking about the nation of Israel and all they've the nation of Israel and all they've the nation of Israel and all they've been through and the fact that like God been through and the fact that like God been through and the fact that like God found him. I mean think about Paul's found him. I mean think about Paul's found him. I mean think about Paul's perspective. Paul's like God literally perspective. Paul's like God literally perspective. Paul's like God literally knocked me off of a horse or whatever he knocked me off of a horse or whatever he knocked me off of a horse or whatever he was riding was riding was riding >> and [clears throat] met me on the road >> and [clears throat] met me on the road >> and [clears throat] met me on the road to Damascus, a Jew deeply steeped in to Damascus, a Jew deeply steeped in to Damascus, a Jew deeply steeped in Judaism so that I would find the risen Judaism so that I would find the risen Judaism so that I would find the risen Jesus. And yet when I go to all these Jesus. And yet when I go to all these Jesus. And yet when I go to all these cities, cities, cities, >> my first stop is the synagogues, >> my first stop is the synagogues, >> my first stop is the synagogues, >> and I get rejected over and over again >> and I get rejected over and over again >> and I get rejected over and over again by my fellow brothers and sisters, the by my fellow brothers and sisters, the by my fellow brothers and sisters, the people that I share a nationality with, people that I share a nationality with, people that I share a nationality with, that I share an ethnicity with, they're that I share an ethnicity with, they're that I share an ethnicity with, they're not open to the gospel of Jesus. And not open to the gospel of Jesus. And not open to the gospel of Jesus. And yet, when I go to these gentile pagan yet, when I go to these gentile pagan yet, when I go to these gentile pagan people, that's where I'm getting the people, that's where I'm getting the people, that's where I'm getting the most fruit. And Paul is lamenting on most fruit. And Paul is lamenting on most fruit. And Paul is lamenting on that and saying like, "What's what's up that and saying like, "What's what's up that and saying like, "What's what's up with that, God? These are your chosen with that, God? These are your chosen with that, God? These are your chosen people, but yet I don't see this people, but yet I don't see this people, but yet I don't see this happening." So I think there's a real happening." So I think there's a real happening." So I think there's a real question around question around question around >> how do you reconcile God's sovereignty

>> how do you reconcile God's sovereignty >> how do you reconcile God's sovereignty with free will? with free will? with free will? >> I think define sovereignty first. So >> I think define sovereignty first. So >> I think define sovereignty first. So >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> do do we all have a what is our what's >> do do we all have a what is our what's >> do do we all have a what is our what's your what do you believe sovereignty is? your what do you believe sovereignty is? your what do you believe sovereignty is? >> I mean there is a definition term for >> I mean there is a definition term for >> I mean there is a definition term for it. But I think it. But I think it. But I think >> Sure. Yeah. But I hear you saying like >> Sure. Yeah. But I hear you saying like >> Sure. Yeah. But I hear you saying like what's it mean to me? Like what do I what's it mean to me? Like what do I what's it mean to me? Like what do I believe? believe? believe? >> I do. Oh gosh. I think that's hard. I >> I do. Oh gosh. I think that's hard. I >> I do. Oh gosh. I think that's hard. I think I believe that God is over think I believe that God is over think I believe that God is over everything. everything. everything. >> I believe that he is all knowing and all >> I believe that he is all knowing and all >> I believe that he is all knowing and all powerful. powerful. powerful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so like what's my part to play in >> And so like what's my part to play in >> And so like what's my part to play in it? I think is the answer to your it? I think is the answer to your it? I think is the answer to your question of how free will plays into question of how free will plays into question of how free will plays into that? But I do think that that's that? But I do think that that's that? But I do think that that's >> I think that that's what I believe >> I think that that's what I believe >> I think that that's what I believe sovereignty is is all powerful, all sovereignty is is all powerful, all sovereignty is is all powerful, all knowing. knowing. knowing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's a tough one. control. >> Yeah. It's a tough one. control. >> Yeah. It's a tough one. control. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough one to define. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough one to define. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough one to define. I I would say sovereignty is what to I I would say sovereignty is what to I I would say sovereignty is what to what degree do you believe God gets his what degree do you believe God gets his what degree do you believe God gets his way.

