Jesus on Relationships: Friendship with Pastor Reuben Ramsaran

Welcome to Deep Dive [music] Welcome to Deep Dive [music] Conversations. Today we're talking all Conversations. Today we're talking all Conversations. Today we're talking all about friendship. And Pastor Doug is about friendship. And Pastor Doug is about friendship. And Pastor Doug is joined by one of his best friends, joined by one of his best friends, joined by one of his best friends, [music] Pastor Ruben Ramsarin. Not only [music] Pastor Ruben Ramsarin. Not only [music] Pastor Ruben Ramsarin. Not only has Ruben been a friend to Doug for over has Ruben been a friend to Doug for over has Ruben been a friend to Doug for over 25 years, but he's also served at our 25 years, but he's also served at our 25 years, but he's also served at our [music] church as a family pastor and in [music] church as a family pastor and in [music] church as a family pastor and in many other roles, ministering to people many other roles, ministering to people many other roles, ministering to people in all seasons of life. Today, this in all seasons of life. Today, this in all seasons of life. Today, this conversation is personal for Doug and conversation is personal for Doug and conversation is personal for Doug and Ruben, but it's a great resource for all Ruben, but it's a great resource for all Ruben, but it's a great resource for all of us. the importance of friendship in of us. the importance of friendship in of us. the importance of friendship in our life as it mimics our relationship our life as it mimics our relationship our life as it mimics our relationship with God. How to be a friend to others with God. How to be a friend to others with God. How to be a friend to others and how to receive friendship for and how to receive friendship for and how to receive friendship for ourselves in every area and walk of ourselves in every area and walk of ourselves in every area and walk of life. So we hope today that this life. So we hope today that this life. So we hope today that this conversation serves [music] as a conversation serves [music] as a conversation serves [music] as a ministry to you and also a great ministry to you and also a great ministry to you and also a great resource. Let's jump in. So I'm here with my good friend Reuben. So I'm here with my good friend Reuben. We're going to talk about friendship. I We're going to talk about friendship. I We're going to talk about friendship. I thought of all the experts we could talk thought of all the experts we could talk thought of all the experts we could talk about relationships and friendship. I'd about relationships and friendship. I'd about relationships and friendship. I'd invite one of my best friends, my invite one of my best friends, my invite one of my best friends, my brother Ruben Ramsaran. It's a honor to brother Ruben Ramsaran. It's a honor to brother Ruben Ramsaran. It's a honor to have you here to talk about really the have you here to talk about really the have you here to talk about really the 26 years uh that we've had uh friendship 26 years uh that we've had uh friendship 26 years uh that we've had uh friendship and life together. So, uh tell me about and life together. So, uh tell me about and life together. So, uh tell me about you, your family and then how we met.

you, your family and then how we met. you, your family and then how we met. >> Yeah, 26 years has flown by and it's uh >> Yeah, 26 years has flown by and it's uh >> Yeah, 26 years has flown by and it's uh honestly been a gift. Uh I think to find honestly been a gift. Uh I think to find honestly been a gift. Uh I think to find a good friend in today's culture and a good friend in today's culture and a good friend in today's culture and society is like a gift that you can society is like a gift that you can society is like a gift that you can easily look by easily look by easily look by >> until you get to that spot where you're >> until you get to that spot where you're >> until you get to that spot where you're like, "Oh man, I need it." It's like like, "Oh man, I need it." It's like like, "Oh man, I need it." It's like that thing like your your body works and that thing like your your body works and that thing like your your body works and all of a sudden you realize it doesn't. all of a sudden you realize it doesn't. all of a sudden you realize it doesn't. and now you're praying for for a and now you're praying for for a and now you're praying for for a miracle. And often we like to pray for miracle. And often we like to pray for miracle. And often we like to pray for uh that miracle and friendship as well. uh that miracle and friendship as well. uh that miracle and friendship as well. And so we met uh 25 26 years ago. Um And so we met uh 25 26 years ago. Um And so we met uh 25 26 years ago. Um I've been married to my wife Pria for 27 I've been married to my wife Pria for 27 I've been married to my wife Pria for 27 years. Um I've been a part of staff here years. Um I've been a part of staff here years. Um I've been a part of staff here for for almost 25 years. Got six kids for for almost 25 years. Got six kids for for almost 25 years. Got six kids and we're we're very very blessed. When and we're we're very very blessed. When and we're we're very very blessed. When I think back about the the last several I think back about the the last several I think back about the the last several years, most of like our engagements have years, most of like our engagements have years, most of like our engagements have been around families. And so whether it been around families. And so whether it been around families. And so whether it be families that are in distress or be families that are in distress or be families that are in distress or families that are that are really families that are that are really families that are that are really thriving, uh, parenting classes or thriving, uh, parenting classes or thriving, uh, parenting classes or parenting events or just moments to parenting events or just moments to parenting events or just moments to reach into the family and and help. Uh, reach into the family and and help. Uh, reach into the family and and help. Uh, that's really what the Lord has allowed that's really what the Lord has allowed that's really what the Lord has allowed me to do over the past 25 years. It's me to do over the past 25 years. It's me to do over the past 25 years. It's been a blessing and an honor for me to been a blessing and an honor for me to been a blessing and an honor for me to do it alongside. do it alongside. do it alongside. >> We've been on some great adventures >> We've been on some great adventures >> We've been on some great adventures together. together. together. >> We have going to houses with uh kids >> We have going to houses with uh kids >> We have going to houses with uh kids that wanted to run away and do all the that wanted to run away and do all the that wanted to run away and do all the things and lots of stories, but it's things and lots of stories, but it's things and lots of stories, but it's always been fun doing it together.

always been fun doing it together. always been fun doing it together. >> Yeah. Every once on Father's Day, I'll >> Yeah. Every once on Father's Day, I'll >> Yeah. Every once on Father's Day, I'll get a text from one of those kids. get a text from one of those kids. get a text from one of those kids. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's always a blessing. look back >> And it's always a blessing. look back >> And it's always a blessing. look back and say, "Wow, uh you don't realize it and say, "Wow, uh you don't realize it and say, "Wow, uh you don't realize it in the moment, but you're making impacts in the moment, but you're making impacts in the moment, but you're making impacts through friendship and through through friendship and through through friendship and through relationship and through the favor of relationship and through the favor of relationship and through the favor of God." God." God." >> Yeah. So, we've been talking about in >> Yeah. So, we've been talking about in >> Yeah. So, we've been talking about in this uh podcast on relationships, this this uh podcast on relationships, this this uh podcast on relationships, this simple idea like it's not good for a simple idea like it's not good for a simple idea like it's not good for a person to be alone. That's what we see person to be alone. That's what we see person to be alone. That's what we see in Genesis and and that Jesus models in Genesis and and that Jesus models in Genesis and and that Jesus models this so well because he doesn't just say this so well because he doesn't just say this so well because he doesn't just say to his disciples like you're my to his disciples like you're my to his disciples like you're my servants, but he says I I call you servants, but he says I I call you servants, but he says I I call you friends. I invite you into friendship. friends. I invite you into friendship. friends. I invite you into friendship. And so let let's talk about how And so let let's talk about how And so let let's talk about how friendship begins, how it develops, how friendship begins, how it develops, how friendship begins, how it develops, how to how to keep friendships growing to how to keep friendships growing to how to keep friendships growing deeper and deeper. And I I think this is deeper and deeper. And I I think this is deeper and deeper. And I I think this is an important conversation because when an important conversation because when an important conversation because when we talk to all of our other guests on we talk to all of our other guests on we talk to all of our other guests on the podcast, we talk about marriage. the podcast, we talk about marriage. the podcast, we talk about marriage. There's a lot written about marriage and There's a lot written about marriage and There's a lot written about marriage and how to have a healthier marriage. how to have a healthier marriage. how to have a healthier marriage. There's a lot written about parenting, There's a lot written about parenting, There's a lot written about parenting, how to raise your kids. There's a lot how to raise your kids. There's a lot how to raise your kids. There's a lot written about outreach and reaching out written about outreach and reaching out written about outreach and reaching out to your neighbors, but there's not a lot to your neighbors, but there's not a lot to your neighbors, but there's not a lot written about friendship. How do you written about friendship. How do you written about friendship. How do you become a good friend? become a good friend? become a good friend? >> How do you maintain that friendship? How >> How do you maintain that friendship? How >> How do you maintain that friendship? How do you grow deeper in that friendship? do you grow deeper in that friendship? do you grow deeper in that friendship? So let's talk a little bit about first So let's talk a little bit about first So let's talk a little bit about first the first question why do we need the first question why do we need the first question why do we need friends friends friends >> in so many I think in so many ways we we >> in so many I think in so many ways we we >> in so many I think in so many ways we we we obviously you said it before we we we obviously you said it before we we we obviously you said it before we we see in scripture God says that it's not see in scripture God says that it's not see in scripture God says that it's not good for man to be alone you know and I good for man to be alone you know and I good for man to be alone you know and I and I think I think when when I felt my and I think I think when when I felt my and I think I think when when I felt my need for friendship the most is when I need for friendship the most is when I need for friendship the most is when I felt the most lonely felt the most lonely felt the most lonely >> it's like in the in the quietness or the >> it's like in the in the quietness or the >> it's like in the in the quietness or the stillness of of life in those moments stillness of of life in those moments stillness of of life in those moments you're like man how do I process this you're like man how do I process this you're like man how do I process this how am I supposed to think about it and how am I supposed to think about it and how am I supposed to think about it and so so often I I think I I see my need so so often I I think I I see my need so so often I I think I I see my need for friendship in those in those for friendship in those in those for friendship in those in those moments. And and and when I allow myself

moments. And and and when I allow myself moments. And and and when I allow myself to reach out and to be cared for by a to reach out and to be cared for by a to reach out and to be cared for by a friend in those moments is when you friend in those moments is when you friend in those moments is when you realize the power or the influence of realize the power or the influence of realize the power or the influence of what God was talking about. When he says what God was talking about. When he says what God was talking about. When he says it's not good for a man to be alone, it's not good for a man to be alone, it's not good for a man to be alone, it's that that that word good is it's that that that word good is it's that that that word good is probably a loaded word. probably a loaded word. probably a loaded word. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> That that you don't realize all the >> That that you don't realize all the >> That that you don't realize all the layers, all all the textures until until layers, all all the textures until until layers, all all the textures until until you find yourself in that space. But I you find yourself in that space. But I you find yourself in that space. But I think sadly we sometimes ignore that and think sadly we sometimes ignore that and think sadly we sometimes ignore that and we allow ourselves to to suffer in that we allow ourselves to to suffer in that we allow ourselves to to suffer in that loneliness and it drives us to things loneliness and it drives us to things loneliness and it drives us to things and behaviors that that we can be and behaviors that that we can be and behaviors that that we can be embarrassed to talk about. embarrassed to talk about. embarrassed to talk about. >> Yeah. So I think just speaking about men >> Yeah. So I think just speaking about men >> Yeah. So I think just speaking about men for a second, men are wired to achieve for a second, men are wired to achieve for a second, men are wired to achieve and to accomplish. I got to build my and to accomplish. I got to build my and to accomplish. I got to build my business. I got to raise my family. I business. I got to raise my family. I business. I got to raise my family. I got to make money. I gotta I want to be got to make money. I gotta I want to be got to make money. I gotta I want to be an influencer. I want to make a an influencer. I want to make a an influencer. I want to make a difference in the world. And so the idea difference in the world. And so the idea difference in the world. And so the idea of I spend time cultivating a friendship of I spend time cultivating a friendship of I spend time cultivating a friendship is is not typically on the top five of a is is not typically on the top five of a is is not typically on the top five of a guy's thing. And so a guy might find guy's thing. And so a guy might find guy's thing. And so a guy might find himself in his 30s or 40s and we talk to himself in his 30s or 40s and we talk to himself in his 30s or 40s and we talk to a lot of guys. a lot of guys. a lot of guys. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and they're like, "Yeah, just just >> Um and they're like, "Yeah, just just >> Um and they're like, "Yeah, just just this this got neglected." And so I have this this got neglected." And so I have this this got neglected." And so I have all this outward success, but I have no all this outward success, but I have no all this outward success, but I have no one to share it with. So like, one to share it with. So like, one to share it with. So like, >> as a guy, how do you find your way out >> as a guy, how do you find your way out >> as a guy, how do you find your way out of that? How do you how do you take a of that? How do you how do you take a of that? How do you how do you take a step to move toward friendship?

step to move toward friendship? step to move toward friendship? >> Yeah. I think I think for for me I've >> Yeah. I think I think for for me I've >> Yeah. I think I think for for me I've I've noticed in all my conversations I've noticed in all my conversations I've noticed in all my conversations across the years is you got to discover across the years is you got to discover across the years is you got to discover that need first and foremost. It's like that need first and foremost. It's like that need first and foremost. It's like if you don't if I could tell you about if you don't if I could tell you about if you don't if I could tell you about your need of friends or we could read a your need of friends or we could read a your need of friends or we could read a verse about our need for friends, but verse about our need for friends, but verse about our need for friends, but until we realize that it's actually a until we realize that it's actually a until we realize that it's actually a spot that's a that's a like a tangible spot that's a that's a like a tangible spot that's a that's a like a tangible need for us, we'll probably do very need for us, we'll probably do very need for us, we'll probably do very little about it. You know, our our drive little about it. You know, our our drive little about it. You know, our our drive for success, our drive to achieve, our for success, our drive to achieve, our for success, our drive to achieve, our drive to work can trump all of these drive to work can trump all of these drive to work can trump all of these spaces of need inside of us. And so I spaces of need inside of us. And so I spaces of need inside of us. And so I think the the biggest piece is is think the the biggest piece is is think the the biggest piece is is reminding us like our of our desperate reminding us like our of our desperate reminding us like our of our desperate need for friendship, of our desperate need for friendship, of our desperate need for friendship, of our desperate need for relationship, for a voice to to need for relationship, for a voice to to need for relationship, for a voice to to listen and for wisdom that we need to listen and for wisdom that we need to listen and for wisdom that we need to hear all throughout life, not just in hear all throughout life, not just in hear all throughout life, not just in times of need, but in times of success times of need, but in times of success times of need, but in times of success and every space in between us to make and every space in between us to make and every space in between us to make ourselves aware of that need deep in our ourselves aware of that need deep in our ourselves aware of that need deep in our soul. soul. soul. >> Yeah. I was we we're talking about this >> Yeah. I was we we're talking about this >> Yeah. I was we we're talking about this yesterday, this research study that was yesterday, this research study that was yesterday, this research study that was done years ago by a guy named Bruce done years ago by a guy named Bruce done years ago by a guy named Bruce Alexander about the the power of Alexander about the the power of Alexander about the the power of friendship and community to combat friendship and community to combat friendship and community to combat mental health issues and addiction. mental health issues and addiction. mental health issues and addiction. >> And he cited all the studies that all of >> And he cited all the studies that all of >> And he cited all the studies that all of us heard about. You know, you put a rat us heard about. You know, you put a rat us heard about. You know, you put a rat in a cage, you put water in one bottle in a cage, you put water in one bottle in a cage, you put water in one bottle and then drug lace water the other and then drug lace water the other and then drug lace water the other bottle and the rat will drink the drug bottle and the rat will drink the drug bottle and the rat will drink the drug lace water till he dies.