way. way. >> That's how I think about it. Like >> That's how I think about it. Like >> That's how I think about it. Like >> some people say 100% in every >> some people say 100% in every >> some people say 100% in every circumstance God is getting his way. circumstance God is getting his way. circumstance God is getting his way. Some people say I think there's a lot Some people say I think there's a lot Some people say I think there's a lot more choice involved and God doesn't more choice involved and God doesn't more choice involved and God doesn't always get his way. always get his way. always get his way. >> Um I think it and there's a lot in >> Um I think it and there's a lot in >> Um I think it and there's a lot in between, but like for me when I think between, but like for me when I think between, but like for me when I think about sovereignty like someone who says about sovereignty like someone who says about sovereignty like someone who says I believe in the sovereignty of God is I believe in the sovereignty of God is I believe in the sovereignty of God is saying I believe God gets his way. Yeah. saying I believe God gets his way. Yeah. saying I believe God gets his way. Yeah. >> And oh, by the way, I do believe in the >> And oh, by the way, I do believe in the >> And oh, by the way, I do believe in the sovereignty of God. I sovereignty of God. I sovereignty of God. I >> But I also recognize that free will is a >> But I also recognize that free will is a >> But I also recognize that free will is a real thing. real thing. real thing. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Somehow that works in God's sovereign >> Somehow that works in God's sovereign >> Somehow that works in God's sovereign plan. plan. plan. >> Sure. Well, I think people can use God's >> Sure. Well, I think people can use God's >> Sure. Well, I think people can use God's sovereignty as an excuse to use their sovereignty as an excuse to use their sovereignty as an excuse to use their free will in a bad way and make bad free will in a bad way and make bad free will in a bad way and make bad choices of like, well, yeah, I can I can choices of like, well, yeah, I can I can choices of like, well, yeah, I can I can do this, whatever. It's a sin. But God do this, whatever. It's a sin. But God do this, whatever. It's a sin. But God is sovereign and he will forgive me and is sovereign and he will forgive me and is sovereign and he will forgive me and he's in control so I can do whatever I he's in control so I can do whatever I he's in control so I can do whatever I want. want. want. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And there's there's there's they have to they have to work together. they have to they have to work together. they have to they have to work together. Like I still have because I have free Like I still have because I have free Like I still have because I have free will. I have to do my part will. I have to do my part will. I have to do my part >> in that, right?

>> in that, right? >> in that, right? >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think the >> I think the >> I think the >> Well, what I think sovereignty is is >> Well, what I think sovereignty is is >> Well, what I think sovereignty is is perfection. perfection. perfection. >> God's perfection. M >> God's perfection. M >> God's perfection. M >> I mean that's not the definition of it >> I mean that's not the definition of it >> I mean that's not the definition of it but that's what I think of but that's what I think of but that's what I think of >> and if something is perfect it is worthy >> and if something is perfect it is worthy >> and if something is perfect it is worthy of whatever whatever it wants from me. of whatever whatever it wants from me. of whatever whatever it wants from me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think the other side of the >> I think the other side of the >> I think the other side of the sovereignty thing is not just I get to sovereignty thing is not just I get to sovereignty thing is not just I get to do what I want because there's free do what I want because there's free do what I want because there's free will. I think God's sovereignty is a will. I think God's sovereignty is a will. I think God's sovereignty is a barrier to people barrier to people barrier to people >> because how to what you said earlier, >> because how to what you said earlier, >> because how to what you said earlier, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> How can a good God exist and a child >> How can a good God exist and a child >> How can a good God exist and a child die? die? die? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> That's like simple. or or go hungry or >> That's like simple. or or go hungry or >> That's like simple. or or go hungry or any of the things we look at in the any of the things we look at in the any of the things we look at in the world and we go, world and we go, world and we go, >> geez, and I >> geez, and I >> geez, and I >> that's not perfect. >> that's not perfect. >> that's not perfect. >> That's not perfect. And I don't think >> That's not perfect. And I don't think >> That's not perfect. And I don't think there's a simple answer except to say there's a simple answer except to say there's a simple answer except to say >> there was perfection. >> there was perfection. >> there was perfection. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> God is redeeming it. >> God is redeeming it. >> God is redeeming it. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And there will be perfection again. But >> And there will be perfection again. But >> And there will be perfection again. But it's the in between. It's in the in it's the in between. It's in the in it's the in between. It's in the in between. Yeah. We live in the in between. Yeah. We live in the in between. Yeah. We live in the in between. And even in that owning that between. And even in that owning that between. And even in that owning that part of God, I mean, this is the thing part of God, I mean, this is the thing part of God, I mean, this is the thing that's hard to wrestle with, but like that's hard to wrestle with, but like that's hard to wrestle with, but like part of God's perfect will was to create part of God's perfect will was to create part of God's perfect will was to create free will agents.