lace water till he dies. lace water till he dies. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And just talk about the power of >> And just talk about the power of >> And just talk about the power of addiction. And Bruce Alexander said that addiction. And Bruce Alexander said that addiction. And Bruce Alexander said that that experiment is all wrong because that experiment is all wrong because that experiment is all wrong because rats are social animals. So put a bunch rats are social animals. So put a bunch rats are social animals. So put a bunch of rats in the cage, put some play toys of rats in the cage, put some play toys of rats in the cage, put some play toys and see and and the rats in those and see and and the rats in those and see and and the rats in those environments didn't go to the drug laced environments didn't go to the drug laced environments didn't go to the drug laced water. They didn't get addicted. They water. They didn't get addicted. They water. They didn't get addicted. They lived in community. And so he his sort lived in community. And so he his sort lived in community. And so he his sort of like outcome or conclusion from that of like outcome or conclusion from that of like outcome or conclusion from that project was that project was that project was that >> in healthy community your tendency >> in healthy community your tendency >> in healthy community your tendency toward addiction, toward depression, toward addiction, toward depression, toward addiction, toward depression, toward anxiety is reduced um because we toward anxiety is reduced um because we toward anxiety is reduced um because we were social. We were meant to be in were social. We were meant to be in were social. We were meant to be in community. And it it sort of gave me community. And it it sort of gave me community. And it it sort of gave me like the why of friendship. Like this like the why of friendship. Like this like the why of friendship. Like this this is what the Bible explains about this is what the Bible explains about this is what the Bible explains about us. this is what research shows us, but us. this is what research shows us, but us. this is what research shows us, but sometimes we don't know. And I think for sometimes we don't know. And I think for sometimes we don't know. And I think for a lot of people when they think about I a lot of people when they think about I a lot of people when they think about I don't have a really good friend. Um, don't have a really good friend. Um, don't have a really good friend. Um, it's hard to say that because then it's hard to say that because then it's hard to say that because then you're like, well, I feel like a loser. you're like, well, I feel like a loser. you're like, well, I feel like a loser. >> I feel like no one likes me. >> I feel like no one likes me. >> I feel like no one likes me. >> So like, how do you break out? How do >> So like, how do you break out? How do >> So like, how do you break out? How do you break out of that? That that feeling you break out of that? That that feeling you break out of that? That that feeling of like, I know I need this. of like, I know I need this. of like, I know I need this. >> Um, I know there are people around, but >> Um, I know there are people around, but >> Um, I know there are people around, but >> how do I break through that sense of >> how do I break through that sense of >> how do I break through that sense of shame?

shame? shame? >> Yeah. I think practically speaking, uh, >> Yeah. I think practically speaking, uh, >> Yeah. I think practically speaking, uh, in culture, culture says, "Well, well, in culture, culture says, "Well, well, in culture, culture says, "Well, well, well, you deserve friendships or if you well, you deserve friendships or if you well, you deserve friendships or if you need a friendship, then then almost like need a friendship, then then almost like need a friendship, then then almost like let it come to you." And I I think one let it come to you." And I I think one let it come to you." And I I think one of the one of the things I've learned of the one of the things I've learned of the one of the things I've learned over the years is is that can that can over the years is is that can that can over the years is is that can that can be like um like your own self-fulfilling be like um like your own self-fulfilling be like um like your own self-fulfilling lie, so to speak. It's like it's like lie, so to speak. It's like it's like lie, so to speak. It's like it's like this thing that will keep you from this thing that will keep you from this thing that will keep you from friendship. And so, one of the practical friendship. And so, one of the practical friendship. And so, one of the practical ways that I like to remind myself on a ways that I like to remind myself on a ways that I like to remind myself on a weekly basis is what's happening in my weekly basis is what's happening in my weekly basis is what's happening in my friend's life? How am I pursuing friend's life? How am I pursuing friend's life? How am I pursuing friendship? friendship? friendship? >> That's good. How am I looking to to >> That's good. How am I looking to to >> That's good. How am I looking to to invest? Not just wait to be invested in invest? Not just wait to be invested in invest? Not just wait to be invested in or wait for the phone call. Nobody or wait for the phone call. Nobody or wait for the phone call. Nobody texted me this week. Nobody called me texted me this week. Nobody called me texted me this week. Nobody called me this week. I I'm not going to say that. this week. I I'm not going to say that. this week. I I'm not going to say that. I'm going to say who who did I call, who I'm going to say who who did I call, who I'm going to say who who did I call, who did I text, and who in my friendship did I text, and who in my friendship did I text, and who in my friendship circle am I am I caring for? And in the circle am I am I caring for? And in the circle am I am I caring for? And in the midst of reaching out in the midst of uh midst of reaching out in the midst of uh midst of reaching out in the midst of uh caring for somebody, I'm always cared caring for somebody, I'm always cared caring for somebody, I'm always cared for in return. And so I want to make it for in return. And so I want to make it for in return. And so I want to make it a life motto that I pursued the a life motto that I pursued the a life motto that I pursued the relationships in my life. Not that I relationships in my life. Not that I relationships in my life. Not that I conquered them, but but that I I've made conquered them, but but that I I've made conquered them, but but that I I've made myself available to them. And in so myself available to them. And in so myself available to them. And in so doing, my friends make themselves doing, my friends make themselves doing, my friends make themselves available to me and and there's this available to me and and there's this available to me and and there's this beautiful exchange and a relationship beautiful exchange and a relationship beautiful exchange and a relationship where both are cared for.

where both are cared for. where both are cared for. >> Yeah. So, let's talk about uh when we >> Yeah. So, let's talk about uh when we >> Yeah. So, let's talk about uh when we first met and talk about just the first met and talk about just the first met and talk about just the formation of a friendship and then maybe formation of a friendship and then maybe formation of a friendship and then maybe some of the tests of friendship and then some of the tests of friendship and then some of the tests of friendship and then some of the ways that some of the ways that some of the ways that >> our friendship move forward and pass >> our friendship move forward and pass >> our friendship move forward and pass through some of those struggles because through some of those struggles because through some of those struggles because I think for people they're like, okay, I think for people they're like, okay, I think for people they're like, okay, well, I have a friend, but maybe we're well, I have a friend, but maybe we're well, I have a friend, but maybe we're not as close as we want to be, but we not as close as we want to be, but we not as close as we want to be, but we don't know how to get to the next step. don't know how to get to the next step. don't know how to get to the next step. Yeah. So, so talk about the the first Yeah. So, so talk about the the first Yeah. So, so talk about the the first time we met. time we met. time we met. >> Yeah, I I can remember um getting >> Yeah, I I can remember um getting >> Yeah, I I can remember um getting together with you. You might have a together with you. You might have a together with you. You might have a different story, but I remember different story, but I remember different story, but I remember >> I want to hear your version. [laughter] >> I want to hear your version. [laughter] >> I want to hear your version. [laughter] >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I remember coming to your house uh with >> I remember coming to your house uh with >> I remember coming to your house uh with Priya and I can remember uh sitting down Priya and I can remember uh sitting down Priya and I can remember uh sitting down for what was I thought could going to be for what was I thought could going to be for what was I thought could going to be like an interview for a job. like an interview for a job. like an interview for a job. >> It was >> It was >> It was >> Yeah. It didn't feel like it. Uh in the >> Yeah. It didn't feel like it. Uh in the >> Yeah. It didn't feel like it. Uh in the moment it felt like meeting with moment it felt like meeting with moment it felt like meeting with friends, you know. I remember uh friends, you know. I remember uh friends, you know. I remember uh obviously our cultures are very obviously our cultures are very obviously our cultures are very opposite. Um I learned a little bit opposite. Um I learned a little bit opposite. Um I learned a little bit about what Americans eat for for a about what Americans eat for for a about what Americans eat for for a dinner, a casserole. And I didn't even dinner, a casserole. And I didn't even dinner, a casserole. And I didn't even know what a casserole was. know what a casserole was. know what a casserole was. >> German Americans Menanite Midwestern. >> German Americans Menanite Midwestern. >> German Americans Menanite Midwestern. [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> I remember I remember um thinking to >> I remember I remember um thinking to >> I remember I remember um thinking to myself, "Wow, I can't wait till you try myself, "Wow, I can't wait till you try myself, "Wow, I can't wait till you try some of my food. [laughter] It's going some of my food. [laughter] It's going some of my food. [laughter] It's going to be crazy." Um and I remember bringing to be crazy." Um and I remember bringing to be crazy." Um and I remember bringing a young baby into our house and you had a young baby into our house and you had a young baby into our house and you had you had two sons at that point and they you had two sons at that point and they you had two sons at that point and they were a little bit older. just watching were a little bit older. just watching were a little bit older. just watching the way that you guys parented your sons the way that you guys parented your sons the way that you guys parented your sons and just thinking about and reflecting and just thinking about and reflecting and just thinking about and reflecting on how we're parenting our daughter and on how we're parenting our daughter and on how we're parenting our daughter and watching the way you and Suzanne cared watching the way you and Suzanne cared watching the way you and Suzanne cared for each other and kind of put together for each other and kind of put together for each other and kind of put together that meal and just thinking through what that meal and just thinking through what that meal and just thinking through what that looks like for myself and my wife that looks like for myself and my wife that looks like for myself and my wife as well, Priya, and just being like in as well, Priya, and just being like in as well, Priya, and just being like in this space of like, wow, it's I I wonder

this space of like, wow, it's I I wonder this space of like, wow, it's I I wonder what this could turn into. There seems what this could turn into. There seems what this could turn into. There seems to be a lot of like similarities in the to be a lot of like similarities in the to be a lot of like similarities in the midst of the differences. And this could midst of the differences. And this could midst of the differences. And this could be like a really fun space to grow up be like a really fun space to grow up be like a really fun space to grow up and a really fun space to to dive into and a really fun space to to dive into and a really fun space to to dive into trust somebody in your life because my trust somebody in your life because my trust somebody in your life because my history of friendships were positive and history of friendships were positive and history of friendships were positive and negative. There were reasons to trust negative. There were reasons to trust negative. There were reasons to trust and there were reasons to not trust. And and there were reasons to not trust. And and there were reasons to not trust. And we were in the space of being able to we were in the space of being able to we were in the space of being able to say we we could we could do this. This say we we could we could do this. This say we we could we could do this. This could be an amazing piece. could be an amazing piece. could be an amazing piece. >> Yeah. So you you you pointed something >> Yeah. So you you you pointed something >> Yeah. So you you you pointed something out that friendship itself is a risk. out that friendship itself is a risk. out that friendship itself is a risk. It's a risk for you to open up your home It's a risk for you to open up your home It's a risk for you to open up your home and invite someone over. It could get and invite someone over. It could get and invite someone over. It could get really weird. really weird. really weird. >> It's a risk to try to open up to someone >> It's a risk to try to open up to someone >> It's a risk to try to open up to someone when you've been burnt by other people. when you've been burnt by other people. when you've been burnt by other people. >> So, um I remember distinctly that night >> So, um I remember distinctly that night >> So, um I remember distinctly that night when you guys left, I said to my wife, when you guys left, I said to my wife, when you guys left, I said to my wife, "Hey, we're going to be friends with "Hey, we're going to be friends with "Hey, we're going to be friends with them for the rest of our life." It just them for the rest of our life." It just them for the rest of our life." It just knew just there was a just a connection knew just there was a just a connection knew just there was a just a connection there. That doesn't happen all the time, there. That doesn't happen all the time, there. That doesn't happen all the time, but it happened when we met. but it happened when we met. but it happened when we met. >> Um but I want to talk about risks >> Um but I want to talk about risks >> Um but I want to talk about risks because you said, "Hey, before you came because you said, "Hey, before you came because you said, "Hey, before you came to that dinner, to that dinner, to that dinner, >> um you're in your late 20s at the time." >> um you're in your late 20s at the time." >> um you're in your late 20s at the time." >> Yeah. Yeah. So you've had a couple of >> Yeah. Yeah. So you've had a couple of >> Yeah. Yeah. So you've had a couple of friendships that have gone well and some friendships that have gone well and some friendships that have gone well and some that haven't gone well. So talk about that haven't gone well. So talk about that haven't gone well. So talk about how how do you get past the thing like I how how do you get past the thing like I how how do you get past the thing like I tried friendship and that person tried friendship and that person tried friendship and that person betrayed me or stabbed me in the back. I betrayed me or stabbed me in the back. I betrayed me or stabbed me in the back. I don't want to try. Like tell me about don't want to try. Like tell me about don't want to try. Like tell me about that process for you. Yeah.

that process for you. Yeah. that process for you. Yeah. >> Of working through some of the hurts to >> Of working through some of the hurts to >> Of working through some of the hurts to try again. try again. try again. >> Yeah. There there are there were so many >> Yeah. There there are there were so many >> Yeah. There there are there were so many things in my life that gave me like a things in my life that gave me like a things in my life that gave me like a confidence and a stability. confidence and a stability. confidence and a stability. >> Um almost a confidence and a stability >> Um almost a confidence and a stability >> Um almost a confidence and a stability that made me believe I didn't need that made me believe I didn't need that made me believe I didn't need friendship. Like I had I had a good job. friendship. Like I had I had a good job. friendship. Like I had I had a good job. >> Okay. And I I felt successful in in what >> Okay. And I I felt successful in in what >> Okay. And I I felt successful in in what I could provide for my family. I I have I could provide for my family. I I have I could provide for my family. I I have a a strong relationship with my wife and a a strong relationship with my wife and a a strong relationship with my wife and that gave me a certain confidence, a that gave me a certain confidence, a that gave me a certain confidence, a level of like, wow, uh like level of like, wow, uh like level of like, wow, uh like accomplishment. accomplishment. accomplishment. >> Um I had a I have a child. I'm a dad >> Um I had a I have a child. I'm a dad >> Um I had a I have a child. I'm a dad now. And that's gave me a sense of now. And that's gave me a sense of now. And that's gave me a sense of accomplishment. I had peripheral friends accomplishment. I had peripheral friends accomplishment. I had peripheral friends that that made me feel good enough. And that that made me feel good enough. And that that made me feel good enough. And so in the midst of some of the so in the midst of some of the so in the midst of some of the disappointments in friendship, you know, disappointments in friendship, you know, disappointments in friendship, you know, you can almost lull yourself into a you can almost lull yourself into a you can almost lull yourself into a space where it's like it's good enough. space where it's like it's good enough. space where it's like it's good enough. um I'm I'm going to be just okay. Um and um I'm I'm going to be just okay. Um and um I'm I'm going to be just okay. Um and until you get to that space where it's until you get to that space where it's until you get to that space where it's like, I want to open up about this area like, I want to open up about this area like, I want to open up about this area in my life. I I wonder what he did with in my life. I I wonder what he did with in my life. I I wonder what he did with this thing in my life. I wonder how he this thing in my life. I wonder how he this thing in my life. I wonder how he walked through. And that that like walked through. And that that like walked through. And that that like nagging feeling can drive you to to nagging feeling can drive you to to nagging feeling can drive you to to break through that next level and say, break through that next level and say, break through that next level and say, "Hey, what'd you do with this?"

"Hey, what'd you do with this?" "Hey, what'd you do with this?" >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> And then you realize you're not crazy or >> And then you realize you're not crazy or >> And then you realize you're not crazy or you're not abnormal. You're just like you're not abnormal. You're just like you're not abnormal. You're just like everybody else. And that sort of like everybody else. And that sort of like everybody else. And that sort of like ability to trust somebody again or to ability to trust somebody again or to ability to trust somebody again or to take that risk and actually breaking take that risk and actually breaking take that risk and actually breaking through can help you go to that next through can help you go to that next through can help you go to that next level. level. level. >> So, so you experienced uh some >> So, so you experienced uh some >> So, so you experienced uh some friendships before that that where trust friendships before that that where trust friendships before that that where trust was violated where so tell me more about was violated where so tell me more about was violated where so tell me more about not the specifics but just how it felt not the specifics but just how it felt not the specifics but just how it felt to go to go to go >> I tried that. >> I tried that. >> I tried that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it actually created more pain in my >> And it actually created more pain in my >> And it actually created more pain in my life. I'm not sure if it's worth it life. I'm not sure if it's worth it life. I'm not sure if it's worth it again. again. again. >> Yeah. I I have like a a view of life >> Yeah. I I have like a a view of life >> Yeah. I I have like a a view of life that's more like a rosecolored glasses, that's more like a rosecolored glasses, that's more like a rosecolored glasses, you know, glass half full you know, glass half full you know, glass half full >> sort of mentality. And so >> sort of mentality. And so >> sort of mentality. And so >> we share that. [laughter] >> we share that. [laughter] >> we share that. [laughter] >> I'll trust I'll trust most people. >> I'll trust I'll trust most people. >> I'll trust I'll trust most people. >> And so in the midst of uh one of the >> And so in the midst of uh one of the >> And so in the midst of uh one of the most significant ones that I I'm most significant ones that I I'm most significant ones that I I'm thinking about right now, um when I thinking about right now, um when I thinking about right now, um when I discovered that this friend had violated discovered that this friend had violated discovered that this friend had violated my trust, it it was like I got robbed, my trust, it it was like I got robbed, my trust, it it was like I got robbed, so to speak. That that feeling like so to speak. That that feeling like so to speak. That that feeling like somebody was in your home. uh somebody somebody was in your home. uh somebody somebody was in your home. uh somebody was it took something from you and it's was it took something from you and it's was it took something from you and it's not coming back. Like you got to deal not coming back. Like you got to deal not coming back. Like you got to deal with the reality of of a broken with the reality of of a broken with the reality of of a broken friendship and a broken relationship and friendship and a broken relationship and friendship and a broken relationship and that and that particular grief took me a that and that particular grief took me a that and that particular grief took me a couple years to to get through. It's couple years to to get through. It's couple years to to get through. It's almost as if I I would say I'll I'll almost as if I I would say I'll I'll almost as if I I would say I'll I'll never let another uh person back in that never let another uh person back in that never let another uh person back in that space. I'll never let another friend space. I'll never let another friend space. I'll never let another friend back in that space. You know what? I'm back in that space. You know what? I'm back in that space. You know what? I'm actually good with nobody being close actually good with nobody being close actually good with nobody being close like that again. And um and that's like that again. And um and that's like that again. And um and that's something that that really I had to something that that really I had to something that that really I had to accept. That's something that I had to accept. That's something that I had to accept. That's something that I had to process. It was a a feeling at that

process. It was a a feeling at that process. It was a a feeling at that moment until until I realized that there moment until until I realized that there moment until until I realized that there that person didn't represent every that person didn't represent every that person didn't represent every person. That person doesn't have to person. That person doesn't have to person. That person doesn't have to define every single, you know, male define every single, you know, male define every single, you know, male relationship that I'm going to have in relationship that I'm going to have in relationship that I'm going to have in my future. And when you meet when you my future. And when you meet when you my future. And when you meet when you meet good people, you should you should meet good people, you should you should meet good people, you should you should let that be a signal that that drives let that be a signal that that drives let that be a signal that that drives you towards deeper questions. And I and you towards deeper questions. And I and you towards deeper questions. And I and I and I met a good person in that. And I and I met a good person in that. And I and I met a good person in that. And I'm glad the Lord allowed that to happen I'm glad the Lord allowed that to happen I'm glad the Lord allowed that to happen in my life. in my life. in my life. >> Yeah. I I think a lot of people in in >> Yeah. I I think a lot of people in in >> Yeah. I I think a lot of people in in life end up in that place where you were life end up in that place where you were life end up in that place where you were in and where I was initially where in and where I was initially where in and where I was initially where you're like you have a lot of of what you're like you have a lot of of what you're like you have a lot of of what you might call companions. They're you might call companions. They're you might call companions. They're friends, but they're not deep friends, friends, but they're not deep friends, friends, but they're not deep friends, close friends, and you're not really close friends, and you're not really close friends, and you're not really going to disclose what you really think going to disclose what you really think going to disclose what you really think or feel. You're not going to talk about or feel. You're not going to talk about or feel. You're not going to talk about your greatest joys, disappointments, your greatest joys, disappointments, your greatest joys, disappointments, fears, hopes, fears, hopes, fears, hopes, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> weaknesses. Um, and you think you'll be >> weaknesses. Um, and you think you'll be >> weaknesses. Um, and you think you'll be okay for a while, but then you realize okay for a while, but then you realize okay for a while, but then you realize when life happens. when life happens. when life happens. >> Solomon says, "A man of many companions >> Solomon says, "A man of many companions >> Solomon says, "A man of many companions comes to ruin, comes to ruin, comes to ruin, >> but there's a friend that sticks closer >> but there's a friend that sticks closer >> but there's a friend that sticks closer than a brother." It's like a It's like than a brother." It's like a It's like than a brother." It's like a It's like an invitation. You can live with an invitation. You can live with an invitation. You can live with everyone like this, or you can invite a everyone like this, or you can invite a everyone like this, or you can invite a few people close.

few people close. few people close. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, all right. So, I've never asked you >> So, all right. So, I've never asked you >> So, all right. So, I've never asked you this question, so we'll see how this this question, so we'll see how this this question, so we'll see how this goes. So, when was the first time that goes. So, when was the first time that goes. So, when was the first time that you thought, "Oh, I'm going to tell Doug you thought, "Oh, I'm going to tell Doug you thought, "Oh, I'm going to tell Doug something about me that that's a something about me that that's a something about me that that's a weakness or an insecurity or that's weakness or an insecurity or that's weakness or an insecurity or that's going to make me vulnerable like Yeah. going to make me vulnerable like Yeah. going to make me vulnerable like Yeah. Like, how did you decide when to do it?" Like, how did you decide when to do it?" Like, how did you decide when to do it?" >> Yeah. I'm probably I'm probably maybe >> Yeah. I'm probably I'm probably maybe >> Yeah. I'm probably I'm probably maybe maybe a little different in regards to maybe a little different in regards to maybe a little different in regards to what drives that in me. It typically for what drives that in me. It typically for what drives that in me. It typically for me it's conviction. me it's conviction. me it's conviction. >> You know, it's like you have that >> You know, it's like you have that >> You know, it's like you have that conversation with your spouse, you have conversation with your spouse, you have conversation with your spouse, you have that conversation with a with a with a a that conversation with a with a with a a that conversation with a with a with a a workplace friend or you have that moment workplace friend or you have that moment workplace friend or you have that moment you're like, "Ah, that's not right." But you're like, "Ah, that's not right." But you're like, "Ah, that's not right." But I don't know don't know exactly what to I don't know don't know exactly what to I don't know don't know exactly what to do about it. Like you said earlier in in do about it. Like you said earlier in in do about it. Like you said earlier in in our talk, there's not a lot of books our talk, there's not a lot of books our talk, there's not a lot of books written about friendship. There are written about friendship. There are written about friendship. There are some, but not tons. And so where do you some, but not tons. And so where do you some, but not tons. And so where do you go for the index on what do you do when go for the index on what do you do when go for the index on what do you do when this happens? Who do you ask? Do you this happens? Who do you ask? Do you this happens? Who do you ask? Do you call a therapist, which you could uh do call a therapist, which you could uh do call a therapist, which you could uh do you call like an older friend that's a you call like an older friend that's a you call like an older friend that's a Christian longer than you? And what you Christian longer than you? And what you Christian longer than you? And what you could, but in so many ways, the Lord's could, but in so many ways, the Lord's could, but in so many ways, the Lord's placed around us friends that that we placed around us friends that that we placed around us friends that that we could lean on in these moments. And could lean on in these moments. And could lean on in these moments. And that's that's what it was like for me. that's that's what it was like for me. that's that's what it was like for me. There was there was a a moment a There was there was a a moment a There was there was a a moment a circumstance I sensed the conviction of circumstance I sensed the conviction of circumstance I sensed the conviction of God to go deeper. Um the lie in my head God to go deeper. Um the lie in my head God to go deeper. Um the lie in my head was well nobody will understand.

was well nobody will understand. was well nobody will understand. >> Um and I and I knew that was that was >> Um and I and I knew that was that was >> Um and I and I knew that was that was the enemy's voice. the enemy's voice. the enemy's voice. >> And and so I sent a text and I was like >> And and so I sent a text and I was like >> And and so I sent a text and I was like hey man we need to talk and I'm like hey man we need to talk and I'm like hey man we need to talk and I'm like >> that's how you do it. Send a text deep >> that's how you do it. Send a text deep >> that's how you do it. Send a text deep going deep and when if he responds I'll going deep and when if he responds I'll going deep and when if he responds I'll I'll I'll do it. And I remember thinking I'll I'll do it. And I remember thinking I'll I'll do it. And I remember thinking uh when you called back like hey I'd uh when you called back like hey I'd uh when you called back like hey I'd like to talk today. And that was a like to talk today. And that was a like to talk today. And that was a marker for me to say I I'm I'm I have to marker for me to say I I'm I'm I have to marker for me to say I I'm I'm I have to talk about it now. And so that that talk about it now. And so that that talk about it now. And so that that really set the foundation of the stage really set the foundation of the stage really set the foundation of the stage uh for for me to trust you at a level uh for for me to trust you at a level uh for for me to trust you at a level that was beyond like um an acquaintance that was beyond like um an acquaintance that was beyond like um an acquaintance or a social friend or a workplace or a social friend or a workplace or a social friend or a workplace friend. It it was it was moving towards friend. It it was it was moving towards friend. It it was it was moving towards like this like a circle of people, a like this like a circle of people, a like this like a circle of people, a circle of friendship that would be like circle of friendship that would be like circle of friendship that would be like an inner ring for me to be able to an inner ring for me to be able to an inner ring for me to be able to navigate life beyond navigate life beyond navigate life beyond >> what could even be explained. like >> what could even be explained. like >> what could even be explained. like brothers, right? brothers, right? brothers, right? >> And not even friends. >> And not even friends. >> And not even friends. >> So, so tell me about like how many >> So, so tell me about like how many >> So, so tell me about like how many friends can a person have? Like what is friends can a person have? Like what is friends can a person have? Like what is the capacity to have? You know, how many the capacity to have? You know, how many the capacity to have? You know, how many close friends can a person have? close friends can a person have? close friends can a person have? >> Yeah, it's funny like I I want to say as >> Yeah, it's funny like I I want to say as >> Yeah, it's funny like I I want to say as many as you want. But reality is that many as you want. But reality is that many as you want. But reality is that you don't have that much time in a in a you don't have that much time in a in a you don't have that much time in a in a given day. You know, the type of friend given day. You know, the type of friend given day. You know, the type of friend that I'm talking about that that inner that I'm talking about that that inner that I'm talking about that that inner circle for me, it can't go past three or circle for me, it can't go past three or circle for me, it can't go past three or four because I'm talking about a weekly four because I'm talking about a weekly four because I'm talking about a weekly contact with somebody that is dependent contact with somebody that is dependent contact with somebody that is dependent to a certain level on on on a to a certain level on on on a to a certain level on on on a relationship with you. Like when when relationship with you. Like when when relationship with you. Like when when there's a distance, you you sense it.