free will agents. free will agents. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's not just humans. >> And that's not just humans. >> And that's not just humans. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, story of the Bible is >> You know, story of the Bible is >> You know, story of the Bible is >> angels are free will agents. >> angels are free will agents. >> angels are free will agents. >> One has said angels, guy named Lucifer, >> One has said angels, guy named Lucifer, >> One has said angels, guy named Lucifer, right? I mean, [laughter] like there right? I mean, [laughter] like there right? I mean, [laughter] like there like that's all part of the story. And like that's all part of the story. And like that's all part of the story. And and and again, not to be trit about it, and and again, not to be trit about it, and and again, not to be trit about it, but I think that, you know, what Paul but I think that, you know, what Paul but I think that, you know, what Paul kind of brings us to is there is always kind of brings us to is there is always kind of brings us to is there is always going to be a place with which we just going to be a place with which we just going to be a place with which we just have to say, I'm I'm not sovereign. have to say, I'm I'm not sovereign. have to say, I'm I'm not sovereign. >> And so, there's going to be mystery >> And so, there's going to be mystery >> And so, there's going to be mystery here. I'm not going to be able to answer here. I'm not going to be able to answer here. I'm not going to be able to answer every question or even give people, you every question or even give people, you every question or even give people, you know, I mean, lots of times as a pastor, know, I mean, lots of times as a pastor, know, I mean, lots of times as a pastor, people come to me and they're like, people come to me and they're like, people come to me and they're like, "You're supposed to have the answer." "You're supposed to have the answer." "You're supposed to have the answer." And I'm like, And I'm like, And I'm like, >> "Yeah, >> "Yeah, >> "Yeah, >> I can't, you know, >> I can't, you know, >> I can't, you know, >> I don't have an answer on why your child >> I don't have an answer on why your child >> I don't have an answer on why your child died. I can't give you chapter and verse died. I can't give you chapter and verse died. I can't give you chapter and verse on like you know and even if I could on like you know and even if I could on like you know and even if I could with that with that is that really what with that with that is that really what with that with that is that really what you're looking for you're looking for you're looking for >> you know >> you know >> you know >> so I do think there's something real >> so I do think there's something real >> so I do think there's something real where Paul even in Romans 9 says look where Paul even in Romans 9 says look where Paul even in Romans 9 says look >> you are not God >> you are not God >> you are not God >> and there's got to be a place of >> and there's got to be a place of >> and there's got to be a place of releasing this to God's will and releasing this to God's will and releasing this to God's will and believing in his goodness goes back to believing in his goodness goes back to believing in his goodness goes back to what we said in Romans 8 like we asked what we said in Romans 8 like we asked what we said in Romans 8 like we asked the question like what does this say the question like what does this say the question like what does this say about the character of God in Romans about the character of God in Romans about the character of God in Romans [clears throat] 8 it's like God is good [clears throat] 8 it's like God is good [clears throat] 8 it's like God is good is good and he wants good things and if is good and he wants good things and if is good and he wants good things and if God is good that means he's good in the God is good that means he's good in the God is good that means he's good in the slums of African and Haiti nations where slums of African and Haiti nations where slums of African and Haiti nations where people are living in the most squalid people are living in the most squalid people are living in the most squalid conditions we can imagine. Yes.

conditions we can imagine. Yes. conditions we can imagine. Yes. >> And he's good >> And he's good >> And he's good >> in let's just call it 2026 Cincinnati, >> in let's just call it 2026 Cincinnati, >> in let's just call it 2026 Cincinnati, Ohio for the four of us who are probably Ohio for the four of us who are probably Ohio for the four of us who are probably not going home to squalid conditions. not going home to squalid conditions. not going home to squalid conditions. His goodness can't be based on the His goodness can't be based on the His goodness can't be based on the circumstances. That's hard. circumstances. That's hard. circumstances. That's hard. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But true. >> But true. >> But true. >> Have you guys ever played the Sims? >> Have you guys ever played the Sims? >> Have you guys ever played the Sims? >> Like a computer [laughter] game? >> Like a computer [laughter] game? >> Like a computer [laughter] game? >> Did you just say the Sims? >> Did you just say the Sims? >> Did you just say the Sims? >> Is it like Sim City? Yeah, but it's >> Is it like Sim City? Yeah, but it's >> Is it like Sim City? Yeah, but it's called The Sims. The called The Sims. The called The Sims. The >> Sims, right? Not like years ago. It's >> Sims, right? Not like years ago. It's >> Sims, right? Not like years ago. It's like older. Whatever. like older. Whatever. like older. Whatever. >> Okay, you guys can tell me if I'm wrong >> Okay, you guys can tell me if I'm wrong >> Okay, you guys can tell me if I'm wrong because you guys are smarter than me, because you guys are smarter than me, because you guys are smarter than me, but when I was when I was younger, but when I was when I was younger, but when I was when I was younger, someone described free will to me using someone described free will to me using someone described free will to me using the Sims as an example. the Sims as an example. the Sims as an example. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> So, when you're playing I loved the Sims >> So, when you're playing I loved the Sims >> So, when you're playing I loved the Sims growing up, and when you're playing the growing up, and when you're playing the growing up, and when you're playing the Sims, it's Sims, it's Sims, it's >> real quick, maybe we should explain what >> real quick, maybe we should explain what >> real quick, maybe we should explain what the Sims are. So early early simple the Sims are. So early early simple the Sims are. So early early simple version of a simulation game. Yes. version of a simulation game. Yes. version of a simulation game. Yes. >> The original Minecraft. >> The original Minecraft. >> The original Minecraft. >> The original Minecraft. That's exactly >> The original Minecraft. That's exactly >> The original Minecraft. That's exactly right. Where right. Where right. Where >> is the millennial?

>> is the millennial? >> is the millennial? >> Yeah. There were characters and you >> Yeah. There were characters and you >> Yeah. There were characters and you could like make a world for them. could like make a world for them. could like make a world for them. >> Yeah. You could build a house and then >> Yeah. You could build a house and then >> Yeah. You could build a house and then you had these people and you you you had these people and you you you had these people and you you controlled them and told them what to controlled them and told them what to controlled them and told them what to do. And so that's how free will was do. And so that's how free will was do. And so that's how free will was taught to me is taught to me is taught to me is >> if you are in the game The Sims and >> if you are in the game The Sims and >> if you are in the game The Sims and you're a human in there, there is you're a human in there, there is you're a human in there, there is someone who is controlling your every someone who is controlling your every someone who is controlling your every move. Mhm. move. Mhm. move. Mhm. >> You have to tell them when to go to the >> You have to tell them when to go to the >> You have to tell them when to go to the bathroom and when to walk to make food bathroom and when to walk to make food bathroom and when to walk to make food because their hung hunger level is because their hung hunger level is because their hung hunger level is getting red or whatever it is. And so getting red or whatever it is. And so getting red or whatever it is. And so that is the definition of not free will. that is the definition of not free will. that is the definition of not free will. Like you there's someone controlling Like you there's someone controlling Like you there's someone controlling their every move. And those people in their every move. And those people in their every move. And those people in the Sims are not capable of love or the Sims are not capable of love or the Sims are not capable of love or adoration or real relationship. adoration or real relationship. adoration or real relationship. >> Wonder surprise. Think about >> Wonder surprise. Think about >> Wonder surprise. Think about all of those things. And all of those things. And all of those things. And >> they cannot be worshippers because they >> they cannot be worshippers because they >> they cannot be worshippers because they don't they can't choose it for don't they can't choose it for don't they can't choose it for themselves. Something has to be chosen themselves. Something has to be chosen themselves. Something has to be chosen for them.