there's a distance, you you sense it. there's a distance, you you sense it. You feel it. When there is like a a You feel it. When there is like a a You feel it. When there is like a a sense of a lack of responsiveness, you sense of a lack of responsiveness, you sense of a lack of responsiveness, you feel it. when when there's a sense of feel it. when when there's a sense of feel it. when when there's a sense of like um uh that that that space that you like um uh that that that space that you like um uh that that that space that you want to like add a lie to it, you know, want to like add a lie to it, you know, want to like add a lie to it, you know, you know there's a problem. And so for you know there's a problem. And so for you know there's a problem. And so for for me, the reason why it's just three for me, the reason why it's just three for me, the reason why it's just three or four is because of the quality of or four is because of the quality of or four is because of the quality of friendship. Not just because I don't friendship. Not just because I don't friendship. Not just because I don't want more friends or that maybe I could want more friends or that maybe I could want more friends or that maybe I could do it to a certain level, but if I want do it to a certain level, but if I want do it to a certain level, but if I want to have a a a quality friend, if I want to have a a a quality friend, if I want to have a a a quality friend, if I want to be called a quality friend, that I to be called a quality friend, that I to be called a quality friend, that I need to make the type of weekly need to make the type of weekly need to make the type of weekly investment, a responsive sort of investment, a responsive sort of investment, a responsive sort of relationship, a a person who truly relationship, a a person who truly relationship, a a person who truly listens and not is not just double listens and not is not just double listens and not is not just double tasking. I'm listening to my friend, but tasking. I'm listening to my friend, but tasking. I'm listening to my friend, but I'm also scrolling on on the internet or I'm also scrolling on on the internet or I'm also scrolling on on the internet or on social media. I'm actually listening on social media. I'm actually listening on social media. I'm actually listening and caring. When I'm when you're going and caring. When I'm when you're going and caring. When I'm when you're going through a hard time, I'm there with you. through a hard time, I'm there with you. through a hard time, I'm there with you. Not not just sending you a text or Not not just sending you a text or Not not just sending you a text or sending you a gift card, but I'm I'm sending you a gift card, but I'm I'm sending you a gift card, but I'm I'm going to send you time where we can going to send you time where we can going to send you time where we can spend together. spend together. spend together. >> Okay. So, let's talk about that like >> Okay. So, let's talk about that like >> Okay. So, let's talk about that like just the intentional process of of just the intentional process of of just the intentional process of of spending time. So, you take a risk, you spending time. So, you take a risk, you spending time. So, you take a risk, you break through the break through the break through the >> if I disclose this, can I trust this >> if I disclose this, can I trust this >> if I disclose this, can I trust this person? Can we connect? Is is it going person? Can we connect? Is is it going person? Can we connect? Is is it going to be mutual? Are we going to share life to be mutual? Are we going to share life to be mutual? Are we going to share life together? Like you go through that together? Like you go through that together? Like you go through that process.

process. process. >> So, let's say the friendship is going. >> So, let's say the friendship is going. >> So, let's say the friendship is going. >> How do you prioritize it? Like do you >> How do you prioritize it? Like do you >> How do you prioritize it? Like do you schedule things on a calendar? Like how schedule things on a calendar? Like how schedule things on a calendar? Like how do you how do you how do you make sure do you how do you how do you make sure do you how do you how do you make sure that we're connected on a weekly basis that we're connected on a weekly basis that we're connected on a weekly basis with those one, two, three, maybe four with those one, two, three, maybe four with those one, two, three, maybe four people? people? people? >> Yeah, my my personality if I don't >> Yeah, my my personality if I don't >> Yeah, my my personality if I don't schedule it, it's not going to happen. schedule it, it's not going to happen. schedule it, it's not going to happen. You know, I know that sounds like kind You know, I know that sounds like kind You know, I know that sounds like kind of cringey or maybe too too stuffy, but of cringey or maybe too too stuffy, but of cringey or maybe too too stuffy, but if I don't put something somewhere, it's if I don't put something somewhere, it's if I don't put something somewhere, it's just never going to happen. Some people just never going to happen. Some people just never going to happen. Some people might say it's okay organically I might say it's okay organically I might say it's okay organically I connect with this person, that's great. connect with this person, that's great. connect with this person, that's great. >> But just my pace of life and my my >> But just my pace of life and my my >> But just my pace of life and my my season of life, if I don't put it down season of life, if I don't put it down season of life, if I don't put it down somewhere, it's not going to happen. And somewhere, it's not going to happen. And somewhere, it's not going to happen. And so a lot of times we find a common so a lot of times we find a common so a lot of times we find a common hobby. Uh and that's what's worked for hobby. Uh and that's what's worked for hobby. Uh and that's what's worked for us over the years is we've got this this us over the years is we've got this this us over the years is we've got this this thing that we like to do together. And thing that we like to do together. And thing that we like to do together. And that thing will drive a weekly that thing will drive a weekly that thing will drive a weekly connection where we're able to touch connection where we're able to touch connection where we're able to touch base on base on base on >> we're supposed to be working out right >> we're supposed to be working out right >> we're supposed to be working out right now. now. now. >> Actually, we are [laughter] >> Actually, we are [laughter] >> Actually, we are [laughter] >> one of the friends is actually >> one of the friends is actually >> one of the friends is actually >> working out without us. >> working out without us. >> working out without us. >> Yes. But but the point is is that that >> Yes. But but the point is is that that >> Yes. But but the point is is that that place is like a hub where where if we do place is like a hub where where if we do place is like a hub where where if we do lose touch or if something does happen, lose touch or if something does happen, lose touch or if something does happen, we know we're going to meet there. We we know we're going to meet there. We we know we're going to meet there. We know that we're going to have a a space know that we're going to have a a space know that we're going to have a a space to to talk there. And if we're not, to to talk there. And if we're not, to to talk there. And if we're not, we're going to talk about why we missed we're going to talk about why we missed we're going to talk about why we missed so that next week it's it's more of a a so that next week it's it's more of a a so that next week it's it's more of a a whole whole space. And more broadly whole whole space. And more broadly whole whole space. And more broadly speaking, you know, putting on the speaking, you know, putting on the speaking, you know, putting on the calendar spaces to vacation together or calendar spaces to vacation together or calendar spaces to vacation together or spaces to get away for the weekend spaces to get away for the weekend spaces to get away for the weekend together. One of my most favorite times together. One of my most favorite times together. One of my most favorite times of the year is thinking about our our of the year is thinking about our our of the year is thinking about our our guys retreat where we're going to get a guys retreat where we're going to get a guys retreat where we're going to get a couple of guys together and we're going couple of guys together and we're going couple of guys together and we're going to hang out for a couple days around a to hang out for a couple days around a to hang out for a couple days around a table, you know, chatting around a lake table, you know, chatting around a lake table, you know, chatting around a lake or around some activity that drives or around some activity that drives or around some activity that drives healthy whole conversations where we can

healthy whole conversations where we can healthy whole conversations where we can expose the parts of our life that need expose the parts of our life that need expose the parts of our life that need to be talked about as well as laugh to be talked about as well as laugh to be talked about as well as laugh uncontrollably together and and just uncontrollably together and and just uncontrollably together and and just enjoy the seasons that we're in. enjoy the seasons that we're in. enjoy the seasons that we're in. >> Yeah, that's good. I I uh when I think >> Yeah, that's good. I I uh when I think >> Yeah, that's good. I I uh when I think about scheduling and calendaring about scheduling and calendaring about scheduling and calendaring sometimes I'll I'll hear people talk sometimes I'll I'll hear people talk sometimes I'll I'll hear people talk about you know their desire to have about you know their desire to have about you know their desire to have friendships but the the friendship like friendships but the the friendship like friendships but the the friendship like where it is on their top five it doesn't where it is on their top five it doesn't where it is on their top five it doesn't hit their top five and so all the hit their top five and so all the hit their top five and so all the decision they make sort of crowded out decision they make sort of crowded out decision they make sort of crowded out so it's like I don't have time for that so it's like I don't have time for that so it's like I don't have time for that level of investment for a real friend level of investment for a real friend level of investment for a real friend but I feel lonely and I don't know why. but I feel lonely and I don't know why. but I feel lonely and I don't know why. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And um I've even talked to people who >> And um I've even talked to people who >> And um I've even talked to people who they'll move they'll move they'll move they'll move they'll move they'll move >> um >> um >> um >> for cheaper housing and North Carolina >> for cheaper housing and North Carolina >> for cheaper housing and North Carolina or a better job in California, or a better job in California, or a better job in California, >> but they almost never regard like, well, >> but they almost never regard like, well, >> but they almost never regard like, well, what friends will I leave behind? what friends will I leave behind? what friends will I leave behind? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, and then they move and they're like, >> Um, and then they move and they're like, >> Um, and then they move and they're like, >> I'm making more money. >> I'm making more money. >> I'm making more money. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I'm not with the people I really >> But I'm not with the people I really >> But I'm not with the people I really want to be with and I feel lonely. I want to be with and I feel lonely. I want to be with and I feel lonely. I don't know why I made the decision. So, don't know why I made the decision. So, don't know why I made the decision. So, >> prioritizing friendship as one of the >> prioritizing friendship as one of the >> prioritizing friendship as one of the top five or one of the top three top five or one of the top three top five or one of the top three >> um can change the way you live your >> um can change the way you live your >> um can change the way you live your life. you might like might like make life. you might like might like make life. you might like might like make less money, but you're enjoying the the less money, but you're enjoying the the less money, but you're enjoying the the life that you have with people life that you have with people life that you have with people >> and you're enjoying the the the >> and you're enjoying the the the >> and you're enjoying the the the longevity of a relationship with people.

longevity of a relationship with people. longevity of a relationship with people. So, So, So, >> so my kids um call you Uncle Ruben, your >> so my kids um call you Uncle Ruben, your >> so my kids um call you Uncle Ruben, your kids call me Uncle Doug because, kids call me Uncle Doug because, kids call me Uncle Doug because, >> you know, in South Florida where lots of >> you know, in South Florida where lots of >> you know, in South Florida where lots of people don't have intact families, you people don't have intact families, you people don't have intact families, you sort of create the type of vibe where sort of create the type of vibe where sort of create the type of vibe where there's three or four of our families there's three or four of our families there's three or four of our families that everyone's uncle and aunt and that everyone's uncle and aunt and that everyone's uncle and aunt and everyone's cousins and none of them look everyone's cousins and none of them look everyone's cousins and none of them look alike. alike. alike. >> Yeah. And uh it's an intentional desire >> Yeah. And uh it's an intentional desire >> Yeah. And uh it's an intentional desire to go we want to do life together with to go we want to do life together with to go we want to do life together with this person. this person. this person. >> So So talk talk about what does it have >> So So talk talk about what does it have >> So So talk talk about what does it have what does it mean to have like a vision what does it mean to have like a vision what does it mean to have like a vision >> of lifelong friendship with someone? >> of lifelong friendship with someone? >> of lifelong friendship with someone? >> That's good. Um let let me let me >> That's good. Um let let me let me >> That's good. Um let let me let me address or attack that in a certain way. address or attack that in a certain way. address or attack that in a certain way. So, I want I don't know. I got this So, I want I don't know. I got this So, I want I don't know. I got this picture in my mind of like the things picture in my mind of like the things picture in my mind of like the things that I would cancel a conversation with that I would cancel a conversation with that I would cancel a conversation with you over and and how many of those you over and and how many of those you over and and how many of those things that I would cancel for that things that I would cancel for that things that I would cancel for that conversation are going to be there for conversation are going to be there for conversation are going to be there for me in the times where I would need me in the times where I would need me in the times where I would need support or care or friendship. So often support or care or friendship. So often support or care or friendship. So often we have it like kind of prioritized in we have it like kind of prioritized in we have it like kind of prioritized in the wrong way the wrong way the wrong way >> where we should be thinking in in >> where we should be thinking in in >> where we should be thinking in in regards to longevity that I want to regards to longevity that I want to regards to longevity that I want to build or I want to invest in the things build or I want to invest in the things build or I want to invest in the things that are going to help support me so that are going to help support me so that are going to help support me so that I can be the best husband so that I that I can be the best husband so that I that I can be the best husband so that I can be the best employee so that I can can be the best employee so that I can can be the best employee so that I can be the best whatever it is that you are.

be the best whatever it is that you are. be the best whatever it is that you are. And and when you think like like that, And and when you think like like that, And and when you think like like that, you begin to place effort, time and uh you begin to place effort, time and uh you begin to place effort, time and uh stability and be a priority around stability and be a priority around stability and be a priority around around those particular things like our around those particular things like our around those particular things like our times together. Like the the when we times together. Like the the when we times together. Like the the when we have those things on the calendar, they have those things on the calendar, they have those things on the calendar, they are the things I look forward to in that are the things I look forward to in that are the things I look forward to in that particular week. particular week. particular week. >> My my first thought is I when I look at >> My my first thought is I when I look at >> My my first thought is I when I look at my week is is is I'm going to be able to my week is is is I'm going to be able to my week is is is I'm going to be able to talk to that friend talk to that friend talk to that friend >> where I'm going to have a lifegiving uh >> where I'm going to have a lifegiving uh >> where I'm going to have a lifegiving uh soul refreshing conversation with soul refreshing conversation with soul refreshing conversation with another brother in Christ. and and those another brother in Christ. and and those another brother in Christ. and and those are that's the way that I begin to plan are that's the way that I begin to plan are that's the way that I begin to plan towards the long term. I want to build towards the long term. I want to build towards the long term. I want to build here so that I can be the healthy man here so that I can be the healthy man here so that I can be the healthy man that I need to be to all these other that I need to be to all these other that I need to be to all these other places and stations in my life. places and stations in my life. places and stations in my life. >> All right. So, so we have to take a risk >> All right. So, so we have to take a risk >> All right. So, so we have to take a risk if we want to grow in friendship for if we want to grow in friendship for if we want to grow in friendship for sure. We have to prioritize and the the sure. We have to prioritize and the the sure. We have to prioritize and the the the time and the intentionality to go the time and the intentionality to go the time and the intentionality to go we're going to meet together. We're we're going to meet together. We're we're going to meet together. We're going to create these moments. opening going to create these moments. opening going to create these moments. opening your home together, meeting on a regular your home together, meeting on a regular your home together, meeting on a regular basis, uh go on adventures together, basis, uh go on adventures together, basis, uh go on adventures together, that all that kind of stuff. Um so, so that all that kind of stuff. Um so, so that all that kind of stuff. Um so, so bring people into the conversations that bring people into the conversations that bring people into the conversations that we have we have we have >> kind of like what do they sound like?

>> kind of like what do they sound like? >> kind of like what do they sound like? Are um is it encouragement? Is it Are um is it encouragement? Is it Are um is it encouragement? Is it challenge? What what's happening in all challenge? What what's happening in all challenge? What what's happening in all these conversations? these conversations? these conversations? >> You know, um I think I think a good >> You know, um I think I think a good >> You know, um I think I think a good friend, an attribute of a good friend is friend, an attribute of a good friend is friend, an attribute of a good friend is knowing how to be a good question asker. knowing how to be a good question asker. knowing how to be a good question asker. >> Um you're good at that. >> Um you're good at that. >> Um you're good at that. >> And so are you. And often, you know, the >> And so are you. And often, you know, the >> And so are you. And often, you know, the the the the things that prompt the best the the the things that prompt the best the the the things that prompt the best questions are when we're just talking questions are when we're just talking questions are when we're just talking and hanging out. Um, it could be around and hanging out. Um, it could be around and hanging out. Um, it could be around a a great chess game, uh, where I have a a great chess game, uh, where I have a a great chess game, uh, where I have the edge and all of a sudden the edge and all of a sudden the edge and all of a sudden >> all of a sudden you take that edge back >> all of a sudden you take that edge back >> all of a sudden you take that edge back and and it's like ah in that moment of and and it's like ah in that moment of and and it's like ah in that moment of frustration, you know, or maybe it's frustration, you know, or maybe it's frustration, you know, or maybe it's maybe it's a football game outside with maybe it's a football game outside with maybe it's a football game outside with the kids or a pickle ball game outside the kids or a pickle ball game outside the kids or a pickle ball game outside with the kids where afterwards where with the kids where afterwards where with the kids where afterwards where your inhibitions are are a bit like down your inhibitions are are a bit like down your inhibitions are are a bit like down and you're able to say, "Hey, let I want and you're able to say, "Hey, let I want and you're able to say, "Hey, let I want to go I want to go to that next level. I to go I want to go to that next level. I to go I want to go to that next level. I want to I want to have that conversation want to I want to have that conversation want to I want to have that conversation with you." And and so I I don't know with you." And and so I I don't know with you." And and so I I don't know like I I believe in the midst of of of a like I I believe in the midst of of of a like I I believe in the midst of of of a friend saying, "Hey, I want to can I ask friend saying, "Hey, I want to can I ask friend saying, "Hey, I want to can I ask you a question about what you just said? you a question about what you just said? you a question about what you just said? Hey, I watched your engagement with your Hey, I watched your engagement with your Hey, I watched your engagement with your son when we were playing that game. I son when we were playing that game. I son when we were playing that game. I want to uh tell me more about about want to uh tell me more about about want to uh tell me more about about that." And those questions kick open the that." And those questions kick open the that." And those questions kick open the door for the most authentic door for the most authentic door for the most authentic >> um self-aware >> um self-aware >> um self-aware >> moments that I've ever had in my life.

>> moments that I've ever had in my life. >> moments that I've ever had in my life. in both ways. I I I can recall distinct in both ways. I I I can recall distinct in both ways. I I I can recall distinct moments where I was I able to ask you moments where I was I able to ask you moments where I was I able to ask you the same question and and and I could the same question and and and I could the same question and and and I could see you doing that thing that you do see you doing that thing that you do see you doing that thing that you do when you're thinking. [laughter] when you're thinking. [laughter] when you're thinking. [laughter] It used to be when you had hair, you It used to be when you had hair, you It used to be when you had hair, you know, you could twirl it back here or know, you could twirl it back here or know, you could twirl it back here or you throw your pen. you throw your pen. you throw your pen. >> I still do it in memory >> I still do it in memory >> I still do it in memory >> where where you're I could tell you're >> where where you're I could tell you're >> where where you're I could tell you're thinking and and or you've made me think thinking and and or you've made me think thinking and and or you've made me think in a way that allows me to be self-aware in a way that allows me to be self-aware in a way that allows me to be self-aware in the space that I was blind. in the space that I was blind. in the space that I was blind. >> And those are the moments that I'll >> And those are the moments that I'll >> And those are the moments that I'll cherish because it changes me. cherish because it changes me. cherish because it changes me. Yeah. I mean, I think of our friendship, Yeah. I mean, I think of our friendship, Yeah. I mean, I think of our friendship, I think of that that proverb that says, I think of that that proverb that says, I think of that that proverb that says, you know, there there's a lot of people you know, there there's a lot of people you know, there there's a lot of people who will throw kisses at you, but you who will throw kisses at you, but you who will throw kisses at you, but you can trust the wounds of your brother. can trust the wounds of your brother. can trust the wounds of your brother. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Or the wounds of your friend. Yeah. >> Or the wounds of your friend. Yeah. >> Or the wounds of your friend. Yeah. >> And there have been times where you've >> And there have been times where you've >> And there have been times where you've said to me, "Hey, you look off." said to me, "Hey, you look off." said to me, "Hey, you look off." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Or you look like you're running too hard >> Or you look like you're running too hard >> Or you look like you're running too hard or or or >> you need to pause and just were very >> you need to pause and just were very >> you need to pause and just were very direct or times I've been direct to you direct or times I've been direct to you direct or times I've been direct to you or times where we've confessed or times where we've confessed or times where we've confessed >> sin or weakness or struggle >> sin or weakness or struggle >> sin or weakness or struggle >> or pointed out in the other person. >> or pointed out in the other person. >> or pointed out in the other person. >> Yeah. So, how do you get to the point >> Yeah. So, how do you get to the point >> Yeah. So, how do you get to the point where you have those type of where you have those type of where you have those type of conversations? conversations? conversations? >> Yeah. Yeah. Um gosh, >> Yeah. Yeah. Um gosh, >> Yeah. Yeah. Um gosh, >> and and you don't get defensive where >> and and you don't get defensive where >> and and you don't get defensive where you're like, you're like, you're like, >> "Yeah, >> "Yeah, >> "Yeah, >> you don't know me."

>> you don't know me." >> you don't know me." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We We all have >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We We all have >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We We all have different personalities. And so, like, different personalities. And so, like, different personalities. And so, like, I'm thinking about my personality type I'm thinking about my personality type I'm thinking about my personality type and yours and how for me it would take and yours and how for me it would take and yours and how for me it would take me much longer to work towards saying me much longer to work towards saying me much longer to work towards saying something that I think you need to hear something that I think you need to hear something that I think you need to hear >> and you you probably get there faster uh >> and you you probably get there faster uh >> and you you probably get there faster uh because of your personality type. And because of your personality type. And because of your personality type. And so, for for me, it's like, "Hey, let me so, for for me, it's like, "Hey, let me so, for for me, it's like, "Hey, let me let me think this through." often I'll let me think this through." often I'll let me think this through." often I'll say things but but they don't come out say things but but they don't come out say things but but they don't come out edited enough and so I could create a edited enough and so I could create a edited enough and so I could create a person like something in their heart person like something in their heart person like something in their heart that says hey that's actually not what's that says hey that's actually not what's that says hey that's actually not what's happening and so I'll create the defense happening and so I'll create the defense happening and so I'll create the defense mechanism and so for me I've got to mechanism and so for me I've got to mechanism and so for me I've got to think about what am I trying to say like think about what am I trying to say like think about what am I trying to say like how should I say that to this how do how should I say that to this how do how should I say that to this how do they need to hear it they need to hear it they need to hear it >> um how do I make sure that it's received >> um how do I make sure that it's received >> um how do I make sure that it's received uh to to the person that needs to hear uh to to the person that needs to hear uh to to the person that needs to hear this and so think through like before this and so think through like before this and so think through like before you say anything think about what you're you say anything think about what you're you say anything think about what you're trying to say you don't want to say trying to say you don't want to say trying to say you don't want to say something sloppily and create a wall in something sloppily and create a wall in something sloppily and create a wall in an individual an individual an individual And and the other piece is like just And and the other piece is like just And and the other piece is like just learning to step into it. You know, when learning to step into it. You know, when learning to step into it. You know, when you have somebody's trust, when you've you have somebody's trust, when you've you have somebody's trust, when you've have this many years of friendship, uh have this many years of friendship, uh have this many years of friendship, uh you should be able to It's almost like you should be able to It's almost like you should be able to It's almost like you'd never want to let your friend go you'd never want to let your friend go you'd never want to let your friend go into a circumstance blind.

into a circumstance blind. into a circumstance blind. >> Why would Why would you do that to them? >> Why would Why would you do that to them? >> Why would Why would you do that to them? That's like the most unloving thing that That's like the most unloving thing that That's like the most unloving thing that you could ever do. Speak up. Say you could ever do. Speak up. Say you could ever do. Speak up. Say something. Even if it comes out messy, something. Even if it comes out messy, something. Even if it comes out messy, at least they know they have a friend at least they know they have a friend at least they know they have a friend that's looking out for their enrichment. that's looking out for their enrichment. that's looking out for their enrichment. >> Yeah. My wife would often say to you >> Yeah. My wife would often say to you >> Yeah. My wife would often say to you like, you know, you don't need to say like, you know, you don't need to say like, you know, you don't need to say that to Ruben. like if I don't, who that to Ruben. like if I don't, who that to Ruben. like if I don't, who will? will? will? >> And it's sort of like that conversation >> And it's sort of like that conversation >> And it's sort of like that conversation like, you know, even after I teach or like, you know, even after I teach or like, you know, even after I teach or after I get up and talk, you're like, after I get up and talk, you're like, after I get up and talk, you're like, "Hey, that wasn't your best moment or "Hey, that wasn't your best moment or "Hey, that wasn't your best moment or and and because we have a long-term and and because we have a long-term and and because we have a long-term trust, I don't get defensive. I know trust, I don't get defensive. I know trust, I don't get defensive. I know you're for me. I know you want me to be you're for me. I know you want me to be you're for me. I know you want me to be better, and you see things I don't see." better, and you see things I don't see." better, and you see things I don't see." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so, it's that it's that ease of both >> And so, it's that it's that ease of both >> And so, it's that it's that ease of both encouragement and the ease of, "Hey, encouragement and the ease of, "Hey, encouragement and the ease of, "Hey, that looked a little off." Or, "Hey, that looked a little off." Or, "Hey, that looked a little off." Or, "Hey, that wasn't your best moment." Or, "Hey, that wasn't your best moment." Or, "Hey, that wasn't your best moment." Or, "Hey, if you did it this way, it could be so if you did it this way, it could be so if you did it this way, it could be so much better." Yeah. much better." Yeah. much better." Yeah. >> And I've never felt like why is he >> And I've never felt like why is he >> And I've never felt like why is he criticizing me so much criticizing me so much criticizing me so much >> because because of that level of trust >> because because of that level of trust >> because because of that level of trust and that that takes a lot of time and that that takes a lot of time and that that takes a lot of time >> takes a lot of >> takes a lot of >> takes a lot of >> All right. So I'm going to ask you a >> All right. So I'm going to ask you a >> All right. So I'm going to ask you a question I've never asked you before question I've never asked you before question I've never asked you before either. So in the 26 years of friendship either. So in the 26 years of friendship either. So in the 26 years of friendship have there ever been any like low points have there ever been any like low points have there ever been any like low points where you're like oh it's this is a hard where you're like oh it's this is a hard where you're like oh it's this is a hard season for us.

season for us. season for us. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And how did you work through that or how >> And how did you work through that or how >> And how did you work through that or how did the friendship survive those did the friendship survive those did the friendship survive those seasons? Because we work together. Yeah. seasons? Because we work together. Yeah. seasons? Because we work together. Yeah. And for most of your life, I've been And for most of your life, I've been And for most of your life, I've been your boss, which that's a whole another your boss, which that's a whole another your boss, which that's a whole another dynamic. dynamic. dynamic. >> Um, so there's some awkward moments in >> Um, so there's some awkward moments in >> Um, so there's some awkward moments in that. that. that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the in the textures >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the in the textures >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the in the textures or the or the chapters of the story of or the or the chapters of the story of or the or the chapters of the story of our friendship. Yeah. There's definitely our friendship. Yeah. There's definitely our friendship. Yeah. There's definitely been times. And it's typically around been times. And it's typically around been times. And it's typically around something that we have to do, not something that we have to do, not something that we have to do, not something that we are. And I think something that we are. And I think something that we are. And I think that's a good distinction to to note that's a good distinction to to note that's a good distinction to to note because um, you know, when in the because um, you know, when in the because um, you know, when in the choosing of friends, typically you're choosing of friends, typically you're choosing of friends, typically you're choosing them from who they from who choosing them from who they from who choosing them from who they from who they are. It's like a bit of their they are. It's like a bit of their they are. It's like a bit of their testimony, a bit of their character. And testimony, a bit of their character. And testimony, a bit of their character. And I think we we want each other's trust I think we we want each other's trust I think we we want each other's trust early on based upon a bit of the our early on based upon a bit of the our early on based upon a bit of the our story, our testimony, our character, our story, our testimony, our character, our story, our testimony, our character, our relationship to God. And that should be relationship to God. And that should be relationship to God. And that should be something that helps you to trust in the something that helps you to trust in the something that helps you to trust in the midst of those those dark scenes or more midst of those those dark scenes or more midst of those those dark scenes or more difficult scenes. Um I I remember a difficult scenes. Um I I remember a difficult scenes. Um I I remember a friend of mine taking me down on a on a friend of mine taking me down on a on a friend of mine taking me down on a on a on a buddy valve and on a scuba trip and on a buddy valve and on a scuba trip and on a buddy valve and on a scuba trip and I didn't have a scuba license at the I didn't have a scuba license at the I didn't have a scuba license at the time and and when he took me down there time and and when he took me down there time and and when he took me down there was a certain murkyness that you have to was a certain murkyness that you have to was a certain murkyness that you have to get past to get to the bottom of the get past to get to the bottom of the get past to get to the bottom of the ocean. And in those moments like I I I ocean. And in those moments like I I I ocean. And in those moments like I I I kind of see the same picture in kind of see the same picture in kind of see the same picture in friendship. In the midst of the friendship. In the midst of the friendship. In the midst of the murkiness, the the buddy valves of life murkiness, the the buddy valves of life murkiness, the the buddy valves of life should take you down. And that should take you down. And that should take you down. And that character, that integrity should help character, that integrity should help character, that integrity should help you to trust those murky times.