for them. for them. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And so I've always thought of that >> And so I've always thought of that >> And so I've always thought of that there's there has to be some sort of there's there has to be some sort of there's there has to be some sort of choice choice choice >> for me having free will in choosing God. >> for me having free will in choosing God. >> for me having free will in choosing God. You are control. God, I want your You are control. God, I want your You are control. God, I want your perfection in my life. God, I believe perfection in my life. God, I believe perfection in my life. God, I believe that you are above all things so that I that you are above all things so that I that you are above all things so that I can have a relationship with him and can can have a relationship with him and can can have a relationship with him and can worship him and can actually experience worship him and can actually experience worship him and can actually experience love because I have free will. love because I have free will. love because I have free will. >> Amen. Amen. >> Amen. Amen. >> Amen. Amen. >> So, we can debate whether God is >> So, we can debate whether God is >> So, we can debate whether God is sovereign or what that means. Um, I know sovereign or what that means. Um, I know sovereign or what that means. Um, I know I try to act sovereign against my over I try to act sovereign against my over I try to act sovereign against my over my own life a lot. Yeah. my own life a lot. Yeah. my own life a lot. Yeah. >> And when I do that, it's based on fears. >> And when I do that, it's based on fears. >> And when I do that, it's based on fears. It's based on the fear that I'm going to It's based on the fear that I'm going to It's based on the fear that I'm going to end up alone. end up alone. end up alone. >> It's based on the fear that I'm going to >> It's based on the fear that I'm going to >> It's based on the fear that I'm going to experience pain and I'm trying to avoid experience pain and I'm trying to avoid experience pain and I'm trying to avoid pain. Um, what fears do you think tempt pain. Um, what fears do you think tempt pain. Um, what fears do you think tempt you or cause you to act sovereign over you or cause you to act sovereign over you or cause you to act sovereign over your own life? I think it's the big one your own life? I think it's the big one your own life? I think it's the big one is the fear of pain, the fear of is the fear of pain, the fear of is the fear of pain, the fear of suffering. We suffering. We suffering. We I I'll just say I'm not going to say we I I'll just say I'm not going to say we I I'll just say I'm not going to say we I have a fundamental misunderstanding of I have a fundamental misunderstanding of I have a fundamental misunderstanding of suffering suffering suffering >> or I have had I have a new >> or I have had I have a new >> or I have had I have a new understanding. And I think the the thing understanding. And I think the the thing understanding. And I think the the thing about sovereignty and free will and all about sovereignty and free will and all about sovereignty and free will and all of those things. It it is it is never an of those things. It it is it is never an of those things. It it is it is never an issue when I'm doing what I want to do.

issue when I'm doing what I want to do. issue when I'm doing what I want to do. >> It is never an issue when I'm behaving >> It is never an issue when I'm behaving >> It is never an issue when I'm behaving the way I want to behave. It only the way I want to behave. It only the way I want to behave. It only becomes an issue, I think, becomes an issue, I think, becomes an issue, I think, >> when there's pain and suffering. >> when there's pain and suffering. >> when there's pain and suffering. If I think it is there free will is the If I think it is there free will is the If I think it is there free will is the wrong question. It is even the wrong wrong question. It is even the wrong wrong question. It is even the wrong debate. It is can we suffer well debate. It is can we suffer well debate. It is can we suffer well >> if we can learn to suffer well those >> if we can learn to suffer well those >> if we can learn to suffer well those questions become irrelevant. And I don't questions become irrelevant. And I don't questions become irrelevant. And I don't they're not irrelevant questions. But I they're not irrelevant questions. But I they're not irrelevant questions. But I think when we look if we can just look think when we look if we can just look think when we look if we can just look at suffering as a gift, at suffering as a gift, at suffering as a gift, >> some kind of gift because when we when >> some kind of gift because when we when >> some kind of gift because when we when we're able to if we're able to suffer we're able to if we're able to suffer we're able to if we're able to suffer well on the other side of it there again well on the other side of it there again well on the other side of it there again there's so much uh beauty and there's so much uh beauty and there's so much uh beauty and possibility that things like possibility that things like possibility that things like sovereignty, things like free will, sovereignty, things like free will, sovereignty, things like free will, things like God's goodness, we go, "Oh, things like God's goodness, we go, "Oh, things like God's goodness, we go, "Oh, was that was that a thing?" Yeah. Oh, I was that was that a thing?" Yeah. Oh, I was that was that a thing?" Yeah. Oh, I guess sure. guess sure. guess sure. >> Yeah. on the other side of it, I go, >> Yeah. on the other side of it, I go, >> Yeah. on the other side of it, I go, >> "Yeah, >> "Yeah, >> "Yeah, >> wow. God is good." >> wow. God is good." >> wow. God is good." >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> sure. >> sure. >> sure. >> And those questions to me as right now, >> And those questions to me as right now, >> And those questions to me as right now, they're not as important to me anymore. they're not as important to me anymore. they're not as important to me anymore. >> That doesn't mean they're not important.

>> That doesn't mean they're not important. >> That doesn't mean they're not important. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But to me, right now, I just Yeah. I >> But to me, right now, I just Yeah. I >> But to me, right now, I just Yeah. I don't care. Right. don't care. Right. don't care. Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think about um John Eldridge asked the >> I think about um John Eldridge asked the >> I think about um John Eldridge asked the question, "What kind of story have we question, "What kind of story have we question, "What kind of story have we fallen into?" Well, actually to be fallen into?" Well, actually to be fallen into?" Well, actually to be clear, Sam Wise Gamji Samise Gami clear, Sam Wise Gamji Samise Gami clear, Sam Wise Gamji Samise Gami >> of the [laughter] Lord of the Rings >> of the [laughter] Lord of the Rings >> of the [laughter] Lord of the Rings asked the question he's quoting Sam Wise asked the question he's quoting Sam Wise asked the question he's quoting Sam Wise Gam. That's what he's quoting. Um, but I Gam. That's what he's quoting. Um, but I Gam. That's what he's quoting. Um, but I think to your point, Josh, think to your point, Josh, think to your point, Josh, >> it's easy for us to think that we've >> it's easy for us to think that we've >> it's easy for us to think that we've fallen into a different kind of story fallen into a different kind of story fallen into a different kind of story than what is real. When the truth is we than what is real. When the truth is we than what is real. When the truth is we are in a war. are in a war. are in a war. >> We fall we've fallen into a story that >> We fall we've fallen into a story that >> We fall we've fallen into a story that is about love, but we've also fallen is about love, but we've also fallen is about love, but we've also fallen into a story where there is a real war into a story where there is a real war into a story where there is a real war going on, a spiritual war. And that's going on, a spiritual war. And that's going on, a spiritual war. And that's what the Bible calls it. And I think what the Bible calls it. And I think what the Bible calls it. And I think when I, you know, it' be like if there when I, you know, it' be like if there when I, you know, it' be like if there was a stage play, I know you, you know, was a stage play, I know you, you know, was a stage play, I know you, you know, you've got more experience in this, but you've got more experience in this, but you've got more experience in this, but I'm guessing that if you know the I'm guessing that if you know the I'm guessing that if you know the theater Yeah. Pick a deep tragedy play. theater Yeah. Pick a deep tragedy play. theater Yeah. Pick a deep tragedy play. Mc Beth. Mc Beth. Mc Beth. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Right. I'm guessing that if I walked >> Right. I'm guessing that if I walked >> Right. I'm guessing that if I walked into McBTH as a actor that was kind of into McBTH as a actor that was kind of into McBTH as a actor that was kind of subbing for another actor and I start subbing for another actor and I start subbing for another actor and I start like cracking jokes and trying to make like cracking jokes and trying to make like cracking jokes and trying to make people laugh, pretty soon the audience people laugh, pretty soon the audience people laugh, pretty soon the audience is going to say he he doesn't know what is going to say he he doesn't know what is going to say he he doesn't know what play he's in.