you to trust those murky times. you to trust those murky times. >> I would I would say this is that in the >> I would I would say this is that in the >> I would I would say this is that in the in the moments where I felt the most in the moments where I felt the most in the moments where I felt the most frustrated, um I I pushed for a frustrated, um I I pushed for a frustrated, um I I pushed for a conversation like, "Hey, can we talk conversation like, "Hey, can we talk conversation like, "Hey, can we talk about this? I want to I want to about this? I want to I want to about this? I want to I want to understand. Can you remind me?" Because understand. Can you remind me?" Because understand. Can you remind me?" Because there are times where in the midst of there are times where in the midst of there are times where in the midst of tense moments, Doug, I'll forget. like tense moments, Doug, I'll forget. like tense moments, Doug, I'll forget. like I'll maybe I choose to hear uh what I I'll maybe I choose to hear uh what I I'll maybe I choose to hear uh what I want to hear or I choose to listen to want to hear or I choose to listen to want to hear or I choose to listen to what seems the most appetizing to listen what seems the most appetizing to listen what seems the most appetizing to listen to, but you're missing parts of the to, but you're missing parts of the to, but you're missing parts of the story. And so for me, one of my story. And so for me, one of my story. And so for me, one of my tendencies is to say, "Hey, can we talk tendencies is to say, "Hey, can we talk tendencies is to say, "Hey, can we talk about this one more time? Remind me what about this one more time? Remind me what about this one more time? Remind me what why why do we choose that way? Help me why why do we choose that way? Help me why why do we choose that way? Help me understand because I'm I'm wrestling understand because I'm I'm wrestling understand because I'm I'm wrestling with this." And in those moments, you with this." And in those moments, you with this." And in those moments, you you've helped me to see through the you've helped me to see through the you've helped me to see through the murkiness down to the the beautiful murkiness down to the the beautiful murkiness down to the the beautiful ocean floor where there's life beyond ocean floor where there's life beyond ocean floor where there's life beyond the frustration, life beyond the the frustration, life beyond the the frustration, life beyond the confusion, where there's care and love confusion, where there's care and love confusion, where there's care and love and affection beyond a decision that and affection beyond a decision that and affection beyond a decision that needed to be made. needed to be made. needed to be made. >> Uh decisions in ministry or outside of >> Uh decisions in ministry or outside of >> Uh decisions in ministry or outside of ministry, decisions in business don't ministry, decisions in business don't ministry, decisions in business don't always reflect on friendship. always reflect on friendship. always reflect on friendship. >> Friendship will supersede so much of >> Friendship will supersede so much of >> Friendship will supersede so much of what we what we do today. Uh, I mean, what we what we do today. Uh, I mean, what we what we do today. Uh, I mean, you and I have both laughed and joked you and I have both laughed and joked you and I have both laughed and joked about, uh, growing old and rocking on, about, uh, growing old and rocking on, about, uh, growing old and rocking on, you know, Cracker Barrel, you know, you know, Cracker Barrel, you know, you know, Cracker Barrel, you know, rocking chair.

rocking chair. rocking chair. >> Push me around my wheelchair. [laughter] >> Push me around my wheelchair. [laughter] >> Push me around my wheelchair. [laughter] >> You might push me first. Who knows? >> You might push me first. Who knows? >> You might push me first. Who knows? >> But, but we've t we've joked about that >> But, but we've t we've joked about that >> But, but we've t we've joked about that because this this is great. But I think because this this is great. But I think because this this is great. But I think getting to be your friend is far greater getting to be your friend is far greater getting to be your friend is far greater than the some of the things that we get than the some of the things that we get than the some of the things that we get to do. to do. to do. >> Yeah, that's good. All right. So, so we >> Yeah, that's good. All right. So, so we >> Yeah, that's good. All right. So, so we talk about like moments that we get talk about like moments that we get talk about like moments that we get together, we celebrate, we go to a guys together, we celebrate, we go to a guys together, we celebrate, we go to a guys retreat with a few, you know, lifelong retreat with a few, you know, lifelong retreat with a few, you know, lifelong friends. These are 20, 30 year friends. These are 20, 30 year friends. These are 20, 30 year friendships. Uh, we celebrate moments, friendships. Uh, we celebrate moments, friendships. Uh, we celebrate moments, weddings, the birth of kids, all the weddings, the birth of kids, all the weddings, the birth of kids, all the things. But they're also dark moments. I things. But they're also dark moments. I things. But they're also dark moments. I think about like our group of friends. think about like our group of friends. think about like our group of friends. There's four or five of us. and and There's four or five of us. and and There's four or five of us. and and getting together, you know, after the getting together, you know, after the getting together, you know, after the death of of a child. Getting together death of of a child. Getting together death of of a child. Getting together after, you know, a son goes to to jail. after, you know, a son goes to to jail. after, you know, a son goes to to jail. Getting together after betrayals and the Getting together after betrayals and the Getting together after betrayals and the loss of a job or an injury and loss of a job or an injury and loss of a job or an injury and the fail the failing of a test, the the the fail the failing of a test, the the the fail the failing of a test, the the missing out of an opportunity. And to missing out of an opportunity. And to missing out of an opportunity. And to me, those are like some of the the best me, those are like some of the the best me, those are like some of the the best moments of friendship. like let's get moments of friendship. like let's get moments of friendship. like let's get together, let's go out to dinner together, let's go out to dinner together, let's go out to dinner >> instead of celebrating, >> instead of celebrating, >> instead of celebrating, >> we're going to we're going to weep >> we're going to we're going to weep >> we're going to we're going to weep together.

together. together. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we're going to just come together >> And we're going to just come together >> And we're going to just come together around a meal and say um in the good around a meal and say um in the good around a meal and say um in the good times and the bad times, this is why times and the bad times, this is why times and the bad times, this is why friendship is so important. Like I know friendship is so important. Like I know friendship is so important. Like I know and it's sort of like this corny saying, and it's sort of like this corny saying, and it's sort of like this corny saying, but I think it's so true that friendship but I think it's so true that friendship but I think it's so true that friendship multiplies our joy and divides our multiplies our joy and divides our multiplies our joy and divides our sorrow. Yeah. sorrow. Yeah. sorrow. Yeah. >> And when I first like that's so corny. >> And when I first like that's so corny. >> And when I first like that's so corny. It is it's so true. It is it's so true. It is it's so true. >> Yeah. that your joy is so much greater >> Yeah. that your joy is so much greater >> Yeah. that your joy is so much greater when you celebrate with friends and your when you celebrate with friends and your when you celebrate with friends and your sorrow is so much sorrow is so much sorrow is so much >> diffused throughout the group when you >> diffused throughout the group when you >> diffused throughout the group when you mourn together. mourn together. mourn together. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And even storytell about the sad parts. >> And even storytell about the sad parts. >> And even storytell about the sad parts. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So talk about that. >> So talk about that. >> So talk about that. >> Those are those are precious times. I >> Those are those are precious times. I >> Those are those are precious times. I mean I can I can recall in my mind mean I can I can recall in my mind mean I can I can recall in my mind distinctly moments where we showed up at distinctly moments where we showed up at distinctly moments where we showed up at each other's houses each other's houses each other's houses >> in those in the darkest of moments. And >> in those in the darkest of moments. And >> in those in the darkest of moments. And this the shocking thing for me because this the shocking thing for me because this the shocking thing for me because I'm a bit of a talker is that the uh I'm a bit of a talker is that the uh I'm a bit of a talker is that the uh there was so much said in the silence there was so much said in the silence there was so much said in the silence before the questions even asked. It was before the questions even asked. It was before the questions even asked. It was like we're we're just kind of sitting like we're we're just kind of sitting like we're we're just kind of sitting together and there's there's for me like together and there's there's for me like together and there's there's for me like awkward moments of silence where it's awkward moments of silence where it's awkward moments of silence where it's just we're we're just taking the moment just we're we're just taking the moment just we're we're just taking the moment in like wow we actually made it. we're in like wow we actually made it. we're in like wow we actually made it. we're all sitting here and and then the all sitting here and and then the all sitting here and and then the conversation begins and as I as I have conversation begins and as I as I have conversation begins and as I as I have the honor of sitting in that circle um the honor of sitting in that circle um the honor of sitting in that circle um you know somebody kind of kicking the you know somebody kind of kicking the you know somebody kind of kicking the first question out to be able to get first question out to be able to get first question out to be able to get that one person open that one person open that one person open >> to be able to talk about this very raw >> to be able to talk about this very raw >> to be able to talk about this very raw reality that they're walking through has reality that they're walking through has reality that they're walking through has been like a distinct honor for me you been like a distinct honor for me you been like a distinct honor for me you know in those in those moments where know in those in those moments where know in those in those moments where where somebody's able to open up it's where somebody's able to open up it's where somebody's able to open up it's like such a privilege like such a privilege like such a privilege >> to walk through somebody's pain and I I >> to walk through somebody's pain and I I >> to walk through somebody's pain and I I think showing up is like is just half think showing up is like is just half think showing up is like is just half the battle attle. You know, if you can the battle attle. You know, if you can the battle attle. You know, if you can remember to show up in your friend's

remember to show up in your friend's remember to show up in your friend's pain, my goodness, you know, you can pain, my goodness, you know, you can pain, my goodness, you know, you can change their reality and change their change their reality and change their change their reality and change their today just because you're present. It today just because you're present. It today just because you're present. It could it could be just playing some some could it could be just playing some some could it could be just playing some some great music together. It could be trying great music together. It could be trying great music together. It could be trying to have a conversation together or just to have a conversation together or just to have a conversation together or just literally bringing a meal or or writing literally bringing a meal or or writing literally bringing a meal or or writing a card that completely changes the a card that completely changes the a card that completely changes the reality of their day. reality of their day. reality of their day. >> So, what if you have a friend who's >> So, what if you have a friend who's >> So, what if you have a friend who's like, "Oh, no. I'm fine. I'm good." Like like, "Oh, no. I'm fine. I'm good." Like like, "Oh, no. I'm fine. I'm good." Like they go through a difficult event like they go through a difficult event like they go through a difficult event like I'm good. I don't need food. I don't I'm good. I don't need food. I don't I'm good. I don't need food. I don't need I'm good. Yeah. need I'm good. Yeah. need I'm good. Yeah. >> Do you just >> Do you just >> Do you just >> not show up? Like how what do you do >> not show up? Like how what do you do >> not show up? Like how what do you do there? there? there? >> I think much like what you mentioned >> I think much like what you mentioned >> I think much like what you mentioned with Suzanne, it's like if if you don't, with Suzanne, it's like if if you don't, with Suzanne, it's like if if you don't, then who will? then who will? then who will? >> Um and I think that that >> Um and I think that that >> Um and I think that that >> So you show up and you said, "I know you >> So you show up and you said, "I know you >> So you show up and you said, "I know you told no one to come over, but I'm here told no one to come over, but I'm here told no one to come over, but I'm here anyway because I'm your friend. So open anyway because I'm your friend. So open anyway because I'm your friend. So open the door." the door." the door." >> Yeah. Well, I've watched I've watched >> Yeah. Well, I've watched I've watched >> Yeah. Well, I've watched I've watched this group Yeah. literally I've watched this group Yeah. literally I've watched this group Yeah. literally I've watched this group uh just leave hot food on the this group uh just leave hot food on the this group uh just leave hot food on the on the doorstep. Not even knock on the on the doorstep. Not even knock on the on the doorstep. Not even knock on the door. It's just like a certain door. It's just like a certain door. It's just like a certain fingerprint. fingerprint. fingerprint. >> I think everyone in our our group is >> I think everyone in our our group is >> I think everyone in our our group is basically like, "I'm good. You don't basically like, "I'm good. You don't basically like, "I'm good. You don't need to show up. Anyway, there's a need to show up. Anyway, there's a need to show up. Anyway, there's a couple of you guys in that group. couple of you guys in that group. couple of you guys in that group. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> I'm a little different. I can admit >> I'm a little different. I can admit >> I'm a little different. I can admit like, man, I I I have some needs, you like, man, I I I have some needs, you like, man, I I I have some needs, you know, but but the reality is I've know, but but the reality is I've know, but but the reality is I've watched you guys show up for each other watched you guys show up for each other watched you guys show up for each other and in so doing, I've allowed that same and in so doing, I've allowed that same and in so doing, I've allowed that same thing to happen in my life. Like, thing to happen in my life. Like, thing to happen in my life. Like, receive the meal, receive the meal, receive the meal, >> receive the invite and and and um I >> receive the invite and and and um I >> receive the invite and and and um I think I'm always shocked uh at the think I'm always shocked uh at the think I'm always shocked uh at the response. Sometimes it's it's uh it's response. Sometimes it's it's uh it's response. Sometimes it's it's uh it's just leaving the meal there. Sometimes just leaving the meal there. Sometimes just leaving the meal there. Sometimes it evolves into a a conversation that is it evolves into a a conversation that is it evolves into a a conversation that is life literally life-changing where where life literally life-changing where where life literally life-changing where where I'm cared for by the person who who I'm cared for by the person who who I'm cared for by the person who who needs the care or or vice versa. there's needs the care or or vice versa. there's needs the care or or vice versa. there's a beautiful sharing in the in the midst

a beautiful sharing in the in the midst a beautiful sharing in the in the midst of pain uh that through good friendship of pain uh that through good friendship of pain uh that through good friendship um happens and so yeah you show up yeah um happens and so yeah you show up yeah um happens and so yeah you show up yeah you you make an effort and maybe it's you you make an effort and maybe it's you you make an effort and maybe it's not always banging your way through the not always banging your way through the not always banging your way through the door but it could be from the the simple door but it could be from the the simple door but it could be from the the simple coffee that you bring or coffee that you bring or coffee that you bring or >> yeah you get past the first resistance >> yeah you get past the first resistance >> yeah you get past the first resistance of I don't need help of I don't need help of I don't need help >> and you're showing up says you actually >> and you're showing up says you actually >> and you're showing up says you actually do need help and I love you enough to do need help and I love you enough to do need help and I love you enough to just to show up and just to show up and just to show up and >> even if I stay for five minutes. >> even if I stay for five minutes. >> even if I stay for five minutes. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So all right I want to I want to switch >> So all right I want to I want to switch >> So all right I want to I want to switch topics for a second. So you you you you topics for a second. So you you you you topics for a second. So you you you you were raised in a sort of Ger German, not were raised in a sort of Ger German, not were raised in a sort of Ger German, not I'm a German in a Jamaican sort of I'm a German in a Jamaican sort of I'm a German in a Jamaican sort of Indian culture. I was raised in more of Indian culture. I was raised in more of Indian culture. I was raised in more of a German kind of Midwestern culture. a German kind of Midwestern culture. a German kind of Midwestern culture. These cultures are very different. These cultures are very different. These cultures are very different. >> So what's the value of having friends >> So what's the value of having friends >> So what's the value of having friends that are not like you? So you've got a that are not like you? So you've got a that are not like you? So you've got a lot of friends and I've got a lot of lot of friends and I've got a lot of lot of friends and I've got a lot of friends that just aren't like us. They friends that just aren't like us. They friends that just aren't like us. They go to different churches. They come from go to different churches. They come from go to different churches. They come from different cultural backgrounds. They different cultural backgrounds. They different cultural backgrounds. They come from complete different experiences come from complete different experiences come from complete different experiences to see the world. to see the world. to see the world. >> What's the value in having friends that >> What's the value in having friends that >> What's the value in having friends that aren't like you? Yeah, I think having aren't like you? Yeah, I think having aren't like you? Yeah, I think having friends that aren't like you helps helps friends that aren't like you helps helps friends that aren't like you helps helps you to see the world from all the you to see the world from all the you to see the world from all the angles. You know, I I I have my certain angles. You know, I I I have my certain angles. You know, I I I have my certain lenses I see the world through. You have lenses I see the world through. You have lenses I see the world through. You have yours. And I really think our our yours. And I really think our our yours. And I really think our our friendship circle has almost plays the friendship circle has almost plays the friendship circle has almost plays the opposites. We have guys from all these opposites. We have guys from all these opposites. We have guys from all these different angles that see the world. And different angles that see the world. And different angles that see the world. And when you hear from them, when you watch when you hear from them, when you watch when you hear from them, when you watch them, when you kind of follow their them, when you kind of follow their them, when you kind of follow their life, you're able to see the world in a life, you're able to see the world in a life, you're able to see the world in a in a balanced perspective. Because if in a balanced perspective. Because if in a balanced perspective. Because if you if if we're to be honest, like I'm you if if we're to be honest, like I'm you if if we're to be honest, like I'm going to ask uh somebody uh a question going to ask uh somebody uh a question going to ask uh somebody uh a question uh from a person who I want to hear that uh from a person who I want to hear that uh from a person who I want to hear that certain answer from. It's like I can I

certain answer from. It's like I can I certain answer from. It's like I can I can choose the friend I want to uh ask can choose the friend I want to uh ask can choose the friend I want to uh ask the question to or I can allow the group the question to or I can allow the group the question to or I can allow the group to answer. When you allow the group to to answer. When you allow the group to to answer. When you allow the group to answer, you just get a balanced holistic answer, you just get a balanced holistic answer, you just get a balanced holistic sort of view instead of just what you sort of view instead of just what you sort of view instead of just what you maybe want to hear in that particular maybe want to hear in that particular maybe want to hear in that particular moment. And so there's a there's a high moment. And so there's a there's a high moment. And so there's a there's a high value in choosing friends that are value in choosing friends that are value in choosing friends that are different from you. I think it I think different from you. I think it I think different from you. I think it I think it resembles the gospel. I think there's it resembles the gospel. I think there's it resembles the gospel. I think there's a beautiful gospel imprint on on you a beautiful gospel imprint on on you a beautiful gospel imprint on on you pursuing people that are that are pursuing people that are that are pursuing people that are that are different from you and going deep with different from you and going deep with different from you and going deep with individuals like that. individuals like that. individuals like that. >> Yeah. You sort of see that in the way >> Yeah. You sort of see that in the way >> Yeah. You sort of see that in the way that Jesus picked the disciples. What a that Jesus picked the disciples. What a that Jesus picked the disciples. What a >> a different group of people and putting >> a different group of people and putting >> a different group of people and putting them together force them to have these them together force them to have these them together force them to have these type of conversations so they could type of conversations so they could type of conversations so they could grow. grow. grow. >> So um as a parent, >> So um as a parent, >> So um as a parent, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> you know, one of the things that you >> you know, one of the things that you >> you know, one of the things that you want for your kids is that your kids want for your kids is that your kids want for your kids is that your kids develop healthy friendships develop healthy friendships develop healthy friendships >> and healthy relationships. So, so how do >> and healthy relationships. So, so how do >> and healthy relationships. So, so how do you teach your kids how to pick the you teach your kids how to pick the you teach your kids how to pick the right friends or how to have or maintain right friends or how to have or maintain right friends or how to have or maintain good friendships? good friendships? good friendships? >> Yeah, there there's I mean the research >> Yeah, there there's I mean the research >> Yeah, there there's I mean the research shows that our kids are probably at the shows that our kids are probably at the shows that our kids are probably at the greatest risk. At least kids in in my in greatest risk. At least kids in in my in greatest risk. At least kids in in my in my kids age range. I have young adults my kids age range. I have young adults my kids age range. I have young adults in my home and and teenagers and a in my home and and teenagers and a in my home and and teenagers and a little eight-year-old. But there's a little eight-year-old. But there's a little eight-year-old. But there's a friendship deficit amongst kids in that friendship deficit amongst kids in that friendship deficit amongst kids in that age, research shows us. And so what when age, research shows us. And so what when age, research shows us. And so what when when you when you look at that and when you when you look at that and when you when you look at that and consider that there's not a lot of consider that there's not a lot of consider that there's not a lot of material out there to help teach them, material out there to help teach them, material out there to help teach them, they're really relying upon us. their they're really relying upon us. their they're really relying upon us. their their school systems, culture around us.

their school systems, culture around us. their school systems, culture around us. And so I was thinking about this uh And so I was thinking about this uh And so I was thinking about this uh beautiful phrase that we hear Paul uh beautiful phrase that we hear Paul uh beautiful phrase that we hear Paul uh share all throughout the the epistles share all throughout the the epistles share all throughout the the epistles where he says it like follow me or or where he says it like follow me or or where he says it like follow me or or watch my life. Uh follow me as I follow watch my life. Uh follow me as I follow watch my life. Uh follow me as I follow Christ. There should be a certain Christ. There should be a certain Christ. There should be a certain mentoring or a certain image making that mentoring or a certain image making that mentoring or a certain image making that happens through the way that we live out happens through the way that we live out happens through the way that we live out our friendships. And that sort of our friendships. And that sort of our friendships. And that sort of mentoring helps them to see how how do mentoring helps them to see how how do mentoring helps them to see how how do they how do they develop friendships? they how do they develop friendships? they how do they develop friendships? How do they mirror the same thing that How do they mirror the same thing that How do they mirror the same thing that they see their dad do? And so every time they see their dad do? And so every time they see their dad do? And so every time I come back from like a guy's night or I come back from like a guy's night or I come back from like a guy's night or every time I come back from a group every time I come back from a group every time I come back from a group date. Um I love telling stories to my date. Um I love telling stories to my date. Um I love telling stories to my kids. Good. kids. Good. kids. Good. >> Hey, this is what we did tonight. Dad, >> Hey, this is what we did tonight. Dad, >> Hey, this is what we did tonight. Dad, you did that. Oh my goodness. Here's you did that. Oh my goodness. Here's you did that. Oh my goodness. Here's what we talked about tonight. And not what we talked about tonight. And not what we talked about tonight. And not because I want to brag or boast, but because I want to brag or boast, but because I want to brag or boast, but because I want to show them what it because I want to show them what it because I want to show them what it means to go deep with a group of friends means to go deep with a group of friends means to go deep with a group of friends for 20 plus years. I want them to see for 20 plus years. I want them to see for 20 plus years. I want them to see our life as an adventure so that they our life as an adventure so that they our life as an adventure so that they live out an adventure. I've got two live out an adventure. I've got two live out an adventure. I've got two sons, a son who's married and a son sons, a son who's married and a son sons, a son who's married and a son who's about to be married. And I'm who's about to be married. And I'm who's about to be married. And I'm grateful because I see them doing their grateful because I see them doing their grateful because I see them doing their part to establish friendship circles part to establish friendship circles part to establish friendship circles like they see in in their dad's life.

like they see in in their dad's life. like they see in in their dad's life. And there has got to be a way that they And there has got to be a way that they And there has got to be a way that they see it and hear it from us. If if it's see it and hear it from us. If if it's see it and hear it from us. If if it's just all talk like, "Hey, you got to just all talk like, "Hey, you got to just all talk like, "Hey, you got to have friends. You got to have friends." have friends. You got to have friends." have friends. You got to have friends." Well, dad, what about your life? Well, dad, what about your life? Well, dad, what about your life? >> We've got to practice what we preach. >> We've got to practice what we preach. >> We've got to practice what we preach. >> Yeah. It's good because a lot of times >> Yeah. It's good because a lot of times >> Yeah. It's good because a lot of times I'll I'll push my my sons toward you. I'll I'll push my my sons toward you. I'll I'll push my my sons toward you. Hey, go talk to Uncle Ruben. Hey, go talk to Uncle Ruben. Hey, go talk to Uncle Ruben. >> And you'll push your sons toward me. >> And you'll push your sons toward me. >> And you'll push your sons toward me. Hey, hey, go talk to Doug. So, there's Hey, hey, go talk to Doug. So, there's Hey, hey, go talk to Doug. So, there's something really cool about something really cool about something really cool about >> long-term friendship in family over >> long-term friendship in family over >> long-term friendship in family over time. That's why time. That's why time. That's why >> I love the idea of what is your vision >> I love the idea of what is your vision >> I love the idea of what is your vision of friendship for your life that will it of friendship for your life that will it of friendship for your life that will it will surpass your vocational your will surpass your vocational your will surpass your vocational your working years. It'll surpass, you know, working years. It'll surpass, you know, working years. It'll surpass, you know, sometimes even geography. We've had a sometimes even geography. We've had a sometimes even geography. We've had a good friend who's been here and moved good friend who's been here and moved good friend who's been here and moved away and came back and the whole time we away and came back and the whole time we away and came back and the whole time we stayed connected. stayed connected. stayed connected. >> Um, and so there's something powerful >> Um, and so there's something powerful >> Um, and so there's something powerful about that. about that. about that. >> Absolutely. So, uh, any any other >> Absolutely. So, uh, any any other >> Absolutely. So, uh, any any other thoughts you have for people who are thoughts you have for people who are thoughts you have for people who are like, "How do I find friends? How do I like, "How do I find friends? How do I like, "How do I find friends? How do I keep friends? How do we work through keep friends? How do we work through keep friends? How do we work through friendship?" Anything else that's on friendship?" Anything else that's on friendship?" Anything else that's on your mind or heart about friendship? your mind or heart about friendship? your mind or heart about friendship? >> Yeah, a couple things. Um, the first one >> Yeah, a couple things. Um, the first one >> Yeah, a couple things. Um, the first one is is u, you know, in today's society, is is u, you know, in today's society, is is u, you know, in today's society, we're we're always listening to what to we're we're always listening to what to we're we're always listening to what to invest in, like where's the best invest in, like where's the best invest in, like where's the best investment strategy? And, um, I I would investment strategy? And, um, I I would investment strategy? And, um, I I would say invest in friendship. you know, when say invest in friendship. you know, when say invest in friendship. you know, when I when I think about where I want to put I when I think about where I want to put I when I think about where I want to put my my resources, um how much resource am my my resources, um how much resource am my my resources, um how much resource am I putting behind the friends that I call I putting behind the friends that I call I putting behind the friends that I call myself friends with. And so I'm I'm myself friends with. And so I'm I'm myself friends with. And so I'm I'm often looking for spaces in my life to often looking for spaces in my life to often looking for spaces in my life to invest time, talent, treasure into the invest time, talent, treasure into the invest time, talent, treasure into the people that I'm the closest with so that people that I'm the closest with so that people that I'm the closest with so that I can see them built up and invest.