play he's in. play he's in. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Right. And I think sometimes to your >> Right. And I think sometimes to your >> Right. And I think sometimes to your point, when I respond to suffering the point, when I respond to suffering the point, when I respond to suffering the way I do, it's almost like I don't I I way I do, it's almost like I don't I I way I do, it's almost like I don't I I gotta remember the play that I'm in. gotta remember the play that I'm in. gotta remember the play that I'm in. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Play that I'm in is one with loss. Yeah. >> Play that I'm in is one with loss. Yeah. >> Play that I'm in is one with loss. Yeah. >> And tragedy y and pain. It's also one >> And tragedy y and pain. It's also one >> And tragedy y and pain. It's also one with a rescuer. Y with a rescuer. Y with a rescuer. Y >> it's also one that has a powerful >> it's also one that has a powerful >> it's also one that has a powerful ending. But I got to remember the kind ending. But I got to remember the kind ending. But I got to remember the kind of story I'm in. of story I'm in. of story I'm in. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think that's part of the whole free >> I think that's part of the whole free >> I think that's part of the whole free will trusting thing. And and again, will trusting thing. And and again, will trusting thing. And and again, where where does how do I try to act where where does how do I try to act where where does how do I try to act sovereign over my life when I'm trying sovereign over my life when I'm trying sovereign over my life when I'm trying to act like I'm in another play? to act like I'm in another play? to act like I'm in another play? [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> That's good. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> That's that's that's what I'm doing. >> That's that's that's what I'm doing. >> That's that's that's what I'm doing. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um man, we could just camp on this for a >> Um man, we could just camp on this for a >> Um man, we could just camp on this for a long time. I I'm gonna I'll finish with long time. I I'm gonna I'll finish with long time. I I'm gonna I'll finish with this. So, and Josh knows this guy. Um this. So, and Josh knows this guy. Um this. So, and Josh knows this guy. Um there's a guy that used to do um there's a guy that used to do um there's a guy that used to do um ministry in our church around ministry in our church around ministry in our church around trafficking, anti-trafficking efforts. trafficking, anti-trafficking efforts. trafficking, anti-trafficking efforts. And for a lot of his career, he actually And for a lot of his career, he actually And for a lot of his career, he actually lived in India and was literally part of lived in India and was literally part of lived in India and was literally part of the team knocking down doors, freeing the team knocking down doors, freeing the team knocking down doors, freeing girls from forced prostitution in these girls from forced prostitution in these girls from forced prostitution in these brothel, girls in the worst brothel, girls in the worst brothel, girls in the worst >> conditions and situations. And as you >> conditions and situations. And as you >> conditions and situations. And as you know, like when you get out of that know, like when you get out of that know, like when you get out of that situation, then you have the whole situation, then you have the whole situation, then you have the whole psychological, psychological, psychological, >> social, physical healing that has to >> social, physical healing that has to >> social, physical healing that has to happen for these girls. And and some of happen for these girls. And and some of happen for these girls. And and some of them like they don't ever get to they them like they don't ever get to they them like they don't ever get to they certainly don't ever get quote unquote certainly don't ever get quote unquote certainly don't ever get quote unquote back to good, right? Even if they're back to good, right? Even if they're back to good, right? Even if they're free, like there's a whole journey. And free, like there's a whole journey. And free, like there's a whole journey. And I'll never forget what he said. He said, I'll never forget what he said. He said, I'll never forget what he said. He said, you know, Chuck, I had to wrestle and you know, Chuck, I had to wrestle and you know, Chuck, I had to wrestle and face like is is God good? Is is is it face like is is God good? Is is is it face like is is God good? Is is is it worth it? Is the gamble of choice, which worth it? Is the gamble of choice, which worth it? Is the gamble of choice, which creates the opportunity for love, but is creates the opportunity for love, but is creates the opportunity for love, but is also the reason for so much evil. Is it also the reason for so much evil. Is it also the reason for so much evil. Is it worth it?