I can see them built up and invest. I can see them built up and invest. Invest in your friends. Uh, I would also Invest in your friends. Uh, I would also Invest in your friends. Uh, I would also say like we're so quick to cancel people say like we're so quick to cancel people say like we're so quick to cancel people in in culture. And so if if a friend in in culture. And so if if a friend in in culture. And so if if a friend says one bad thing, it's easy to say, says one bad thing, it's easy to say, says one bad thing, it's easy to say, "Oh man, forget about him." Like I I "Oh man, forget about him." Like I I "Oh man, forget about him." Like I I don't trust him anymore. And go go go don't trust him anymore. And go go go don't trust him anymore. And go go go the long haul with your friends. Don't the long haul with your friends. Don't the long haul with your friends. Don't think about your friendships as like a think about your friendships as like a think about your friendships as like a sprint. Think about friendships as a as sprint. Think about friendships as a as sprint. Think about friendships as a as a marathon. And look for spaces to a marathon. And look for spaces to a marathon. And look for spaces to extend grace where your human friends extend grace where your human friends extend grace where your human friends are going to fail you and you can repair are going to fail you and you can repair are going to fail you and you can repair and watch them grow throughout the and watch them grow throughout the and watch them grow throughout the course of a lifetime. course of a lifetime. course of a lifetime. >> Let me just let me interject. I think, >> Let me just let me interject. I think, >> Let me just let me interject. I think, you know, in in in family, you don't you know, in in in family, you don't you know, in in in family, you don't have a choice. They're your family. You have a choice. They're your family. You have a choice. They're your family. You can't just like cancel your You can, but can't just like cancel your You can, but can't just like cancel your You can, but it's harder to it's harder to it's harder to >> and and even in marriage, there's a >> and and even in marriage, there's a >> and and even in marriage, there's a level of covenant and commitment that level of covenant and commitment that level of covenant and commitment that keeps you through the hard times. keeps you through the hard times. keeps you through the hard times. >> But friends are much more easy to >> But friends are much more easy to >> But friends are much more easy to discard. discard. discard. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so often I'll watch people discard >> And so often I'll watch people discard >> And so often I'll watch people discard friendships where they don't meet friendships where they don't meet friendships where they don't meet expectation or, hey, they they they talk expectation or, hey, they they they talk expectation or, hey, they they they talk too much and I don't talk enough or I too much and I don't talk enough or I too much and I don't talk enough or I share but they don't share, they don't share but they don't share, they don't share but they don't share, they don't reciprocate. And and so it it's sort of reciprocate. And and so it it's sort of reciprocate. And and so it it's sort of like, let me just move on. like, let me just move on. like, let me just move on. >> Yeah. And when you do that over time, >> Yeah. And when you do that over time, >> Yeah. And when you do that over time, you end up having your latest friendship you end up having your latest friendship you end up having your latest friendship is like a year old.

is like a year old. is like a year old. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think one of the most, you know, >> And I think one of the most, you know, >> And I think one of the most, you know, telling signs of if you're doing this is telling signs of if you're doing this is telling signs of if you're doing this is just answering the question, how long is just answering the question, how long is just answering the question, how long is your longest friendship? your longest friendship? your longest friendship? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And do you still talk to that person, >> And do you still talk to that person, >> And do you still talk to that person, engage with that person? That's a sign engage with that person? That's a sign engage with that person? That's a sign of how you're processing. Am I just of how you're processing. Am I just of how you're processing. Am I just cancelling people and moving on looking cancelling people and moving on looking cancelling people and moving on looking for the perfect friend for the perfect friend for the perfect friend >> or is there something in me I'm not >> or is there something in me I'm not >> or is there something in me I'm not processing as I just go from thing processing as I just go from thing processing as I just go from thing person to person to person? Yeah. person to person to person? Yeah. person to person to person? Yeah. There's something about talking to like There's something about talking to like There's something about talking to like an old friend uh or a friend that you've an old friend uh or a friend that you've an old friend uh or a friend that you've had for a long time that's very telling had for a long time that's very telling had for a long time that's very telling about yourself and just listening like about yourself and just listening like about yourself and just listening like sitting and having a conversation. We sitting and having a conversation. We sitting and having a conversation. We were um studying as a family Psalm 68 were um studying as a family Psalm 68 were um studying as a family Psalm 68 this week uh and just reflecting on this week uh and just reflecting on this week uh and just reflecting on family devotions and in the middle of family devotions and in the middle of family devotions and in the middle of that chapter it says that God places the that chapter it says that God places the that chapter it says that God places the lonely in families. And I was I was lonely in families. And I was I was lonely in families. And I was I was thinking with my kids about about like thinking with my kids about about like thinking with my kids about about like the antidote to loneliness is family the antidote to loneliness is family the antidote to loneliness is family >> and how often we we take the wrong >> and how often we we take the wrong >> and how often we we take the wrong antidotes and apply it to loneliness and antidotes and apply it to loneliness and antidotes and apply it to loneliness and how much it can create like a a deep how much it can create like a a deep how much it can create like a a deep lostness in us when we when we don't lostness in us when we when we don't lostness in us when we when we don't apply what God shows us to to apply apply what God shows us to to apply apply what God shows us to to apply there. And I know we talked about this there. And I know we talked about this there. And I know we talked about this in the beginning but just ruminating on in the beginning but just ruminating on in the beginning but just ruminating on that last thought you had like like you that last thought you had like like you that last thought you had like like you use the antidote that God has given us.

use the antidote that God has given us. use the antidote that God has given us. It's family. And it's not just talking It's family. And it's not just talking It's family. And it's not just talking about biological. It's the It's the about biological. It's the It's the about biological. It's the It's the whole picture, the the extended family, whole picture, the the extended family, whole picture, the the extended family, the the non-biological family. It's the the non-biological family. It's the the non-biological family. It's God's antidote to the problem that we God's antidote to the problem that we God's antidote to the problem that we all are faced with. And friendship can all are faced with. And friendship can all are faced with. And friendship can be such a rich resource from the hand of be such a rich resource from the hand of be such a rich resource from the hand of God. God. God. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's that the idea to be what >> Yeah. It's that the idea to be what >> Yeah. It's that the idea to be what every human being needs is to be fully every human being needs is to be fully every human being needs is to be fully loved and fully known. loved and fully known. loved and fully known. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And if you're fully loved >> And if you're fully loved >> And if you're fully loved >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> but you're not fully known, you feel >> but you're not fully known, you feel >> but you're not fully known, you feel hidden or isolated. hidden or isolated. hidden or isolated. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And if you're if you're known and not >> And if you're if you're known and not >> And if you're if you're known and not loved, you feel rejected. But to to have loved, you feel rejected. But to to have loved, you feel rejected. But to to have both of those things like I am fully both of those things like I am fully both of those things like I am fully loved, this person knows everything loved, this person knows everything loved, this person knows everything about me and they love me anyway. about me and they love me anyway. about me and they love me anyway. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is is the deepest need of the human >> Is is the deepest need of the human >> Is is the deepest need of the human soul. soul. soul. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And you know what what do you say to people you know what what do you say to people you know what what do you say to people who say, who say, who say, >> "Well, God's the only person I need. >> "Well, God's the only person I need. >> "Well, God's the only person I need. He's the only person I trust. My He's the only person I trust. My He's the only person I trust. My relationship with him. I can't trust relationship with him. I can't trust relationship with him. I can't trust anybody else." How do you how do you anybody else." How do you how do you anybody else." How do you how do you respond to that? respond to that? respond to that? >> Oh gosh. I mean like I I think about I >> Oh gosh. I mean like I I think about I >> Oh gosh. I mean like I I think about I think about how many secrets or how many think about how many secrets or how many think about how many secrets or how many moments that person has been had their moments that person has been had their moments that person has been had their trust violated because that doesn't come trust violated because that doesn't come trust violated because that doesn't come from just anywhere. It comes from a very from just anywhere. It comes from a very from just anywhere. It comes from a very broken hurt person and and I if there's broken hurt person and and I if there's broken hurt person and and I if there's one thing if somebody's watching today one thing if somebody's watching today one thing if somebody's watching today and we're thinking like what what would and we're thinking like what what would and we're thinking like what what would one person need to hear is that you can one person need to hear is that you can one person need to hear is that you can trust again trust again trust again >> like not every leader will be like that >> like not every leader will be like that >> like not every leader will be like that leader or that friend or that person leader or that friend or that person leader or that friend or that person that violated your trust. You can you that violated your trust. You can you that violated your trust. You can you can try again. The only person that's can try again. The only person that's can try again. The only person that's it's hurting by you not trying is you.

it's hurting by you not trying is you. it's hurting by you not trying is you. >> Yeah. No, I think Yeah, I think that's >> Yeah. No, I think Yeah, I think that's >> Yeah. No, I think Yeah, I think that's that's so right. I think there's a that's so right. I think there's a that's so right. I think there's a tendency when we get hurt to tendency when we get hurt to tendency when we get hurt to overspiritualize our relationship with overspiritualize our relationship with overspiritualize our relationship with God. God. God. >> Um and even God doesn't say um hey, it's >> Um and even God doesn't say um hey, it's >> Um and even God doesn't say um hey, it's just me. In the same way, you know, we just me. In the same way, you know, we just me. In the same way, you know, we have a God-shaped hole inside of us. We have a God-shaped hole inside of us. We have a God-shaped hole inside of us. We have a a need for friends. We have a have a a need for friends. We have a have a a need for friends. We have a friendship hole in us. We are created to friendship hole in us. We are created to friendship hole in us. We are created to be connected to God and other people. be connected to God and other people. be connected to God and other people. >> Yeah. And I think those two things are >> Yeah. And I think those two things are >> Yeah. And I think those two things are are spiritually connected to each other. are spiritually connected to each other. are spiritually connected to each other. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So that you know our human friendships >> So that you know our human friendships >> So that you know our human friendships are often a reflection of our friendship are often a reflection of our friendship are often a reflection of our friendship with God. with God. with God. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and those two things serve as a >> And and those two things serve as a >> And and those two things serve as a great mirror. Yeah. great mirror. Yeah. great mirror. Yeah. >> And so some something I think about. >> And so some something I think about. >> And so some something I think about. >> Yeah. Yeah. I often find myself thinking >> Yeah. Yeah. I often find myself thinking >> Yeah. Yeah. I often find myself thinking about that that as an output in my life. about that that as an output in my life. about that that as an output in my life. It's like from from that place of of It's like from from that place of of It's like from from that place of of allowing friendships to meet this this allowing friendships to meet this this allowing friendships to meet this this need that God's created in us, we we need that God's created in us, we we need that God's created in us, we we find ourselves filled with passion, you find ourselves filled with passion, you find ourselves filled with passion, you know, because it's when you discover who know, because it's when you discover who know, because it's when you discover who you are and that there's people around you are and that there's people around you are and that there's people around that trust and that it can help hold you that trust and that it can help hold you that trust and that it can help hold you up. You can go towards and go after the up. You can go towards and go after the up. You can go towards and go after the things that God has uh has in front of things that God has uh has in front of things that God has uh has in front of you. But when there's secrets, and I you. But when there's secrets, and I you. But when there's secrets, and I just think about like the the man who's just think about like the the man who's just think about like the the man who's watching us have this conversation that watching us have this conversation that watching us have this conversation that still has secrets in their life, things still has secrets in their life, things still has secrets in their life, things that nobody else knows, it could create that nobody else knows, it could create that nobody else knows, it could create such an insecurity. And when you are such an insecurity. And when you are such an insecurity. And when you are riddled with insecurities, you don't riddled with insecurities, you don't riddled with insecurities, you don't lead well. You're not going to love lead well. You're not going to love lead well. You're not going to love well. You're not going to relate and and well. You're not going to relate and and well. You're not going to relate and and and do friendship well. And so to find a and do friendship well. And so to find a and do friendship well. And so to find a person where you can take those secrets person where you can take those secrets person where you can take those secrets and say, "Hey, I went through this." You

and say, "Hey, I went through this." You and say, "Hey, I went through this." You know, did you ever go through this? like know, did you ever go through this? like know, did you ever go through this? like like how did you handle this part of like how did you handle this part of like how did you handle this part of your life? You're going to you're going your life? You're going to you're going your life? You're going to you're going to realize that that your secrets are to realize that that your secrets are to realize that that your secrets are actually something that somebody else actually something that somebody else actually something that somebody else went through went through went through >> and you could find wisdom >> and you could find wisdom >> and you could find wisdom >> and acceptance. >> and acceptance. >> and acceptance. >> Yeah. I mean, as as leaders in ministry, >> Yeah. I mean, as as leaders in ministry, >> Yeah. I mean, as as leaders in ministry, as pastors, probably every week, as pastors, probably every week, as pastors, probably every week, >> someone's life that we know blows up. >> someone's life that we know blows up. >> someone's life that we know blows up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because of a secret. >> Because of a secret. >> Because of a secret. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I often wonder like was there anyone >> And I often wonder like was there anyone >> And I often wonder like was there anyone in their life in their life in their life >> that they invited in? Because every >> that they invited in? Because every >> that they invited in? Because every secret makes you vulnerable. every every secret makes you vulnerable. every every secret makes you vulnerable. every every time I can't tell someone this, you just time I can't tell someone this, you just time I can't tell someone this, you just go deeper into yourself and you become go deeper into yourself and you become go deeper into yourself and you become more and more and more vulnerable. more and more and more vulnerable. more and more and more vulnerable. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so, yeah, I would encourage >> And so, yeah, I would encourage >> And so, yeah, I would encourage >> all of our listeners to think about how >> all of our listeners to think about how >> all of our listeners to think about how do I take that next step? So, do I take that next step? So, do I take that next step? So, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> any final thoughts? >> any final thoughts? >> any final thoughts? >> Yeah, any secret or blind spots are like >> Yeah, any secret or blind spots are like >> Yeah, any secret or blind spots are like double weaknesses, double weaknesses, double weaknesses, >> you know? It's one thing to have a >> you know? It's one thing to have a >> you know? It's one thing to have a weakness, but have a double weakness, weakness, but have a double weakness, weakness, but have a double weakness, you know, and so pray like put it before you know, and so pray like put it before you know, and so pray like put it before the Lord. Like I remember I remember the Lord. Like I remember I remember the Lord. Like I remember I remember thinking one day, God, would you take thinking one day, God, would you take thinking one day, God, would you take this friendship, this relationship with this friendship, this relationship with this friendship, this relationship with Doug and would you do with it what you Doug and would you do with it what you Doug and would you do with it what you want early on and and I'm I'm grateful want early on and and I'm I'm grateful want early on and and I'm I'm grateful because I believe the Lord gave us an because I believe the Lord gave us an because I believe the Lord gave us an opportunity to be friends. I believe he opportunity to be friends. I believe he opportunity to be friends. I believe he put it before us and and it's been such put it before us and and it's been such put it before us and and it's been such a great ride. So don't forget to pray a great ride. So don't forget to pray a great ride. So don't forget to pray and ask the Lord to open the right doors and ask the Lord to open the right doors and ask the Lord to open the right doors and then go for it and watch him bless and then go for it and watch him bless and then go for it and watch him bless you.

you. you. >> That's great. >> That's great. >> That's great. >> Thanks for having the conversation. >> Thanks for having the conversation. >> Thanks for having the conversation. Grateful for you, my brother. Grateful for you, my brother. Grateful for you, my brother. >> Love you, bro. >> Love you, bro. >> Love you, bro. Thanks so much for tuning in to this Thanks so much for tuning in to this Thanks so much for tuning in to this conversation about friendship. Before conversation about friendship. Before conversation about friendship. Before you go, be sure to check out the show you go, be sure to check out the show you go, be sure to check out the show notes [music] because we have more notes [music] because we have more notes [music] because we have more resources available for you on this resources available for you on this resources available for you on this topic as well as a teaching from our topic as well as a teaching from our topic as well as a teaching from our weekend series [music] all about Jesus weekend series [music] all about Jesus weekend series [music] all about Jesus and relationships. And we're going to be and relationships. And we're going to be and relationships. And we're going to be having more conversations [music] about having more conversations [music] about having more conversations [music] about different relationships in our lives. So different relationships in our lives. So different relationships in our lives. So don't miss out. Stay tuned.