worth it? worth it? >> I'll never forget what he said, and I >> I'll never forget what he said, and I >> I'll never forget what he said, and I just keep coming back to this. He said, just keep coming back to this. He said, just keep coming back to this. He said, "Chuck, here's the thing. Think about "Chuck, here's the thing. Think about "Chuck, here's the thing. Think about what the story of God tells us. God has what the story of God tells us. God has what the story of God tells us. God has all of eternity to make it right. all of eternity to make it right. all of eternity to make it right. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> He has all of eternity to make it right. >> He has all of eternity to make it right. >> He has all of eternity to make it right. >> We can. And and again, if you're >> We can. And and again, if you're >> We can. And and again, if you're hurting, I'm not minimizing your hurt. hurting, I'm not minimizing your hurt. hurting, I'm not minimizing your hurt. Please don't hear me minimizing your Please don't hear me minimizing your Please don't hear me minimizing your hurt in this. hurt in this. hurt in this. >> And yet Paul says, "We see us through a >> And yet Paul says, "We see us through a >> And yet Paul says, "We see us through a glass darkly or dimly. glass darkly or dimly. glass darkly or dimly. >> One day we will see fully." And if God >> One day we will see fully." And if God >> One day we will see fully." And if God is as good as I believe that he is, is as good as I believe that he is, is as good as I believe that he is, >> if the promise he has for life after >> if the promise he has for life after >> if the promise he has for life after this life is as good as it is, this life is as good as it is, this life is as good as it is, Paul puts it in powerful words. It is Paul puts it in powerful words. It is Paul puts it in powerful words. It is possible that our light and momentary possible that our light and momentary possible that our light and momentary sufferings, which are not light nor sufferings, which are not light nor sufferings, which are not light nor momentary, momentary, momentary, >> no. >> no. >> no. >> Can pale in comparison to the beauty of >> Can pale in comparison to the beauty of >> Can pale in comparison to the beauty of grace that awaits us. grace that awaits us. grace that awaits us. >> And I'll just tell you, I'm not saying >> And I'll just tell you, I'm not saying >> And I'll just tell you, I'm not saying you have to believe that. I'm telling you have to believe that. I'm telling you have to believe that. I'm telling you, that's what allows me to put my you, that's what allows me to put my you, that's what allows me to put my head on the pillow at night and wake up head on the pillow at night and wake up head on the pillow at night and wake up the next day and follow Jesus.

the next day and follow Jesus. the next day and follow Jesus. >> And so, I hope that's encouraging to you >> And so, I hope that's encouraging to you >> And so, I hope that's encouraging to you as you wrestle with these challenging as you wrestle with these challenging as you wrestle with these challenging questions that Paul is raising. And questions that Paul is raising. And questions that Paul is raising. And praise God, we're not done. We're not praise God, we're not done. We're not praise God, we're not done. We're not done. Paul's not done. There is more done. Paul's not done. There is more done. Paul's not done. There is more coming in Romans to help us understand coming in Romans to help us understand coming in Romans to help us understand the powerful character of God and the the powerful character of God and the the powerful character of God and the power of his redemption.